AM21 and 2009 analog/digital switch

[peters4n6]

Maybe a dumb question here, but...

In some locations, OTA channels are going to revert back to their VHF slot at the time of the Feb 2009 switch. Might there be a lag in getting the "new" OTA channel on the AM21 since the channels are directory-based and not scanned for?

As an aside, I thought the networks would continue to broadcast on UHF for those of us who have UHF-only antennas. Now some of us will need to get new antennas to pick up VHF. (I wonder if a UHF antenna would pick up VHF if I have line-of-sight to the antenna 10 miles away?)

Eric

[cygnusloop]

Might there be a lag in getting the "new" OTA channel on the AM21 since the channels are directory-based and not scanned for?

Eric

Here in Denver, we have two of our major networks that will be reverting back to their VHF-Hi frequencies at the switchover. I am very curious to see if DIRECTV/Tribune will be on top of this or not. The cynic in me expects a trainwreck. But, only time will tell....

[jwd45244]

Maybe a dumb question here, but...

In some locations, OTA channels are going to revert back to their VHF slot at the time of the Feb 2009 switch. Might there be a lag in getting the "new" OTA channel on the AM21 since the channels are directory-based and not scanned for?



We won't know since it is over 9 months away. It is the responsibility of the station to make sure that the guide data is correct.

[RobertE]

Maybe a dumb question here, but...

In some locations, OTA channels are going to revert back to their VHF slot at the time of the Feb 2009 switch. Might there be a lag in getting the "new" OTA channel on the AM21 since the channels are directory-based and not scanned for?

As an aside, I thought the networks would continue to broadcast on UHF for those of us who have UHF-only antennas. Now some of us will need to get new antennas to pick up VHF. (I wonder if a UHF antenna would pick up VHF if I have line-of-sight to the antenna 10 miles away?)

Eric

I fully expect there to be pockets that will go dark for a variety of reasons.

1) Stations not giving Tribune the proper assignments at the the proper time.
2) Stations screwing up their PSIP data, thus screwing up those that have scanning TVs. Keep in mind that unless your TV does some magical auto scan, pretty much everyone will need to rescan for channels after the "switch"
3) Tribune mangling some of the data (they should have a lot to process when the switch is flipped)
4) Something getting borked at DirecTvs end.
5) Murphy.

Oh yes, some areas will lose some channels. The big question will be how many and for how long.

[tonyd79]

And, another big question will be if we need to do anything or not.

OTA channels have been added/changed/deleted without use intervention and I would hope this is the case but we may have to rerun OTA setup on that date.

We will see. May be interesting to get the test case results from DirecTV customers in NC.

[Carl Spock]

As I've had this explained to me by a broadcast engineer, this is the individual station's responsibility. I have this happening to me with both my NBC and CBS affiliates. Next February, they will go back down to their VHF frequencies. The NBC engineer said the switch will be in his station's subcode next year and the tuner will follow directions in the subcode. All I do is put in the the digital channel for the station, 13-1. Currently, my HR20 looks for the broadcast at UHF 39. Next February, when I punch in 13-1, it will be told to look for the broadcast at VHF 13.

I agree, we'll see if this all works.

[texasbrit]

As I've had this explained to me by a broadcast engineer, this is the individual station's responsibility. I have this happening to me with both my NBC and CBS affiliates. Next February, they will go back down to their VHF frequencies. The NBC engineer said the switch will be in his station's subcode next year and the tuner will follow directions in the subcode. All I do is put in the the digital channel for the station, 13-1. Currently, my HR20 looks for the broadcast at UHF 39. Next February, when I punch in 13-1, it will be told to look for the broadcast at VHF 13.

I agree, we'll see if this all works.

His advice is only relevant for a tuner like the one in the H20 receiver that uses the PSIP code in the digital signal, not for the HR20 and the AM21 that use a database (from Tribune). When you select a channel like 13.1 on the HR20, it looks in its database to find which "real" channel the station is on. Today it is channel 39. If the database does not get changed immediately on the digital changeover, the HR20/AM21 will still be looking for the station on "real" channel 39 even though it has moved back to "real" channel 13. So for everything to work correctly, DirecTV will have to change the data in the database for all the stations that change frequencies. I am sure there are going to be many problems!!

[Kansas Zephyr]

All I do is put in the the digital channel for the station, 13-1. Currently, my HR20 looks for the broadcast at UHF 39. Next February, when I punch in 13-1, it will be told to look for the broadcast at VHF 13.

Only if D*/Tribune/Your local station are all on the ball, since the HR20 uses a provided database. Let's hope so! ;-)

But, for a HDTV, it doesn't work that way.

A HDTV, or any other STB, that scans, looks for an RF signal first. It finds a signal on channel 39, it then decodes the PSIP from the broadcast datastream and sees that the virtual channel is 13-1.

So next time you select 13-1, it knows to tune to RF channel 39.

If RF channel 39 is moved to RF channel 13, and you punch in 13-1, that same HDTV will see nothing, since it is tuned to RF channel 39. There is no RF signal present to tell your tuner that it is now on RF 13. So, you need to rescan for signals. Then it will sense the RF on channel 13, and decode the PSIP as 13-1.

There will be more than one household, on Feb 18, that will punch in 13-1, and get nothing, and not know what to do from there. I hope the local TV station's switchboards are staffed.

(Sorry, brit...I started my post, and took a call. So +1 to you.)

[rabit ears]

OK, so let me get this straight.

If a local channel (let's say Ch 5 VHF) is currently broadcasting its HD signal on Ch 29 UHF, that as of the conversion it will broadcast on Ch 5 VHF?

I just spent a large amount of money for an antenna system to compensate for all the problems with the D* local HD signal. I get all the UHF channels clear as a bell (81 to 92 on every channel from 14 - 69) right now. My VHF channel reception is pretty bad, so it sounds like I've got a $300 coat hanger on my roof after Feb 17, 2009 - is that correct?

Thanks for the info. I contacted the service company that installed the antenna and they sent an email stating that if I do not receive all broadcasting HD signals in my area after Feb 17, they will, at their option, either correct the system at no charge or provide a full refund less the $50 installation fee.

[peters4n6]

Maybe a dumb question here, but...

In some locations, OTA channels are going to revert back to their VHF slot at the time of the Feb 2009 switch. Might there be a lag in getting the "new" OTA channel on the AM21 since the channels are directory-based and not scanned for?

As an aside, I thought the networks would continue to broadcast on UHF for those of us who have UHF-only antennas. Now some of us will need to get new antennas to pick up VHF. (I wonder if a UHF antenna would pick up VHF if I have line-of-sight to the antenna 10 miles away?)

Eric

Wow...it looks like the only thing dumb about my question...was that I thought it was dumb:lol:

[Kansas Zephyr]

OK, so let me get this straight.

If a local channel (let's say Ch 5 VHF) is currently broadcasting its HD signal on Ch 29 UHF, that as of the conversion it will broadcast on Ch 5 VHF?

I just spent a large amount of money for an antenna system to compensate for all the problems with the D* local HD signal. I get all the UHF channels clear as a bell (81 to 92 on every channel from 14 - 69) right now. My VHF channel reception is pretty bad, so it sounds like I've got a $300 coat hanger on my roof after Feb 17, 2009 - is that correct?
Maybe...not all stations are returning to their original analog VHF channel slots after the analog cut-off. Some will stay on UHF.

I don't have the link in front of me. But, you can search this forum for the link to the FCC's document listing all station's current and, after cut-off, final assignments.

I've been preaching, since day one, to be wary of installing a UHF only antenna. You may need VHF after the cut-off. The good news is that most UHF antennas can do a decent job with VHF hi (7-13).

[tonyd79]

If you go to antennaweb.org, they have many (if not all) of the post-transition frequencies.

In the SF Bay Area, it looks like 7.1 is moving from 24 to 7. The others that are moving are moving by one channel but staying on UHF.

If you are pulling in Sacremento, it looks like two stations are going to be VHF (can't tell what they are now), 9.1 and 10.1.

Where I live, Baltimore/Washington, A couple are moving back to VHF (7 and 9 from DC and 11 and 13 from Baltimore).

[Kansas Zephyr]

Now that I think about it, tvfool.com has the current "post cut-off" info, too.

[Carl Spock]

Thanks for the correct info, texasbrit and Kansas Zephyr. I may email the engineers for my two switching stations a copy of this thread and see what they have to say.

This will get frelled up for sure.

[tonyd79]

For sure.

Networks had better plan a week of reruns that week!

[inkahauts]

For sure.

Networks had better plan a week of reruns that week!

Feb is sweeps month... So there is a HUGE incentive for them to have no lag time... It could be disastrous for their ad revenue if they don't get it right...

[Kansas Zephyr]

Feb is sweeps month... So there is a HUGE incentive for them to have no lag time... It could be disastrous for their ad revenue if they don't get it right...
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6556505.html

It will not be next year. ;)

[cwdonahue]

OK, so let me get this straight.

If a local channel (let's say Ch 5 VHF) is currently broadcasting its HD signal on Ch 29 UHF, that as of the conversion it will broadcast on Ch 5 VHF?

I just spent a large amount of money for an antenna system to compensate for all the problems with the D* local HD signal. I get all the UHF channels clear as a bell (81 to 92 on every channel from 14 - 69) right now. My VHF channel reception is pretty bad, so it sounds like I've got a $300 coat hanger on my roof after Feb 17, 2009 - is that correct?

You might be able to improve your coat hanger with an antenna amplifier. Then you'll have a powered coat hanger! I own a powered coat hanger. Had to do that because CBS in Chicago was crazy enough to put their digital channel on VHF 3. As if things weren't bad enough being on VHF 2 for their NTSC signal!

[bobnielsen]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stations which are switching back to their old frequencies keep the UHF signal alive until they have verified that everything is working.

Some of those who will be keeping their current digital frequencies will be replacing their old VHF antennas with new UHF ones. The temporary antennas are often down the tower a bit with less coverage and changing should improve things a bit.

[tonyd79]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stations which are switching back to their old frequencies keep the UHF signal alive until they have verified that everything is working.


Not sure they will be allowed. This nasty FCC thing.

Anyway, at least one here in Baltimore can't because another station is taking over one of the frequencies.

[peters4n6]

The good news is that most UHF antennas can do a decent job with VHF hi (7-13).

Really? That's good news. And since it'll be digital, one would know right away...either you have the picture or you don't, right?

[Dan Burgess]

Had to do that because CBS in Chicago was crazy enough to put their digital channel on VHF 3. As if things weren't bad enough being on VHF 2 for their NTSC signal!WBBM was assigned channel 3 for their ATSC signal by the FCC. CBS sure didn't pick it. You can read more here (http://www.satelliteguys.us/hd-over-air-ota/103303-ota-digital-tv-where-cbs.html).

The real fun was in 1999 when they powered up WBBM-DT 3 and zapped out several hundred thousand cable boxes within a six mile radius of the Hancock Building that were hard-wired to channel 3.

I put a monster antenna on the roof in April 2001 to pick up their fledgling signal; it will be much better when they are on channel 12 after the transition.

[Kansas Zephyr]

Really? That's good news. And since it'll be digital, one would know right away...either you have the picture or you don't, right?
Better UHF antennas have enough bandwidth to grab VHF Hi, too.

Granted, it will not do as well as a VHF antenna. But, it shouldn't be completely out of the antenna's Q, as VHF Low will be.

[hasan]

Maybe...not all stations are returning to their original analog VHF channel slots after the analog cut-off. Some will stay on UHF.

I don't have the link in front of me. But, you can search this forum for the link to the FCC's document listing all station's current and, after cut-off, final assignments.

I've been preaching, since day one, to be wary of installing a UHF only antenna. You may need VHF after the cut-off. The good news is that most UHF antennas can do a decent job with VHF hi (7-13).

...and that has been good preaching.

We have at least two locals going from UHF back to VHF.

There ARE going to be problems. Count on it. I look forward to a real mess, considering how hard it was to get the channels to show up at all, then mislabeled, then missing again....all on the HR20-700.

It wasn't until I worked with the local affiliate engineer that it got straightened out and he was very clear about who screwed up, how and when. In my specific case it was Tribune.

I bet it happens again...any takers?:)