Grounding when dish far from house

[Rivergoat]

I'm helping a friend set up a dish at his house. Best location for the dish is about 100' from the house on a wood post. The dish can be grounded to a close by bar driven into the ground (assuming it's deep enough); but from what I'm reading it would be prudent to run a messenger wire the full 100' to the house's main ground, such as water pipe, etc, eh?

BTW, we did notice some cold water pipes at the nearby garage/barn structure. Can we use this, or does it have to be right at the house itself?

Tips on grounding when the dish is located this far from physical house appreciated.

TIA

[jdspencer]

IMO, the sooner you can ground the dish, the better.
However, it depends on local electrical codes.

[joe diamond]

All is supposed to be "bonded" to the same single ground point. IF the cable runs are longer than the ground wire you could expect problems. At 100' a lightning strike will for sure "burn open" before damaging anything. Regardless, at the point of entry (POE) there should be a ground block and the main ground rod nearby ( less than the distance of the interior cable runs also).

Grounding threads abound. Pick one.

Joe

[houskamp]

few things I would do..
1. use steel pole for mounting.. wood can warp..
2. install standard ground rod at dish..
3. use a heavy (10 awg or better) wire from ground at dish to ground at entrance to house..

[Tiger62]

3. use a heavy (10 awg or better) wire from ground at dish to ground at entrance to house..

NEC regulations specify #6 wire to bond the dish ground rod to the service entrance ground.

[hdtvfan0001]

Of course you realize that if the Dish is mounted into the ground on a 3' or longer metal post in the ground...its actually already "grounded"....but no harm in a true ground wire to satisfy those local building codes watchers! :D

[BattleZone]

few things I would do..
1. use steel pole for mounting.. wood can warp..


Wood will ALMOST CERTAINLY WARP and you'll be having to readjust the dish several times a year.

DO NOT MOUNT ON A WOOD POST! Use a steel post, lots of concrete, and a deep hole.

[David MacLeod]

Of course you realize that if the Dish is mounted into the ground on a 3' or longer metal post in the ground...its actually already "grounded"....but no harm in a true ground wire to satisfy those local building codes watchers! :D

think we're going to agree to disagree here. quickrete does not conduct very well. after concrete is poured you generally have a 2 inch circle of metal in the ground approx 1 inch. the rebar cross section some people put in may also contact at the ends, but its limited. also, unless pole is scrubbed there is reduced contact at pole to head mount due to oils and corrosion prevention.
due to frost line movement that 2 inch circle can lose contact with the ground possibly leaving you with no contact.

[hdtvfan0001]

think we're going to agree to disagree here. quickrete does not conduct very well. after concrete is poured you generally have a 2 inch circle of metal in the ground approx 1 inch. the rebar cross section some people put in may also contact at the ends, but its limited. also, unless pole is scrubbed there is reduced contact at pole to head mount due to oils and corrosion prevention.
due to frost line movement that 2 inch circle can lose contact with the ground possibly leaving you with no contact.
That's OK. Mine had a 6 gauge wire run down the pipe core into the ground as well.

I can assure you that if that 2" pipe placed 4' into the ground takes a direct hit, it will indeed be grounded, and much more able to conduct the jolt into the earth than an 8 gauge wire....

The again....I'm not anxious to "test" it. :D

In any case - I recommend both.

[David MacLeod]

lol, direct hit changes things drastically doesn't it :)
was 20 feet from a tree that took one awhile back. talk about getting knocked around :)
then to add insult to injury I had to put the fire out on the tree.

[hdtvfan0001]

lol, direct hit changes things drastically doesn't it :)
was 20 feet from a tree that took one awhile back. talk about getting knocked around :)
then to add insult to injury I had to put the fire out on the tree.
Not a pretty picture... :eek2:

We had some major tornados and lightening in our area a week ago too...numerous house took direct hits, and one major lightening strike took our a transformer about 2 miles away. The power surge from that took out numerous garage door openers, TV's, and other electronic devices within a 5 miles radius.....unless......they were on surge/UPS protection devices.

It only takes one of these events to get an appreciation for dedicated power, quality surge protection, and UPS backup. The only thing I got nailed on was my alarm system (under warranty), which now has surge protection as well. Everything else was protected problem free. Some neighbors had 3, 4, or 5 things that got fried - one had 2 TV's get toasted - dead to the world. :nono:

On the other hand, none needed to water down a flaming tree! :D

[Rivergoat]

Well, I'll see what happens to the post over time, it is a treated 4x4 8' fence post, strong stuff, but will it warp? Time will tell. I was at my friend's house today and got the dish up. The receiver didn't do its beeping during alignment, but we got it to 90% signal. After a reset of the receiver (at first it was not seeing tuner #2 until the reset), then the alignment beeps were available. Maybe we should have done the reset sooner?

I've seen some pretty flaky installations that end up working fine, so we're hoping this one lasts as it is anything but flaky. Heck my own roof mount recently came dislodged and I found the prior tenant (I'm just a renter) had used poor mounting techniques on the roof. I fixed that up and am more able to withstand strong winds where I live (and they can get strong).

If today's install causes any signal loss due to dish vibration, we talked about adding guy wires to the post for stability. Later down the line if the post did warp, we can unbolt it and see about a metal installation.

Thanks for the tips on the grounding. We'll ground to the close rod to the dish, and ground the POE to a nearby water pipe; we don't get a lot of lightning here, but best to be safe. Hope that will work. At any rate the reception on the install today looks just fine.

[K4SMX]

Well, I'll see what happens to the post over time, it is a treated 4x4 8' fence post, strong stuff, but will it warp? Time will tell......
That may last a little longer in Los Gatos than it would in Florida, but it will warp, and the Ka alignment is so critical, that you will be touching up the alignment periodically. At least make sure you start out with your 103(c) signals mostly all in the 90's. :)

[RobertE]

Well, I'll see what happens to the post over time, it is a treated 4x4 8' fence post, strong stuff, but will it warp? Time will tell. I was at my friend's house today and got the dish up. The receiver didn't do its beeping during alignment, but we got it to 90% signal. After a reset of the receiver (at first it was not seeing tuner #2 until the reset), then the alignment beeps were available. Maybe we should have done the reset sooner?

I've seen some pretty flaky installations that end up working fine, so we're hoping this one lasts as it is anything but flaky. Heck my own roof mount recently came dislodged and I found the prior tenant (I'm just a renter) had used poor mounting techniques on the roof. I fixed that up and am more able to withstand strong winds where I live (and they can get strong).

If today's install causes any signal loss due to dish vibration, we talked about adding guy wires to the post for stability. Later down the line if the post did warp, we can unbolt it and see about a metal installation.

Thanks for the tips on the grounding. We'll ground to the close rod to the dish, and ground the POE to a nearby water pipe; we don't get a lot of lightning here, but best to be safe. Hope that will work. At any rate the reception on the install today looks just fine.

Speaking from experience, it's not a matter of if the post will warp/twist, its a matter of when.

[NCMAT]

I've had a wooden 4x4 post for over 8 years. For the first 7 it held a 3-LNB dish and for the past year a slimline. I've had absolutely no problems with warping.

[David MacLeod]

I wonder how much geographical location would affect this. up to -40 real temp in winter and 90 in summer take its toll on wood posts up here.

[Rivergoat]

Everything on my install coming together. The signals, btw, are averaging 90-99%, so it's nice and clean. A ground rod was installed near the dish, using #6 wire from the dish to the rod. The house will get #6 from the coax entry point to a nearby cold water pipe.

I passed along the info on thoughts of using the wood post to my friend whose dish this is. We'll all keep watch on signal strength and decide course of action in the future as required.

Heck, my own dish on the top of a mountain has had rain fade and snow fade! Even here we got snow in the winter, enough to cover the dish. With a flat roof it's easy for me to get access to the dish. I did not think I'd ever need to brush snow off my dish in this terrain! I also recently had some signal loss that I pinpointed to bad bolting techniques by the person that originally put in the mast (I found a mast with no dish, and added my own dish to that mast). Once I corrected the mounting things came back on line nicely.

[erict]

Everything on my install coming together. The signals, btw, are averaging 90-99%, so it's nice and clean. A ground rod was installed near the dish, using #6 wire from the dish to the rod. The house will get #6 from the coax entry point to a nearby cold water pipe.

I passed along the info on thoughts of using the wood post to my friend whose dish this is. We'll all keep watch on signal strength and decide course of action in the future as required.

Heck, my own dish on the top of a mountain has had rain fade and snow fade! Even here we got snow in the winter, enough to cover the dish. With a flat roof it's easy for me to get access to the dish. I did not think I'd ever need to brush snow off my dish in this terrain! I also recently had some signal loss that I pinpointed to bad bolting techniques by the person that originally put in the mast (I found a mast with no dish, and added my own dish to that mast). Once I corrected the mounting things came back on line nicely.


Well you could have used a #8 or #10 from your dish to ground rod, but you must bond your ground rod at the dish to your service ground with a #6 wire.

[Rivergoat]

Well you could have used a #8 or #10 from your dish to ground rod, but you must bond your ground rod at the dish to your service ground with a #6 wire.

So you're saying another run through the whole distance with #6? Previous posts indicated that a run of 100'+ would burn out if a strike ever went that distance. No big deal adding another wire, but do the other gurus agree it will be beneficial? To recap, the dish is on a small hill about 100' from the service entrance to the house; that spot is grounded to the nearest water pipe, and the dish itself is grounded very close to its mount with a ground rod via #6

[RobertE]

So you're saying another run through the whole distance with #6? Previous posts indicated that a run of 100'+ would burn out if a strike ever went that distance. No big deal adding another wire, but do the other gurus agree it will be beneficial? To recap, the dish is on a small hill about 100' from the service entrance to the house; that spot is grounded to the nearest water pipe, and the dish itself is grounded very close to its mount with a ground rod via #6

It's still going to get turned to slag with a direct strike anyway.

IMHO, there isn't any point in driving a ground rod at the dish, because as others have stated, you need to bond that ground rod, with the house ground anyway.

[K4SMX]

...... To recap, the dish is on a small hill about 100' from the service entrance to the house; that spot is grounded to the nearest water pipe, and the dish itself is grounded very close to its mount with a ground rod via #6
That would worry me a bit, especially the "dish is on a small hill" part. It would be nice to at least minimize damage to your equipment in the event of a direct strike 100' away. Certainly a single 8' ground rod at the dish wouldn't dissipate all the energy of a direct or nearby strike, and you could expect quite a wallop to travel down that #6, should you install it, as well as your coax. Then at the other end you've got a CWP connection, maybe a good grounding point, maybe not..

You're not gonna want to hear this, but to keep direct or nearby inductively coupled strikes from traveling completely down this 100' path you'd want to use 1/2" copper strap bonded to an 8' ground rod every 15' all the way to the house. Obviously, you're not going to do that. But I think I would at least drive another ground rod at the spot where the coax enters your house at the grounding block, retaining the bond to the CWP ground as well. I would, however, make sure that CWP is actually bonded to the service ground and, if not, run a separate piece of #6 to the service ground.

Ground rods are cheap. If it were me, and you really do have a dish sitting out in the open on a small hill, I'd put two more in at the dish making a triangular pattern 18"-24" on a side. That has a huge advantage over a single ground rod in that it electrically represents the same grounding capacity as a triangular metal box 8' long. There's almost no limit to time and materials you can spend dealing with lightning. But with the idea being to keep direct lightning strikes at the dish and surges on the coax caused by inductively coupled nearby strikes away from your house, 2 more ground rods at the dish and one at the grounding block would be a substantial improvement. Of course, the NEC does call for that #6 between the dish and the service ground.

I never rely on any of the above for equipment protection. I use quick disconnects on my satellite cables and turn off and unplug the UPS from the AC during severe lightning storms, completely isolating the A/V equipment. I do feel somewhat more comfortable than I otherwise would, however, should an unexpected storm arrive while I'm temporarily away from home. It is a fearsome force of nature. :)

[Rivergoat]

Interesting information, to say the least! Well, for this site it's a rental and I'm not sure every 15' is very likely. When I did help drive the ground rod near the dish, the soil had a lot of rock, and it was a chore getting it driven deep enough. Right near the house, I'm not sure if another ground rod will be possible, but I will have my friend get back to me. The one advantage, this isn't the mid-west, nor even the Sacramento valley where I've seen major lightning storms. There are not many electricial storms in this area, but that doesn't mean we're going to turn our backs on the possibilities. I've seen some installations where people did it themselves and used no grounding whatsoever.

At my own residence we had lost a neutral line in the storms in January. No lightning, but some outlets soared to 200+ volts! A few things took a hit, but the DVR was spared the jolt. It seems there's always something out to get you!

[David MacLeod]

could use bare #6 buried 2+ feet along its length too.
Primestar used to allow that for 75+ foot runs. still a pain but when a rod only goes 3 feet due to ledge it was accepted.

[K4SMX]

...... The one advantage, this isn't the mid-west, nor even the Sacramento valley where I've seen major lightning storms. There are not many electricial storms in this area.....
Very true. In contrast, Florida is the lightning capital of the region and of the country. The only place worse than Florida in general is the Tampa Bay area in particular. We had an unoccupied house in a nearby neighborhood struck by lightning and burn to the ground last summer. I have lightning rods all over the roof, a pole-mounted dish at ground level, and still managed to lose a 50' Royal Palm tree 15' from the house to a direct hit. Scary stuff.....:eek2:

[MONSTERMAN]

With the price of copper these days (100' would be costly), I'd just sink an 8' grounding rod close to dish found at local LOWES or HOMEDEPOT and use 10AWG wire to dish and grounding block.

[Rivergoat]

I agree about the price of copper; the #6 jacketed was .79/ft at my local store, but they had very little, so I had to use a Home Depot, where it was .89/ft. Doesn't take Einstein to figure out how much 100' of this would be.

Sinking a rod 8' would be nice, but would then take an auger of some sort to drill the ground, as this spot has a very rocky base.

Let me slightly clarify this "small hill" spot, too, for those expressing concern. It is not the only thing there, all out in the open. In fact nearby trees are much taller, and an adjacent old barn sits there, and has a metal roof.. We're not trying to cut corners on the grounding part, but just trying to do the best we can.

Wow, can't even imagine Florida with all the strikes! I recall living in the Sacramento valley, and one night the entire sky was lit with hundreds of bolts. Awesome and scary at the same time! I heard at least one strike the ground about a block away.

[MONSTERMAN]

I agree about the price of copper; the #6 jacketed was .79/ft at my local store, but they had very little, so I had to use a Home Depot, where it was .89/ft. Doesn't take Einstein to figure out how much 100' of this would be.

Sinking a rod 8' would be nice, but would then take an auger of some sort to drill


LOL. I'm in the same boat as you with trying to sink my 8' grounding rod in this rocky granite soil. I sledge hammered the crap out of the rod in many spots, only to ever get the rod at the most 4' deep. I can't figure out how to get this thing buried, or even "where" to find an auger that long.:nono:

[K4SMX]

I had your problem at another location. I bought two 8' ground rods, sawed them in half and made a box configuration 2' on a side 4' deep. That was solid granite.

When I lived in Atlanta, we had a lot of pieces of some type of sandy rock in the soil that would stop your sledgehammer. I had a friend who worked at a tool rental shop. He welded a piece of 1 1/2" pipe on the end of an old bit for a Bosch electric jack hammer. With that tool I was able to drive 3 ground rods 24' into the ground at the base of a 110' tower. These were 8' rods, threaded on each end with brass interconnecting fittings, courtesy of the local power company truck. The way they explained it, they'd rather give them to me than throw them in the woods, because when they bring the truck back to the shop, the company assumed they were out there in the ground somewhere. They were!

BTW, that tower was on top of a ridge. It was never struck by lightning in the 15 years it was there.