Service within 90 day backcharges to installers..

[avmaster]

Any other installers out there feeling the pain of this?

The latest round of backcharges, if it wasn't phone lines, now its this!!

I agree if I make a LEGIT mistake on a job, and something fails down the road, I should be at the very least made aware so I do not make the same mistake down the road.

Problem is, there are too many variables in play, we know nothing of what REALLY happened with the installation or equipment, all we see is a $43 backcharge on our paychecks and a 'close out code' with a very generalized statement of what the tech did on this service call.

IMO, its just another cash generating machine for direct tv..... make some extra profit at our expense, don't give us any leg to stand on to fight for legitamacy.

I know for a fact that I am easily the most anal retentive / perfectionist installer in my entire company, I came from doing home audio/video, car audio/video, where quality is simply a must. Never had one issue, and here I am doing work that is far from rocket science and they are hitting all of us with these stupid poorly explained charges.

Just curious how many others out there getting hit as hard as we are here in AZ?

I am certainly going to start looking for an AFS to work for in the area.

[kevinm34232]

What's an AFS?

[hogon41]

Charge backs come from a wide range of sources. D* seems to think that if a tech has to go back to a customers location someone has to pay for that rollback. It doesnt matter what the cause is.

Ive been hit with charge backs with absurd resolution codes.

Customer education: a tech went the customers location and explained how to use his system, which can include anything related to his tv, vcr, dvd, etc.

Replace receiver: tech went out and replaced a bad receiver. It doesnt matter if the receiver crapped out or if it was a refurb or the customer hit it with a hammer.

The bottom line is D* will charge the last tech for the service call, regardless of the reason.The only thing that will change is the amount of the chargeback from hsp to hsp

[Mertzen]

All part of the game. Better not try to fight it. At one point we got our own TR's back at least we didn't get the charge back. At least now I don't have to worry about them anymore.

[David MacLeod]

What's an AFS?
I see it mentioned along with HSP's but don't know the definition either.

[RobertE]

AFS = Alternate Fulfillment Service. They come in when the HSP either can't/won't perform up to specs, when the area is a mess after a natural disaster (think hurricanes, etc), or when D* gets nervous over labor issues (unionization). Those are just a few examples.

Sometimes, they are worse than the shop they are replacing quality wise. In & out, collected the check then vanish.

[PANCHITO]

It's not DIRECTV , is the HSP and sub companies, I used to be a professional installer (clean installs, excellent customer education, Phone line to each box) until they start charging me bogus charge backs, I start doing sloppy work just to do more install and make ends meets, I didn't like what I was becoming and QUIT DIRECTV completed, NOW a proud ATT U-VERSE installer.

[Sirshagg]

I've read many posts talking about issues similiar to this and I find it absolutely amazing that people are willing to do these installs. I certaily wouldn't put up with the orking conditions I've seen described by many people here.

[DtvSlave]

People want their sat. doesn't matter Directv or Dish Network, oh and they want the free install!

Just like any other job these companies know that if one person quits 3 more apply, it is a never ending job pool, and when people stop applying they will just hire illegals to do the jobs just like the farming industry, the composite industry, the meat industry and many others because they will work cheap and hey the government won't bo anything about it.

[joe diamond]

What frosts my ass is the recent DTV ads on DTV!

Work for Directv

You go to their web site and are directed to the local HSP. Why would anybody work for an HSP. The back charges the long hold times to close work, the dishonest practices the lies the stupid policies.....

Take your skills and walk away.

Joe

[avmaster]

Yup, its all stupidity, I quit a week ago and starting with a dishnet sub friday, no backcharges and more money.

Here is another kicker, they are now doing on site QC's, otherwise you put up a KA/KU dish and you have to WAIT for someone to get there to check your work before you can leave. To me thats just insulting, I have failed maybe 2 QC's in the past 6 months.

Another thing that started as of about a month ago, any failed QC you get backcharged $25. The thing is, instead of trying to PASS your install, they actually try to FAIL it, mainly because it generates money for the COMPANY. For example, if I use a self drilling screw for a ground on a pole mount, that FAILS because its not a GREEN screw!! Even though in every way the self tapper is a BETTER ground that the green one, they just want to be dicks about it. I am not talking about hack job installs here with wires hanging off the house all over the place, but clean installs that will NOT have issues within the next 20 years or so.


Backcharge us up the ass, piss off all the good people that have been there for years and do our jobs right, and cry when you have a buch of hackjobs working for them because all the good people left for someone who treats their techs better.

Smart move there Aerosat!!! I give them a year, maybe. They will either get their asses sued by every tech out there or just get cut by direct tv for shady business practices.

Everyone I know is fed up with it. I am so glad I am done!

[carl6]

... the good people that have been there for years and do our jobs right, ...

While I agree with much of what you have said, one important point to remember is that you have not done your job right unless you have done it the way your employer has told you to do it. If that means using a green screw, then that means using green screw.

Carl

[Dwrecked]

Yep it's getting to be [Redacted]. HSPs are really starting to turn the screws on the techs lately. Between them and D*, this company is going down in flames. Its only on the backs of the few good techs out there that this "business model" is even sustainable. When the good ones finally get fed up and leave though this company is finished.It appears they won't be happy until every tech is either a masochistic failure at life or a non-english speaking illegal. It is not at that point yet, but If things continue on ther present course I have a feeling it will be very very soon. They will reap what they sow.

[joe diamond]

Yep it's getting to be [Redacted]. HSPs are really starting to turn the screws on the techs lately. Between them and D*, this company is going down in flames. Its only on the backs of the few good techs out there that this "business model" is even sustainable. When the good ones finally get fed up and leave though this company is finished.It appears they won't be happy until every tech is either a masochistic failure at life or a non-english speaking illegal. It is not at that point yet, but If things continue on ther present course I have a feeling it will be very very soon. They will reap what they sow.

Dwrecked,

It is worse than you think!

I'll send you a copy of my new novel (soon to be a blockbuster film) called "Cable Guy Goes Satellite." It is about an astronaut who goes into orbit when the cable industry was just getting started. He comes back to earth many years later and finds all the CATV systems are out of business. So he goes to talk to the satellite TV folks. When he hears their policy for disposable techs he builds rockets in his back yard and shoots down the commercial TV sats.

His dad was a cable guy and liked to look out the back window and watch the flashes.

Coming soon to a drive-in near you.

Joe

[joe diamond]

Yup, its all stupidity, I quit a week ago and starting with a dishnet sub friday, no backcharges and more money.

Here is another kicker, they are now doing on site QC's, otherwise you put up a KA/KU dish and you have to WAIT for someone to get there to check your work before you can leave. To me thats just insulting, I have failed maybe 2 QC's in the past 6 months.

Another thing that started as of about a month ago, any failed QC you get backcharged $25. The thing is, instead of trying to PASS your install, they actually try to FAIL it, mainly because it generates money for the COMPANY. For example, if I use a self drilling screw for a ground on a pole mount, that FAILS because its not a GREEN screw!! Even though in every way the self tapper is a BETTER ground that the green one, they just want to be dicks about it. I am not talking about hack job installs here with wires hanging off the house all over the place, but clean installs that will NOT have issues within the next 20 years or so.


Backcharge us up the ass, piss off all the good people that have been there for years and do our jobs right, and cry when you have a buch of hackjobs working for them because all the good people left for someone who treats their techs better.

Smart move there Aerosat!!! I give them a year, maybe. They will either get their asses sued by every tech out there or just get cut by direct tv for shady business practices.

Everyone I know is fed up with it. I am so glad I am done!

AVmaster,

I was once shown a picture of a dual push through bushing I had used on a job. It was not the style DTV approved of. They wanted me to check my truck and make sure all those bushings were gone.

Then the owner's wife wanted to speak to me about the difference between my mileage reports and the Google routes she had been printing. Then there was the issue of the magnetic sign I failed to use.

These were stupid but honest people who had just left the military and knew how to follow orders.

Their check was late and light. They are no longer in business.

As the ship sinks do you line up the deck chairs or see about a life boat?

Joe

[joe diamond]

While I agree with much of what you have said, one important point to remember is that you have not done your job right unless you have done it the way your employer has told you to do it. If that means using a green screw, then that means using green screw.

Carl
Carl,

Even the green screws?

We swing between "GET IT DONE" and DO IT RIGHT."

That could be expressed "OVERBOOK" and "QC."

If you continue to beat the horse he will continue to work until he dies. Then no amount of beating will produce results. If the other horses see what is going on they will not be as helpful as the last dead one.

Joe

[RobertE]

Carl,

Even the green screws?

We swing between "GET IT DONE" and DO IT RIGHT."

That could be expressed "OVERBOOK" and "QC."

If you continue to beat the horse he will continue to work until he dies. Then no amount of beating will produce results. If the other horses see what is going on they will not be as helpful as the last dead one.

Joe

Us too.

When times are busy + "Get the Job in"
When it slows down just a little bit = "Try and do it by the book"

:nono2:

If it comes down to losing an install by not being able to do it by the book, guess what wins? Perfect example, look at any medium rise apt building with dishes hanging off the balconey. Ever wonder where they are grounded too? Mei either, because there not. :lol:

[avmaster]

Us too.

When times are busy + "Get the Job in"
When it slows down just a little bit = "Try and do it by the book"

:nono2:

If it comes down to losing an install by not being able to do it by the book, guess what wins? Perfect example, look at any medium rise apt building with dishes hanging off the balconey. Ever wonder where they are grounded too? Mei either, because there not. :lol:

Well, check this out...

You install a dish, run the dual cable with a messenger line and run it to a ground block, ground block is not backbonded to anything, that counts as an attempted ground and they will pass the install, funny eh? Thats what we do on apartments.

The green ground screw thing urks me the most though, because they had been saying for months that using a self tapper would pass, but then all of the sudden if it didn't have the 'GREEN' screw then it doesn't. Then the general manager of Aerosat said 'just bring a green marker and make it green'. I worked in the 12V industry for 10+ years, where electrical connections are critical, Guess what we used for grounds most of the time??

A QC is a QC, but then it comes down to being just plain stupid. Thats called "TRYING TO FIND AN EXCUSE" To fail a job. IT used to be that QC guys were our friends, if there was an install with maybe one little thing here and there they would pass it anyways. Now, its a matter of trying to make that damn $25 for the company. So I went from being anal retentive, to REDICULOUSLY anal and overkill retantive and I CHALLAGED them to fail any job of mine, it was pretty funny.

Also, they are RETRO-ACTIVELY QC'ing jobs. Otherwise, they tell us one thing, then change it, then go back and fail jobs in the past where we were doing it 'one way' and then told do do another.

Anyways, I still chose to jump ship before it sank. I am soo glad I am gone I can't even begin to describe it. I will see how bad they try to screw me on my last couple checks, if its too bad I am going to take this to a lawyer and see if they want to persue a class action suit against the company, there are plenty of pissed off people that would love to have a piece of it.

Not to mention that and our supervisors are complete pussys with no backbone at all, they will not got to bat for any tech, they pretty much just bend over for Aerosat all the time and kiss their asses.

[avmaster]

Dwrecked,

It is worse than you think!

I'll send you a copy of my new novel (soon to be a blockbuster film) called "Cable Guy Goes Satellite." It is about an astronaut who goes into orbit when the cable industry was just getting started. He comes back to earth many years later and finds all the CATV systems are out of business. So he goes to talk to the satellite TV folks. When he hears their policy for disposable techs he builds rockets in his back yard and shoots down the commercial TV sats.

His dad was a cable guy and liked to look out the back window and watch the flashes.

Coming soon to a drive-in near you.

Joe


LMAO!!

[Elephanthead]

Your guys jobs suck, I wish you all well, unfortunately I don't this is the best time to find better job. You guys really need to unionize, that unfortunately is your only hope to be treated fair.

[Toyo]

Unionize? Yea, I bet you work for GM. That seems to be the answer for everything. This is the biggest demise of GM. All those old GM union people in there 70's still getting 80k pension plans when all they did was empty the trash on Monday, Wednesday, Friday!

[MrRed7]

Unionize? Yea, I bet you work for GM. That seems to be the answer for everything. This is the biggest demise of GM. All those old GM union people in there 70's still getting 80k pension plans when all they did was empty the trash on Monday, Wednesday, Friday!

My dad is a retired GM employee that worked for GM for 32 years. The stress of the job gave him 4 heart attacks. If it had not been for the UAW, he would be dead. People that knock unions have never seen the rewards of the union; a necessary evil.

My dad says that if M**T**, the HSP I work for, had a union, we wouldn't be dealing with all the ridiculous policies, unfair labor practices where upper and middle management takes advantage of the lifeblood of D* and M**T**. I have lived in Georgia for 6.5 years and have yet to see good and fair labor wages except in few instances that the workers are organized; Ford, USPS, Georgia Power, etc...

We have the unique opportunity to make a good and honest buck. But when you are not paid for random jobs where you work your butt off, that lends itself to calling up your union rep and him working on your behalf.

I have over $750 worth of jobs over a 6 month period that I have yet to be paid for, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? Another good tech in our office is a trainer and has yet to be paid $1200 in back trainer pay, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? We found out in our paychecks that our health insurance went up $32 a month, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? Guys in 3 of our offices have not been paid overtime because it "wasn't" approved and got a multi-million dollar settlement for the whole company and you tell me that unions are not needed?

That is just 4 examples of the crap that the big HSP's pull with their "lifeblood" of the company. We are the so-called number 2 person behind the D* customer in all of D*. Not so in M**T** and not so in other HSP's.

So, next time you disregard unions, talk to a person that has had the benefit of the union. GM is at fault not in taking care of their retirees, but in properly managing their finances. The president of GM made $14 million plus all the perks. (That's not something you will hear on the news channels.) Yet they are talking about bankruptcy. HA HA HA HA.

And by the way, 80K working Monday, Wednesday and Friday is a bit off. Try 60 hours 6 days a week making the required by law time and a half for 30 plus years of sweat and hard work. You just offended the middle class of America, bud. Time and a half at M**T**, yeah right!!!!!

[west99999]

THE HSP YOU WORK FOR HAS BEEN ON DOWNWARD SPIRAL FOR A LONG TIME BRINGING IN A UNION THEY WOULD CLOSE THE DOORS ON YOU AND NOTHING YOU COULD DO ABOUT IT I WORKED FOR A HSP THAT HAD A UNION AND WHEN DTV ACQUIRED THE HSP THEY SHUT THE OFFICE DOWN IT WAS THE ONLY UNION OFFICE OUT OF THE ENTIRE HSP SO BRING A UNION IN AT YOUR OWN RISK YOU WILL MOST LIKELY LOOSE MORE THAN YOU EVER WILL GET OUT OF ITMy dad is a retired GM employee that worked for GM for 32 years. The stress of the job gave him 4 heart attacks. If it had not been for the UAW, he would be dead. People that knock unions have never seen the rewards of the union; a necessary evil.

My dad says that if M**T**, the HSP I work for, had a union, we wouldn't be dealing with all the ridiculous policies, unfair labor practices where upper and middle management takes advantage of the lifeblood of D* and M**T**. I have lived in Georgia for 6.5 years and have yet to see good and fair labor wages except in few instances that the workers are organized; Ford, USPS, Georgia Power, etc...

We have the unique opportunity to make a good and honest buck. But when you are not paid for random jobs where you work your butt off, that lends itself to calling up your union rep and him working on your behalf.

I have over $750 worth of jobs over a 6 month period that I have yet to be paid for, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? Another good tech in our office is a trainer and has yet to be paid $1200 in back trainer pay, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? We found out in our paychecks that our health insurance went up $32 a month, yet you tell me that unions are not needed? Guys in 3 of our offices have not been paid overtime because it "wasn't" approved and got a multi-million dollar settlement for the whole company and you tell me that unions are not needed?

That is just 4 examples of the crap that the big HSP's pull with their "lifeblood" of the company. We are the so-called number 2 person behind the D* customer in all of D*. Not so in M**T** and not so in other HSP's.

So, next time you disregard unions, talk to a person that has had the benefit of the union. GM is at fault not in taking care of their retirees, but in properly managing their finances. The president of GM made $14 million plus all the perks. (That's not something you will hear on the news channels.) Yet they are talking about bankruptcy. HA HA HA HA.

And by the way, 80K working Monday, Wednesday and Friday is a bit off. Try 60 hours 6 days a week making the required by law time and a half for 30 plus years of sweat and hard work. You just offended the middle class of America, bud. Time and a half at M**T**, yeah right!!!!!

[MrRed7]

THE HSP YOU WORK FOR HAS BEEN ON DOWNWARD SPIRAL FOR A LONG TIME BRINGING IN A UNION THEY WOULD CLOSE THE DOORS ON YOU AND NOTHING YOU COULD DO ABOUT IT I WORKED FOR A HSP THAT HAD A UNION AND WHEN DTV ACQUIRED THE HSP THEY SHUT THE OFFICE DOWN IT WAS THE ONLY UNION OFFICE OUT OF THE ENTIRE HSP SO BRING A UNION IN AT YOUR OWN RISK YOU WILL MOST LIKELY LOOSE MORE THAN YOU EVER WILL GET OUT OF IT

I wouldn't even think of trying to organize. D* would end it. You are exactly correct in that we would lose more than what would get out of it. Did you work for 180 C* or I***W***? Did you have the same problems as well? Do you now work for D*? What's it like if you do?

D* needs to do a better job of their chargebacks. If an IRD that I installed was a refurb and the refurb goes bad in a week, then why is that my fault? Or... if a Triple Sat LNB goes bad because of lightning within 90 days, why is that my fault?

[TigersFanJJ]

I wouldn't even think of trying to organize. D* would end it. You are exactly correct in that we would lose more than what would get out of it. Did you work for 180 C* or I***W***? Did you have the same problems as well? Do you now work for D*? What's it like if you do?

D* needs to do a better job of their chargebacks. If an IRD that I installed was a refurb and the refurb goes bad in a week, then why is that my fault? Or... if a Triple Sat LNB goes bad because of lightning within 90 days, why is that my fault?

He worked for Bruister. So far, chargebacks and nitpicking jobs to cause failed QCs (and thus, more chargebacks) have increased under Directv ownership. Nothing has changed for the positive. Of course, why would anyone think things would get better? After all, it makes Directv more money to chargeback as much money as they can to the tech.

[yyygac2]

Unionize? Yea, I bet you work for GM. That seems to be the answer for everything. This is the biggest demise of GM. All those old GM union people in there 70's still getting 80k pension plans when all they did was empty the trash on Monday, Wednesday, Friday!

There is a saying ...
"Any company that has a union deserved it".

[avmaster]

The backcharges still happen. They seem to just keep looking for more angles to get into our back pockets.

DTV just bought our HSP here the area (not ironwood), so that is going to bring about some change, but I am still not thinking its a good thing, they have just turned into bigger and bigger a-holes as time progressess. DTV's plan seems to be trying to find inperfections and turning them into excuses to get into our back pockets.

I really can't see how anyone in their right mind can keep doing this job for any extended period of time.

[Grentz]

I still think they should just have a $199 install charge or something to try and provide better pay to installers and attract more installers that do better work and take pride in the jobs done.

I know it will not happen as to be competitive they have to offer free installs (since cable, dish, uverse, etc. all do). Also might not work necessarily as some installers would do just as bad of a job and rush to make more money. Sad as I think most people would be willing to pay more if they knew the difference in install quality and headaches and if the overall install quality could be increased I think many service issues and peoples view of the service as a whole would be better.

[joe diamond]

I still think they should just have a $199 install charge or something to try and provide better pay to installers and attract more installers that do better work and take pride in the jobs done.

I know it will not happen as to be competitive they have to offer free installs (since cable, dish, uverse, etc. all do). Also might not work necessarily as some installers would do just as bad of a job and rush to make more money. Sad as I think most people would be willing to pay more if they knew the difference in install quality and headaches and if the overall install quality could be increased I think many service issues and peoples view of the service as a whole would be better.

Grentz,

I just found an ad in my area: Satellite Installers: .... "Skilled or unskilled" was one of the quotes...the other emphasis was "must have white van" ....and another one was
"as clean a driving record as possible".........and the range of pay offered was $500.00 to $1200.00.

I just know this is an HSP (unnamed) and so I have an eyesight problem working for them...just can't see my ass doin' it! (Again)

But the bright side is..........I have neighbors with screwed up installations who call me...........fixing them is a good deal. All the materials are there...they are just in need of a little help.

Oh, yeah! The ad was in craigslist under general labor.......their plan is to train whoever shows up and when they quit.....97% / year they retrain another one.

RE the charge back issue..........nothing works better than using the local courts. That will get most of charge backs returned but...why do it?

Joe

[Grentz]

I know, I dont know what the answer is. And truth be told this installer issue is not limited to Directv.

Many cable cos, telephone cos, etc. all have similar issues. Difference is many of them have their own employees which keeps some of the QC up a bit more and creates more pay, but they also are not nationwide with limited infrastructure in many areas like Directv is.

[carl6]

While I much prefer DirecTV over Comcast, I have to admit that the local (Seattle area) Comcast operation is excellent with regard to technicians. Most are regular hourly employees, drive company owned vans, are issued the tools and test equipment they need to do the job, and if you call with a problem, someone is usually on-site within one day, worst case two days. Employee retention is excellent, almost no turnover.

[satguy22]

We are geting them here too. Just wait for the law suit ( class action) and get on the band wagon. keep some record too. It will take a year or too to make it worth it to the lawlers. But here in Fl the state att. doesnt like dtv anyway.

[Mertzen]

Many cable cos, telephone cos, etc. all have similar issues. Difference is many of them have their own employees which keeps some of the QC up a bit more and creates more pay,.

I don't think in-house in any silver bullit. You should see the standard of work and customer interaction of many of the cable/phone guys here in NYC. As for QC; it'll be somewhat grounded but after that it's a sloppy mess. And rudeness beyond belief.

[joe diamond]

We are geting them here too. Just wait for the law suit ( class action) and get on the band wagon. keep some record too. It will take a year or too to make it worth it to the lawlers. But here in Fl the state att. doesnt like dtv anyway.

The class action suites I have seen,,,not just DTV & HSP stuff..but, as a generalization, produce good income for lawyers on both sides. The principals ( defendants) are large corporations (EXXON, DTV etc) who can pass on the little bump to customers. The plaintiffs get a credit to buy their next vehicle or TV.

The specific damages are not addressed because there is rarely any money after legal fees.

Then the employees who signed up for the suite have to make nice with an employer who is just a little annoyed. Consumers who are damaged have to endure additional advertising to counteract the negative effects of the suite they brought.

My biggest cause for wonder is not the problems with installation management but rather that they have continued for so long. The same entities violate the same labor laws and are still in place year after year.

Let DTV try actually operating the installation end for awhile and see how the other half lives. Cool shirts and slick ads are not all there is to it.

Joe

[avmaster]

Actually thinking of going back to be a Dish Net Sub again. I understand the purpose of backcharging, it basically has everyone working in fear. But the B.S. is if a service tech rolls on a job, a lot of times they LIE and close it out with a code that creates a chargeback.

Anything like
-Customer Caused
-Bad LNB
-Replace RCVR
-Replace Multiswitch

Etc are non installation related codes, we don't get chargebacks on those.

But we have caught service techs using other codes that do create a chargeback, for example saying they changed out a ground block, or replaced a cable when they did no such thing. Now why are they doing this?' Some of them may just be idiots. But something tells me they are being TOLD to do this. The same reason they don't let us roll on our own service calls, its PROFIT-DRIVEN.

[joe diamond]

Actually thinking of going back to be a Dish Net Sub again. I understand the purpose of backcharging, it basically has everyone working in fear. But the B.S. is if a service tech rolls on a job, a lot of times they LIE and close it out with a code that creates a chargeback.

Anything like
-Customer Caused
-Bad LNB
-Replace RCVR
-Replace Multiswitch

Etc are non installation related codes, we don't get chargebacks on those.

But we have caught service techs using other codes that do create a chargeback, for example saying they changed out a ground block, or replaced a cable when they did no such thing. Now why are they doing this?' Some of them may just be idiots. But something tells me they are being TOLD to do this. The same reason they don't let us roll on our own service calls, its PROFIT-DRIVEN.

My personal fav was, "Guys there are some charge backs coming. A pallet of Tivos went missing. Corporate said to make the books balance so don't ask. That is just the way it is."

That was several years ago and I'm sure it was a one time event that has never been repeated.

Joe

[DtvSlave]

That was several years ago and I'm sure it was a one time event that has never been repeated.:hurah:

Maybe not with the Tivo line, but it still happens!

[Mertzen]

When I was still with HSP. First the statement ' we had to pay $$$$$$ [ right amount of dollar signs there ] to D* for non compliance on QCs'. A few weeks later every sub had to run daily CS reports after callbacks to every cust from previous day. If no report by noon, $250 charge back. And some more tech back charges too.

[joe diamond]

When I was still with HSP. First the statement ' we had to pay $$$$$$ [ right amount of dollar signs there ] to D* for non compliance on QCs'. A few weeks later every sub had to run daily CS reports after callbacks to every cust from previous day. If no report by noon, $250 charge back. And some more tech back charges too.

Now that part interests me!

My DTV deal before last was with an ASP sub...(HSP wannabe). When the checks stopped coming and my invoices were ignored I sued him personally and got a judgment. I haven't been able to find the guy's money.

Maybe the ASP has it. The jobs are in and DTV is being paid...but............he tried to be cute with the contract details about phone callbacks and other matters. None of that stuff was even mentioned as part of my deal. Maybe the ASP he was dealing with has my money?

I know that the presure was on quick installations and lots of them.

Hmmmmmmm?

Joe

[Mertzen]

At 'my' HSP all the subs had to sign a contract. You messed up anything they would pull it and always threaten to pull it. Also every other month a new contract came out, most of them with new back charges. Don't want to sign it; goodbye. I've seen weekly checks torn to shreds after all the back charges were taken out.

[joe diamond]

At 'my' HSP all the subs had to sign a contract. You messed up anything they would pull it and always threaten to pull it. Also every other month a new contract came out, most of them with new back charges. Don't want to sign it; goodbye. I've seen weekly checks torn to shreds after all the back charges were taken out.

Hmmmm!

Instead of new contracts my guy was "out of forms" and we agreed to let the paperwork catch up. As soon as the background check and drug test were ok he sent equipment and jobs.

Then the kid in the office would remind me of crap that had not been discussed. At one point I stopped work and faxed back the jobs.The talk never caught up with the contracts.

So I guess I got him in court even though he probably got hosed. I'll put a lien on his house; might pay some day.

It shouldn't be this hard.

Joe

[firefighter4evr]

While I much prefer DirecTV over Comcast, I have to admit that the local (Seattle area) Comcast operation is excellent with regard to technicians. Most are regular hourly employees, drive company owned vans, are issued the tools and test equipment they need to do the job, and if you call with a problem, someone is usually on-site within one day, worst case two days. Employee retention is excellent, almost no turnover.

Its the same here in PA... in fact, i have been hearing so many GOOD reports im seriously thinking of going to work for them:eek2:......

Don't get me wrong i love my D* but, im so sick of putting in apps with them and getting the run around.

[Shades228]

It seems to me like a good digital camera would cover your ass on an installation. Now repeat SC's are a killer for any company. It causes duplicate cost in labor, customer satisfaction to go down due to having another date to wait and those trying to setup a service. If I were a tech I'd just take pictures of everything per job. Then if they say "You didn't do blah" you just pull out the pictures. This probably would help but of course it wouldn't stop all of it.

While I know there are HSP's that abuse the system to reduce money they pay out to techs there's also the other side. Tech's not doing it correctly, tech's completing work orders they know are wrong, tech's not spending time to tell people how to use stuff, and so on and so on.

I have a feeling that sometime soon some pretty big changes will be happening in the whole process.

[thespaceghost]

It seems to me like a good digital camera would cover your ass on an installation.



A camera won't do much. The HSP's won't care either way. The wording never spells out what is wrong in the first place. Also, many backcharges are things you can't prevent, such as the kid taking a bat do the dish or a bad receiver. If you're responsible enough to take your own pictures, then I doubt that kind of person is going to put in any jobs that pictures will even make a difference.

[Shades228]

The question then is how could the system be fixed?

[joe diamond]

The question then is how could the system be fixed?

I don't think DTV considers the system broken. They have worked hard to distance themselves from the really serious liabilities. If the techs quit they get more. They have enough customers for now.

Joe

[avmaster]

I don't think DTV considers the system broken. They have worked hard to distance themselves from the really serious liabilities. If the techs quit they get more. They have enough customers for now.

Joe

Sad but true.

Bottom line is, the job is actually fairly easy, there are things about it that can be a pain in the ass, but direct wants to make it as miserable as possible. Bottom line is I do this job to make money, not because I am passionate about television, or satellite. I have much much higher goals in life, this job is merely to boost me along the way. I always do every job top notch, not saying that I don't ever make mistakes, but I do take pride in what I do. The shop I work for now, I actually worked for dish for about 6 months then came back because they closed up. 6 months later, there are maybe 3 guys that I knew from before, and in the 4 months or so I have been back, they have probably hired and fired another 10 people if not more. The turnover rate is just rediculous. I don't have the feeling of anyone other than myself looking out for me, you do a kick ass job all the time, and the first time even the tinyest issue comes up thats all you hear about. Its a totally corrupt system from the bottom all the way to the top.

I would rather work for someone who makes me proud to work for them.

[pressureman0]

I call it back charge city If i install say 20 jobs a week I might have 1 or 2 repeat service call for a 2 week check and every time i look behine me I'm getting Qc 1 or more a day i never fail a Qc I love the charge back for a bad lnb or a bad refurb box I got a call from the area site manager to roll back or it be a sevice in 7 first time the custmer unplug the box the second time comcast tech un hook my wire for internet in a room

[joe diamond]

It seems to me like a good digital camera would cover your ass on an installation. Now repeat SC's are a killer for any company. It causes duplicate cost in labor, customer satisfaction to go down due to having another date to wait and those trying to setup a service. If I were a tech I'd just take pictures of everything per job. Then if they say "You didn't do blah" you just pull out the pictures. This probably would help but of course it wouldn't stop all of it.

While I know there are HSP's that abuse the system to reduce money they pay out to techs there's also the other side. Tech's not doing it correctly, tech's completing work orders they know are wrong, tech's not spending time to tell people how to use stuff, and so on and so on.

I have a feeling that sometime soon some pretty big changes will be happening in the whole process.

Shades,

The quote is. "If the customer calls DTV for any reason for...30....60 ..90 days (whatever, it changes)...that will cost you $100.00." This has been interpreted that, because the customer called DTV to get the installer's phone number to return a tool or just to report a good experience; that is a call within the magic period and costs $100.00.

This is HSP land and even camera work for each job will not alter the fact that the check needs to be fixed.........and the readjustment never comes. I have seen charge backs for jobs I never did, been charged for "lost" equipment that is now and always has been in service....it goes on.

And you are correct.......there have always been techs who should not be out there. But you still see ads for "Road Crews" to hit an area to quick and dirty install a backlog of installations. This never produces quality work. Local offices get the service calls. The local offices gets the difficult installations. This is now coming to be known as Alternate Fulfillment Provider (AFP) work.

It just makes it easier to walk away.

Joe

[avmaster]

its $43 a pop here, and never for any direct tv equipment caused stuff. Their equipment goes bad and they try to punish me for it, you bet i will have a whole band of installers sueing them.

The thing that puzzles me, is the bigger backcharges seem to come when you have a bigger check coming, seems highly co-incidental to me. So we area actually marking our stuff now so we can see what actually was replaced(if any) on jobs.

[joe diamond]

its $43 a pop here, and never for any direct tv equipment caused stuff. Their equipment goes bad and they try to punish me for it, you bet i will have a whole band of installers sueing them.

The thing that puzzles me, is the bigger backcharges seem to come when you have a bigger check coming, seems highly co-incidental to me. So we area actually marking our stuff now so we can see what actually was replaced(if any) on jobs.

avmaster,

Are you a subcontractor to an HSP?

Joe

[Birdman79]

Our HSP stopped back charging techs because of a law suit against them.

[joe diamond]

Out HSP stopped back charging techs because of a law suit against them.

It shouldn't be this tough! If they were deducting withholding taxes AND back charging or failing to pay for ride time and office meetings...you got them.

Be careful out there.

Joe

[avmaster]

Out HSP stopped back charging techs because of a law suit against them.


Thats what needs to happen with Aerosat.

D* is in the process of buying them out though, so we will see what happens now. They are starting to get busted on some bad chargebacks. I personally have caught them twice now.

I am personally going to work for a different company, at least for now. I was getting way too irritated about the way things were going, I can't help a company that is run by morons.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Anytime the crew is paid by the number of completions instead of by the hour, there's going to be shortcuts taken, you know it and I know it. Ever seen someone cut a ground rod at 12" & screw the fittings on finger tight or anchor a roof mount only into the OSB decking? Have to admit tho that "green screws" is taking things over the top. Think if I were trying to make a living at this I'd take along my digital camera and document my work. I think the QC guys get paid by the number of chargebacks they can find.

.

[wallfishman]

my SIN90 is low because i give everyone my number and tell them for the next 90 days Im responsible for everything so you have to call me. I go over this like 3 times while im there. our backcharge is 30 dollars. The bad side to that is I have all these idiots calling me day and night for stupid things. The worst are these "Antenna People" that never had cable or sattelite before. they dont understand the concept about the tv stays on one channel and you now change channels with the DTV box. they are calling
"nothings working"
well what channel is the tv on ??
"72"
well remember I told you like 7 times to leave it on channel 4 ??
I came from 20 years of cable tv contracting and never had any type of backcharge. Now in this business its just a normal practice

[avmaster]

I do that too, all customers get my number. It does get annoying when they can't figure out what input the tv needs to be on. It doesn't stop the service within 90's fully though. People lose the number, or just always run straight to direct tv.

They look at it as a revenue generator. When it comes down to service call techs LYING about what they did, its pretty obvious.

One guy at our shop lost almost $400 out of his check last week. Naturally he was pissed. Funny thing is, somehow when its busy the chargebacks lessen in freqency, thats not just a coincidence. That means when time is slow, they start looking at ways to PAY us less.

Also, Q/C guys actually TRY to find ways to fail a job, thats what they are paid to do, they get paid more by when they fail a job and claim to fix it. One way they do this is by continuously changing what they want you to do.

And they will keep it up until they don't have any good techs left. Well actually its like that now, turnover rate of people is running about 10 a month.

Whatever the intentions are, there is just way too much corruption in the system. It wouldn't be that hard for them to give us back our own service calls, but they just wont. I wonder why that is?


I started working for a retailer which means no backcharges, ever!! Mark my words, I will NEVER work for another HSP.

[Tallgntlmn]

Let's say an installer cannot or will not mount a dish for me. Would they leave the dish if I offer to sign off on it and not call in service for 90 days? I ask because mine will be a pole install on a balcony which is quite common in Atlanta, but I know it could cause problems with QC. I know you can't speak for installers in my area, I am asking a generality. I will be moving in 4 months or so that's part of why I ask. A service call is cheaper than 4 months of programming that would be added by using MC. But if an installer (if he canot or will not install) won't leave the dish, then I have no choice but to use MC. Speaking of QC, is that something that happens without the resident knowing or would someone call and then want to come inspect?

[wallfishman]

Let's say an installer cannot or will not mount a dish for me. Would they leave the dish if I offer to sign off on it and not call in service for 90 days? I ask because mine will be a pole install on a balcony which is quite common in Atlanta, but I know it could cause problems with QC. I know you can't speak for installers in my area, I am asking a generality. I will be moving in 4 months or so that's part of why I ask. A service call is cheaper than 4 months of programming that would be added by using MC. But if an installer (if he canot or will not install) won't leave the dish, then I have no choice but to use MC. Speaking of QC, is that something that happens without the resident knowing or would someone call and then want to come inspect?
what is MC?

[Tallgntlmn]

what is MC?Whoops, sorry about that. Mover's Connection. I'd rather move it myself than extend the commitment longer as it would be cheaper that way.

[BattleZone]

Let's say an installer cannot or will not mount a dish for me. Would they leave the dish if I offer to sign off on it and not call in service for 90 days? I ask because mine will be a pole install on a balcony which is quite common in Atlanta, but I know it could cause problems with QC. I know you can't speak for installers in my area, I am asking a generality. I will be moving in 4 months or so that's part of why I ask. A service call is cheaper than 4 months of programming that would be added by using MC. But if an installer (if he canot or will not install) won't leave the dish, then I have no choice but to use MC. Speaking of QC, is that something that happens without the resident knowing or would someone call and then want to come inspect?

The QC people will call you, sometimes the day before, but usually the day of, and ask if you're home and if they can come QC the job. They might come and just QC the dish portion if it's a house and the dish is in the front, but they like to see the inside work as well.

To answer your question, the installer is risking a chargeback if you decide to call DirecTV. But if you explain that you understand that, and offer to sign off, and let him know that you will not call DirecTV for 90 days, you might get him to agree. The fact that you're fully knowledgable about the situation will be a big point in your favor. You might further offer to call him directly and pay him if you do find that you need help within the 90 days.
Good luck on your install and let us know how it goes.

[Tallgntlmn]

Thanks IIP. I appreciate the info. I think I have called D* maybe 6 times in 8 years. Three to tell them of a new address and 3 of them in the last couple weeks to play CSR roulette to find out my options.

I've always done my own installs so I have no problem not calling. I plan on running new cable already. I was even thinking about doing the pole but I can't figure out if a contraption I want to build would be equal to a non-pen mount. It would likely be one of the easier installs that one could get. About all he'd have to do is mount, connect and aim the dish. At least that's how I want it to be. Lord knows these guys go into some jacked up situations and I want mine to be incredibly simple.

[avmaster]

Yeah, it would be nice if an installer could use common sense on an install, and if QC guys saw it the same way.

Non approved mount, no matter how stable it is = fail qc.

I have several great ways of mounting a dish to different sorts of structures that would never budge unless a hurricane hits it, but the HSP says no no.

Its just basically blanket bombing all installs, because of the few hacks out there that did a horrible job. I have seen some pretty crazy hack installs with the dish barely hanging onto something.

[racermd]

While I'm not exactly a professional installer (in any sense of the term) I've always done my own install work. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I did work for a subcontractor for Charter in the central MN region for a short while and I can tell you what I would have done if I got charged-back for stuff that wasn't my fault.

First, the issue would be brought up to my management structure - as high as it takes to get a positive result.

Failing that, it would be short consultation with a lawyer and perhaps paying a 'small' fee to have a letter drafted (to be presented to management).

If that fails, or my employment is threatened because of the previous steps, off to court I'd go with all the documentation. Depending on the amounts involved, it might have to stay in small-claims, though.

If enough people stood up for themselves in this way, the HSPs and D* would almost welcome a class-action suit because it would cost them much less.

[avmaster]

While I'm not exactly a professional installer (in any sense of the term) I've always done my own install work. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I did work for a subcontractor for Charter in the central MN region for a short while and I can tell you what I would have done if I got charged-back for stuff that wasn't my fault.

First, the issue would be brought up to my management structure - as high as it takes to get a positive result.

Failing that, it would be short consultation with a lawyer and perhaps paying a 'small' fee to have a letter drafted (to be presented to management).

If that fails, or my employment is threatened because of the previous steps, off to court I'd go with all the documentation. Depending on the amounts involved, it might have to stay in small-claims, though.

If enough people stood up for themselves in this way, the HSPs and D* would almost welcome a class-action suit because it would cost them much less.

It needs to happen, just need to get enough people to get together and put a stop to it.

[avmaster]

I am taking the contractor I was working for to small claims here in a couple weeks for some jobs that they wrongfully took money from me on. I will let you all know how it turns out.

Its not a huge amount of money, but over the last couple weeks I lost about $600. Timing was bad, and it put me farther behind on some bills than I need to be. I am sure a judge will see how they just don't seem to care. They just operate like they can just do whatever they want and take as much money from you as they feel like.

The one that really ticked me off the most, a guy called and complained about the fact that I used black clips to hold the cable instead of white clips, one morning I called that customer and I was going to meet with him and see what I could do to satisfy him, I set up a time, and a couple supervisors went out ahead of me and took care of it. Then they pulled the whole job from me($120) which is actually a loss of more like $150 or so if you figure the materials etc. that I used on the job. It was a very minor issue. The problem is, they think they can just do that, and no one is going to do anything about it. Well, they are wrong, very wrong. I am angry to the point that if nothing else I am going to add some legal headaches into their lives. In this economy, its wrong to take wages from someone without good reason, you cant just go around making up reasons and screwing people over.

Then, after that is all said and done I am going to see what I can do to get the ball rolling on a class action lawsuit against the HSP. I know enough guys that will jump in on it too, because when you look at the big picture, its millions. There are no checks and balances in place to make sure the system is not abused, and it clearly is being abused.

[BattleZone]

The one that really ticked me off the most, a guy called and complained about the fact that I used black clips to hold the cable instead of white clips, one morning I called that customer and I was going to meet with him and see what I could do to satisfy him, I set up a time, and a couple supervisors went out ahead of me and took care of it. Then they pulled the whole job from me($120) which is actually a loss of more like $150 or so if you figure the materials etc. that I used on the job. It was a very minor issue. The problem is, they think they can just do that, and no one is going to do anything about it.

It may depend on your contract, though. My techs are not allowed to "salt & pepper" (black supplies on white cable or vice versa), and that's in the contract. If there isn't anything in your contract about this, then they're going to lose.

But there are much worse things going on, like being backcharged for failed receivers, switches, and LNBs, or for jobs that you were never assigned; things like that.

[joe diamond]

I am taking the contractor I was working for to small claims here in a couple weeks for some jobs that they wrongfully took money from me on. I will let you all know how it turns out.

Its not a huge amount of money, but over the last couple weeks I lost about $600. Timing was bad, and it put me farther behind on some bills than I need to be. I am sure a judge will see how they just don't seem to care. They just operate like they can just do whatever they want and take as much money from you as they feel like.

The one that really ticked me off the most, a guy called and complained about the fact that I used black clips to hold the cable instead of white clips, one morning I called that customer and I was going to meet with him and see what I could do to satisfy him, I set up a time, and a couple supervisors went out ahead of me and took care of it. Then they pulled the whole job from me($120) which is actually a loss of more like $150 or so if you figure the materials etc. that I used on the job. It was a very minor issue. The problem is, they think they can just do that, and no one is going to do anything about it. Well, they are wrong, very wrong. I am angry to the point that if nothing else I am going to add some legal headaches into their lives. In this economy, its wrong to take wages from someone without good reason, you cant just go around making up reasons and screwing people over.

Then, after that is all said and done I am going to see what I can do to get the ball rolling on a class action lawsuit against the HSP. I know enough guys that will jump in on it too, because when you look at the big picture, its millions. There are no checks and balances in place to make sure the system is not abused, and it clearly is being abused.

AV,

Good luck with your case. You may win. But make notes of any actions by the company to either stop you from calling them into court OR any attempts to settle outside of court.

You may want to look at your contract. Those clips are cosmetic items, as is colored cable. You are way outside the basic installation guidelines. Are you even paid to use them?

The other contract consideration is if you are actually and employee. From the actions you mentioned it may be that your company is using you as an employee........directing your actions in specific ways...and not paying wages or withholding taxes etc. The IRS has a special test for this.

I would forget the class action suite. It will produce full employment for the lawyers on both sides but may get you a discount card for your next purchase of a new TV. Keep hitting them with separate suits each time they refuse to work with you on the charge backs.

Report how it goes.

Joe

[avmaster]

I dont work for them anymore, so no more chargebacks. We are 1099, so technically self employed.

[avmaster]

It may depend on your contract, though. My techs are not allowed to "salt & pepper" (black supplies on white cable or vice versa), and that's in the contract. If there isn't anything in your contract about this, then they're going to lose.

But there are much worse things going on, like being backcharged for failed receivers, switches, and LNBs, or for jobs that you were never assigned; things like that.

No, nothing in the contract about that. Using black supplies is actually smart here in AZ because they are more UV resistant. In 2.5 years I have never had a complaint, this guy was an exception. Of course he was really happy after I left the house. The point is, it was not a big deal. They came out and probably spent 1/2 hr at the house.

I am going after that one, and a job from back on NOV, they pulled a 6 outlet HD job from me. The reason? I attempted a wall fish for a customer, it was in a very difficult spot to get to, I told the customer I may not be able to do it. When i couldn't, I left a wall plate on the hole. 2 weeks later the customer complained about it. Instead of letting me know, they went out, and somehow got the fish in(not sure how because I spent over an hour drilling).

They did one wall fish, and somehow justify taking a $175 job from me. The job was perfect other than the attempted wallfish.

I am guessing probably around $500 or so total in lost stuff, I am probably going to go for $6-700.

[joe diamond]

Best to do what you did. If they even blink call them on it. They know what they are doing because they do ir all the time. There are situations where trust is not appropriate and working for HSPs is one of them. Win or loose you are getting off cheap at under a thousand.

Joe

[HDTVsportsfan]

It never ceases to amaze me reading some of the stories from you guys in this forum.

[avmaster]

Best to do what you did. If they even blink call them on it. They know what they are doing because they do ir all the time. There are situations where trust is not appropriate and working for HSPs is one of them. Win or loose you are getting off cheap at under a thousand.

Joe

Just goes to show you cannot have people with poor ethics running a business, and that goes all the way from the subcontractors to the upper management. Cash in pocket is more important than treating people right to them. There should not be a sense of fear when you go to pick up your check on payday.

And really all it takes is enough people to stand up for whats right. So many people just let it go.

[joe diamond]

Just goes to show you cannot have people with poor ethics running a business, and that goes all the way from the subcontractors to the upper management. Cash in pocket is more important than treating people right to them. There should not be a sense of fear when you go to pick up your check on payday.

And really all it takes is enough people to stand up for whats right. So many people just let it go.

Right on!

The cops arrested the last one. I got paid. I have a judgment on the one before that......and, DirectSat..........you guys are too busy to count boxes.......there is a chance I can beat on your door. Philadelphia is not too far to go for four thousand bucks plus interest.

Too many people just let it go!

Joe