The Barren Landscape of E* Receivers

[Wunderhund]

On the subject of receivers:

I have been curious to know the history of why Dish only has E* receivers available to the public, while DirecTV has several competing brands making receivers? Why hasn't E* made a similar deal to license their technology?

Overall, I have been happy with Dish's programming. It appears that they may have an advantage in HD programming if the rumors are true about next month's HD additions. But to only offer one HD receiver to their customers, the clunky, out-dated, noisy 6000, is embarrassing. And what will be the choice for those who don't want the 921 later this year? No plans for a next-generation, PVR-less HD receiver? E* seems to be heading down the Sony-Betamax/Apple-Macintosh road to minimal marketshare.

I realize that customers who desire HD compatible receivers are in the minority, so this issue may not be their priority. But the lack of hardware choices on the Dish front might make me switch to DirecTV later this year.

Wunderhund

[gcutler]

Actually when it came time for me to decide on a DBS provider my lack of knowledge matching the limited # of Dish models made it easier for me and I chose Dish. Now that I understand all that stuff, having a 3rd party choice of recievers would be beneficial.

As to the choices, I would love a DishTiVo but the choice of hardware (or lack there of) is not going to make me change my DBS provider. Granted if dish makes me angry, the choice of hardware will more easily sway me to D* but it hasn't reached that point yet. I'm satisfied with my SA TiVo on a 4900 and 508 for the time being.

[Jerry 42]

I too would like a TiVo E* and as an added wish 2 tuners.

I do not understand why E* does not make a deal with TiVo to make a TiVo E* unit.

[Ken_F]

Overall, I have been happy with Dish's programming. It appears that they may have an advantage in HD programming if the rumors are true about next month's HD additions. But to only offer one HD receiver to their customers, the clunky, out-dated, noisy 6000, is embarrassing. And what will be the choice for those who don't want the 921 later this year? No plans for a next-generation, PVR-less HD receiver?Dish does have a non-PVR successor to the 6000 in the works. It will include a built-in 8VSB tuner, DVI-CP/HDCP, and maybe Firewire. It will also feature a newer/faster guide, probably comparable to that found on the 301. The unofficial designation is 811 with availability by end 2003, but I personally don't expect to see it until 2Q 2004. It should be significantly cheaper than the 6000, probably $299-$399 fully equipped with both 8PSK and OTA.

[Lyle_JP]

Jerry,

I don't know if it's true, but is it possible that DirecTV has some sort of exclusive contract with Tivo? Also, E* did work with Microsoft to jointly create the first PVR. Talk about a disaster, where no one wanted to be stuck with the chair when the music stopped. Maybe that's one of the reasons why they like to do everything in-house now.

[Bob Haller]

I suspect some of this keepingf everythuing in house was a security issue. The larger the number of engineers working with the system the greater the risk some will not be trustworthy.

D is a example of a major security problem. Perhaps E doesnt want to be like them???

[DarrellP]

Yeah, Bob and we all now how good Microsoft is at security.

[Kagato]

I have no idea why E* does the STBs the way they do. They actually follow the DVB standard pretty closely. So in theory most Euro DVB equipment COULD work with little modification.
There would be a question if you could get HD out of a Euro DVB STB.

DirecTV is in it's own little world, but seems to have done really well by having a dozen or so makers put together STBs. Having Sony making STB is huge as no one makes a GUI like them...

[Steve Mehs]

When the agreement with E* and Thomson was announced I got all excited that we might see a new breed of IRDs for Dish. But unfortunately there has been nothing yet. Dish's receiver selection is just plain poor, 301, 508, 721 or 6000 which hs been discontinued. With the new Dish Pro technology, the 6000 should have been replaced with a 211 a year ago, there should be a 401, something similar to the 4900. There should also be a 2 tuner PVR based on the 508 and the OpenTV platform, but unlike the 522, both tuners are on the same tv. That should be about half the cost of a 721. I don't need nor want internet features on my satellite receiver, don't need a keyboard, just a soild PVR.

[Jerry 42]

While it would seem E* wants to control every aspect of its service, given the fact that other manufactures e.g. Sony and Systems e.g TiVo add visaiblity and feature that some people want wouldn't it help E* to get and keep subs by some type of join ventures to offer these features?

I see from other posts that people with D* including those who went from E* to D* like this fearture from this machine or that feature from that machine.

E* seem to limit you - now - to 301 - PVR 721 - 6000u (production stopped). I just do not see how that helps E* to get and keep subs, but I am no marketing expert.

I have been with Dish for six years (any body want a 2700) but I do feel I do not have the receiver(s) set up the way I really want it. I Mikey Mouse it by having TiVo control a 301 while I use 2 - 6000 w/upgrade for direct viewing. How many subs are willing to do it this way if they want the TiVo type features?

I am not as rich as Charlie and I certainly don't know all but it just seems odd that they do not work with other companies to give customers more options or even just to cut their R&D and/or their cash outlay on equipment manufacturing. I saw that Charlie is 45th on a list rich men in the business so he must know something.

While I am happy with Dish in most respects, I guess if Dish does fall too far behind in equipment or programming I could move to D* I think HD will be big and right now CBS HD is only on Dish so I consider them a little ahead on the HD front. But that's only my opinion.

[JStanton]

Originally posted by DarrellP
Yeah, Bob and we all now how good Microsoft is at security.

In what way is Microsoft not good at security?

- Jim

[Nick]

IMO, it's not that MS security features aren't on par with competitors -- it's that they are the '900 lb gorrilla' target for the hackers fo the world. It's a badge of honor to hack a MS product. You won't win a "Hackie" breaching Eudora's defenses.

[Nick]

ECHOSTAR ANNUAL EMPLOYEE EEVALUATION - FORM #FU

Name: Charles Ergen
Title: Chairman & CEO
Overall score: 4.4

Personal Traits: Doesn't work well with others.

Supporting documents to file -
- MicroSoft
- Gilat
- FCC
- DOJ
- Vivendi
-YES Network
- NY DMA Customers
- Charlie Chat viewers
- The Dolan Family
- Dishplayer owners
- Dealer feedback file
- Customer Service file

[Edit: cnsf contributed to this list]

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Lyle_JP
Jerry,

I don't know if it's true, but is it possible that DirecTV has some sort of exclusive contract with Tivo?

DirecTV has a significant equity investment in TiVo.

[Karl Foster]

All those who bash Microsoft for their DBS software obviously don't have an Ultimatetv unit. While you may base your experience on the Dishplayer, I am finding it hard to believe that it is all MS's fault in the fiasco. MS has proven they can make a bug-free, feature-filled dual tuner PVR. If they can do it with D*, why couldn't they do it with E*? I'm sure those with insider info will slam me, but MS does know how to write DBS software!

[cnsf]

Originally posted by Nick
ECHOSTAR ANNUAL EMPLOYEE EEVALUATION - FORM #FU

Name: Charles Ergen
Title: Chairman & CEO
Overall score: 4.4

Counter-productive Personal Traits: Doesn't work well with others.

Supporting documents to file -
MicroSoft
Gilat
FCC
DOJ
That wimpy French company(???)
Dealer feedback file
Customer Service file

Vivendi.....

Add:
YES Network
NY DMA Customers
Charlie Chat viewers
The Dolan Family
Dishplayer owners

[HTguy]

Originally posted by Wunderhund
On the subject of receivers:

I have been curious to know the history of why Dish only has E* receivers available to the public, while DirecTV has several competing brands making receivers? Why hasn't E* made a similar deal to license their technology?



Actually, E* has agreements with a couple of other companies.

They OEM receivers and systems for JVC which are sold at Sears & some warehouse stores. In turn, JVC used to make a digital VCR which incorporated a model 5000 receiver. Now JVC is getting ready to introduce their own version of an HD PVR which will compete with the E* PVR921.

If you drop by Wal-Mart you will see Dish Network DP301 receivers & systems with the RCA brand, manufactured by Thompson. Presumably these were made to be compatible with the DirecTV platform as well in hopes of the merger.

E* also used to OEM receivers for Phillips and Phillips had a few big-screen TVs with Dish NW receivers built in.

But basically the idea is to keep prices down on E* eqmt & tech support by making them "in-house" (actually, they use various assembly plants around the world) vs. having independent manufacturers doing their own versions & getting some kind of mark-up on them.
Dish does have a non-PVR successor to the 6000 in the works. It will include a built-in 8VSB tuner, DVI-CP/HDCP, and maybe Firewire. It will also feature a newer/faster guide, probably comparable to that found on the 301. The unofficial designation is 811 with availability by end 2003, but I personally don't expect to see it until 2Q 2004. It should be significantly cheaper than the 6000, probably $299-$399 fully equipped with both 8PSK and OTA.
The prototype they showed at CES does not include 8VSB for OTAs. It designed to go with TVs that have their own ATSC tuners built in like higher-end models today and the rest mandated for 2006. It did have 8PSK, of course, and IEEE1394 (AKA "Firewire") presumably to mate up with Mitsubishi HDTVs & JVC HD VCRs. Oddly, it did not have a DVI output either but, again, all I saw was a prototype. I have heard the rumors that it is projected to go for $399.

[Bob Haller]

If you ask me if its not PVR its obsolete......

[Jerry 42]

Some wise old man once said everything is for sale at the right price.

[Kagato]

Just because it has RCA's or JVC's label on it doesn't mean either company actually made the STB. When Radio Shack switched to RCA labeling they had to put a label on everything in their AV as RCA. Even if a stereo was obviously a Pioneer.

With the exception of the JVC DVHS everything I've seen looks like a simple rebadging. These are usually based on a contractual requirement of the retailer, not a sign that RCA, Philips or anyone else is now flying the E* flag.

While some very compelling arguements could be made for letting vendors that already do DVB STBs make US Dish network models I think Dish has one advantage. Single point of contact. Customers don't have to get ping ponged around when something goes wrong. Sure, dish might flub tech support every now and then, but there is something compelling to being able to call one number (okay two if you need an exchange) and get help.

[Marcus S]

I am amuzed that Charlie touts E* will be the leader in HD, and in his own words the 6000 is now discontinued and the $900+ 921 will not ship to late this fall. Now that makes sense. :confused: This is the same foolishness E* pulled when the 5000 was discontinued, the 6000 finally showed up, 9 mo's later.

[Kagato]

Isn't there a 211 with firewire out due between now and the 921 release?

[JosephF]

It all comes down to business models.

D* itself is not in the hardware business (although Hughes certainly is). In this business model, vendors building receivers must either make money on the hardware itself, or get a kick-back from D* out of the programming revenue pool.

E*, by controlling both the programming and the hardware, can shift the money from one pocket to another, with all of the money still staying in-house. They can sell the hardware for less than the BOM cost and make it up on the programming side.

This also helps in the DHP program, where E* actually owns the hardware and can write off the equipment cost.

While I myself would love to see other options for E* receivers, as an investor, E* definitely has the better business model. This is demonstrated by the expectation for E* to produce positive revenue flow in 2003, something D* will not do, even with their two year headstart. Of course we won't even talk about the cable guys, who for the most part, in 20 years have not been able to do this.

[Marcus S]

Kagato, the 221 now relabeled 811 or something will not ship until this time next year. Joe, if it's a business model, it's certainly going to send many HD potentials over to *D this summer, but with no active product, what are they planning to sell in it's place? Maybe E* is using Enron accounting. To bad E* still hasn't figured that there current discontinue strategy = lost subs.

[Raymond Simonian]

I have been a Dish Network sub since January 2002. I have had the RCA 38310YX5 HDTV since that time. I initially purchased a 301 and PVR 501. That April, I was going to purchase a 6000 from a retailer but he told me to wait because he heard on a recent Charlie Chat that the PVR 921 was going to be released that summer. The only time I have been able take advantage of the wide screen in when I watch DVD's. Now that the 921 has been put off to August of 2003, I am very disgusted. The RCA has a built in Direct TV tuner. But I already have the two dishes for HDTV through Dish. Direct TV is still looking like a viable option. I may try OTA with a Channel Master4228. The Zenith Silver Sensor proved to be a waste of time even with an amplifier.

[Ken_F]

The prototype they showed at CES does not include 8VSB for OTAs. It designed to go with TVs that have their own ATSC tuners built in like higher-end models today and the rest mandated for 2006. It did have 8PSK, of course, and IEEE1394 (AKA "Firewire") presumably to mate up with Mitsubishi HDTVs & JVC HD VCRs. Oddly, it did not have a DVI output either but, again, all I saw was a prototype. I have heard the rumors that it is projected to go for $399.You are talking about the 211 receiver, which is/was intended for Mitsubishi HDTV sets that require Firewire and HAVi. I am talking about the 6000's successor coming late this year or early next year, which has a rumored designation of 811. The "811" will feature a built-in 8VSB tuner and DVI-CP/HDMI outputs.

[wiz]

Yesterday I installed my 61.5 dish for HD, I called Dish Tech support for help in setting up switches and got the best answers ever from Dish Tech support. I had already decided to buy a 6000 instead of waiting for the 921 at a cost of at least $1000 and no HAVi IEEE support for the firewire display on the Mits I have (the firewire output on the 921 is for DVHS tape only). The firewire display output receiver is going to be at least a year away, maybe longer, all because of the copy protection thing. They are not going to release a HD product with this type of output until all the copy protection things are settled, not only at Dish but Hollywood as well. So those of you like me who have been on the fence for a new HD receiver don't hold your breath. Either do like me and buy a 6000 and be happy or wait, spend at least 1K for the 921 6 months or more from now or have no HD at all. And yes, Dish will be the HD leader, that I am confident in. We can't blame them for Hollywoods worries and equipment manufactures CP format squabbles. Oh, I live in an area where the cable will never be HD (town of 3000 50 miles from any town bigger than 10000.) For me Dish has the answer, I just wish I knew what I know now 6 months ago, I would have been enjoy HD from a 6000 then.

[Nick]

Doesn't make sense to me that E* expects to be the "HD leader" with only the ultra-expensive 921 on the store shelf. IMO, they have priced themselves out of the consumer market price point. Also, not everyone who simply wants HD will want PVR capability or be willing to pay the premium price for a PVR based unit just to get HD.

There has to be something on the shelf for the average Joe who just wants a better picture. What if GM only sold Cadillacs; Ford only Lincolns?

If the whole idea is to sell programming, to expand the sub base, then E* has to have an HD receiver well below the $1k price point.

How Charlie & Gang got as far as they have with their inept marketing strategies I just don't know.

[Mike123abc]

As soon as they run down the stock of 6000 units I bet you see the low end HDTV unit come out. It should be well below the price point of the 6000. People have posted rumors here of it being $399 or so.

[Mark Holtz]

Just how much memory does a program guide take?

The biggest complaint about the non-PVR receivers is that the program guide is nearly useless as it holds only ~4 hours instead of the 44 hours. Most of this is due to the additional guide information that is the result of the inclusion of additional locals in January, 2002.

Take a look at PriceWatch. The price of a memory SIMM is fairly cheap, especially if you don't need a fast-speed SIMM.

EchoStar also need to rethink the code for the guide the receivers get. They have already compressed the guide, but they should do some filtering with the logic "if it doesn't appear to the end user, it gets trashed."

[Marcus S]

Do *D standalone receivers have the same EPG limitation? I also thought if funny that E* couldn't implement a version of all sub to the menu to prevent the EPG non sub channels from even being stored in memory.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Z'Loth
Just how much memory does a program guide take?
...
Take a look at PriceWatch. The price of a memory SIMM is fairly cheap, especially if you don't need a fast-speed SIMM.


I used to think that way, but I remember reading how on these type of devices, the additional $5 cost x # Units increases the initial outlay to build the equipment by hundreds of thousands if not millions. So many companies (especially Echostar) will avoid the initial expense just to keep initial costs down.

Then there is the built in obsolence they if annoying enough causes some to upgrade (as well as some to flee)

I've had Dish since Nov 98. And In that time I've had Two 4000s, then round two was a 4900 and a 301, round 3 is a 4900 (with a SA TiVo) and 501 (with 301 in the closet for if/when the 4900 dies).

I guess I'm one of those people Dish likes since any built in obsolescence I don't put up with for long.

[Kagato]

I'd say each channel consumes about 20KB of memory per day. If the guide only stores channels you can see than the guide data stored per channel is pretty small. On the other hand if the STB stores information about all 500 channels, then you start ballooning. That also makes asumptions that there are no indexing or other back end functions that would increase the size of the data.

Speaking of Audio Channels, I'd love to see Dish carry NPR and the BBC world service on the audio channels. Although I understand neither are cheap.

[gcutler]

What is funny is that you can get BBC World Audio service for free on the internet. You figure at that price they would be more reasonable with DBS providers...

[Mike123abc]

There is really no excuse any more for short guides. Memory prices have fallen to the point that it should not cost much at all to increase the guide length to at least the short one (2day?) that comes on 119. They probably just have not designed a box lately since memory prices crashed.

[Jerry 42]

May I second Nick's post. E* needs to make HD receivers available at various prices if they want to get & hold subs who have purchased HD sets.

In my opinion they need to make more HD channels available as well.

People who spent big $$$ on HD sets are a target market that E* should be going after quickly or some other company will.

I have two 6000s so the guy next door who just got a HD set asked me should he get E* or D* so he can get HD as the cable will not have HD for years. I told him I like E* but I can not offer an opinion because of the unknown receiver situation and programming questions. I do not know how many people are in his position but I'm sure there are some.

[Marcus S]

What is disapointing is Charlie's retraction from a year ago that they would update the 6000 to Open TV nor did they ever deliver promissed All Sub to the 5000. All excuses, around discontinue annoucements. I never expected Open TV for the 5000 but did expect All Sub. Also expected Open TV for the 6000. New lame excuse, can't fix close caption on the 6000, so no Open TV development effort.

E* Promise #1. "The more you pay for equipment the less likely you will get upgrade support for it because it's considered
esoteric class equipment and there are not enough subs that own it to make it worth our development effort to upgrade it."

E* Promise #2. "We will discontinue equipment when we feel like it, and make you wait 9 mo's for replacement offerings
@ twice the price."

It's going to be a long hot dry summer in E* HD equipment land for many, but then others are still waiting for a 4900
replacement. But hey, let's pull your Dallas D nets while where at it.

:(

"offering you less and preventing you from to receiving it" Charlie

[Ken_F]

What is disapointing is Charlie's retraction from a year ago that they would update the 6000 to Open TV Charlie never committed to OpenTV on the 6000. The hardware in the 6000 does support it (even if it does require massive software rework), so Charlie said it was possible at some point. I agree his statements could have been construed to mean we'd get OpenTV on the 6000 eventually, but that's not something he stated explicitly.

I talked with DISH a long time ago on this issue, and the verdict was that they couldn't justify the effort. Porting OpenTV to the 6000 itself was not that difficult, however, preserving all the functionality on the 6000's existing software would have been problematic, as it would mean a massive rewrite of much of the OpenTV software. For example, with a porting effort, you'd lose the signal info on every channel; also, you'd probably lose some of the local channel functionality, as much of the supporting software for the 8VSB and 8PSK modules would have to be redone.

[Mike123abc]

The 6000 has done well, yeah it does not have open TV or a long guide, but before long they will have the 2 replacements out for it. The question is if the replacement lower end box would be able to recieve OTA HDTV. The ability to recieve local channels with the 6000 is an invaluable feature for me.

I probably will never recieve LIL here (DMA #142), and with the locals doing simulcast in HDTV why would I need LIL with the great picture. Not like people in this market will have trouble getting LIL the land is fairly wide open here with just rolling hills.

If the lower end replacement box does not have an upgrade module or come with OTA HDTV that would prevent me from buying it.

[Marcus S]

Charlie has never committed to anthing that is true, he has stated on many Chats that E* engineers are investigating the possibility up until the time he then states E* has decided it is not economicaly feasible, not that they can't do it.

As far as a new standalone HD receiver by this summer I do not see it. Nothing has been announced on Customer or Retailer chats to indicate that any 6000 or other HD receiver replacement is coming any time soon other than the 921.

[Kagato]

The question is how much 6000 is already in the channel. Maybe they have enough to make it through the summer. On the other hand I've been thinking of selling my 6000 to fund my 921 purchase... If the 6000 gets hard to find it could catch a nice price on ebay until Dish get's their act together.