View Full Version : Signal Question
How do my numbers look? I don’t have any picture or channel issues. I even had a good storm blow thru wed and the sat stayed on during a good rain but finally went out during one hell of a downpour. Also is the signal meters inside these receivers as accurate as the meter the tech uses.
I live in the Detroit area if that makes a difference.
14460
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 10:07 AM
How do my numbers look? I don’t have any picture or channel issues. I even had a good storm blow thru wed and the sat stayed on during a good rain but finally went out during one hell of a downpour. Also is the signal meters inside these receivers as accurate as the meter the tech uses.
I live in the Detroit area if that makes a difference.
14460IMO, not very good. You're in need of an alignment.
The meters on the receiver are not as accurate as the meter a tech uses.
What kind of receiver did you take those measurements on?
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 10:12 AM
I just took another look, I think you might want to check your tilt as your 119 and 110 numbers are pretty low.
When was the dish installed and what model is it?
AT9 or AU9? Pictures Attaced. :)
AU9
http://pimages.solidsignal.com/AU9-S.gif
AT9
http://www.2000networks.com/accessories/dishes_lnbs/images/directv_at9.jpg
Those are very peculiar numbers. It would be hard to imagine how you could have 103(c)'s in the 80's, 110's in the 60's, and 119's in the 80's, even if the tilt is out, which I agree with RE is the first thing I would check, because your 119's don't match your 101's.
I would also check the 110's again with the BBC('s) removed to see if that might explain the really low 110 signals. BBC's do strange things to the 110's sometimes. That might explain why they're in the 60's. I would have expected them to be a little down with those 119's, but not that much.
mosoccer
07-04-08, 11:48 AM
I agree to check the tilt of the dish first to try to bring up the 110 and 119 signals and go from there...
PicaKing
07-04-08, 11:49 AM
He has no channel issues, not even with a rainstorm. Stop trying to fix something thats not broken and leave it alone.
I have a AU9 dish and a HR21(black) receiver for my main tv
Now after I read your responses I went and checked my other hd receiver I have (just a standard hd receiver) and here are those numbers
101
94 to 100
110
94 to 96
119
94 to 98
99b
94
103a
94
103b
94 to 96
Like I said I’m not having any problems on any channels.
mcbeevee
07-04-08, 02:36 PM
I have a AU9 dish and a HR21(black) receiver for my main tv
Were the original numbers in your spreadsheet for both tuners on the HR21? Sounds like either a cabling problem or a tuner problem on the HR21.
:flag:
Were the original numbers in your spreadsheet for both tuners on the HR21? Sounds like either a cabling problem or a tuner problem on the HR21.
:flag:
Yes the numbers from the pdf are from my hr21. Both tuners are pretty close so I only posted one set. I’m not having any issues with my hr21. Not sure if I should mess with it.
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 04:05 PM
Yes the numbers from the pdf are from my hr21. Both tuners are pretty close so I only posted one set. I’m not having any issues with my hr21. Not sure if I should mess with it.Your other receiver looks spot on. How long are your cable runs between the dish to your HR21?
Do you have a multi-switch of some flavor or SWM?
To the poster that commented that we shouldn't fix something that's not broken. It's not broken today but that doesn't change the fact that somethings not working as designed. Why wouldn't you want the OP to contact DirecTV for a service call before a minor problem becomes a major one?
Your other receiver looks spot on. How long are your cable runs between the dish to your HR21?
Do you have a multi-switch of some flavor or SWM?
To the poster that commented that we shouldn't fix something that's not broken. It's not broken today but that doesn't change the fact that somethings not working as designed. Why wouldn't you want the OP to contact DirecTV for a service call before a minor problem becomes a major one?
I don’t have a multi switch. The cable run is about 40 to 50 feet. It’s the shortest run of them all. I don’t think it’s a dish out of alignment. Do you?
I did check my 110 three times again and the second time the numbers were in the upper 80’s then the third time they were back to the previous time.
So it’s probably safe to say that it doesn’t look like a satellite out of adjustment, right? Also why does my hr21 have bbc’s connected to it and my standard hd box doesn’t? What are bbc’s and why do I need them?
PicaKing
07-04-08, 06:11 PM
Your other receiver looks spot on. How long are your cable runs between the dish to your HR21?
To the poster that commented that we shouldn't fix something that's not broken. It's not broken today but that doesn't change the fact that somethings not working as designed. Why wouldn't you want the OP to contact DirecTV for a service call before a minor problem becomes a major one?
What's he gonna tell them--my system is working fine--come fix it?????
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 07:07 PM
So it’s probably safe to say that it doesn’t look like a satellite out of adjustment, right? Also why does my hr21 have bbc’s connected to it and my standard hd box doesn’t? What are bbc’s and why do I need them?What make and model is your other HD receiver?
What make and model is your other HD receiver?
H23-600
Does this still seam like a sat signal issue? Or could it be the bbc's on the HR21
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 07:15 PM
H23-600
Does this still seam like a sat signal issue? Or could it be the bbc's on the HR21The H23-600 has BBC's built in. It could be bad BBC's.
Try this, remove the BBC's on the HR21 and then check the signal strength on 110 several times and see if your numbers come close to what you see on the H23? I suppose you could also swap the 2 boxes and see if the problem follows.
Just don't forget to put the BBC's back. :)
The H23-600 has BBC's built in. It very well could be bad BBC's
Try this, remove the BBC's on the HR21 and then check the signal strength on 110 several times and see if your numbers come close to what you see on the H23?
Just don't forget to put the BBC's back. :)
I will check and report back. Also what are the bbc's for?
Radio Enginerd
07-04-08, 07:20 PM
I will check and report back. Also what are the bbc's for?BBC stands for B-Band Converter.
The high level explanation: They're needed to receive all the new MPEG-4 based HD content from 103c (DirecTV10) and 99c (when live next month DirecTV 11).
The more detailed explanation: Since the 500 MHz frequency block (18.3-18.8 GHz) used by DirecTV-10 and DirecTV-11 on downlink were not intended for DBS broadcasting, existing equipment cannot receive them without a B-Band Converter (BBC). DirecTV supplies BBCs with all 5-LNB Ku/Ka-band dish systems.
The satellite signal from DirecTV-10 is downconverted at the dish to the frequency range of 250-750 MHz, called "Ka-lo". At the receiver when necessary, the BBC in response to a control signal from the receiver blocks any original "Ka-hi" signals between 1650-2150 MHz. Then up-converts the 250-750 MHz signals to this range which is expected by current receivers.[4][5] Because this frequency range conflicts with terrestrial broadcast frequencies. Any off-the-air (OTA) diplexors.[6] must be placed at some point after the BBC.
When I take the bbc's off do I need to restart the receiver?
Also I did do the test on channel 480&481 and it said bbc's are confirmed working.
mcbeevee
07-04-08, 08:49 PM
When I take the bbc's off do I need to restart the receiver?
It is ok to remove (or add) the bbc's w/o a restart.
:)
You don't usually need to restart the receiver. The BBC's are confirmed working on 103(c), but that doesn't mean they're not effecting 110 and other satellites. So check all your satellite sig's except 103(c) with the BBC's temporarily removed.
Is your HR21 and HR21-100? (See the label inside the access card door on the lower front right or on the bottom of the receiver.)
Are the cables to your HR21 new cables, or are they pre-existing? You certainly don't have a dish alignment problem with those signals on the H23-600.
Signals in the 60's are just ~5-10 points above where you start to lose your picture on the 110 channels: CH's 70, 71, and 73-78. So you have very little rain-fade margin with signals that low.
There's some problem between the dish and the receiver which is causing this, since your signals are fine on the other receiver. It could, for example, be a bad grounding block pass-through outside the house, low quality wall plate pass-throughs, etc. I think I'd haul that H23 to the other location, hook it up straight to one of your HR21 antenna lines, and see what kind of signals you get at that location.
NYCEGUY01
07-04-08, 09:22 PM
If you tune to channel 480 and then 481 your ird will determine if the bbc is working properly. It will either give you a test message or searching message
It is an HR21-100. I have all new cable, blocks and all. I just took the bbc’s off and re-connected the coax back up and up went the signals.
Tuner 1 and 2 are the same
110
86 to 88
119
92 to 98
Does this sound like the bbc's?
If you tune to channel 480 and then 481 your ird will determine if the bbc is working properly. It will either give you a test message or searching message
Look at post #20
NYCEGUY01
07-04-08, 09:34 PM
OOPS. Looks like I scrolled a little to fast. lol
It is an HR21-100. I have all new cable, blocks and all. I just took the bbc’s off and re-connected the coax back up and up went the signals.
Tuner 1 and 2 are the same
110
86 to 88
119
92 to 98
Does this sound like the bbc's?
That's a little different from 57/64/64, and now looks like "normal" mis-alignment, although we know from the H23 sig's you have no mis-alignment. The HR21-100's do read a little lower than other receivers for some reason. And mine, like yours, had a problem with the BBC's in the line getting signals above the 50's and 60's on 110, although this appears to be fairly rare. (They were in the 90's with no BBC's.) It did cause loss of reception, however, on one of my tuners, which often was down in the high 40's on one specific 110 transponder. I was able to at least get them all up into the 70's by swapping out the BBC's. The new Series 3 (black) BBC's which came with the receiver were the worst of the lot. After going through 3 other sets of BBC's, I finally found a set of the older Series 2 (gray) BBC's which were the best of the lot.
I think all of this then is probably a receiver issue, and probably the only solution is to swap it out for another one, if you have reception problems during rain/snow of any magnitude on CH 70, 71, and/or 73-78. Or you could just wait a bit, because fairly soon all those channels should be moved to the new mpeg4 satellites, 99(c) and 103(c). I'd still like to know as a final check what your signals are like using the H23 at the HR21 location.
Should I just order another set of bbc's and try them. Are they free from D*? Can I just use there online form to order them?
mcbeevee
07-05-08, 08:18 AM
Should I just order another set of bbc's and try them. Are they free from D*? Can I just use there online form to order them?
The BBC's are free. Just go to the following page and enter how many BBC's you need:
Directv B-Band Converter Request (http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp)
:)
The BBC's are free. Just go to the following page and enter how many BBC's you need:
Directv B-Band Converter Request (http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp)
:)
Thanks:icon_bb:
Well I ordered some and will test when I get them. Does everybody agree that the low signal on the 110 & 119 is related to the bbc's?
Radio Enginerd
07-05-08, 11:59 AM
Well I ordered some and will test when I get them. Does everybody agree that the low signal on the 110 & 119 is related to the bbc's?I'm not 100% but I think it's an excellent starting point.
Since you're not having any issues right now, it can't hurt to give it a try.
I'm not 100% but I think it's an excellent starting point.
Since you're not having any issues right now, it can't hurt to give it a try.
Even though I don’t have any issues with channels, I would just like to see my signals a little higher on those sat’s.
Thanks RE. Just out of curiosity if it isn’t the bbc’s then what would cause the 110 & 119 signal to be lower when the bbc’s are connected verses disconnected. Maybe my HR-21?
Well I ordered some and will test when I get them. Does everybody agree that the low signal on the 110 & 119 is related to the bbc's?
The usual issue with 110 and 119 is trees.
The usual issue with 110 and 119 is trees.
Trees are not an issue. Wide open line of site.
Pic
14484
curt8403
07-05-08, 02:00 PM
Trees are not an issue. Wide open line of site.
Pic
14484
(joking) maybe it is cows.
Seriously, the BBC will cause a tiny drop of signal (1 or 2 points)
Have you checked dishpointer for your area to see direction, in some parts of the country, the 119 is too close to the horizon.
(joking) maybe it is cows.
Seriously, the BBC will cause a tiny drop of signal (1 or 2 points)
Have you checked dishpointer for your area to see direction, in some parts of the country, the 119 is too close to the horizon.
If that was the case why do the signals rise a good 25 points with the bbc’s removed?
Trees are not an issue. Wide open line of site.
Tall cows ? :)
Tall cows ? :)
Yea I think this is the one.
14485
curt8403
07-05-08, 02:19 PM
If that was the case why do the signals rise a good 25 points with the bbc’s removed?
it sounds like you might have some bad BBCs I would call and order some new ones
it sounds like you might have some bad BBCs I would call and order some new ones
I would call also (when you have 30-60 minutes of spare time). I ordered a pair using the D* web site about a month ago, and the order seems to have fallen into a black hole (even though site confirmed the order). CSR should be able to get them out the next day.
I would call also (when you have 30-60 minutes of spare time). I ordered a pair using the D* web site about a month ago, and the order seems to have fallen into a black hole (even though site confirmed the order). CSR should be able to get them out the next day.
What do you tell them on the phone. Do I have to go through the whole trouble-shooting thing with them? Which department do I talk too?
What do you tell them on the phone. Do I have to go through the whole trouble-shooting thing with them? Which department do I talk too?
Just tell them what you know. 110/119 signal issues w/ bbc that clear up with bbc removed. You want to try replacing the bbcs first before requesting a truck roll.
Who you talk to is a crap shoot. I would try to call during a weekday when the US is awake and working. Some CSRs are undertrained and only know to run the troubleshooting flowchart. But many also show they have two brains that rub together and are a joy to work with.
What do you tell them on the phone. Do I have to go through the whole trouble-shooting thing with them? Which department do I talk too?
as 2dogz said, tell them what you know. Ask to speak with the technical dept, if you arent in it already. Yes, they will make you troubleshoot. But usually that just means checking the cables.
They can send out BBCs for free, but unless your within 90 days of install or have the Protection Plan, the Service Call for a tech to come out is going to be 79.99
Radio Enginerd
07-05-08, 04:18 PM
Thanks RE. Just out of curiosity if it isn’t the bbc’s then what would cause the 110 & 119 signal to be lower when the bbc’s are connected verses disconnected. Maybe my HR-21?It could possibly be the LNB. The LNB has a mini multi switch built into it that could be failing.
A simple test you can do to rule out the LNB...
Disconnect the H23 and connect it to each coax lead that current supplies the HR21. If the H23 has the same signal (+/- a few points) while connected to the same coax that feeds the HR21, the LNB is fine. If you have time give it a try.
Radio Enginerd
07-05-08, 04:18 PM
Trees are not an issue. Wide open line of site.
Pic
14484Nice cows!
Radio Enginerd
07-05-08, 04:21 PM
If that was the case why do the signals rise a good 25 points with the bbc’s removed?There are a lot of different opinions but if you're loosing 25 points of signal with a BBC connected then the BBC is definitly having an issue.
Bottom line... There should not be that much insertion loss with the BBC connected.
It could possibly be the LNB. The LNB has a mini multi switch built into it that could be failing.
A simple test you can do to rule out the LNB...
Disconnect the H23 and connect it to each coax lead that current supplies the HR21. If the H23 has the same signal (+/- a few points) while connected to the same coax that feeds the HR21, the LNB is fine. If you have time give it a try.
I suggested that he do that at posts #22 and #28, but so far he hasn't tried that. It is a PIA to move receivers around.
As I stated above, and as you can see from my setup below, I have this exact issue on my HR21-100. I was one of the original 25 members who tested this receiver before it was shipped by DirecTV, and I was the only one of the 25 who had this weird BBC/110 issue. I noticed it right away, because my signals on tuner 2 were so low that I was losing the channels carried by 110/tp 8. Notice that erict's 110/tp 8 is also the worst at 57. Mine was ~47, yet when I pulled the BBC, it went up to the 90's.
The 110 signals jumped a good bit with different BBC's, as reported above, and showed an unusual amount of difference from one BBC to another. Yet the best set I could dig out of the junk box were only able to improve the 110's to the high 70's.
So while this problem may indeed be due to some peculiar interaction with the specific LNB, which is not unheard of (mine is a WistronNeweb Rev. 1), it would probably be corrected by replacing the receiver. BTW, the BBC's which originally gave readings in the 40's and 50's on the 110 on my HR21-100 gave readings in the low 90's when attached to an HR20-700 on the exact same antenna lines.
Although erict's 60's on the 110 are currently not causing any problems, any further weather-related reductions are likely to cause loss of signal on the 110 channels, which on my -100 occured below ~55.
Again, and as reported elsewhere here by other members who are also installers and have seen a lot of these, the signals strengths shown by the software on the -100's are a little less in general than all the other HR's. I'd still be wanting to do a little tweaking on the alignment, AZ, EL, and tilt, to see if the numbers in general could be improved.
I doubt if he'll be getting a truck roll under install warranty or otherwise, unless he starts actually losing channels in bad weather, although all of his 110 signals are below minimum spec of 70. It's just a matter of time.
That's a little different from 57/64/64, and now looks like "normal" mis-alignment, although we know from the H23 sig's you have no mis-alignment. The HR21-100's do read a little lower than other receivers for some reason. And mine, like yours, had a problem with the BBC's in the line getting signals above the 50's and 60's on 110, although this appears to be fairly rare. (They were in the 90's with no BBC's.) It did cause loss of reception, however, on one of my tuners, which often was down in the high 40's on one specific 110 transponder. I was able to at least get them all up into the 70's by swapping out the BBC's. The new Series 3 (black) BBC's which came with the receiver were the worst of the lot. After going through 3 other sets of BBC's, I finally found a set of the older Series 2 (gray) BBC's which were the best of the lot.
I think all of this then is probably a receiver issue, and probably the only solution is to swap it out for another one, if you have reception problems during rain/snow of any magnitude on CH 70, 71, and/or 73-78. Or you could just wait a bit, because fairly soon all those channels should be moved to the new mpeg4 satellites, 99(c) and 103(c). I'd still like to know as a final check what your signals are like using the H23 at the HR21 location.
Hey stew I was just re-reading this post and I missed this part the first time. When they do move these channels will anything be on the 110 & 119 anymore? Is the 99c a new one?
They have the Spanish language channel package on the 119. I don't know what will be done with 110 and 119 after they start using DirecTV11 (99(c)/(a)). It's currently parked in a testing spot about one degree from 99 after a successful launch back in March, and it should be on-line later in the summer/early fall. It will basically nearly double the current HD capacity of DirecTV.
They have the Spanish language channel package on the 119. I don't know what will be done with 110 and 119 after they start using DirecTV11 (99(c)/(a)). It's currently parked in a testing spot about one degree from 99 after a successful launch back in March, and it should be on-line later in the summer/early fall. It will basically nearly double the current HD capacity of DirecTV.
Like you said in a couple of months I wont have to worry about my signals on 110 & 119 because those channels will be moved, right?
ironwood
07-08-08, 12:00 AM
Didnt we discuss this issue before? A 3 ft cables between receiver and BBCs could do the trick?
Tiger62
07-08-08, 06:47 AM
The BBC's are free. Just go to the following page and enter how many BBC's you need:
Directv B-Band Converter Request (http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp)
:)
Just curious...
I went to the Directv website and did several searches, but that BBC order form never showed up. How did you find it?
I haven't read a report in many months that members who used that on-line form actually received their BBC's. It worked at one time, but I recommend members order their BBC's by telephone, since you're pretty much guaranteed to receive them in 2 days that way. The on-line process, after working initially, then caused a number of posts that the BBC's never arrived. Unless someone else can report that it's currently working, I wouldn't use it.
Didnt we discuss this issue before? A 3 ft cables between receiver and BBCs could do the trick?
Never heard of this before. Does this solve the issue I'm having?
Just curious...
I went to the Directv website and did several searches, but that BBC order form never showed up. How did you find it?
It's located under "what you need for HD". I used this form but I also called a csr after.
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