View Full Version : Improper Grounding of Satellite Dish
Directv came to my home two weeks ago to install a Slimline 5 LNB satellite Dish. The technician, who was a sub-contractor from Directv called Mass Tech or Advanced Technologies, located here in South Florida, who are the only ones located in my area, came to my home to perform the install of the dish. To make a long story short, the technician ran the ground wire to a metal strip that is used to hold up my Hurricane Shutters and now I am learning that it was an improper ground technique since this metal strip does not touch the ground; it is attached to the side of my home.
My old Directv Dish used to be grounded to a metal water faucet. He put the new dish further away and choose not to run the ground wire to it. Now I find out that at 24 feet or so would've been too far to run the wire anyways. At the time I had a DISH dish located where the old Directv dish was and he didn't want to take it down like I asked him and he never informed me about the grounding procedures. I told him he can try to use the hurricane metal strip to ground it and he listened to me which apparently he should never have done. He was also in a rush and wanted to get to his next appointment.
Directv visited me yesterday, now 2 weeks later to perform an inspection of the installation who advised me of the improper grounding technique that was used. They will schedule someone to come to my home to perform a proper installation!! I hear that an improper ground can cause the receivers to fry as well as my tv's and can cause possible fires.
Can anyone out there relate to this?
Has anyone ever experienced an issue caused from an imporper ground?
It is pathetic that a professional installer would do this but luckily it was noticed when it was.
I welcome all comments about this thread and thank you for your time.
Mertzen
07-11-08, 07:29 AM
Here in the NYC market I'd say anywhere between 80 to 90 percent of jobs aren't grounded. I guess you can be glad a QC was done.
Tiger62
07-11-08, 08:25 AM
First of all... If you didn't know anything about grounding, you shouldn't have given him any advice about grounding! :)
I think very few Directv installers know ANYTHING about proper grounding methods... ie. When I installed my system, I drove an 8-foot ground rod into the ground right below my dish, which I mounted on the chimney, about 15 feet above ground. I ran a #8 copper wire from the dish mounting foot to the grounding rod. I also ran a #8 copper wire from the coax ground block (where the coax enters the attic) to that same ground rod. The NEC regulations specify that my ground rod must be "bonded" to my electrical service ground, 46 feet away, with #6 copper wire. I didn't have any #6 copper wire "lying around" (@ $0.80 per foot), so I decided that I'd let Directv take care of that little matter :)
Well, when the Directv installers came, all they had to do was plunk down the one receiver, connect the cables, run that wire and activate the system. (I had mounted the dish, aimed it, and run all of the cables.) They had absolutely no knowledge of how to bond the two grounds and the largest wire they had on the truck was #12! I told them to just forget it and I'd take care of it. The next day, I bought $35 worth of #6 copper and bonded it properly. My peace of mind was worth it!
BattleZone
07-11-08, 09:08 AM
I didn't have any #6 copper wire "lying around" (@ $0.80 per foot), so I decided that I'd let Directv take care of that little matter :)
No DirecTV installer anywhere is going to have #6 wire, probably ever.
Installers are supposed to ground the dish if the cables pass within 20' of a valid ground source. The installer should install a ground block which all lines from the dish pass through, and use 10 ga solid-copper wire from the ground block to the ground source.
If there is no ground source close enough to where the dish is, it will not be grounded. The cost of a ground rod and #6 wire to bond it to the house ground is, itself, more than the installer will get paid for the entire install (probably a LOT more). DirecTV does not supply ground rods or #6 wire to anyone, not even in-house techs. Considering these are "free" installs, DirecTV makes a pretty reasonable attempt to ground. If DirecTV forced installers to ground EVERY system to NEC code, the cost would end the "free" install, because there are lots of houses where the cost to ground would be $200-300 or more.
Also, a healthy amount of systems that are "grounded" to water pipes are not really grounded at all. Water pipes are often used when nothing else is available, because it makes people feel better, but in almost no case is that an NEC-approved ground, and quite often those pipes are not connected to the house ground, so ground loops are possible. In that case, it is better NOT to be connected to the pipes.
From the Directv web site.
The installer will only use DIRECTV-approved materials, including RG-6 cable, switches and connectors, and will connect your receiver(s) to your TV and DVR, VCR or DVD player. The installer will also connect your receiver(s) to a phone line in your home and will ground your system to meet local/NEC requirements.
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4720076
I can relate. I am currently fighting to get the DTV installer to fix the installation. If they don't agree to put the dish where it is not being partially blocked by the roof and properly grounded it I'm just going to have it removed.
Tiger62
07-11-08, 12:08 PM
No DirecTV installer anywhere is going to have #6 wire, probably ever.
Installers are supposed to ground the dish if the cables pass within 20' of a valid ground source. The installer should install a ground block which all lines from the dish pass through, and use 10 ga solid-copper wire from the ground block to the ground source.
If there is no ground source close enough to where the dish is, it will not be grounded. The cost of a ground rod and #6 wire to bond it to the house ground is, itself, more than the installer will get paid for the entire install (probably a LOT more). DirecTV does not supply ground rods or #6 wire to anyone, not even in-house techs. Considering these are "free" installs, DirecTV makes a pretty reasonable attempt to ground. If DirecTV forced installers to ground EVERY system to NEC code, the cost would end the "free" install, because there are lots of houses where the cost to ground would be $200-300 or more.
Also, a healthy amount of systems that are "grounded" to water pipes are not really grounded at all. Water pipes are often used when nothing else is available, because it makes people feel better, but in almost no case is that an NEC-approved ground, and quite often those pipes are not connected to the house ground, so ground loops are possible. In that case, it is better NOT to be connected to the pipes.
Rationalization is the key to mental health.
NYCEGUY01
07-11-08, 12:12 PM
I can relate. I am currently fighting to get the DTV installer to fix the installation. If they don't agree to put the dish where it is not being partially blocked by the roof and properly grounded it I'm just going to have it removed.
I understand wanting it grounded properly. I read your other thread and your dish is NOT bieng blocked by your roof. If you just want it moved say so. There is no good reason to move your dish at least on a functionality basis.
NYCEGUY01
07-11-08, 12:15 PM
No DirecTV installer anywhere is going to have #6 wire, probably ever.
Installers are supposed to ground the dish if the cables pass within 20' of a valid ground source. The installer should install a ground block which all lines from the dish pass through, and use 10 ga solid-copper wire from the ground block to the ground source.
If there is no ground source close enough to where the dish is, it will not be grounded. The cost of a ground rod and #6 wire to bond it to the house ground is, itself, more than the installer will get paid for the entire install (probably a LOT more). DirecTV does not supply ground rods or #6 wire to anyone, not even in-house techs. Considering these are "free" installs, DirecTV makes a pretty reasonable attempt to ground. If DirecTV forced installers to ground EVERY system to NEC code, the cost would end the "free" install, because there are lots of houses where the cost to ground would be $200-300 or more.
Also, a healthy amount of systems that are "grounded" to water pipes are not really grounded at all. Water pipes are often used when nothing else is available, because it makes people feel better, but in almost no case is that an NEC-approved ground, and quite often those pipes are not connected to the house ground, so ground loops are possible. In that case, it is better NOT to be connected to the pipes.
Its right in the HSP contract. EVERY install MUST be grounded to NEC and local code. Any QC done by DTV will get a flagrant fail if the system is not grounded properly. It is up to the techs to make sure the wires pass close enough to get a proper ground.
AntAltMike
07-11-08, 12:28 PM
As far as I know, if an installer uses the 17 gauge copper clad steel groundwire that is attached to the coax, and peels it off at the first convenient ground point it passes, DirecTV would consider that to be OK.
Water pipes can no longer be used in residential installations unless the attachment point is within five feet of where they enter the building. There are exceptions for using them in commercial buildings, provided the plumbing is professionally maintained and substantially exposed.
I've only used 6 gauge wire to bond a ground once in about twenty years of satelite antenna installation.
joe diamond
07-11-08, 12:30 PM
Its right in the HSP contract. EVERY install MUST be grounded to NEC and local code. Any QC done by DTV will get a flagrant fail if the system is not grounded properly. It is up to the techs to make sure the wires pass close enough to get a proper ground.
If they inspected every job there would be no jobs installed. No ground = no pay = no installers.
Joe
If they inspected every job there would be no jobs installed. No ground = no pay = no installers.If all jobs would fail inspection, they need to review their model. Doing things right shouldn't be subject to convenience considerations.
If there is no ground source close enough to where the dish is, it will not be grounded. The cost of a ground rod and #6 wire to bond it to the house ground is, itself, more than the installer will get paid for the entire install (probably a LOT more). DirecTV does not supply ground rods or #6 wire to anyone, not even in-house techs. Considering these are "free" installs, DirecTV makes a pretty reasonable attempt to ground. If DirecTV forced installers to ground EVERY system to NEC code, the cost would end the "free" install, because there are lots of houses where the cost to ground would be $200-300 or more.
Don't forget that installing ground rod and connecting to the house ground is a modification of the house's electrical system and requires a building permit and licensed electrician in most locations. More dollars and time.
Also, a healthy amount of systems that are "grounded" to water pipes are not really grounded at all. Water pipes are often used when nothing else is available, because it makes people feel better, but in almost no case is that an NEC-approved ground, and quite often those pipes are not connected to the house ground, so ground loops are possible. In that case, it is better NOT to be connected to the pipes.
Many homes built in the 70s and earlier use copper water pipes for ground. NEC was changed when PVC pipe came into use and how requires ground rod. Just go to the main electrical panel and trace its ground to find out. Water pipe grounding as original construction works okay. Just clamping your ground wire on any old copper pipe without knowing is a no no. Usually, the electric service meter is a good exterior ground point. You'll see that the telephone company often makes use of it and they are well trained. If you do what they did, you should be safe for the most part (I know, always exceptions).
Its right in the HSP contract. EVERY install MUST be grounded to NEC and local code. Any QC done by DTV will get a flagrant fail if the system is not grounded properly. It is up to the techs to make sure the wires pass close enough to get a proper ground.
It's in the contract because it's the law. If it's not done, guess where the liability falls.
joe diamond
07-11-08, 02:06 PM
If all jobs would fail inspection, they need to review their model. Doing things right shouldn't be subject to convenience considerations.
Harsh,
In satellite land there is no one correct way........if you can get enough folks to nod yes enough you can produce a whole new policy. And a policy is always right.
Just for fun try to ground a second floor apartment. The electric bond for the building could be down one floor and at the other end of the block. There are many DTV customers in apartments. How many do you think will get their account turned off because they are not grounded?
Joe
houskamp
07-11-08, 02:35 PM
Don't forget that installing ground rod and connecting to the house ground is a modification of the house's electrical system and requires a building permit and licensed electrician in most locations. More dollars and time.
Interesting point.. Bet that in a lot of areas it would require a licenced electricion to mess with any panel ground..
Other thought is that when I dug through the NEC code I didn't realy find much for ant/sat grounding.. it all seemed to apply to "service panels".. and we're not trying to ground a 200amp panel..
AntAltMike
07-11-08, 02:59 PM
.. it all seemed to apply to "service panels".. and we're not trying to ground a 200amp panel..
I have been told many times over the years that the term "service panel" as it is used in this context, actually means the box that houses the electric meter. I think it is more commonly called the "service entrance".
Many years ago, when a city electrical inspector was intent on making a big-dish installation of mine unbearable, he said I definitely could not ground to the main breaker box, which is what lay people commonly refer to as the service panel.
joe diamond
07-11-08, 03:17 PM
I have been told many times over the years that the term "service panel" as it is used in this context, actually means the box that houses the electric meter. I think it is more commonly called the "service entrance".
Many years ago, when a city electrical inspector was intent on making a big-dish installation of mine unbearable, he said I definitely could not ground to the main breaker box, which is what lay people commonly refer to as the service panel.
BUT if you cross into PG County, MD the electric inspector I met stressed....."you people are not certified to touch anything....we have a lug coming down from the box that is connected to the ground bond. Hook your ground stuff to that but don't open the box!" However, since all that stuff was inside the building it didn"t help with the ground block outside the entrance idea.
So they changed the policy.
Joe
Interesting point.. Bet that in a lot of areas it would require a licenced electricion to mess with any panel ground..
Other thought is that when I dug through the NEC code I didn't realy find much for ant/sat grounding.. it all seemed to apply to "service panels".. and we're not trying to ground a 200amp panel..
This link is a little out of date but it might help find the correct sections of the code.
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm
Interesting point.. Bet that in a lot of areas it would require a licenced electricion to mess with any panel ground..
Other thought is that when I dug through the NEC code I didn't realy find much for ant/sat grounding.. it all seemed to apply to "service panels".. and we're not trying to ground a 200amp panel..
No, but the NEC does address "any" telecommunications line that penetrates to the interior of the building, be it telephone, cable, sat dish, OTA antenna. FIOS fiber optic might be exempt (if there is no metallic cable inside for tensil strength). For your reading pleasure, see NEC 2005, article 810.21. :)
In satellite land there is no one correct way........if you can get enough folks to nod yes enough you can produce a whole new policy. And a policy is always right.The NEC applies pretty much everywhere in the US. Some jurisdictions have more stringent requirements.Just for fun try to ground a second floor apartment.That's what MDU installations are for. Just because someone needs or wants something desperately doesn't mean they are somehow entitled to it to the exclusion of codes and regulations. The owners of the apartments need to reconcile how the customer is going to get access to a bonding point as part of the binding OTARD requirements.How many do you think will get their account turned off because they are not grounded?The issue isn't who gets turned off. The issue is who shouldn't have been installed in the first place.
houskamp
07-11-08, 04:04 PM
another thought: just what is the extra lead on twin rg6 for? too small to meet any code..
just another can of worms :D
Mertzen
07-11-08, 04:07 PM
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
Mertzen
07-11-08, 04:08 PM
another thought: just what is the extra lead on twin rg6 for? too small to meet any code..
just another can of worms :D
That is the #17 wire. Most important one of them all. It actually forms the bond between ODU and groundblock. Without it there is no ground. Unless you run #10 straight from the dish.
houskamp
07-11-08, 04:08 PM
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
lot better than the mess in the lower right corner of that pic :lol:
Mertzen
07-11-08, 04:09 PM
lot better than the mess in the lower right corner of that pic :lol:
Yop, that's froum our good friend, the cable guy :lol:
(if there is no metallic cable inside for tensil strength).The aramid strengthening fibers in a quality FO cable are much stronger than steel (by a factor of five).
joe diamond
07-11-08, 04:46 PM
The NEC applies pretty much everywhere in the US. Some jurisdictions have more stringent requirements.That's what MDU installations are for. Just because someone needs or wants something desperately doesn't mean they are somehow entitled to it to the exclusion of codes and regulations. The owners of the apartments need to reconcile how the customer is going to get access to a bonding point as part of the binding OTARD requirements.The issue isn't who gets turned off. The issue is who shouldn't have been installed in the first place.
Harsh,
You are correct and I agree with everything you have said. Still, in satellite land, IF an installer refuses to complete an installation for any reason another installer will be sent. Grounding and dish location and cable route and phone connections are all just little blips on the screen. The customer wants that picture and DTV (and DISH) are in the business of selling it. If something goes wrong there are enough layers of subcontractors to insulate the stock holders.
Joe
BattleZone
07-11-08, 05:56 PM
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
Darn nice work. We're I to give any criticism, it would be that the drip loops for the wall penetrations on the left could have been a little lower, and I'd have put a terminating cap (WITH THE STINGER REMOVED!) on the extra port on the ground block, since it is exposed to the weather. But that is really just nitpicking; it is indeed better than at least 95% of the work we see. I would hire you tomorrow.
That is the #17 wire. Most important one of them all. It actually forms the bond between ODU and groundblock. Without it there is no ground. Unless you run #10 straight from the dish.
Well, there is the ground provided by the shield of the coax cable. But that ground must be electrically isolated at the LNB/multiswitch. The steel messenger cable is used to drain static build up on the dish caused by moving air aka wind. Getting rid of the static protects the electronics in the dish, and prevent shocks to someone touching the dish (reaction could cause a fall). There is also a theory that draining the static prevents the dish/antenna from attracting lightning, but it a theory subject to much argument. Problem is you just can't prove it because lightning just can't be used in controlled experiments, too darn wild.
dothdewman
07-11-08, 06:44 PM
didnt see any weather boots on that block ;-]
houskamp
07-11-08, 06:52 PM
I think we need to get "Mythbusters" in on this :lol: they could borrow the lightning chamber again :D
thespaceghost
07-11-08, 07:06 PM
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
The two things that caught my eye;
Your service loop needs to be lowered to become a drip loop.
terminating the grounding block
Weather boots are a bit overrated. If your block/switch is going to be in the weather, i think its more important for it to be in a spot where it will dry out quickly.
Mertzen
07-11-08, 09:04 PM
Darn nice work. We're I to give any criticism, it would be that the drip loops for the wall penetrations on the left could have been a little lower, and I'd have put a terminating cap (WITH THE STINGER REMOVED!) on the extra port on the ground block, since it is exposed to the weather. But that is really just nitpicking; it is indeed better than at least 95% of the work we see. I would hire you tomorrow.
LOL. Did that after I took the pic.
Mertzen
07-11-08, 09:06 PM
didnt see any weather boots on that block ;-]
aka moisture traps. :hurah:
urnote96
07-11-08, 09:22 PM
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
Fails, those are not the correct fittings...
Technically the NEC only applies to licensed electricians. My opinion is that only licensed electricians ( no I am not one ) should do grounding that is more than 20 feet from the utility ground.
PANCHITO
07-11-08, 09:31 PM
First of all... If you didn't know anything about grounding, you shouldn't have given him any advice about grounding! :)
I think very few Directv installers know ANYTHING about proper grounding methods... ie. When I installed my system, I drove an 8-foot ground rod into the ground right below my dish, which I mounted on the chimney, about 15 feet above ground. I ran a #8 copper wire from the dish mounting foot to the grounding rod. I also ran a #8 copper wire from the coax ground block (where the coax enters the attic) to that same ground rod. The NEC regulations specify that my ground rod must be "bonded" to my electrical service ground, 46 feet away, with #6 copper wire. I didn't have any #6 copper wire "lying around" (@ $0.80 per foot), so I decided that I'd let Directv take care of that little matter :)
Well, when the Directv installers came, all they had to do was plunk down the one receiver, connect the cables, run that wire and activate the system. (I had mounted the dish, aimed it, and run all of the cables.) They had absolutely no knowledge of how to bond the two grounds and the largest wire they had on the truck was #12! I told them to just forget it and I'd take care of it. The next day, I bought $35 worth of #6 copper and bonded it properly. My peace of mind was worth it!
Do you think this is going to help you with a lightning strike.
Weather boots and compression fittings are overrated. If the fitting has an o-ring in the threaded area it will be better protected than any other fitting ( yes even if the crimp is only a hex crimp ) this comes from experience.
PANCHITO
07-11-08, 09:48 PM
Weather boots and compression fittings are overrated. If the fitting has an o-ring in the threaded area it will be better protected than any other fitting ( yes even if the crimp is only a hex crimp ) this comes from experience.
talk to the QC guys.
talk to the QC guys.
I don't have to talk to the QC guys. I set my own terms or I don't do the installs. I do both Dish and DirecTv installs. People who accept the terms they are offered are desperate for work.
Do you think this is going to help you with a lightning strike.
Lightning strike? In a lightning strike the fire department, emergency medical services, and your insurance company are your friends.
The grounding is designed to prevent the sat wiring from getting energized by the building AC power to SAVE LIFE. Lightning hits and all bets are off.
Example of how NEC relates to lightning strike:
After lightning strikes your home, the firemen entering your burnt out, partially collapsed house searching for your charred and lifeless body don't want to be electrocuted while stepping on your stupid TV cable.
First of all... If you didn't know anything about grounding, you shouldn't have given him any advice about grounding! :)
I think very few Directv installers know ANYTHING about proper grounding methods... ie. When I installed my system, I drove an 8-foot ground rod into the ground right below my dish, which I mounted on the chimney, about 15 feet above ground. I ran a #8 copper wire from the dish mounting foot to the grounding rod. I also ran a #8 copper wire from the coax ground block (where the coax enters the attic) to that same ground rod. The NEC regulations specify that my ground rod must be "bonded" to my electrical service ground, 46 feet away, with #6 copper wire. I didn't have any #6 copper wire "lying around" (@ $0.80 per foot), so I decided that I'd let Directv take care of that little matter :)
Well, when the Directv installers came, all they had to do was plunk down the one receiver, connect the cables, run that wire and activate the system. (I had mounted the dish, aimed it, and run all of the cables.) They had absolutely no knowledge of how to bond the two grounds and the largest wire they had on the truck was #12! I told them to just forget it and I'd take care of it. The next day, I bought $35 worth of #6 copper and bonded it properly. My peace of mind was worth it!
Well first off I appreciate the discussion that I have started. It really goes to show what is involved with putting up a satellite dish and how important it is to doing it properly. It also goes to show how incompetent some of the installers are out there.
Secondly, all I I thouhgt I knew about grounding was that the grounding wire had to touch a piece of metal; I had no idea that metal had to touch the ground but that is not my job; it is the installers and he should never have listened to me if he knew any better. Just because I say so doesn't make it so; he needs to do his job both legally and safely which he failed to do so. I was just guessing but he should have known and knew not to listen to me; it was his fault and his fault alone.
They are coming back to my home on Monday to fix their mistake. Hopefully it will be done correctly this time because I will not allow them to screw this one up. I will also have the QAC company come back here to verify that the install was done correctly this time or they will definitely here from me again. I let no one take advantage of me;....no one.
bearcat250
07-12-08, 05:21 AM
Just a thought on my histroy with grounding equipment. I service truck scales and they are very suseptible to lightning strikes causing damage to the load cells, which have a wafer thin wheatstone resistance bridge in them, and the electronic weight indicators. In 15 years I have never seen a truck scale take a direct hit. The surge from a lightning strike hitting a tree or telephone pole will travel through the ground and back through a ground rod into the truck scale and damaging componants of the truck scale. I have found that the best ground you have is at your source voltage from you power company. I would suggest that you ground to your service ground if possible. If not, put you ground rod away from anything that could attract surges from lightning strikes.
Mertzen
07-12-08, 05:57 AM
Fails, those are not the correct fittings...
They are D* approved. :p
RobertE
07-12-08, 06:37 AM
Well first off I appreciate the discussion that I have started. It really goes to show what is involved with putting up a satellite dish and how important it is to doing it properly. It also goes to show how incompetent some of the installers are out there.
Secondly, all I I thouhgt I knew about grounding was that the grounding wire had to touch a piece of metal; I had no idea that metal had to touch the ground but that is not my job; it is the installers and he should never have listened to me if he knew any better. Just because I say so doesn't make it so; he needs to do his job both legally and safely which he failed to do so. I was just guessing but he should have known and knew not to listen to me; it was his fault and his fault alone.
They are coming back to my home on Monday to fix their mistake. Hopefully it will be done correctly this time because I will not allow them to screw this one up. I will also have the QAC company come back here to verify that the install was done correctly this time or they will definitely here from me again. I let no one take advantage of me;....no one.
Not really sure what to say here other than wow, just wow.
Yes the installer messed up by not properly grounding you system.
HOWEVER, it was done per your instructions. You told (suggested to) him where to ground.
Had he blown you off and put you into the "know-it-all" customer category, then we would have still have an installer bashing thread, only it would be titled "Stupid Installer Didn't Listen to Me" instead.
He should have just walked away and saved himself the headache.
I need to stop now before I get too personal.
:mad:
houskamp
07-12-08, 07:33 AM
Ahh the joys of codes.. This is why it takes 3 guys and a stack of permits to install a furnass.. elect, gas, ductwork, flue...
I'll just go with the "made an honest attempt to ground it"..
when it comes down to it with nearby lightning strikes, how much is enough?
so 12ga gets you safe at 1 mile away, 10 3/4 mile,....... basicaly even 1ga won't protect against one thats close enough..
Weather boots and compression fittings are overrated. If the fitting has an o-ring in the threaded area it will be better protected than any other fitting ( yes even if the crimp is only a hex crimp ) this comes from experience.
I will second that! When I installed my last system 10 years ago, I used the crimp style connecters and I installed an o’ring in each connecter with no weather boots. The ground block was wide open to the elements with not one issue in 10 years.
gmtussb
07-12-08, 08:17 AM
I had issues with an install also, but in my case it was a local private DTV guy. Went through this about 6 months ago.
A long time ago I did my own old 2 LNB dish mounting on the side of my house where I could ground it to my house service ground rod properly. I wanted it upgrade to HD so I had my local do a consult on placing a Slimline. He said he could not get LOS at the position of my old dish and moved the Slimline to the backyard on a post. Absolutely no grounding at all. Not even a grounding block. He told me that the post in the ground was the gound.
Well I knew this was not acceptable and started doing some research. I joined this terrific site and learned a lot!
So I ended up doing my own install. I dug up the post and placed it on the side of my house where I had my old dish. The LOS was fine, I just manage to get good signal on that side. Re-ran all the wires. The wires penetrate the house under the eve, so there is no water problem there. Used a weather proof box for the grounding block. Bought a medium quality compression tool form Lowe's.
Did #6 bare copper from the dish to the service grounding rod. Only 20 feet away.
Did #12 bare copper from the gounding block to the service grounding rod where the telephone gorund is.
So everything is grounded to code and I feel good about it. I am lucky because I can have my dish close to my service grounding rod. I know others are not so lucky. I know a close lighting strike doesn't protect everything.
I learned so much from the guys on this site and I know there are a lot of opinions on the extent of grounding. But I am in the camp of grounding properly even if you have ot drive another grounding rod and bond it ti the service grounding rod.
Thanks to everyone on this site. I have added my pictures to help others in the future.
If you can put your dish within 20 feet of your service grounding rod I believe I have demonstrated an acceptable way to do things.
urnote96
07-12-08, 10:06 AM
I had issues with an install also, but in my case it was a local private DTV guy. Went through this about 6 months ago.
A long time ago I did my own old 2 LNB dish mounting on the side of my house where I could ground it to my house service ground rod properly. I wanted it upgrade to HD so I had my local do a consult on placing a Slimline. He said he could not get LOS at the position of my old dish and moved the Slimline to the backyard on a post. Absolutely no grounding at all. Not even a grounding block. He told me that the post in the ground was the gound.
Well I knew this was not acceptable and started doing some research. I joined this terrific site and learned a lot!
So I ended up doing my own install. I dug up the post and placed it on the side of my house where I had my old dish. The LOS was fine, I just manage to get good signal on that side. Re-ran all the wires. The wires penetrate the house under the eve, so there is no water problem there. Used a weather proof box for the grounding block. Bought a medium quality compression tool form Lowe's.
Did #6 bare copper from the dish to the service grounding rod. Only 20 feet away.
Did #12 bare copper from the gounding block to the service grounding rod where the telephone gorund is.
So everything is grounded to code and I feel good about it. I am lucky because I can have my dish close to my service grounding rod. I know others are not so lucky. I know a close lighting strike doesn't protect everything.
I learned so much from the guys on this site and I know there are a lot of opinions on the extent of grounding. But I am in the camp of grounding properly even if you have ot drive another grounding rod and bond it ti the service grounding rod.
Thanks to everyone on this site. I have added my pictures to help others in the future.
If you can put your dish within 20 feet of your service grounding rod I believe I have demonstrated an acceptable way to do things.
Not the correct Fittings, FAILS...
Mertzen
07-12-08, 10:40 AM
Thanks to everyone on this site. I have added my pictures to help others in the future.
If you can put your dish within 20 feet of your service grounding rod I believe I have demonstrated an acceptable way to do things.
You can't use any of the dish bolts to ground. Any ground needs its own dedicated bolt.
Not 100 percent about the bends at the ground block. Might be to tight a radius I'd put service loops there but since the ODU is close by I guess it is not the biggest problem since the lines can be replaced.
Those fittings are D* approved. Not sure why ^^^ thinks they are not.
AntAltMike
07-12-08, 10:49 AM
Technically, you can't satisfy the letter of the code by grounding the mounting plate. The code actually says you have to ground the mast. The same inspector that wouldn't let me ground to the breaker box panel also wouldn't let me connect my 6 gauge grund wire to a bracket that supported a 20', 3" sechedule 40 mast. I instead had to drill and tap the mast to take a 1/4-20 bolt
D-Bamatech
07-12-08, 11:22 AM
Technically, you can't satisfy the letter of the code by grounding the mounting plate. The code actually says you have to ground the mast. The same inspector that wouldn't let me ground to the breaker box panel also wouldn't let me connect my 6 gauge grund wire to a bracket that supported a 20', 3" sechedule 40 mast. I instead had to drill and tap the mast to take a 1/4-20 bolt
Absurd and Illogical!
... Btw Did You Get in the Tivo "Commune" ? ;)
I wonder If The Below reference to "grounding" will suffice ? :lol:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s246/Unseensimpleman/DSCI0003.jpg
AntAltMike
07-12-08, 05:01 PM
... Btw Did You Get in the Tivo "Commune" ? ;)
They started the 'Mr. and Mrs. Santa Clause commune', man"
- Cheech Marin
Nah, I gave up. If I ever have to get in, I'll create a new screen name with a Yahoo address and go from there, but it isn't important enough for me to spend any more time on it.
I will second that! When I installed my last system 10 years ago, I used the crimp style connecters and I installed an o’ring in each connecter with no weather boots. The ground block was wide open to the elements with not one issue in 10 years.
The fittings I use ( I believe they are FCONN ) com with the o-ring in them. I use a CablePro crimper ( does a 360 degree compression crimp ) and does better at keeping moisture out than the approved fittings.
D-Bamatech
07-12-08, 06:05 PM
- Cheech Marin
Nah, I gave up. If I ever have to get in, I'll create a new screen name with a Yahoo address and go from there, but it isn't important enough for me to spend any more time on it.
Ahhh.... BUT NOW You DO connect "some dots". :)
My install ground Pic,..... the tivo commune, and...... "the UNseen"..
Lol.. & BIG BIG SMILES !!
AND...Heres to Ya :icon_peac
Not the correct Fittings, FAILS...
Is this the same response in all of your 104 posts? Come on:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
gmtussb
07-12-08, 06:31 PM
Mertzen,
You are indeed correct about needing to have a seperate threaded bolt into the mast. I knew that, but I did take that one shortcut of using the dish mount bolt.
I will have to change that to a separate threaded bolt.
Thanks for your reply.
Not sure about the comment about the fittings not being correct? The box says that they pass through the proper range of wavelengths for DTV HD. They are what my installer used. Although he did not set good examples in other ways, did he?
west99999
07-12-08, 06:32 PM
They are D* approved. :p
actually they are not anymore the only approved connector is ppc :D
Mertzen
07-12-08, 07:30 PM
actually they are not anymore the only approved connector is ppc :D
What do you think those are then. PPC EX6.
RobertE
07-12-08, 08:17 PM
What do you think those are then. PPC EX6.
The ones in the pic are PPC CMP series (blue ends).
urnote96
07-12-08, 08:18 PM
What do you think those are then. PPC EX6.
nope not the correct ones....
only correct DIRECTV APPROVED FITTINGS
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/PPC-EX.htm
Technically, you can't satisfy the letter of the code by grounding the mounting plate. The code actually says you have to ground the mast. The same inspector that wouldn't let me ground to the breaker box panel also wouldn't let me connect my 6 gauge grund wire to a bracket that supported a 20', 3" sechedule 40 mast. I instead had to drill and tap the mast to take a 1/4-20 bolt
Which Edition and which section of the code states that? If you put a meter probe at the ground and another on the dish and the reading is zero ohms then it is grounded.
houskamp
07-12-08, 10:09 PM
Want to have some fun? Find an electrial job and have 3 licenced guys and an inspector tell you what is required.. You'll get 4 different "only you are alowed to do it"
Want to have some fun? Find an electrial job and have 3 licenced guys and an inspector tell you what is required.. You'll get 4 different "only you are alowed to do it"
Isn't that the truth?
AntAltMike
07-12-08, 10:39 PM
Which Edition and which section of the code states that? If you put a meter probe at the ground and another on the dish and the reading is zero ohms then it is grounded.
All editions say the mast must be grounded. No version says the bracket supporting the mast can be grounded in lieu of grounding the mast. Hey, I didn't write it. Like Faux News says, "We report. You decide"
You don't have to ground the dish either. And as far as your zero/near zero reasoning is concerned, in most systems, the resistance between the mast with no dedicated ground and the ground electrode is near zero because the coax outer conductor is mechanically and therefore electrically connected to the metal antenna structure and thus that resistance is near zero, as the coax outer conductor circuit path may have less resistance that does a conforming 17 gauge copper clad seel ground wire, but it doesn't satisfy the code.
skyviewmark1
07-12-08, 11:31 PM
Jeez.. Evertime someone brings up the grounding issue, it turns into a free for all.. Code Says do it.. And the only reason for grounding is liability issues.. Cause it won't matter how grounded or not grounded your system is.. If lightning hits it's going to be a big mess.. READ MY LIPS.. Grounding doesn't make any difference in how your system works.. NONE. NADA. In fact in some cases it causes more harm than good. That's 25 years of installing satellite dishes talking..
AntAltMike
07-12-08, 11:47 PM
There is virtually no accident liability risk in not grounding. I have never heard of anyone being successfully sued for consequential damages attributable to grounding deficinecy.
There are really ony two reasons to ground:
1. If you are a contract installer, your inspector may otherwise flunk your installation and take your commission away and,
2. If you are a little wuss named Niles or something, you can be proud of having complied with the code.
Tiger62
07-13-08, 06:14 AM
Grounding doesn't make any difference in how your system works.. NONE. NADA. In fact in some cases it causes more harm than good. That's 25 years of installing satellite dishes talking..
Sorry, but speaking as an electrical engineer with 45 years of experience in communications and satellite launch systems, you're just flat wrong...your 25 years of installing notwithstanding.
RobertE
07-13-08, 08:17 AM
and out comes the e-penises for the virtual measuring. :rolleyes:
hdtvfan0001
07-13-08, 08:32 AM
Want to have some fun? Find an electrial job and have 3 licenced guys and an inspector tell you what is required.. You'll get 4 different "only you are alowed to do it"
And either 3 or 4 of them will be wrong... :D :lol:
Not really sure what to say here other than wow, just wow.
Yes the installer messed up by not properly grounding you system.
HOWEVER, it was done per your instructions. You told (suggested to) him where to ground.
Had he blown you off and put you into the "know-it-all" customer category, then we would have still have an installer bashing thread, only it would be titled "Stupid Installer Didn't Listen to Me" instead.
He should have just walked away and saved himself the headache.
I need to stop now before I get too personal.
:mad:
If the installer knew what he was doing, don't you think he should have told me that you cannot ground to a metal bar that is not touching the ground? He should've grounded it to where it used to be but he didn't and he, the professional installer should have known better period, end of story.
Tiger62
07-13-08, 01:29 PM
and out comes the e-penises for the virtual measuring. :rolleyes:
Seriously though, is this even debatable?
Seriously though, is this even debatable?
Debatable: No
Entertaining: Yes
RobertE
07-13-08, 05:02 PM
Seriously though, is this even debatable?
Debatable until hell freezes over.
In the end, regardless of what self proclaimed internet forum experts state, there really is only one opinion that matters. That opinion belongs to the local building inspector/code enforcement officer.
Quoting the NEC is nice.
Being an EE is nice.
Having years of practical experience is nice.
The NEC has zero enforcement ability. None what so ever.
None of that means a darn thing depending on your local code. If your local code says to do X, you do X. If they, for whatever reason, specifically state not to ground an DSB sat dish, then thats what you do.
It is what it is.
Tiger62
07-13-08, 08:45 PM
None of that means a darn thing depending on your local code. If your local code says to do X, you do X. If they, for whatever reason, specifically state not to ground an DSB sat dish, then thats what you do.
Chances are, your local code defers to the NEC. Also, chances are, your local code enforcement officer is a good ol' boy bureaucrat who's worked his way up from the traffic light maintenance dept. and it's his interpretation of the code that everyone has to live with.
Just being a nitpicker....the ground from the antenna must take the shortest possible route to the ground block...bypassing the drip loop...according to NEC code... :-)
Did this one today. Now I am sure someone will have some remark on it. But I know for a fact it is better then 95% of most installs out there. :rolleyes:
RobertE
07-13-08, 09:24 PM
Chances are, your local code defers to the NEC. Also, chances are, your local code enforcement officer is a good ol' boy bureaucrat who's worked his way up from the traffic light maintenance dept. and it's his interpretation of the code that everyone has to live with.
Yep.
Thats why these debates are always so much fun to watch. Folks come out of the woodwork to state, blah, blah, blah must be done. When in the real world, it all comes down to what Gomer Pyle your local code guy thinks. ;)
houskamp
07-13-08, 09:28 PM
and in most cases, if the job is neat and clean, it will pass..
The NEC has zero enforcement ability. None what so ever.The NEC is a document. The NFPA is the agency behind it.None of that means a darn thing depending on your local code. If your local code says to do X, you do X. If they, for whatever reason, specifically state not to ground an DSB sat dish, then thats what you do.Most jurisdiction's building codes related to things electrical make reference to the NEC. The NEC has been adopted by most agencies either directly in their own code or, more commonly, by adopting code from a larger jurisdiction (ie the state building code).
It is unlikely that a jurisdiction would adopt code that conflicts with the NEC.
Scott in FL
07-14-08, 07:28 AM
Yep. Folks come out of the woodwork to state, blah, blah, blah must be done. When in the real world, it all comes down to what Gomer Pyle your local code guy thinks.
This is exactly what has always frustrated me most. Some of these "woodwork" people actually know what they're talking about, having spent years in the industry protecting towers, etc., from lightning. Whereas the local code enforcement folks often know nothing about lightning protection.
This is exactly what has always frustrated me most. Some of these "woodwork" people actually know what they're talking about, having spent years in the industry protecting towers, etc., from lightning. Whereas the local code enforcement folks often know nothing about lightning protection.
Well, your local building inspectors may be Gomers. But around the big city you'll find master electricians and plumbers, structural, civil, mechanical and electrical engineers working for the building inspectors office either directly or by contract.
Again, grounding of the dish/antenna is not about lightning. Google lightning rod and learn something about what Ben Franklin invented. Think tall buildings, national historic sites, radio towers, etc. as places to invest in lightning protection. You mention antennas and grounding and people assume it's just all about nothing but lightning.
Wonder how many pages this tread is good for? :rolleyes:
Scott in FL
07-14-08, 04:05 PM
Again, grounding of the dish/antenna is not about lightning.
You might want to start here: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/109481.pdf
And then go on to here: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/129445.pdf
Or if you don't have the time let me share just one quote from part 1: "Proper grounding is critical to lightning protection."
I know these articles very well, and much is based on NFPA Lightning Protection Code 780 (which was virtually my bible back in the 1980's).
A nearby lightning strike can induce a very damaging surge in your dish or tv antenna and coax run, and grounding has everything to do with getting that surge safely to ground (preferably not through your Direct TV receiver or new LCD High Definition tv set).
Among the many large (13 meter) satellite dishes and radio/tv broadcasting towers I was either in charge of installing or maintaining is a 1400 foot tower in Florida (the lightning capitol of the world). Believe me... grounding of that tower has everything to do with lightning!
You might want to start here: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/109481.pdf
And then go on to here: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/129445.pdf
Or if you don't have the time let me share just one quote from part 1: "Proper grounding is critical to lightning protection."
I know these articles very well, and much is based on NFPA Lightning Protection Code 780 (which was virtually my bible back in the 1980's).
A nearby lightning strike can induce a very damaging surge in your dish or tv antenna and coax run, and grounding has everything to do with getting that surge safely to ground (preferably not through your Direct TV receiver or new LCD High Definition tv set).
Among the many large (13 meter) satellite dishes and radio/tv broadcasting towers I was either in charge of installing or maintaining is a 1400 foot tower in Florida (the lightning capitol of the world). Believe me... grounding of that tower has everything to do with lightning!
I'm not arguing your investment of time, material, and money in the protection of amateur/commercial transmission towers and 13 meter dishes (big mothers) from lightning. I'm just saying, that little 10 AWG ground wire would act more like a fusible link (vaporized!) than a shunt to ground upon a lightning hit. There simply isn't that investment in lightning protection in the requirements for a home dish/antenna install.
houskamp
07-14-08, 05:55 PM
best thing to happen in a lightning strike is for the cables to your house to go like a fuse.. (or good insurance)
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