Sixto Report-D12 Status: Pre-Launch

[Sixto]

Synopsis updated 8/11/2009 - Orbit Location (TLE) update after Launch

Status of the DirecTV-12 (D12) Satellite:

D12 Launch Info:

Construction by Boeing expected to be completed by October 8th, 2009
Launch expected between 10/15/2009-11/14/2009 (per Schedule-S)
Launch service provider will be International Launch Services (ILS)
Via a Proton-M/Briz-M rocket
From Baikonaur (same as D10)
Target location is 103° W.L. (102.765°)

D12 CONUS:

16 transponders (TP9-TP24) of national bandwidth for MPEG4 HD from 103°
Each transponder supporting 5 HD channels for a total capacity of 80 national HD channels
Within the Ka-Hi (19890-20200 MHz) frequency range
Spaceway-1 (SW1) is currently allocated the entire Ka-Hi (19700-20200) frequency range, therefore it's expected that SW1 and D12 will now share the range, with SW1 using the lower end, and D12 using the higher end

D12 Local-in-Local (LiL):

10 transponders (TP15-TP24) of spot beam bandwidth for MPEG4 HD LiL from 103°
Supporting 49 spot beams
Within the Ka-Lo (18600-18800 MHz) frequency range (same as D10)
The spot beam bandwidth is for in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of either D10 or D11 (if D12 were moved to 99°)

D12 RB-2A:

Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 103°
Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range
"This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".


Progress of DirecTV-12:

02/28/2008: DirecTV Investor Meeting Presentation:"Will launch D12 because the growing importance of HD warrants its use to expand national capacity. Launch expected late 2009. Capacity for more than 200 HD national channels"

Pages 17-18: http://investor.directv.com/common/download/download.cfm?companyid=DTV&fileid=177765&filekey=dd872302-86bf-4cac-b515-33f35750ccec&filename=001_Master_Handout_InvestorDay.pdf
11/07/2008: DirecTV mention of "Proton" for D12 during an informal session. Also, "2009" mentioned.
01/07/2009: Chase Carey (DirecTV CEO) mentioned during a Citi Conference that D12 will be launched "middle" of 2009.
01/26/2009: "Late September: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur."http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html
01/28/2009: Launch listed on Boeing website: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html
02/26/2009: 2008 DirecTV Annual Report: "With the launch of our DIRECTV 12 satellite later this year, we will gain another 50% increase in our national HD capacity to over 200 channels while offering local HD channels to more than 92% of households."

"DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing."

Note: We've since found the 101° reference to be incorrect.
8/7/2009, 8/11/2009: FCC Filings:D12 Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729763
D12 Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173017
D12 Exhibit-B (Request for Partial Waiver of Section 25.210(I) 30 DB Cross-Polarization Requirement):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173015
D12 Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV 12):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014
D12 Schedule-S (updated 8/11/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=730514
RB-2A Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729761
RB-2A Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173007
RB-2A Exhibit-B (Waiver Requests):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008
RB-2A Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV RB-2A):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173006
RB-2A Schedule-S:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173013

Boeing DirecTV-10/DirecTV-11/DirecTV-12 Fact Sheet: www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf
Two Line Element (TLE) Format:
A NORAD two-line element (TLE) set consists of two 69-character lines of data which describe in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth. Calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

Current D12 TLE & Orbital History:
Awaiting Launch in 2009
Tracking (Pictorial View):Placeholder

Launch Photos:Placeholder

The current DirecTV HD listing can be found here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378)

Contributors to the information above: Sixto, LameLefty

[Sixto]

Placeholder for more information.

[Paul A]

Oh Boy, I can't wait!!!

Thanks Sixto for all that you do!!!!

[CJTE]

Wow. DirecTV 11 isnt even parked in its official location and we're getting info on D12.

Right On.

But having to wait to late 2009... Yikes!

[DodgerKing]

can we get a mod to make this a sticky and delete this particular post by me?

[OverThereTooMuch]

can we get a mod to make this a sticky and delete this particular post by me?Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.

[DodgerKing]

Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.

He will still be doing updates and in the meantime it will get lost somewhere here in this forum...

[Doug Brott]

Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.

Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about :)

[LameLefty]

Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about :)

Like, oh, say . . . we need to figure out who the launch contract is with. With Chase Carey telling investors that D12 will be launched second half 2009, they almost certainly have at least an option on a launch slot with one of the major providers - ILS via a Proton/Breeze from Baikonaur like D10; Sea-Launch via a Zenit SL3/Block DM from the equator like D11; Arianespace via Ariane 5 from Kourou, French Guiana; or a ULA Atlas V from Florida. The first two are the more likely options given the success of both D10 and D11. However, ILS has had a couple failures of their Breeze upper stage since D10, and Sea-Launch had a failure prior to their later success of D11.

In any event, those who have a desire and aptitude for digging around the investor documents of the entities in question might be able to locate the "smoking rocket" so to speak. ;)

[hdtvfan0001]

Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about :)
We always do..... :D

Seriously though...I suspect D12 will be launched as a clone of D11 (it is already), with the same kind of mission to be a flagship sat and to replace an older one. Perhaps if they learn anything in the months ahead from D11 like they did for D10, they may modify it slightly, but otherwise, it should be a repeat performance.

[smiddy]

Are there any launch sites in South America? I would go with something like that if I knew of a place to launch from...

[cforrest]

Are there any launch sites in South America? I would go with something like that if I knew of a place to launch from...

http://www.arianespace.com

Located in French Guiana!

[Sixto]

Per LameLefty, have added the 5 launch site possibilities to post#1 and added a "contributors" tagline to acknowledge those who significantly contribute along the way.

[Christopher Gould]

they have used Arianespace also. its been awhile, but i know they have. once was even a dual satellite launch. are they out of the running for future launches? cost failures

[Tom Robertson]

The original contract for D10/D11/D12 lists several heavy lift satellite launchers that the satellites must be capable of launched thru:
[Boeing] will ensure that the Satellites will be technically compatible for Launch on each of
the following potential launch vehicles: Sea Launch (6100), Arianespace 5 ECA, Atlas 5
(521) and/or ProtonM/BreezeM Long Fairing Phase 1 (the “Candidate Launch Vehicles”).
Contractor shall not take any action during the construction of the Satellites that would
preclude Launch by any of the Candidate Launch Vehicles.

Cheers,
Tom

[Drew2k]

Sixto - Maybe you can add a new section to Post 1: "About D12". For example, is D12 a true clone of D11, right down to the experimental BSS payload? Or is it missing that payload? How does it differ from D10 and D11?

Regarding BSS and what is possible with a launch over a year away: Is there any possibility anything will change before the D12 launch with BSS technology, either with FCC authorizations or the payload itself?

(Great job on the info posted already, by the way!)

[Tom Robertson]

Drew2k,

Yes it is possible that the FCC might approve a BSS license in time for D12--but remember that package would have to be built in very soon to make a build/testing/launch cycle for a late 2009. I very much doubt D12 has much of anything in the way of a BSS package as that would be very high risk of expense at this time.

Cheers,
Tom

[LameLefty]

The original contract for D10/D11/D12 lists several heavy lift satellite launchers that the satellites must be capable of launched thru:


Cheers,
Tom

Excellent! Thanks, Tom! I guess my appraisal was pretty much right on. :)

[Sixto]

Sixto - Maybe you can add a new section to Post 1: "About D12". For example, is D12 a true clone of D11, right down to the experimental BSS payload? Or is it missing that payload? How does it differ from D10 and D11?

Regarding BSS and what is possible with a launch over a year away: Is there any possibility anything will change before the D12 launch with BSS technology, either with FCC authorizations or the payload itself?

(Great job on the info posted already, by the way!)Thanks Drew.

Yep, gonna add a few new sections for D12 ... and have plenty of time between now and 2009! :)

[TheRatPatrol]

Any guesses to which orbital slot this will go in? How many satellites can each slot hold?

With D12, they can have up 200 national HD channels. But what happens if every channel goes HD, will they have the capacity for that, can they use the existing satellites at 101 for more HD expansion, or is there a D13 in the long term plans?

Thanks

[Tom Robertson]

Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:

It will not go in 110 or 119. :)

It will almost certainly not go in 101.

If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103? :)

DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them. :)

As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[TheRatPatrol]

Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:

It will not go in 110 or 119. :)

It will almost certainly not go in 101.

If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103? :)

DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them. :)

As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth. :)

Cheers,
Tom
Thanks Tom, thats good news to hear. :)

[Drew2k]

Drew2k,

Yes it is possible that the FCC might approve a BSS license in time for D12--but remember that package would have to be built in very soon to make a build/testing/launch cycle for a late 2009. I very much doubt D12 has much of anything in the way of a BSS package as that would be very high risk of expense at this time.

Cheers,
TomThanks Tom. From the first post stating D12 was originally planned as an on-ground spare, does that mean it's actually already fully assembled and tested, and just needs to be shipped to a launch facility?

[Tom Robertson]

Thanks Tom. From the first post stating D12 was originally planned as an on-ground spare, does that mean it's actually already fully assembled and tested, and just needs to be shipped to a launch facility?
Um... I'm not 100% sure. Somethings might be hard to mothball in a fully assembled and tested state, particularly items that suffer oxidation quickly.

I suspect it is in as close to being shipping ready as is possible for a late next year scheduled launch. Does that make sense?

Cheers,
Tom

[Drew2k]

Um... I'm not 100% sure. Somethings might be hard to mothball in a fully assembled and tested state, particularly items that suffer oxidation quickly.

I suspect it is in as close to being shipping ready as is possible for a late next year scheduled launch. Does that make sense?

Cheers,
TomYup! I didn't mean to say it would just be sitting in a crate marked "Destination: Sea Launch", either, just waiting to be loaded onto a flatbed! :p

I would assume it's in a secure clean room, but given some of the posts about potential changes with a BSS payload (if even present on D12) or whether something has to be corrected on D12 based on any issues or problems found in D11, I was just curious how much flexibility Boeing (it is Boeing building it, right) would have to make modifications. It sounds like there's some leeway as long as they fit it in the window you described earlier for testing. Thanks again!

[inkahauts]

This may have been asked and answer, I don't recall... I know someone has researched and confirmed that no sat dish available today is capable of receiving KA-Lo signals from D10, D11, D12 at 101.... How about KA-Hi at 101? Maybe a Spaceway goes to 101 to make room for D-12

[inkahauts]

Not to spoil everyone's fun... but ya know one of these d-12 threads was actually started a while ago... and I just found it....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123959

Where is Directv-12 anyway?

Some speculating on how Directv may stack D12 in is in there... Making my last post a bit stupid! :)

[geagles]

So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.

Thanks

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
(BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.

[geagles]

More smarter was a bad choice of wording. lol. The reason I ask is I don't see anything about it being a temporary location for testing BSS.

[JLucPicard]

I don't believe that filing has anything to do with D12.

[Mike Bertelson]

DirecTV keeps pushing to keep the advantage.

This is great news.

Thanks Sixto. Great work.

Mike

[LameLefty]

So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.

Thanks

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
(BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.

That's is an interesting filing, particularly as it references a July 2008 filing date. It seems to me that might be a putative "D13" or perhaps even "D14" dedicated BSS satellite. Who if anyone currently holds licenses for 107W?

[merchione]

Not to spoil everyone's fun... but ya know one of these d-12 threads was actually started a while ago...


This is the only one that counts.

[Tom Robertson]

This may have been asked and answer, I don't recall... I know someone has researched and confirmed that no sat dish available today is capable of receiving KA-Lo signals from D10, D11, D12 at 101.... How about KA-Hi at 101? Maybe a Spaceway goes to 101 to make room for D-12None of the 5lnb designs support Ka at 101. I also suspect none of the new SL3 designs do either.

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Robertson]

So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.

Thanks

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
(BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.
These are corrections to re-filings to request orbital licenses in the newest satellite to home band, commonly called BSS or "reverse" band. This was the band that DIRECTV11 just did some testing with a surprise package of tranponder(s) at location 101.

So in short, this will not be D12. We'll see more and more BSS band info over the next couple years, but the next step will be the FCC allocating licenses.

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Robertson]

That's is an interesting filing, particularly as it references a July 2008 filing date. It seems to me that might be a putative "D13" or perhaps even "D14" dedicated BSS satellite. Who if anyone currently holds licenses for 107W?

No licenses for BSS have been released, so no one does yet. :) I expect we'll see license allocations soon--in FCC terms. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[bjlc]

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.

Some kid working on his high school science project.


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..

[LameLefty]

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.

Some kid working on his high school science project.


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..

That's wrong on just so many levels. :rolleyes:

[Tom Robertson]

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.

Some kid working on his high school science project.


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..
My guess is capital expense flow and investor expectations against real need with a mixture of satellite launcher availability.

Cheers,
Tom

[geagles]

Thanks Tom, It thru me because of the request to operate at 107 WL. I know they have tested D11 there but only tested it. This appeared to indicate a permanent location for a new satellite.
Again, thanks for the rapid response.
As you say
Cheers and a good day to ya.

[n3ntj]

Thanks for the info, guys. I am exciting about D12 already and D11 isn't even 'in service' yet.

Is this thread going to be a 'Sticky'?

[Mike Bertelson]

Thanks for the info, guys. I am exciting about D12 already and D11 isn't even 'in service' yet.

Is this thread going to be a 'Sticky'?
I'm sure there will be a sticky but it may be a bit early. However, there seems be a lot of interest in a sticky so who knows. :grin:

You'll know it when it happens. ;)

Mike

[evan_s]

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.

Some kid working on his high school science project.


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..

I suspect it's also a matter of not having a need for it. Once D11 gets up and running and filled up DirecTV should be very close to carrying all the HD channels that are available to carry. Launching another expensive sat to add another 5 or 10 channels isn't really a good idea financially. Since it's one big expense they do need to make sure there is use for it.

There is also the other side of things to consider. There's a lot of infrastructure needed on the ground to handle these in addition to the sat in the sky. They need facilities to transmit the signal to the sat, hardware at those facilities to compress and combine the different signals and some way to get the info to these facilities in the first place. All of this takes time too and you can't significantly accelerate these plans with out greatly increasing the cost.

[Tom Robertson]

I'm sure there will be a sticky but it may be a bit early. However, there seems be a lot of interest in a sticky so who knows. :grin:

You'll know it when it happens. ;)

MikeAs a compliment to Sixto's excellent work, this thread has a very good chance of being the one that get's stickied. Normally this would be earlier than we would sticky something, but this thread has shown it has legs :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Ernie]

So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.

Thanks

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
(BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.

Actually, this refers to RB-3, a planned BSS bird. Read about it at: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467

Just to make things interesting, RB-5 is planned for 119, so all the people complaining about line-of-site problems to 119 will get a chance to it again.

Ernie

[tkrandall]

Actually, this refers to RB-3, a planned BSS bird. Read about it at: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467

Just to make things interesting, RB-5 is planned for 119, so all the people complaining about line-of-site problems to 119 will get a chance to it again.

Ernie

ugh! not 107W much less 119W. go east, like to 95W!!!

[jefbal99]

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?

[Athlon646464]

I would like to be the first in this 200 page (at the very least) thread to ask the following:

1) When will it go live? (My guess is Wednesday February 15, 2010)

2) Will this mean less 'compression' on my 175 HD channels?

3) Do you think Fox News HD will be re-mapped?

4) Sixto - what the hell is a TLE?

Thanks in advance..........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HoTat2]

I just don’t see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.

Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:

[jefbal99]

I just don’t see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.

Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:

Depends on how they rework the stack plan

[HoTat2]

Depends on how they rework the stack plan

By “stack plan” I assume you mean the "stacking" of the LNB down-frequency bands.

But how can you actually rework the current 13V/18V or + 22KHz controlled Ka-lo 250-750 MHz (R/LHCP); Ku 950-1450 MHz (R/LHCP); and Ka-hi 1650-2150 MHz (R/LHCP), stack plan with the present subscriber reception gear? :confused:

[evan_s]

I just don’t see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.

Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:

Assuming they launch D12 still configured like D10 and D11 with only KA low transmission capabilities I expect they will end up playing around with the conus and spot allocations. Currently the spot patterns for the the Ka spots seems to be pretty loose with many people seeing lots of 0's.

Lets say they put d12 at 99. They bump the total conus transponders there from 14 to 18. Half from each d11 and d12. They tighten up the spot patterns from 99s to add more spots to both increase total spot capacity and to move some spots back off D10. D10 fires up more conus transponders from 103c. Net effect of more conus and spot capacity. Yeah it would be simpler if they had a nice empty spot to put it in like d11 at 99 but a single sat at each location isn't enough to fill the entire 500mhz ka lo band especially with quite a few channels to use for spots. DirecTV has 4 sats at 101 to fill that slot up. They've already shown they can fire up extra conus transponders with d10 running 16 instead of 14.

The other possibility is a small? retrofit to d12 to use ka hi instead of ka lo. Ka hi at each slot currently only has spaceway 1 and 2 which use no conus transponders and have the advantage of using the phased arrays so are very flexible to be reconfigured while in orbit.

Either way I'm sure DirecTV is already planning this out or they wouldn't be going through everything to launch D12.

Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.

[Dolly]

Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start :D

[tkrandall]

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?

I would like to know this as well, as anything west of 99/101/103 or so will be a problem for me, at least with a single dish installation.

Man, just when I think I am "out of the woods" and will only need 99/101/103 from here on, I get this news about these BSS satellites and their to be at 107w and 119w.

Any speculation of what specific services DTV intends to use these for?

[Sixto]

I would like to be the first in this 200 page (at the very least) thread to ask the following:

1) When will it go live? (My guess is Wednesday February 15, 2010)

2) Will this mean less 'compression' on my 175 HD channels?

3) Do you think Fox News HD will be re-mapped?

4) Sixto - what the hell is a TLE?

Thanks in advance..........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:Welcome.

1. Hopefully will go "live" late 2009. Most likely 60-90 days after launch. No idea yet of launch date or launch provider.

2. D12 will add capacity for at least an additional 50 HD channels. The additional bandwidth most likely will not effect "compression" but it all depends on the bandwidth requirements in late 2009.

3. Best guess is that Fox News HD will be "live" very soon. I'm guessing 8/14 but nothing has been announced.

4) TLE description is in post#1.

[Athlon646464]

Welcome.


Ha! :p

Thanks Sixto..........

......... but

(My post was meant to be tongue in cheek ;) )

I read the whole D11 thread as it happened, and thought I'd get that stuff out of the way before you were inundated with it again (I knew the answers).

:rolleyes:

[Sirshagg]

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3729/notsoonim2.png

[Doug Brott]

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3729/notsoonim2.png

Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:

[hdtvfan0001]

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3729/notsoonim2.png
You're an animal.... :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

[curt8403]

Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:

or MonSoon?

[wearsch]

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3729/notsoonim2.png

So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?

[curt8403]

So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?

yes, for at least 1 year
:sure:

[houskamp]

Are we there yet??? :grin:

[curt8403]

Are we there yet??? :grin:

for D11, we are there, for D12, Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.

[syphix]

Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.If you kids don't stop it...and I mean NOW....we'll turn this satellite around and go right back home!!!


:D

[TheRatPatrol]

Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.
A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)

[hdtvfan0001]

Are we there yet??? :grin:
What are the odds...I just saw that annoying commercial for Universal Studios with the Simpsons - Bart and Lisa were in the back seat asking......

"Are we There Yet"...over and over........almost the same time you posted..... :D

Hmmmmmmm.

[Ernie]

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?

The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°

Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.

Ernie

[Tom Robertson]

A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)

The Stack Plan is how the blocks of 500MHz bandwidth are "stacked" onto a coax infrastructure that might be only rated to slightly over 2GHz.

DIRECTV stacks 3 500MHz blocks onto the coax: 250-750MHz, 950-1450MHz, and 1650-2150MHz.

And there are 4 selections a receiver can make: 13V with no tone, 18V with no tone (the 101 and 99 orbital slots) 13V with 22KHz signal tone, and 18V with tone (the 110/119/103 slots). The KU sats: 101, 110, and 119 are in the middle "stack", 950-1450MHz. Ka are above and below.

FYI: OTA and cable are roughly 50MHz thru 900MHz.

So where would DIRECTV put Ka at 101? All the stack plans are currenly full as we know it. My only guess is above the rest and be at 2350-2850MHz, meaning the entire infrastructure must be rated at 3GHz.

Then comes BSS...

So 2) new LNB is required. Some home setups might also need new cable that supports 3GHz. Or something else.

3) D12 might be also some redundancy capacity. D12 won't be going at 101 as we would have heard about a new LNB/stackplan/etc long ago. :) Clearly DIRECTV has some sneaky trick up there sleeve to more fully use the bandwidth at 99 and 103... :)

4) At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.

Cheers,
Tom

[hdtvfan0001]

At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.
I'm suddenly getting this vision of a guy with a hairnet standing in front of a green tarped large object behind him....again........ :D

[Tom Robertson]

The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°

Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.

Ernie
Part of the apparent "mind changing" is the FCC has settled on the locations and spacing for BSS satellites--which was a change from the original "estimated" locations when these were first filed many years ago. All the original filers were given an opportunity to re-file without penalty to correct to the new spacing.

Cheers,
Tom

[spartanstew]

Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start :D

No S***.


Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.

[evan_s]

A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)


The sats are so close together, relatively speaking, that as far as the dish is concerned it can't tell the difference.

No the stacking plan is how the signal gets from the dish to your receiver(s). There a couple of basic signals used by the receiver to tell the dish which signal(s) it wants. It start off just sending 13v or 18v to pick between the 2 polarities of the signal which also corresponds to even or odd transponders.

Then when they started using 110/119 they needed an additional signal so they used a 22khz tone and 13/18v to select between the even and odds there. 110 & 119 are combined together at the dish because even together they don't fill up one block entirely.

When they started doing the Ka sats rather than adding more signals they decided to stack more signals on each combination. The Ka actually have 2 blocks at each orbital location so needed 2 slots in the stacking plan. The ka hi and ka lo from 99 are sent the same time as the 101 signal and the ones from 103 are sent the same time as 110/119.

This is also where the bbc comes in. The receiver can't directly tune the ka lo in the stack plan so it activates the bbc when it needs that part and the bbc switches it up to the ka hi portion replacing the ka hi.

The image shows the stack plan as listed in the WB68 manual.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14517&stc=1&d=1215661918


2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

A new LNB could allow us to receive KA at 101 yes. I don't think they will take that route however. It would require a new lnb which means new hardware and an install scheduled for every customer that has a current hd install. Because of the specifics it would also mean swapping out every old at9 sidecar dish to do it realistically. That's a lot of costs to eat.

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

My guess for that is it a combination of factors.
1) 200 hd channels is a lot of national channels and by using less capacity for National HD channels they can use more spot beams to provide more Locals to markets they don't have them and add missing local channels in other markets.

2) limits on how much bandwidth they have to use at one slot as national channels. Since d10 and d11 and probably d12 are configured just for ka lo they only have 1 500mhz block to work with. Currently d10 is running 16 transponders but was originally planned for 14 and d11 is running 14. 14 transponders at the size DirecTV is running them ends up using a little over half the bandwidth in the 500mhz ka lo slot. 24 would be the max possible.

Currently we expect once thing settle down we'll have 28 transponders worth of HD channels coming from d10 and d11 for national content. If we had a completely empty orbital slot for d12 we would expect another 14 transponders worth ending up at a total of 42 but we won't be able to do that. When d12 launches I expect some shuffling around of things.

For example D12 ends up at 99. D11 and D12 at 99 running a total of 18 or 20 conus transponders with 4 or 6 left to use for lots of spot running from both sats. (spots can reuse the same transponder frequency because they aim at different areas and don't interfere with each other). D10 running at 103 will then turn off some of it's spot capacity moving those locals to 99 and fire up more conus transponders and be back up 16-18 by it's self.

Net total is 34-38 conus transponders which puts us right around 200 total hd channels with a lot more spots total with more of them coming from 99 than 103. A little shuffling and they get plenty of use from d12 with out a reconfigure and can later in life shuffle things around more to cover failures. It also maximizes their install base of receivers.

If you are interested in more details toms got a great post at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks :)

Backhauling is a pretty simple idea. DirecTV gets tv signals from all over the us to gather up the locals and from who knows where when dealing with the premium channels and needs to get all of it back to it's uplink centers where it does what ever it needs to and sends them up to the sats to be beamed down to us. It has to get those signals there some how so it uses sats for that process. Backhauling also gets used by other things like news channels. It's how the signal gets from those live reporters back to the studio using a truck with a dish on it.


Edit

I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)

[hdtvfan0001]

Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[tkrandall]

The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

Ernie

I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.

[Sirshagg]

I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.

bud

[Tom Robertson]

I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.

The dish will very likely look exactly like a slimline. :)

The LNB array on the other hand... ;)

[Tom Robertson]

...<excellent treatise on stacking redacted, please look at evan_s' great post>
Edit

I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)

I'm glad you typed it up and left it. It was an excellent compliment to my way of saying things.

Thanks,
Tom

[Alan Gordon]

No licenses for BSS have been released, so no one does yet. :) I expect we'll see license allocations soon--in FCC terms. :)

The FCC needs to get on the ball as I noticed this story on SkyREPORT the other day:

Telesat Wins Key Spectrum Licenses
This week, Canadian satellite operator Telesat was awarded six "approvals-in-principle" for the development of BSS (broadcast satellite service) and FSS (fixed satellite service) frequencies by government regulator Industry Canada.

FULL STORY (http://www.skyreport.com/archives/view/?publication_id=1&release_id=857#article9)

~Alan

[HoTat2]

The sats are so close together, relatively speaking, that as far as the dish is concerned it can't tell the difference.

No the stacking plan is how the signal gets from the dish to your receiver(s). There a couple of basic signals used by the receiver to tell the dish which signal(s) it wants. It start off just sending 13v or 18v to pick between the 2 polarities of the signal which also corresponds to even or odd transponders.

Then when they started using 110/119 they needed an additional signal so they used a 22khz tone and 13/18v to select between the even and odds there. 110 & 119 are combined together at the dish because even together they don't fill up one block entirely.

When they started doing the Ka sats rather than adding more signals they decided to stack more signals on each combination. The Ka actually have 2 blocks at each orbital location so needed 2 slots in the stacking plan. The ka hi and ka lo from 99 are sent the same time as the 101 signal and the ones from 103 are sent the same time as 110/119.

This is also where the bbc comes in. The receiver can't directly tune the ka lo in the stack plan so it activates the bbc when it needs that part and the bbc switches it up to the ka hi portion replacing the ka hi.

The image shows the stack plan as listed in the WB68 manual.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14517&stc=1&d=1215661918


A new LNB could allow us to receive KA at 101 yes. I don't think they will take that route however. It would require a new lnb which means new hardware and an install scheduled for every customer that has a current hd install. Because of the specifics it would also mean swapping out every old at9 sidecar dish to do it realistically. That's a lot of costs to eat.

My guess for that is it a combination of factors.
1) 200 hd channels is a lot of national channels and by using less capacity for National HD channels they can use more spot beams to provide more Locals to markets they don't have them and add missing local channels in other markets.

2) limits on how much bandwidth they have to use at one slot as national channels. Since d10 and d11 and probably d12 are configured just for ka lo they only have 1 500mhz block to work with. Currently d10 is running 16 transponders but was originally planned for 14 and d11 is running 14. 14 transponders at the size DirecTV is running them ends up using a little over half the bandwidth in the 500mhz ka lo slot. 24 would be the max possible.

Currently we expect once thing settle down we'll have 28 transponders worth of HD channels coming from d10 and d11 for national content. If we had a completely empty orbital slot for d12 we would expect another 14 transponders worth ending up at a total of 42 but we won't be able to do that. When d12 launches I expect some shuffling around of things.

For example D12 ends up at 99. D11 and D12 at 99 running a total of 18 or 20 conus transponders with 4 or 6 left to use for lots of spot running from both sats. (spots can reuse the same transponder frequency because they aim at different areas and don't interfere with each other). D10 running at 103 will then turn off some of it's spot capacity moving those locals to 99 and fire up more conus transponders and be back up 16-18 by it's self.

Net total is 34-38 conus transponders which puts us right around 200 total hd channels with a lot more spots total with more of them coming from 99 than 103. A little shuffling and they get plenty of use from d12 with out a reconfigure and can later in life shuffle things around more to cover failures. It also maximizes their install base of receivers.

If you are interested in more details toms got a great post at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


Backhauling is a pretty simple idea. DirecTV gets tv signals from all over the us to gather up the locals and from who knows where when dealing with the premium channels and needs to get all of it back to it's uplink centers where it does what ever it needs to and sends them up to the sats to be beamed down to us. It has to get those signals there some how so it uses sats for that process. Backhauling also gets used by other things like news channels. It's how the signal gets from those live reporters back to the studio using a truck with a dish on it.


Edit

I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)

Fine post evan_s

But just to make sure I understand you here. Assuming D12 goes to the 99 slot and will be sharing the Ka B-band along with D11. The key to its ability to increase the national HD channel capacity while preserving spot beam capacity.

Is based on;

1) The ability of the D10/11/12 series satellites to reconfigure their mix between CONUS and spotbeam frequencies?

2) And more important. The remaining 4-6 spotbeam frequencies in your example left on D11 and D12 may be combined as a 8-12 composite group, even though each half of the group will use the same downlink frequencies. Since they would be assigned to different spotbeams, and thus spatially separated?

[evan_s]

1) Yes. They've already run D10 at 16 transponders instead of the planned 14 and it still isn't using all of it's conus transponders. It also seems to be doing less spots than expect but not sure if thats due to the spot alignment issues or resources being used for conus instead of spots. I assume it's a little bit of both. I suspect that if they wanted to they could come close to filling the entire ka lo band with just conus transponders but obviously wouldn't have the power or bandwidth left to do any spots.

2) not so much combined as reused. Eg you can have different content broadcasting on transponder 24 to LA, Seatle, Pheniox, Boston, Miami and New York to cover the locals at all 6 different locations using only 1 transponder frequency. It's like the difference between a standard lightbulb and a spotlight. Combine repeating the same transponder even more times across the country and multiply that by 4 or 6 different transponders and you can run lots of spots and use lots of capacity on the sat while using less broadcast bandwidth than conus transponders would use. There are limits here based on the sizes of the spots, how they can aim them etc since you can't have overlaps of the same frequency but you can increase your effective total bandwidth by localizing it with spots and then repeating it. It's critical for effectively delivering local channels via sat systems. DirecTV already uses spots on both 101 and 119 to deliver many more SD locals than would be possible if they used the transponders as conus.

[HoTat2]

...2) not so much combined as reused. Eg you can have different content broadcasting on transponder 24 to LA, Seatle, Pheniox, Boston, Miami and New York to cover the locals at all 6 different locations using only 1 transponder frequency. It's like the difference between a standard lightbulb and a spotlight. Combine repeating the same transponder even more times across the country and multiply that by 4 or 6 different transponders and you can run lots of spots and use lots of capacity on the sat while using less broadcast bandwidth than conus transponders would use. There are limits here based on the sizes of the spots, how they can aim them etc since you can't have overlaps of the same frequency but you can increase your effective total bandwidth by localizing it with spots and then repeating it. It's critical for effectively delivering local channels via sat systems. DirecTV already uses spots on both 101 and 119 to deliver many more SD locals than would be possible if they used the transponders as conus.

Thanks evan_s;

I’ve actually understood this spotbeam analogy for quite some time. What I wanted to make sure of though, under my point 2 earlier. Was that unlike the CONUS beam frequencies, you can have the two satellites D11 and 12 at the same position operate on the same 4-6 (based on your example) spotbeam downlink frequencies. Yet not mutually interfere with one another due to their being consigned to different spotbeams?

[evan_s]

Thanks evan_s;

I’ve actually understood this spotbeam analogy for quite some time. What I wanted to make sure of though, under my point 2 earlier. Was that unlike the CONUS beam frequencies, you can have the two satellites D11 and 12 at the same position operate on the same 4-6 (based on your example) spotbeam downlink frequencies. Yet not mutually interfere with one another due to their being consigned to different spotbeams?

Yes spot beams can be from the same or different sats. There isn't any interference between the sats for the same reason there isn't any interference between spots from the same sat. They aren't aimed at the same spot.

[TheRatPatrol]

Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.

One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?

Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.

Thanks again. :)

[Christopher Gould]

Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.

One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?

Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.

Thanks again. :)

yes the satellites don't care what mpeg they get

[Tom Robertson]

A couple of considerations:
Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.

S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.

Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.

And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really need 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)

So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Robertson]

Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.

One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?

Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.

Thanks again. :)
Yes. They've already done that at 101° with LA DNS apparently.

But...
with 45M receivers to replace, you won't see all MPEG4 at 101° for a long time (in satellite terms.) :)

Cheers,
Tom

[evan_s]

Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.

One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?

Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.

Thanks again. :)

Yeah they could and have done that. The sats are actually fairly simple. They take an input signal, amplify it and send it back down. They don't do any real processing on the signal passing through them. Thats part of the reason why they need to do the backhauling to their uplink facilities instead of having the sats combine the signals from different sources together.

I went with d12 parking with d11 at 99 since I didn't know how the spot beam alignment issues for D10 might effect the ability to mix the spots with another sat. Either way the principle is the same.

I wonder when we will see a d14? sat configured for ka hi transmission to go up there with space 1 or 2.

[Christopher Gould]

A couple of considerations:
Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.

S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.

Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.

And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really need 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)

So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating. :)

Cheers,
Tom

also are they using all there geographical uplinks? dosn't this increase there number of spots and decreasing the number of frequenies?

[doctor j]

also are they using all there geographical uplinks? dosn't this increase there number of spots and decreasing the number of frequenies?

Maybe Tom can help with this.
I can wrap my mind around the spot beam issues but it is the uplinks that make my head spin.
I believe the spaceways use 6 uplink centers. I think it may actually be the uplinks that limit the # of spots per transponder. More sats per position helps. Maybe the backhauls and sat to sat transfers has something to do with this.

For example I've read Directv7S (119) has 4 spots and replicates them 10 times. ie 40 transponders worth of data.

If the spaceways could do 100 spots/ transponder (a # just out of the sky) what is the limiting factor on getting data to the sat to redistribute 100 ways.

Am I confusing myself??!!

Doctor j

[evan_s]

One factor is always going to be power. Receiving a signal, amplifying and retransmitting it requires power. These sats rely on Solar power for running the electronics so there ends up being a limit on how much they can do.

Uplink capacity can be a factor too. Have to get the signal up to the sat in the first place. Having multiple uplink facilities allows you to reuse uplink frequencies just like you reuse downlink frequencies with spots. For a DBS sat like Directv7s at 119 it has 1 500mhz uplink frequency allocation. For the KA allocation you actually have 3 uplink frequency assignments for the 2 downlink frequency assignments which does give you a little more bandwidth to play with.

For the spaceways in particular I'm sure there are also limits on how many spots it can generate. The larger area the spot needs to cover the more of the 1500 elements of the phased array it will need to use. It might be able to do several hundred spots but if they are so small they don't cover the dma then they don't do any good. In spots large enough to cover a dma it may only be able to do 50 instead.

There may be some limits on which uplink frequencies can be converted to which downlink transponder frequencies because it does seem to be a pretty simple frequency conversion which would necessitate more uplink facilities to get more spots repeated on the same transponder frequency but thats past my level of knowledge and Tom would have to chime in on that.

[Ernie]

Maybe Tom can help with this.
I can wrap my mind around the spot beam issues but it is the uplinks that make my head spin.
I believe the spaceways use 6 uplink centers. I think it may actually be the uplinks that limit the # of spots per transponder. More sats per position helps. Maybe the backhauls and sat to sat transfers has something to do with this.

For example I've read Directv7S (119) has 4 spots and replicates them 10 times. ie 40 transponders worth of data.

If the spaceways could do 100 spots/ transponder (a # just out of the sky) what is the limiting factor on getting data to the sat to redistribute 100 ways.

Am I confusing myself??!!

Doctor j


D11 uses uplink spots on 6 uplink centers. They are assigned 500Mhz for the uplink which they can use 6 times over (for a total of 3Ghz of input). On the output side, the 14 conus downlinks use about 300Mhz of the assigned 500Mhz. The remaining 200Mhz is reused by the 49 spot beams. So taking the remaining uplink capacity (3000 - 300) divided by 49 gives 55Mhz of uplink capacity for each spotbeam. Since each spotbeam gets 40Mhz (36Mhz TP bandwidth + 4Mhz of guardband) to work with, it looks like there is fairly good balance between uplink capacity and downlink capacity. (Considering that you would have to have the uplink centers perfectly balanced for the slight uplink inbalance to be a problem.)

(BTW, I'm willing the entertain the notion that I'm way off in my analysis. So don't be shy about letting me know)

Ernie

[Tom Robertson]

There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions. :)

From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)

So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.

Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.) :)

Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national.

(Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.

So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[TheRatPatrol]

There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions. :)

From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)

So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.

Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.) :)

Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national.

(Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.

So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet. :)

Cheers,
Tom
Oh Tom my head hurts now.:scratchin


:grin:

[kw2957]

Oh Tom my head hurts now.:scratchin


:grin:

I think that's an understatement! :lol:

[curt8403]

Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:

It will not go in 110 or 119. :)

It will almost certainly not go in 101.

If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103? :)

DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them. :)

As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth. :)

Cheers,
Tom

Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.

[curt8403]

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.

Some kid working on his high school science project.


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..

That's wrong on just so many levels. :rolleyes:


I agree. The Astronaut Farmer is fiction, and in the story (Movie) he nearly killed himself. Do we want to risk a very expensive satellite on technology that is more likely to destroy it than to launch it. Even Nasa has had some horrible failures. Remember Apollo 1. I say leave it to a pro, not some backyard flyboy. LameLefty, on the other hand, and some buddies, just might be able to pull it off.

[evan_s]

Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.

101 already has 2 ka sats d8 and d9 at it that are being used for backhauling. Combine that with the cost of an lnb swap and I'd say slim to none and slim just left the building.

[Tom Robertson]

Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.

Can DIRECTV do that? Yes, of course they can. :)

Will they? Well... Yes, someday. But for just Ka on 101? Perhaps not. Maybe as a combined Ka/BSS upgrade someday.

So likelihood of your scenario of doing this specifically for D12 at 101 are very low.

Cheers,
Tom

[curt8403]

A couple of considerations:
Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.

S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.

Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.

And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really need 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)

So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating. :)

Cheers,
Tom

don't S1 and S2 have Sat to sat communication ability? if So, I can see a signal being sent from 103 to 99 and the reverse. Not usefull, but I can see it, and it makes my eyes sore.

[Ernie]

There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions. :)

From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)

So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.

Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.) :)

Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national.

(Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.

So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet. :)

Cheers,
Tom

Right, antennas are symmetrical with respect to transmitting and receiving. So a spotbeam the could transmit to a small spot on the earth will only receive from that same spot. According to the FCC filings, D10 and D11 (and presumably D12) are set up with 6 uplink spot beams. To quote: All national programming material will be distributed from the DIRECTV broadcast center in Los Angeles, CA, whereas local programming material will be collected at six strategically located collection sites (including the DIRECTV Los Angeles, CA and Castle Rock, CO broadcast centers (“LABC” and “CRBC,” respectively)) and distributed from broadcast facilities at these six sites.

Ernie

[Tom Robertson]

Right, antennas are symmetrical with respect to transmitting and receiving. So a spotbeam the could transmit to a small spot on the earth will only receive from that same spot. According to the FCC filings, D10 and D11 (and presumably D12) are set up with 6 uplink spot beams. To quote:

Ernie
Isn't that presuming they use the same antennae for sending and receiving. I'm not certain that is the case. But I need to more thoroughly review the FCC files as you've pointed out. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Tom Robertson]

don't S1 and S2 have Sat to sat communication ability? if So, I can see a signal being sent from 103 to 99 and the reverse. Not usefull, but I can see it, and it makes my eyes sore.

Originally all three spaceways: S1, S2, and S3 were designed with in space communications in mind. (Would have been an awesome network.)

When S1 and S2 went to DIRECTV that capability was removed and the inter-satellite frequency allocations were returned to the FCC. (I'm pretty certain S3 also had all of that capability removed as well.)

Cheers,
Tom

[Jhon69]

Originally all three spaceways: S1, S2, and S3 were designed with in space communications in mind. (Would have been an awesome network.)

When S1 and S2 went to DIRECTV that capability was removed and the inter-satellite frequency allocations were returned to the FCC. (I'm pretty certain S3 also had all of that capability removed as well.)

Cheers,
Tom


Maybe they disabled that after seeing"Independence Day"?.:eek2:

[dem]

Do we want to risk a very expensive satellite on technology that is more likely to destroy it than to launch it. Even Nasa has had some horrible failures. Remember Apollo 1.
Apollo 1, of course, was a problem with the payload, not the launch system. The Saturn IB and Saturn V never killed anybody.

[curt8403]

Apollo 1, of course, was a problem with the payload, not the launch system. The Saturn IB and Saturn V never killed anybody.


Ok. maybe I should have said Remember Discovery, or Challenger. Point is that everyone has problems, but I would rather go with someone who has been doing it a while.

Just look at Falcon 1 (Spacex)

[Ernie]

Isn't that presuming they use the same antennae for sending and receiving. I'm not certain that is the case. But I need to more thoroughly review the FCC files as you've pointed out. :)

Cheers,
Tom

No. Just imagine a spotbeam that pointed at, say, Castle Rock, Co. You could use that as a transmitting antenna to distribute signals in a small area along the front range of the Rockies. But, you can also use that same antenna as a receive antenna and it would only receive uplink transmissions from that small area (on the same frequency and polarization as say from the LA uplink center).

Actually, it is possible to use a microwave device called a "circulator" to separate the signals from a single feedhorn for transmitting and receiving. However, that level of design is not in the FCC application, nor is there any mention using a single spot for both (it talks about downlink and uplink spots separately). So, I would assume that is the case. A circulator might work fine in this application (Google "microwave circulator" for more info), or the ferrite material used in them is too delicate to survive a launch or too big and heavy. So it is still possible even though there is no mention of it. I'm sure there is a definitive Boeing document on the subject. So we'll have to wait until someone spills the beans.

Ernie

[Tom Robertson]

Ernie, my point was not "is it possible" but rather "does DIRECTV actually DO that on the satellite" :)

That said, thanks for the info! I will definitely look that up, it sounds very cool and interesting.

Cheers,
Tom

[Sixto]

Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950

[inkahauts]

Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950

Very interesting indeed... Now who wants to bet on D12 having another, yet differently designed and mounted bss testing equipment and that they will ask to test it in a different location, or maybe even multiple locations, including ones where they have filed for licenses to actually operate bss sats...

[Tom Robertson]

Sixto, that is awesome!

I note the high tech blocking device :)

Cheers,
Tom

[TheRatPatrol]

Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950
Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?

Thanks

[LameLefty]

Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?

Thanks

In short, it means don't expect BSS-compatible equipment from Directv anytime soon. There has to be a LOT more testing before the FCC will even consider approving BSS-based operational satellites. :)

[jefbal99]

Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?

Thanks

I'll take a stab...

The BSS testing didn't cause any interference, but due to some unforeseen issues, they don't feel the results are very reliable

[Sixto]

Another related filing ... "DIRECTV, Inc. (“DIRECTV”) hereby opposes the Petition for Reconsideration of the BSS R&O1 filed by Telesat Canada (“Telesat”) in this proceeding ..."http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035983

[bobnielsen]

Another related filing ... "DIRECTV, Inc. (“DIRECTV”) hereby opposes the Petition for Reconsideration of the BSS R&O1 filed by Telesat Canada (“Telesat”) in this proceeding ..."http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035983

I have a difficult-enough time following the technical issues. When the lawyers start in, I get hopelessly lost :D

[Sixto]

I have a difficult-enough time following the technical issues. When the lawyers start in, I get hopelessly lost :DYep, I'll eventually summarize ... figured would post the details since there's alot of debate going on ...

[merchione]

Yep, I'll eventually summarize ... figured would post the details since there's alot of debate going on ...

Do you think that this may affect the launch of D12 in any way?

[woj027]

Sixto, Although most of the documents were using terms I only thought were spoken on Star Trek, I did learn something, altough I'm not sure what.

Thanks for taking the time to find them, and post them. It's great coming to this site and learning about all of this.

[Sixto]

Do you think that this may affect the launch of D12 in any way?Anything is possible. Maybe they push for sooner to do more BSS testing. Certainly opens the possibility that they may want to do different BSS testing with D12. Lots of possibilities ...

[LameLefty]

Anything is possible. Maybe they push for sooner to do more BSS testing. Certainly opens the possibility that they may want to do different BSS testing with D12. Lots of possibilities ...

Someone needs to dig into Directv's SEC filings to see if any contracts or options exist regarding launch. So far, I have seen nothing on any launch provider's calendar's regarding D12.

[Sixto]

Someone needs to dig into Directv's SEC filings to see if any contracts or options exist regarding launch. So far, I have seen nothing on any launch provider's calendar's regarding D12.Been looking ... :)

Nothing yet ...

[LameLefty]

Been looking ... :)

Nothing yet ...

Me too. This is what Boeing still says (publicly), as of last week:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html

Interestingly, a lot of the sites I check for launch schedules show a LOT of Proton M/Briz M launches through next year. That's the launcher that put up D10. However, they've had a couple of embarrassing failures since. Guess they're confident they've fixed the issue given their booked launches. I also see a lot of Ariane 5 bookings. Not too many announcements about Sea-Launch, however, and their site doesn't list future launches (at least, I can't find their announced launch calendar).

[Sixto]

"LONG BEACH, Calif., Nov. 15, 2005 -- Sea Launch has signed a firm launch contract with DIRECTV, for a mission scheduled in early 2007. The contract includes an option for an additional launch."

The launch was D11. This "option" is ? ... :)http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051115s.html

[LameLefty]

"LONG BEACH, Calif., Nov. 15, 2005 -- Sea Launch has signed a firm launch contract with DIRECTV, for a mission scheduled in early 2007. The contract includes an option for an additional launch."

The launch was D11. This "option" is ? ... :)http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051115s.html

Ah, well aren't you clever. :p Congrats on digging that up.

Some of my more obscure sources (not too sure of reliability) show only two confirmed 2009 launches for Sea-Launch, plus a late-'09 "TBD" for the XM 5 sat. However, a couple of things play into all this. Of course, Sea-Launch can do a launch about once every two months, but to my knowledge, they've never sustained that pace for an entire year. Also, there is talk that the Sea-Launch Commander (command vessel) is due for a several-month overhaul. I don't know if that makes sense, however, as it seems to me they'd have used the downtime following their incident 18 months ago to take care of that task too. And of course, the other factor is the recently-approved XM-Sirius merger, which may or may not affect prior plans for satellites.

[Ernie]

In short, it means don't expect BSS-compatible equipment from Directv anytime soon. There has to be a LOT more testing before the FCC will even consider approving BSS-based operational satellites. :)

My take on the submission is more along the line of: Maybe you need to change the rules before licensing anything. The issue of sat-to-sat interference isn't resolved by this filing. This filing does indicate that earth station-to-subscriber interference is likely at the uplinks. The fact that a D* uplink could interfere with an E* subscriber (or at least reduce their rain-fade margin) might be a little unsettling to them.

Actually, the rain-fade issue made me think of something they forgot to test (or couldn't because its the dry season in California and T-storms don't operate on a schedule in the Rockies). The whole ground test is based on line-of-sight interference from the earthstation. However, during a rainstorm there should be considerable backscatter to further reduce margins. This could be significant over a wider area than what they were testing.

If there is a problem, then what do you do about. It has to work for all 17Ghz uplinks and downlinks. If it turns out that here is a real problem on the sat end because the existing antennas are a problem, will D* shut down older birds like D8 before their useful life ends? (Or is that a problem, since the BSS birds might not be launched before D8s end of life anyway.) What would they do about an incumbent with a 17Ghz uplink in one of the new BSS slots?


Ernie

[curt8403]

Sixto, that is awesome!

I note the high tech blocking device :)

Cheers,
Tom

simular device can be made from Tin Foil and said blocking device can be fitted to the head. Said to prevent Alien Mind Control attempts. :lol:

[Ernie]

simular device can be made from Tin Foil and said blocking device can be fitted to the head. Said to prevent Alien Mind Control attempts. :lol:

That why in the movies, the arrival of the UFO is preceded by a strong wind to blow away any Tin Foil shields. Come to think of it , that's what the Chinook winds in Castle Rock will do to any flimsy dish shields.

Ernie

[smiddy]

129 posts...I think this thread will have some maturing to do. ;) I'll see if I can dig up some more information on D12 from my co-workers.

[curt8403]

129 posts...I think this thread will have some maturing to do. ;) I'll see if I can dig up some more information on D12 from my co-workers.

good idea, I looked, boeing has nothing new on D12 yet

[inkahauts]

So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?

[smiddy]

So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?

For all we know, D10 has BSS too, it was just never tested. ;)

[curt8403]

So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?


the BSS appears to have been an interference test. I would expect no more tests for 2 - 3 years

[smiddy]

According to current FCC filings nothing about BSS testing is scheduled for D12, but that doesn't mean it can't be filed prior to launch...

[hdtvfan0001]

According to current FCC filings nothing about BSS testing is scheduled for D12, but that doesn't mean it can't be filed prior to launch...
...and it wouldn't be the first time a pre-launch spec change was done.

[dreadlk]

Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.

[curt8403]

Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.

MOST ethnic channels do hot have an HD counterpart

[tkrandall]

Is there anough Ka bandwidth at 99w or 103w for D12 to be effectivly used at either location? Won't S1, S2, D10 and D11 pretty much have the licensed bandwidth at those two slots fully allocated among conus and spot beams??

[Tom Robertson]

Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.

I don't think either the international HD channels nor the USA customers are ready for that kind of a move. D12 will be more traditional national HD and perhaps redundancy.

Cheers,
Tom

[evan_s]

Is there anough Ka bandwidth at 99w or 103w for D12 to be effectivly used at either location? Won't S1, S2, D10 and D11 pretty much have the licesnsed bandwidth at those two slots fully allocated among conus and spot beams??

There is plenty of bandwidth left there. Keep in mind as mentioned earlier there are 2 500mhz allocations at each slot so currently each sat has a full allocation all to it's self. If you want a more detailed answer check the posts from tom and I earlier in the thread.

[tkrandall]

I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?

[Tom Robertson]

I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?

Yes, each can fully use all the frequency range but how effectively? With hopping spotbeams, sharing just a few frequencies and fewer than in use today, more frequency slots are available to DIRECTV. :)

As to how many, that is the really tough question. The real answer lies in how many transponder frequencies does DIRECTV need to serve without interference problems.

Cheers,
Tom

[evan_s]

I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?

Generally speaking no. This is especially true with spot beams that can be repeated across the US to reuse the same transponders several times. For example there are 4 sats at 101 to provide direcTV's content and at 119 they host 40 different spot beams using only a couple transponders.

[tkrandall]

If it would lead to more effective use of spotbeams (higher density / re-use of each channel), then that would make a lot of sense.

[Ernie]

I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?

Its not clear that the Spaceways are capable of fully utilizing the 500Mhz. A possible plan would be to migrate Spaceway 1 and 2 into the same slot (so they would only have 250 Mhz apiece to service), and put (the more capable) D12 in the vacated slot.

Ernie

[tkrandall]

I thought the Spaceways were pretty versatle birds, especially with their spot beam capabilites due to their phased array antennas.

[evan_s]

Its not clear that the Spaceways are capable of fully utilizing the 500Mhz. A possible plan would be to migrate Spaceway 1 and 2 into the same slot (so they would only have 250 Mhz apiece to service), and put (the more capable) D12 in the vacated slot.

Ernie

D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.

[LameLefty]

D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.

Er, so what? Provided Directv has licenses for both parts of the Ka spectrum at each slot (and they do) there should be no issue. BBCs are cheap and with SWMs coming online, the Lo and Hi distinctions doesn't matter that much to end consumers.

[evan_s]

My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.

[Sixto]

My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.Yep, nothing new with the usual Friday Filing:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1873A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284435A1.pdfIntelsat getting a bird ...

[Ernie]

I thought the Spaceways were pretty versatle birds, especially with their spot beam capabilites due to their phased array antennas.

Versatile in terms of being able to change the spot location and size dynamically. Not so versatile in the number of spots. The phased array has 1500 elements which limits (probably because of sidelobe interference) the number of spots to 24. Since the location of the DMAs that D* wants to service is known, a satellite like D11 with a larger number (49) of fixed spots has the advantage.

Ernie

[Ernie]

D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.

Given the modular design of the Boeing 702, that shouldn't be that big of a deal. Since they have had this in mind for a while, Boeing probably started on this a year ago.

Ernie

[LameLefty]

My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. The extent of any necessary change may be anything from minimal to entire, depending on what the "final" plan is to use the spectrum most efficiently.

[Sixto]

Nothing new with the usual Friday FCC Release:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1912A1.pdf

[LameLefty]

Just an FYI: ILS is back on the "successful" side of the business with last evening's launch of the Immarsat-4 F3 launch on a Proton M/Briz M launch vehicle (same vehicle that launched D10 in summer 2007). They are pretty booked up for the next year or two so it's unlikely they could handle D12, but as we still do not know for certain which launch service provider is booked, it's good to know. It also gives Directv confidence in booking any future launches beyond D12 at some point several years from now.

[Sixto]

Nothing new with the usual Friday FCC Release:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1954A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284768A1.pdf
Interesting Echostar 11 stuff but nothing new with DirecTV ...

[Sixto]

Some new news ... not sure what it means yet ... from today's FCC filings ...

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) requests to amend its pending application for authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz
Broadcasting-Satellite Service (BSS) space station (Call Sign S2242) at the 107º W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV proposes to substitute Pegasus
Development DBS Corporation (Pegasus) as the applicant, and to conform the application to the technical parameters submitted by Pegasus for its
proposed space station (Call Sign: S2699) in the same spectrum at the same orbital location. In the 17/24 GHz Report and Order, the
Commission indicated that for the then pending applications where more than one applicant filed for an Appendix F location or its associated
offsets, it would "divide the available spectrum equally among the applicants pursuant to rule 25.158(d)." FCC 07-76, at para. 143. As part of its
amendment, DIRECTV requests the Commission to "treat Pegasus as if it had filed two of the three pending applications for 17/24 GHz BSS band
frequencies at 107º W.L. for purposes of division of the available bandwidth at that orbit location." DIRECTV has also filed a contingent partial
waiver request of the following rules: 47 C.F.R. §§ 25.158(c) (prohibition on transfer of place in application queue), 25.165 (bond requirement),
and 25.116 (major amendment).

DIRECTV states that this amendment relates to a broader agreement between and among DIRECTV, Intelsat North America LLC and Pegasus
regarding applications at the "nominal 91º W.L., 99º W.L. and 107º W.L. orbital locations."

Today's filings:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-285667A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2157A1.pdf

[tkrandall]

Not sure what that means either. I just hop it does not mean I ever need 107w for DirecTV service. 91 and 99 are fine. 103 is as far west as I can reliably to go. 110w signal is going away fast due to tree growth.

[Sixto]

Also, another bit of interesting info concerning satellite regulatory fees ... just released yesterday ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520171202

[Sixto]

Not sure what that means either. I just hop it does not mean I ever need 107w for DirecTV service. 91 and 99 are fine. 103 is as far west as I can reliably to go. 110w signal is going away fast due to tree growth.Seems to me like they're giving the 107 location to Pegasus. Maybe in return for something at 99. Gotta research this ...

[evan_s]

Thats what it sounds like to me. Three companies DIRECTV, Intelsat North America LLC and Pegasus all applied for the same orbital slots and the default behavior for the FCC is to grant each one a third of the bandwidth at that slot. Of corse for the companies involved it's much better if they each get one full slot of their own so they basically agreed to trade with each other so they each get a full orbital slot. Since they mention 91º W.L., 99º W.L. and 107º W.L. I'm going to assume Pegasus gets 107, since thats what this submission indicates, DirecTV gets 99, since this would be DirecTVs preferred slot with sats already at this location and Intelsat gets 91 is the way things are heading.

[lwilli201]

Sixto, does Pegasus have an application for a spot at 91º W.L. or 99º W.L orbital locations that Directv wants to trade for?

[Sixto]

Sixto, does Pegasus have an application for a spot at 91º W.L. or 99º W.L orbital locations that Directv wants to trade for?yep, that's what needs to be figured out ... on it ...

[Doug Brott]

OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion .. :)

(Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good :p)

[Sixto]

OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion .. :)

(Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good :p)Chase did refer to D12 today.

Mentioned the launch in 2009, and stated that all capex will be non-satellite within 12 months, inferring (maybe) that D12 may be up within 12 months.

[evan_s]

One other thought. This latest filing is BSS so I don't think that will be D12.Most likely it will end up being D14 (D13 was a replacement for the sat at 110 that was canceled).

[davemayo]

OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion .. :)

(Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good :p)

Oh no. :eek2:

[houskamp]

ARE WE THERE YET??? :lol:

[Sirshagg]

I can't wait - we need more HD PPV :)

[Sixto]

One other thought. This latest filing is BSS so I don't think that will be D12.Most likely it will end up being D14 (D13 was a replacement for the sat at 110 that was canceled).Yep, the BSS topic is non-D12. Just included it because no other spot to discuss.

I guess a slight (very slight) chance of some BSS component for D12, maybe another test, but expect full blown BSS later, a few years from now.

[Sixto]

yep, that's what needs to be figured out ... on it ...Pegasus applied for BSS at 91/101/110: http://www.futron.com/pdf/friends_of_futron_reports/satellite_regulatory_reports/FutronRR2006-05.pdf

101 seems interesting ... trade 107 for 101?

[sportshermit]

Can't wait for D12. Will be nice to get some new HD.

[machavez00]

Ok, call me lazy for not scrolling through 170+ posts.
A few questions.
Is it possible that D12 will be used to migrate existing SD only channels to MPEG4? Would this require DirecTV to have all it's IRDs, DVR and non DVR, MPEG4 capable? Is a MPEG4 SD IRD capable of of receiving HD channels and displaying them SD, if the account has HD programming on it?

[hdtvfan0001]

So when are we going to get Desktop software that features a countdown to the launch of D12? ;) :D

Heck...if we could get it for the start of the NFL season.... :lol:

[curt8403]

Can't wait for D12. Will be nice to get some new HD.


since D11 is half empty or so, D12 will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.

[evan_s]

Ok, call me lazy for not scrolling through 170+ posts.
A few questions.
Is it possible that D12 will be used to migrate existing SD only channels to MPEG4? Would this require DirecTV to have all it's IRDs, DVR and non DVR, MPEG4 capable? Is a MPEG4 SD IRD capable of of receiving HD channels and displaying them SD, if the account has HD programming on it?

It's possible but unlikely that D12 would be used for SD content. What we have heard from DirecTV so far is that it will be used to expand capacity up to 200 national HD channels and to add more HD locals.

They can put up Mpeg4 sd channel when ever they want and actually already do for some locals. This does require that the receivers support mpeg4 to see those channels. Where they have mpeg4 locals they use the r22 for a sd dvr which is really a hr21 with the hd features disabled. The R22 is able to receive hd signals and displaying them in SD. Currently this is only via Download on demand or OTA signals with the am21 but I don't think there is any reason it wouldn't work with HD sat signals. Ii is possible a new box will be designed that is mpeg4 capable but only able to decode SD signals but I don't think it's likely given the long term goals that directv has been publishing.

[Sixto]

since D11 is half empty or so, D12 will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.At last look, D11 was 90% full (63/70) ... including PPV HD ... :)http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1782916&postcount=320

[sportshermit]

since D11 is half empty or so, D12 will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.

Being in one of the smallest local markets and not even having standard definition locals I have little chance of high definition offerings. Other than the migration of mpeg 2 to mpeg 4 I've seen little or no offerings from D11.

[kevinwmsn]

I thought markets that don't have sd, when they do they would do high def and then crop the middle for those markets for SD. They would have to have mpeg4 equipment too.

[inkahauts]

Being in one of the smallest local markets and not even having standard definition locals I have little chance of high definition offerings. Other than the migration of mpeg 2 to mpeg 4 I've seen little or no offerings from D11.

Your more likely to get HD than SD at this point... Because if you get HD, it can always be output as SD...

[sportshermit]

Your more likely to get HD than SD at this point... Because if you get HD, it can always be output as SD...

This is encouraging. Right now only 1 channel of the 4 networks offers high definition and it's pretty spotty. They forget to flip the switch (or whatever they have to do) and went all of last Saturday's football in standard definition.

[BruceS]

If your local OTA broadcasters don't provide HD, then DirecTV won't be able to give you HD locals either.

All they do is send the SD and HD feeds from your local OTA broadcasters over the satellite.

[Sixto]

Nothing new yet with D12 ... been continuing to check any FCC filings ...

Here's the latest filing from Friday (10/10/2008) ... re: digital transition education:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520175163

Always in search of D12 info ... :)

[leww37334]

Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.

[Sixto]

Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.It all depends on one's perspective ... and there's much debate in other threads to discuss ....

D11 provided bandwidth for the 8 HD DNS movement, the 9 MPEG2 legacy HD movement, 9 soon to be 12 new full-time RSN's, 4 new networks in HD, 20+ new PPV HD (some just placeholders), and a boatload of bandwidth for the new NFL Sunday Ticket HD channels.

And there's been a few HD LIL markets going "live" every week ... all on D11.

Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.

[Curtis0620]

It all depends on one's perspective ... and there's much debate in other threads to discuss ....

D11 provided bandwidth for the 8 HD DNS movement, the 9 MPEG2 legacy HD movement, 9 soon to be 12 new full-time RSN's, 4 new networks in HD, 20+ new PPV HD (some just placeholders), and a boatload of bandwidth for the new NFL Sunday Ticket HD channels.

And there's been a few HD LIL markets going "live" every week ... all on D11.

Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.

2 of those HD-PPV are missing this morning.

[hdtvfan0001]

Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.

I respectfully, but totally, disagree that D11 has been any kind of disappointment at all.

It launched without problem, positioned as planned, fired up as planned, and has provided reams of new bandwidth that is being used for both new National HD channels and many more HD LILs to areas that have been craving it for quite some time.

A shared delivery of new National HD and more HD LILS was the mission all along, and has been accomplished.

There will always be debate as to getting more HD content...which is applicable to any HD content provider, DirecTV, Dish, cable, FIOS, etc. DirecTV continues to be ahead of the game on these fronts (for example, Dish has only 60% the same HD LILS DirecTV offers at this time).

I'd like to see more HD National channels too, a few in particular, as much as some other folks, but in the end...the total offering of HD now is very robust.

I can wait a bit longer for "HD Utopia" (with D12). If I was using another service, I'd be a whole lot more "disappointed".

That's what's nice about starting to talk about D12...we're getting much closer to the point where bandwidth will outway HD content provider availability.

[Sixto]

Another quiet Friday at the FCC:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2346A1.pdf

Been quiet for several Friday FCC filings ...

[LarryFlowers]

Another quiet Friday at the FCC:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2346A1.pdf Been quiet for several Friday FCC filings ...

I read the other day that Boeing satellite division is sweating bullits... lack of orders and a large (as in save the day) government sat order still pending.

[LameLefty]

I read the other day that Boeing satellite division is sweating bullits... lack of orders and a large (as in save the day) government sat order still pending.

That, and they just lost a huge fraud case in court versus a potential customer, and had a $371M award granted against them. :eek:

http://www.satellitetoday.com/st/headlines/25078.html

That said, D12 has got to be basically completed. What we're really waiting to see is action from the FCC pertaining to test and/or operational slots, plus a press release or investor info regarding a firm contract for launch services from SeaLaunch, ILS, Arianespace or ULA.

[Piratefan98]

Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.


No doubt it has been busy. I just wish more of the "busy" was focused where the March press release indicated it would be.

Jeff

[cartrivision]

I respectfully, but totally, disagree that D11 has been any kind of disappointment at all.

It launched without problem, positioned as planned, fired up as planned, and has provided reams of new bandwidth that is being used for both new National HD channels and many more HD LILs to areas that have been craving it for quite some time.

A shared delivery of new National HD and more HD LILS was the mission all along, and has been accomplished.

There will always be debate as to getting more HD content...which is applicable to any HD content provider, DirecTV, Dish, cable, FIOS, etc. DirecTV continues to be ahead of the game on these fronts (for example, Dish has only 60% the same HD LILS DirecTV offers at this time).

I'd like to see more HD National channels too, a few in particular, as much as some other folks, but in the end...the total offering of HD now is very robust.

I can wait a bit longer for "HD Utopia" (with D12). If I was using another service, I'd be a whole lot more "disappointed".

That's what's nice about starting to talk about D12...we're getting much closer to the point where bandwidth will outway HD content provider availability.

You can disagree all you want, but the general consensus was and continues to be that the added HD content as a result of D11 coming online has been disappointing at best. One small example of the disappointing use of the satellites capacity is that DirecTV still doesn't even provide the HD versions of all the HBO/MAX channels that they currently carry in SD, let alone the dozen or so additional HBO/MAX feeds that are available in HD, but not carried by DirecTV at all.

[Shades228]

You can disagree all you want, but the general consensus was and continues to be that the added HD content as a result of D11 coming online has been disappointing at best. One small example of the disappointing use of the satellites capacity is that DirecTV still doesn't even provide the HD versions of all the HBO/MAX channels that they currently carry in SD, let alone the dozen or so additional HBO/MAX feeds that are available in HD, but not carried by DirecTV at all.

Unless you lived in an area without HD locals and now get HD locals. This has been talked about many times. There's 2 primary points that always come up. A: People always want more HD but they don't want to pay more for it. B: HD locals and local conversion seems to be priority 1 for every carrier out there right now because it has a hard deadline. If D* announced 30 new HD channels tomorrow but said your hd access charge was going to double I doubt many people would be happy.

[Sixto]

A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678Just released this week.

[LarryFlowers]

A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678Just released this week.

Fascinating Re...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Canis Lupus]

:lol:

That's why Sixto is here to take care of us :)

Fascinating Re...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[lwilli201]

A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678Just released this week.

The FCC should slap a big fee on NCTA and Verizon for submitting this garbage. It appears that DBS is a very very small fraction of the FCC workload.

[Sixto]

DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.

No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.

[LameLefty]

DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.

No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.

Thanks for that. Although we had previously figured out that Directv owns an option for another Sea-Launch flight, I had yet to see it on the Sea-Launch schedule, and they look pretty well booked through the end of next year and into '10.

[cforrest]

DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.

No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.

Thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on www.ilslaunch.com for news. Hope there are no issues with Proton launches between now and 2009 when Directv-12 launches.

[Sixto]

Thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on www.ilslaunch.com for news. Hope there are no issues with Proton launches between now and 2009 when Directv-12 launches.yep, i might visit that area once in a while ... :)!

[hdtvfan0001]

yep, i might visit that area once in a while ... :)!
Curious why they chose that route, since SeaLaunch has been so successful for them to date...

[Richierich]

Well they launched Directv 5 & 8 so I guess Directv bids it out to see who is cheapest for that particular launch or can handle their time frame.

[hdtvfan0001]

Well they launched Directv 5 & 8 so I guess Directv bids it out to see who is cheapest for that particular launch or can handle their time frame.
...both very good points....on the other hand....the last Dish sat got screwed using the same delivery. :eek2: :D

[Sixto]

Also D10 was Proton (ILS).

[LameLefty]

Also D10 was Proton (ILS).

In fact, D10 was the last Proton launch before a failure. :eek:

Interestingly, the failure turned out to be caused by the Briz-M upper stage; the new configuration for the new generation of very heave comsats requires a whole series of lengthy burns to get inclination down to zero while at the same time raising the orbit to GSO. Anyone else remember the crazy ground tracks from D10 when it looked like the satellite was doing figure 8's and zig-zags over the globe? Expect another flurry of posts based on "information" from web-based "tracking" sites. :D

But in any case, that upper-stage configuration resulted in a thermal stresses on the upper stage and engine because of the long burns required for such massive payloads, resulting in failure. They have since successfully returned to flight and there are several other launches between now and then which should help them gain continued operational and flight confidence in the revised designs since the last failure.

[BNUMM]

DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.

No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.

Lyngsat has it listed on their site.

[RAD]

It's just nice to know now that D* actually does have a place in line to get D12 launched.

[LameLefty]

Lyngsat has it listed on their site.

Probably from this site. :lol:

[Sixto]

Lyngsat has it listed on their site.think we were first ... but where?

launch provider not shown on: http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

[lwilli201]

Great information Sixto. How long before launch does Diretv have to get orbital location authority for D12 or do they already have an approved location. How does that work?

[TheRatPatrol]

Any word or guesses on what slot its going to?

[Sixto]

Great information Sixto. How long before launch does DirecTV have to get orbital location authority for D12 or do they already have an approved location. How does that work?Any word or guesses on what slot its going to?Tried to get the orbital location info but no luck. :) Not available yet ...

Also no news during the usual Friday FCC filing ...

[BNUMM]

think we were first ... but where?

launch provider not shown on: http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?

[curt8403]

http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?


i see it to. but no launch vehicle

[Sixto]

http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?yep, but the question has been which launch provider/vehicle and which slot (99/101/103).

we've known about the launch for a while now.

[RAD]

I thought folks have been saying that the current Ka/Ku LNB's that have been installed don't do Ka from 101. Would they really want to have to go back out and swap LNB's after the last round of upgrades?

[Sixto]

I thought folks have been saying that the current Ka/Ku LNB's that have been installed don't do Ka from 101. Would they really want to have to go back out and swap LNB's after the last round of upgrades?yep, 101 is unlikely.

but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...

[smiddy]

Has anyone found a launch date or site yet?

[Sixto]

Has anyone found a launch date or site yet?All the speculation was SeaLaunch. Recent credible report says 2009 ILS/Proton.

Hasn't been any official posting anywhere. All sites still say TBD.

Actually most sites still speculate to Sea Launch.

No info on slot.

[LameLefty]

All the speculation was SeaLaunch. Recent credible report says 2009 ILS/Proton.

Hasn't been any official posting anywhere. All sites still say TBD.

Actually most sites still speculate to Sea Launch.

No info on slot.

Anik at NASASpaceflight.com really knows his $h!t when it comes to the Russian space industry. He doesn't list Directv 12 as a payload for Proton yet and they're looking semi/sorta/kinda booked up into 2010 now, though I'm sure they could squeeze and shuffle stuff around a little bit. I've dropped him a note to ask if he's heard anything along these lines.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.msg330040#msg330040

[LameLefty]

Okay, already heard back from Anik over at NSF . . . no news from his Russian industry contacts about D12 at all, either in connection with Sea-Launch or on Proton. :confused:

[Sixto]

Okay, already heard back from Anik over at NSF . . . no news from his Russian industry contacts about D12 at all, either in connection with Sea-Launch or on Proton. :confused:Thanks Lefty.

Still looking like ILS/Proton but we wait ...

[evan_s]

yep, 101 is unlikely.

but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...

There are also already sats at 101 using the KA band. They are being used for backhalling signals so 101 is very unlikely.

[HDRoberts]

yep, 101 is unlikely.

but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...

As a Dish guy who hasn't followed D10/D11 et al, that is a question I have had for a while. How does D12 give DirecTV more capacity? Aren't the available frequencies at the Ka slots of 99 and 103 filled by S1/S2/D10/D11?

And I wouldn't put too much stock into Lyngsat. They have Echostar 14 going up on a Zenit 2, which doesn't even do GTO.

[curt8403]

There are also already sats at 101 using the KA band. They are being used for backhalling signals so 101 is very unlikely.

since we don't really know the plans for D12, it is possible that it might be parked at 101 and put on standby. that way it can move to 103 or 99 if needed (quickly)

[RAD]

since we don't really know the plans for D12, it is possible that it might be parked at 101 and put on standby. that way it can move to 103 or 99 if needed (quickly)


Chase Carey has mentioned that with D12 they would be able to do up to 200 national HD channels so I'd guess it's not going on standby somewhere.

[curt8403]

Chase Carey has mentioned that with D12 they would be able to do up to 200 national HD channels so I'd guess it's not going on standby somewhere.

regardless of what happens, it will be interesting to say the least

[HDRoberts]

So no one can explain how this will magically get them to 200? It doesn't seem to me there is a slot available.

I was thinking about a switch, but I'd be hesitant is DirecTV is stuck at capacity for only 22 more networks.

99 and 103 are full, it seems.
101 already has Ka and existing 101 LNBs don't do Ka
107 Ka I think is owned by dish (no one is pointed here anyway)

Where else?

[doctor j]

Lets work backwards. gct and Sixto's work on conus Ka transponders puts 5 HD channels per transponder. Tom Robertson's reports on the conus capability of D-10 & D-11 and probably D-12 places their configuration as:

"Downlink in the Ka B-band 18.3-18.8GHz frequency range
40mhz channel spacing (36mhz usable.)
14 Nationwide transponders
10 spotbeam transponder frequencies
49 total spotbeams."

However we know that D-10 was using 16 conus transponders to maximize conus HD prior to lighting up D-11.

Lets say they can use all 24 transponders between D-11 and D-12 if D-12 put at 99, and use 16 D-10 transponders for conus. Redistribute spots between the 5 other Ka "bands" (Spaceway 1 & 2 Ka Hi, D-10 Ka Hi & Ka Low, and D-11/D-12 Hi).

That will allow 40 conus Transponders X 5/tpd = 200 HD channels.

Some combination of these options most likely is what will occur IMHO.

Doctor j

[HDRoberts]

Can they really squeeze all the HD locals to the Ka high Spaceways and 8 Ka low TPs?

If so, why didn't they just build D10 and D11 to have all 24 TPs CONUS capable? Then they wouldn't need another sat. Seems the idea is just to kill the 10 spot TPs on D10 or D11 and move the HD locals elsewhere.

[evan_s]

A single sat at 99 or 103 is not enough to fully max out that orbital slot. As configured D10 and D11 can't use KA Hi for anything since that is an entirely different block. Currently only the spaceways are configured for that. It's possible they might be able to reconfigure d12 before launch we'll know on that once we get a FCC filing listing the loc and frequencies. Looking at the Boeing Factsheet at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 the sats seem to have 16 transponders with 6 spares.

As they are setup now they have 10 transponders frequencies used for spot channels which is more than is really probably needed. 101 for example hosts all it's spot channels off 4 transponders frequencies. I don't expect them to eliminate all the spot frequencies at where ever D12 goes because they would loose all the spot capacity on at least the older sat there and even D12 with out a reconfigure of the sat for KA Hi. I do expect that they will reduce the number of spot frequencies down to probably 4 like they use at 101. That would give them 6 more transponders of conus capacity at where ever D12 goes. 20 total with 10 hosted off each sat. Fire up 4 more transponders worth on the other sat and shift some spots off that sat to keep the power budget and you've got your 50 more channels worth. With only 10 national transponders active on D12 and the other sat at that site they can use more spots to increase the total count of spot beams and capacity.

Keep in mind that it's pretty standard for there to be multiple sats at a single orbital slot and this type of juggling is common too. 101 for example has 4 different sats up there if memory serves. Most Dish spots have multiple sats too.

Assuming d12 stays KA Lo like d10 and d11 DirecTV will still have pleanty of potential bandwidth if they think they need it. The KA His sitting there with just the Spaceways in them providing spots are a prime option for additional National capacity that will require no changes on the ground. Just a launch of a new sat. The Spaceways with their Phased arrays could even host conus channels if they wanted but probably wouldn't be very efficient at it. More likely they will just use them to configure their spot patterns for maximum reuse when shared with another more standard Sat for National and some spot capacity.

As to why they didn't build D10 and D11 to do 24 conus transponders.

1) it's not a very good use of them. Spots allow their transponders to be reused several times which maximized their uplink usage and the spot capacity is needed to deliver locals.

2) They probably can't do it on the power budget they had. Remember these sats have to operate totally from solar power so they have limits on how much power they can use. Receiving a signal. Amplifying it greatly to broadcast it out to the entire continent takes a lot of power. A Spot being aimed at a much smaller area obviously uses less power.

[Sixto]

A single sat at 99 or 103 is not enough to fully max out that orbital slot. As configured D10 and D11 can't use KA Hi for anything since that is an entirely different block. Currently only the spaceways are configured for that. It's possible they might be able to reconfigure d12 before launch we'll know on that once we get a FCC filing listing the loc and frequencies. Looking at the Boeing Factsheet at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 the sats seem to have 16 transponders with 6 spares.

As they are setup now they have 10 transponders frequencies used for spot channels which is more than is really probably needed. 101 for example hosts all it's spot channels off 4 transponders frequencies. I don't expect them to eliminate all the spot frequencies at where ever D12 goes because they would loose all the spot capacity on at least the older sat there and even D12 with out a reconfigure of the sat for KA Hi. I do expect that they will reduce the number of spot frequencies down to probably 4 like they use at 101. That would give them 6 more transponders of conus capacity at where ever D12 goes. 20 total with 10 hosted off each sat. Fire up 4 more transponders worth on the other sat and shift some spots off that sat to keep the power budget and you've got your 50 more channels worth. With only 10 national transponders active on D12 and the other sat at that site they can use more spots to increase the total count of spot beams and capacity.

Keep in mind that it's pretty standard for there to be multiple sats at a single orbital slot and this type of juggling is common too. 101 for example has 4 different sats up there if memory serves. Most Dish spots have multiple sats too.

Assuming d12 stays KA Lo like d10 and d11 DirecTV will still have pleanty of potential bandwidth if they think they need it. The KA His sitting there with just the Spaceways in them providing spots are a prime option for additional National capacity that will require no changes on the ground. Just a launch of a new sat. The Spaceways with their Phased arrays could even host conus channels if they wanted but probably wouldn't be very efficient at it. More likely they will just use them to configure their spot patterns for maximum reuse when shared with another more standard Sat for National and some spot capacity.

As to why they didn't build D10 and D11 to do 24 conus transponders.

1) it's not a very good use of them. Spots allow their transponders to be reused several times which maximized their uplink usage and the spot capacity is needed to deliver locals.

2) They probably can't do it on the power budget they had. Remember these sats have to operate totally from solar power so they have limits on how much power they can use. Receiving a signal. Amplifying it greatly to broadcast it out to the entire continent takes a lot of power. A Spot being aimed at a much smaller area obviously uses less power.You said it very well. Exactly.

We won't know the exact juggling until the FCC filing but you covered it all.

[HDRoberts]

Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots. Dish could do better, too, but it seems that will soon have equal capacity on Ku, and do have a slowly unfolding plan to slowly add capacity.

I do know that there can be more than one sat per slot. I just thing with 16KW, 24 CONUS TPs should be able to be powered. It just seems to be poor forethought to not put flexibility in the sat. Save your spare and/or tens of millions for a launch.

E11 can power 32 TPs, even though they only have license for 29 at 110, and 10 are used for spots.

E8 has some spots but can also power those TPs CONUS.

[LameLefty]

Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots. Dish could do better, too, but it seems that will soon have equal capacity on Ku, and do have a slowly unfolding plan to slowly add capacity.

I do know that there can be more than one sat per slot. I just thing with 16KW, 24 CONUS TPs should be able to be powered. It just seems to be poor forethought to not put flexibility in the sat. Save your spare and/or tens of millions for a launch.

E11 can power 32 TPs, even though they only have license for 29 at 110, and 10 are used for spots.

E8 has some spots but can also power those TPs CONUS.

You need to read ALL of Tom Robertson's postings too, especially those going back to before D10's launch. Capacity discussions versus transponder licenses and orbital locations have all been very thoroughly covered.

[HDRoberts]

You need to read ALL of Tom Robertson's postings too, especially those going back to before D10's launch. Capacity discussions versus transponder licenses and orbital locations have all been very thoroughly covered.

All I'm saying is I want a bit more than DirecTV marketing before I buy that they will have 200 CONUS HDs in the next couple years. Direct should be able to tell us how they plan on accomplishing this feat. Ka is great, but there is still only so much bandwidth a 99 and 103. There seems to be a little more, but again I ask if all the local HD could be handled with Ka high to start with, why not do it all that way and save yourself the trouble when D12 is launched?

[Sixto]

Figured we've been slacking off on D12 and there must be something filed with the FCC.

I was wrong ... :)

Been searching and searching ...

Found some D10 and D11 info I hadn't seen previously. Found info on BSS and 99W-BSS, and RB-1 (99), and RB-2 (103), and RB-5 (119) ...

Some old, some new ... some no longer relevant.

Nothing, zippo, nada for D12.

They're either waiting to file because there's no need to file sooner or they're still working out the details.

I give up ... for now :)

[LameLefty]

All I'm saying is I want a bit more than DirecTV marketing before I buy that they will have 200 CONUS HDs in the next couple years. Direct should be able to tell us how they plan on accomplishing this feat. Ka is great, but there is still only so much bandwidth a 99 and 103. There seems to be a little more, but again I ask if all the local HD could be handled with Ka high to start with, why not do it all that way and save yourself the trouble when D12 is launched?

Seriously, if you're doubting the capacity issue, read Tom's posts and the followups that will be there in the thread. There's really no issue about meeting their stated capacity goals with the three sats. Remember, a TON of the bandwidth at 99 and 103 is set aside for spots, which are reused over and over again, just aimed at different places on the ground.

And frankly, Directv doesn't have to tell us anything. They do have to explain it to the FCC. As Sixto's regular searches have shown, however, there's still no news from them. I don't think that's very surprising given that launch and operation is still about a year away by all accounts.

[TheRatPatrol]

So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?

[LameLefty]

So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?

The 101 LNB is Ku-only. The encoding method (MPEG2 v. MPEG4) doesn't matter to the LNB - it's just receiving the signal and passing it down the chain.

However, Directv's constellation of satellites and programming basically preclude Ku being used for HD, either MPEG2 or MPEG4. There's too much core SD CONUS programming and too many SD locals coming from there to easily fit in any HD.

[Sixto]

So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?All indications have been no Ka from 101 with current LNB's (unless that has changed very recently).

Yep, 101 can do Ku MPEG4 (but comments have been made that it needed to be at the transponder level).

[lwilli201]

Sixto. Was there a request by Dish to allow only a 2 degree separation between Sat's using the same down link frequencies? I believe that 4 degrees is the norm. Of course it depends on the capabilities of the 101 LNBs. It just does not seem logical for the current generation of LNBs to not be both KA and KU capable to allow more flexibility for placement of Sat's in the 99 to 103 window.

[evan_s]

Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots.

2 KA slots is not tying DirecTV's hands at all. Each KA orbital slot is actually 2 500 mhz/ghz blocks so is twice the bandwidth of a KU location. In addition the transponder sizes aren't fixed so DirecTV uses fewer larger transponders with a different polarization and offset resulting in ~10% more useable bandwidth than KU. For the Backhaul sats at 101 DirecTV uses 250 Mhz transonders!!

With their 2 KA slots they have the equivalent of almost 4 and a half KU orbital slots. DirecTV has plenty of bandwidth for handling their HD single. Dish is the one that is currently so crunched for bandwidth it is having to convert all their content to MPEG4 and downrez their HD to make it all fit.

[Sixto]

Guess we got two threads going on this topic but will finish a thought here.

Another reason for not doing Ka at 101 is the stacking plan within the home.

There's no room currently in the home stack plan, unless they require SWM.

Per the spacing question ... I do believe 2 degree spacing for Ka is valid and ok.

The more I think about this, I again think about the convert D12 to Ka Hi topic. I wonder if they might go down that route. That could provide MUCH more D12 CONUS bandwidth to the home.

Spaceway-1 and Spaceway-2 currently each have 1000Mhz in the current stack plan. And it's almost all wasted since each home just needs a few Spaceway transponders if any.

[Sixto]

Started this in the other thread but figured would try to continue the conversation here ... as it relates to D12.

The current DirecTV stack plan in the home accommodates 6 Ghz of bandwidth. This assumes non-SWM. A SWM-only environment could support more then 6 Ghz (but would not be backward compatible).

101/110/119 have 2 Ghz total; and Spaceway-1, Spaceway-2, D10, and D11 each have 1 Ghz.

Spaceway-1 & Spaceway-2 are both Ka Hi (19.7Ghz-20.2GHz). Each has 500Mhz x 2 (RHCP/LHCP).

D10 & D11 are both Ka Lo (18.3Ghz-18.8Ghz). Each has 500Mhz x 2 (RHCP/LHCP).

If we look to optimize bandwidth ...

The 2Ghz for 101/110/119 is all being used. It's 950Mhz-1450Mhz x 4 within the home and no need to talk about it more. All very utilized.

Of the 1Ghz for D10, and the 1Ghz for D11 (250Mhz-750Mhz x 4), 1.2Ghz (300Mhz x 4) is being used for CONUS, and 800Mhz (200Mhz x 4) is being used for LIL (spot beams).

Of the 1Ghz for SW1, and the 1Ghz for SW2 (1650Mhz-2150Mhz x 4), all 2Ghz is being used for LIL (spot beams).

So in reality, of the 6Ghz in the home, 3.2Ghz is CONUS, and 2.8Ghz is LIL.

Putting D12 at 99 or 103 with Ka Lo (what it was configured for) could use part of the 400Mhz (200Mhz x 2) now used for LIL, if the LIL transponders (16-24) at that slot were reduced from 10.

But putting D12 at 99 or 103 with Ka Hi could maybe use a larger chunk of the Spaceway 1Ghz, since it's all LIL.

Now there may be very good reasons to not convert D12 to Ka Hi but after reviewing this, sure seems like MUCH not very utilized bandwidth at Ka Hi.

Would love for anyone to punch holes in any of this. Me thinking that transponder numbers and transponder sizing at Ka Hi may be a problem but not sure.

And this is separate from the future BSS 17.2Ghz-17.7Ghz.

Feedback welcome ...

[evan_s]

I have to agree that there is pretty much 0 chance D12 will end up at 101. It's already in use for Backhauling. It can't be received by the current LNBs. There is no room for it in the current stack plan. Far to many problems and there are other much better other options.

You are right that putting at least the Conus transponders in KA Hi would maximize the amount of conus capacity but I don't believe that is what they will do. The main reason is because of their own press release don't indicate that. If they had the full compliment of conus transponders for D12 they would be stating 220 or 225 channels total capacity with the 70 or 75 more channels D12 would provide with 14 transponders. Instead they are only saying it will provide 200 national channels total capacity. If I remember correctly they also said they would have capacity for 2500 locals from the 1500 they state now. This is a 1000 local increase instead of the 500 local increase we saw with D11. This info from the press releases clearly indicates to me that D12 will be KA lo and will be located at 99 or 103 and will thus end up providing less conus capacity and more spot capacity like I've described a couple times.

[P Smith]

Just first remark: D10/D11 have 24 tpn x 36 MHz , so it will equal 864 MHz; I would recheck SW-1/SW-2 FCC papers, so far both use only 6 tpns x ~ 70...80 MHz(?).

[Sixto]

I have to agree that there is pretty much 0 chance D12 will end up at 101. It's already in use for Backhauling. It can't be received by the current LNBs. There is no room for it in the current stack plan. Far to many problems and there are other much better other options.

You are right that putting at least the Conus transponders in KA Hi would maximize the amount of conus capacity but I don't believe that is what they will do. The main reason is because of their own press release don't indicate that. If they had the full compliment of conus transponders for D12 they would be stating 220 or 225 channels total capacity with the 70 or 75 more channels D12 would provide with 14 transponders. Instead they are only saying it will provide 200 national channels total capacity. If I remember correctly they also said they would have capacity for 2500 locals from the 1500 they state now. This is a 1000 local increase instead of the 500 local increase we saw with D11. This info from the press releases clearly indicates to me that D12 will be KA lo and will be located at 99 or 103 and will thus end up providing less conus capacity and more spot capacity like I've described a couple times.But to get 50 on D12 you'd need 10 transponders. Haven't been able to make the math work with Ka Lo (yet).

[Sixto]

Just first remark: D10/D11 have 24 tpn x 36 MHz , so it will equal 864 MHz; I would recheck SW-1/SW-2 FCC papers, so far both use only 6 tpns x ~ 70...80 MHz(?).For D10 & D11, there's 6Mhz spacing at the beginning and the end, then 6Mhz between most transponders, and 8Mhz between a few. Adds up to 1Ghz.

[P Smith]

I did attempt to count useful bandwidth. ;)