Operation Iraqi Freedom discussion thread

[Chris Blount]

Okay folks, with the war looming I thought I would start this thread to try and keep the discussion contained.

I would imagine tonight will be the night. The thing that really bugs me is France. They really have no guts. If Sadam uses chemicals weapons (which I think he will), France is now saying they will join the fight. Gee, just in the nick of time. :rolleyes:

[James_F]

I disagree Chris. France (damn hate to defend them) has always said that chemical weapons must never be used. They only wanted to stop them by inspections, not war. I don't see this changing their stance at all. Their help is not related to the war, but the cleanup and assistance to troops exposed.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I would like to take a moment to thank in advance our men and women in uniform. While I may not agree 100% with the president on this matter I do believe that our military will act as called upon, and are proud to serve our country.

And while I may not totally agree with our president, I do remember that I am an American and will respect and honor what our President decides to do.

God bless our military, and God Bless the United States of America!

[xxxx]

$1.5 B in contracts already let before the first shot is fired.

What a go - CHENEY - I have loaded up my portfolio with Haliburton stock

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14682

Of course, Cheney et al would just say that this is the price of freedom.

[firephoto]

Kuwait time is +3 GMT right?
Is the rest of Iraq on the same time?

The deadline would come at 4am in Kuwait if my numbers are right. As bright as the moon has been over the last few days they might as well go during the day. I could clearly see the hills and mountains (trees and features) around midnight the last few nights. It's been a really bright full moon.

Let's hope that Iraq doesn't use any WMD.

[Richard King]

If Sadam uses chemicals weapons (which I think he will), France is now saying they will join the fight.Well, France is certainly safe now, since it has been determined that they don't have any chemical weapons. :rolleyes:

[sampatterson]

I support our troops and wish them safety, good luck and god speed. I also wish this for the citizens of Iraq that don't believe in their terrorist leader.

[RichW]

Certainly France has its own motivations, as do we. But it is good that some of the other countries that were neutral, or even opposed to the invasion are publicly stating their support tfor the US during the war and afterward. Long term success in Iraq depends upon the world eventually backing us up.

By the way, Rking, I haven't found any official statement from France which claims there are not chemical and biological weapons in Iraq. They hav always held that inspectors should contniue to look for them. And I wouldn't put them down so sarcasticly, because such a statement might be enough of a deterent against Iraq, if they do have them. That would save American lives.

[RandyAB]

As long as we win, and win fast without a lot of casualties the world will come around to our side.

[James_F]

And how will we pay for this thing without raising taxes? By lowering them?

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
I would like to take a moment to thank in advance our men and women in uniform. While I may not agree 100% with the president on this matter I do believe that our military will act as called upon, and are proud to serve our country.

And while I may not totally agree with our president, I do remember that I am an American and will respect and honor what our President decides to do.

God bless our military, and God Bless the United States of America!

I'd like to echo those sentiments as well Scott.

I personally strongly disagree with the military action, but I do wish the troops well in their duty to country, and I do hope this war will end soon so they can go home to their families.

[Bill R]

I would just like to say that I find this board refreshing in that the administrators and most of the members of the board support our troops and the president.

I was personally attacked on the "other" board for not agreeing with the "anti-war" croud over there and no longer feel welcome over there.

As a Viet Nam vet I can tell you that war is never a good thing. I lost many friends and saw some horrors that still give me nightmares.

I hope that this war is over quickly and all our fine young men and women return safely to their family and friends.

Our prayers go with them in this truely difficult time.

[RichW]

Bill,

Roger/Rage not withstanding, I think you will find a consensus here in support of our troops, even among us who believe the war to be a premature ejaculation. I hope it is quick decisive, and without casualties. I also hope there will be a plan for post-war Iraq that doesn't fester into another conflict 20 years down the road.

"As a Viet Nam vet I can tell you that war is never a good thing. I lost many friends and saw some horrors that still give me nightmares."

Amen to that! As one who has also been there, I wish you peace of mind.

I think what still bothers me is that this war is being viewed like some sporting event with the media providng play-by-play commentary. There is something salicious, even pornographic, in that. There is a lack of emotional discipline among supporteers and protesters alike, each with their own cheerleaders. In addition, I find that some (not all) supporters are gleeful over going to war. Most of these have never served a day in the military, much less seen hostile action.

[Chris Blount]

Originally posted by Bill R
I would just like to say that I find this board refreshing in that the administrators and most of the members of the board support our troops and the president.
It's nice to have you here Bill. I find it VERY important that we all support our troops. I know how it feels to be out there. I was there myself during the gulf war. I just recently retired after 21 years active duty in the Air Force. Not everyone has to agree with the battle we are fighting, but if the president and the joint chiefs think it's necessary (and they know a hell of a lot more than us since they are privy to top secret information) then we should back them up.

I don't have any problem with people who protest the war, but if the decision has been made then enough is enough. At least show support for the find young men and women risking their lives.

[James_F]

Originally posted by Chris Blount
I don't have any problem with people who protest the war, but if the decision has been made then enough is enough. At least show support for the find young men and women risking their lives.
Chris,

We are not at war yet. I can't believe that we can't step back from the brink of war at this time.

[pmichael]

I am deeply opposed to this military adventure. But I will support the troops, and hope for minimal casualties.

[Anthony]

If France, Germany and Russia believed Iraq would have voluntarily disarmed because of their political pressure and media sentiment, they were most certainly very full of themselves. These world powers are in no position to force the hand of Saddam Hussein no matter how hard they try to make the rest of the world believe it. The only reason Iraq gave the U.N. crumbs from its box of cookies was because they were looking down the barrel of the U.S. military and for no other reason. If we had turned our backs on Iraq and left this problem for the rest of the world to tackle, it would have been business as usual for the violent dictator. We as a country are split on the issue of going to war with Iraq. But let us not be fooled. Having the sentiment of the rest of the world is nice, but not necessary. This is our problem and we should and will take care of it. If countries like France truly want peace, they should stand behind the only country that can achieve it instead of trying to take center stage and sway world opinion into thinking it is they who are the lovers of peace and the U.S. the monsters of war. We do not need permission to defend ourselves from those who participate in activities which focus on our demise. If France, Germany and Russia really think more time for inspections would have been successful, they should ask themselves why they needed to perform the inspections in the first place and why was Iraq complying ever so slowly. I think we all know the answers to both questions. May God be with our youngsters who are ultimately bringing peace to Iraq.

[James_F]

Do as we say or well destoy you huh? Can't have peace without a gun? My head is spinning thinking about that....

So by your agrument Iraq can have weapons of mass destruction because they are defending themselves?

[Chris Blount]

Originally posted by James_F
Do as we say or well destoy you huh? Can't have peace without a gun? My head is spinning thinking about that....

So by your agrument Iraq can have weapons of mass destruction because they are defending themselves? James,
There is something that you are missing. We are a free thinking people and haven't been raised in the same type of environment as the leadership in Iraq. There are and always will be countries who only understand the barrel of a gun. Pure and simple. I know that's hard to fathom. Think back to grammar or high school. Remember the bullies who used to terrorize everyone. Ever try to tell the bully to leave you alone? Did that work? NO! What was the result when someone finally beat the crap out of the school bully? He didn't quit being a bully but he sure as heck left most people alone. The only thing he understood was to get his butt kicked.

[James_F]

We supported him because of our hatred to Iran. Maybe if we didn't do that Iraq might not look the way it is today. We are always paying for our past mistakes and we will for this current one for years, especially if friendly governments in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and others are overthrown by their citizens and radical governments take their place. Its a fine line and I can only hope they know what they are doing. I don't have the confidence in these guys like you do.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
We are always paying for our past mistakes and we will for this current one for years, especially if friendly governments in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and others are overthrown by their citizens and radical governments take their place. Its a fine line and I can only hope they know what they are doing. I don't have the confidence in these guys like you do.

Well look at Pakistan, if left to Democracy, Osama Bin Laden would be a high exhalted guest of the Pakistani government. So given the choice of a Democratic Pakistan, or the one under secular dictator Gen. Musharrif, I'd have to pick Musharrif.

9/11 made me change my mind about US foreign policy, I used to think in Black and White, but now everything is a shade of gray. Turns out my father's politics were right...

[James_F]

Why do you get to choose who gets what? Democracy is about choice. Why take that right away from people just because you don't agree with their politics?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
Why do you get to choose who gets what? Democracy is about choice. Why take that right away from people just because you don't agree with their politics?

What I mean is I'd rather have the US back Musharfaf then have the US push for a democratic goverment or stay out of Pakistan all together. The reason I get a vote is because as you've stated the US had influenced these outcomes.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
Why take that right away from people just because you don't agree with their politics?

Because that is the way the world works and it isn't going to change just because it is right. One thing the Carter Administration did was almost stop our interference in the other governments of the world, and we ended up with more enemies than we ever had (Nicaragua, Iran, etc.) The influence of the Soviets did not stop and it was even worse. Only when the USSR fell did things seem to fall naturally without influence.

But now we have the Enemy of "Islamic Fundamentalism". The two probably outcomes in most Middle Eastern countires are either Friendly Dictatorships or Enemy Democracies (make that theocracies). I've lost my idealism and realize that the Dictatorship is not pur evil and the democracy is not pure good. So I'm for influencing toward Friendly Dictatorships. As I said before Shades of Grey.

[James_F]

Bush wants to bring democracy to the world. He has said it many times. How about we act upon it.

Carter had nothing to do with Iran. It was years of supporting a dictator who beat his people down. Could the same thing happen in Pakistan? Who knows....

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
Bush wants to bring democracy to the world. He has said it many times. How about we act upon it.

Carter had nothing to do with Iran. It was years of supporting a dictator who beat his people down. Could the same thing happen in Pakistan? Who knows....

Do you really beileve Bush wants to bring democracy to the world??? He (as most american administrations) wants to bring Pro-American influence to the world.

Lean more history. The Carter Administration had alot to do with what happened in Iran. Yes the Shah beat his people down, but the carter administration also stopped sending aid and weapons to Iran, the Shah could no longer fund his repression of the people and was thus overthrown. And the "Democracy" that arrose is not exactly free of oppression.

Carter was one of the few presidents that actually tried to "Spread Democracy" around the world and I don't think we are better off.

[James_F]

I know about Iran. I spent some time there while my Dad worked for Aramco.

The point isn't that Carter stopped supporting him, its that we should have never supported him in the first place. We always assume other people can't handle democracy. Why is that? We didn't get it right the first time. Took many years for black and wormen to get the right to vote. We were able to work though the learning curve because no one was trying to put a dictator in Washington.

An no I really don't believe Bush wants to bring democracy to the world. The problem is that he keeps saying it and at some point we will have to deliver on the promise.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
An no I really don't believe Bush wants to bring democracy to the world. The problem is that he keeps saying it and at some point we will have to deliver on the promise.

Why do we have to deliver on the promise just because we keep on repeating it. That sounds like you expect politicians to do everything they say they want to do, Ice Skating in hell before that happens.

If you assume the politican is lying, reading between their lines (lies) becomes much easier.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
The point isn't that Carter stopped supporting him, its that we should have never supported him in the first place. We always assume other people can't handle democracy. Why is that?
Well put Shah in power during WWII because we thought his father was Pro-Nazi. And wasn't there an attempt at democratic reform in the 50s but the guy who won had Communist leanings, so we put the Shah back. The Soviets kept there sphere of influence pro-Soviet, we kept our sphere pro-american. Not wrong or right, just the reality of the situation. If not our influence, then their influence. World Dynamics have changed, but powers that be still have multiple sides each trying to keep or expand their speheres of influence.

[PSB]

Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds.
Oh lord, yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away.
They only started the war.
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah.

Time will tell on their power minds,
making war just for fun.
Treating people just like pawns in chess,
wait till their judgement day comes, yeah.

Now in darkness world stops turning,
ashes where the bodies burning.
No more War Pigs have the power,
Hand of God has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, God is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercies for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.
Oh lord, yeah!
--Black Sabbath, War Pigs

[Bogy]

The war has started.

Late this afternoon I heard a news segment where Americans were interviewed about their expectations for casualties, both American and Iraqi, and what would be considered "unacceptable."

Most put their expectations for American dead in terms of two digits, with the unacceptable level coming in at anything above a few hundred.

Iraqi casualties were expected to be in the 3 digit range, with anything over 1000 being considered "unacceptable."

These expectations say a few things about the U.S. perception of war, as formed by our last few experiences. We expect casualties to be low. Certainly for Americans. We trust our technology and training to allow us to roll over the enemy with few or no casualties. But we also expect our technology to provide those "surgical strikes," taking out the enemy war machine without undue loss of life. Our expectations and trust in this expertise and technology finds the loss of civilians to be generally unacceptable as well.

Compare this to about 47,000 American dead in Viet Nam, 32,000 American dead in Korea, hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Japan due to bombing in WW2 even before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Just for a few examples. As this war unfolds I await word on the number of Iraqi dead. I certainly hope those interviewed are right in their expectations of American dead, but what about Iraqi casualties? The arrangements for reporters are different this time than they were the last time. In Desert Storm by the time reporters and photographers were allowed to see the "battlefields" they were "sanitized." I remember the surprise of reporters commenting on how few Iraqi bodies were found. Now we know that the bodies were covered before reporters were allowed on the scene. In fact, many Iraqi casualties were caused by tanks, mounted with blades, filling WW1 style trenches with the Iraqi soldiers still in them.

Certainly if we are to have war, "surgical" war would be preferable, but have we so "sanitized" war that we have taken away the repugnance it should have for us? Have we made war acceptable because we assume that there will be virtually no death and/or destruction? And is this assumption/expectation anywhere close to accurate? Is the American experience, as opposed to the European experience with war, with the death and destruction in the homeland, the difference between the American attitude toward this war and that of our "wimpy" ex-allies?

The coming days will bring some of the immediate answers.

May God have mercy upon us.

[John Corn]

Whether you agree with the War or not we can all legitimately agree that were all hoping for the safe and quick return of our men and women in the armed services... God Bless them.

[cooper]

God bless our troops. Hopefully the Iraqis won't fight, but if they do, may our troops have God speed and aim that is straight and true, get it over with and come home soon!

[Chris Blount]

Bogy,

This will be a very interesting war. With advances in technology it just may turn out to be limited and surgical. I think people have come to expect this. We have things today that were not available during Vietnam and Korea.

I'm really hoping that the raid last night took out most of the leadership. If it did, it can completely change the war. Saddam's speech afterward could have been taped before the bombing. Only time will tell.

[Mike123abc]

It appears to be an interesting strategy to try to get most of the Iraqi army to just give up and surrender. This strategy would be great if they could get most of the army to give up without having to fight.

[James_F]

Progress is slow, but if few lives are lost it would be well worth it.

[gcutler]

The weirdest part is the live shots from Baghdad. It just seems weird to have reporters sitting in the city waiting for it to be bombed. I guess that is the modern live news world we live in now. I guess CNN in 1991 with their live feed "Set The Bar", and each war had raised it. I almost expect to see someone sitting in the back seat of a car next to Hussein saying "Well things are tense at the moment..."