DTV dispatching another tech alignment assistance

[Steve9060]

I have been having problems on my HD channels especially my locals, since they came online. This will be the third time I had to have my dish aligned by Dtv. They have been there and signal strength has looked good, but it varies greatly because right after the guy left, without a cloud in sight it drops off again. I do not know what sat my HDs are on, but all my SD stuff comes in great, but the HD channels constantly drop out in my living room and bedroom sets.

Any advice anyone can give as far as making sure this tech does a good job of getting a strong signal to these birds? I am always courteous it has been a while since a tech has tried, but my wife is home for the summer and it drives her crazy when the Today show drops out…

Anyway thanks for any advice that you can lend, I love the service and just want to stop the constant dropouts, I understand rain fade, and high clouds, but I just want this system to work as well as it does on the SD channels…

[GTS]

The only thing I can suggest is that you ensure that you and the tech check the signal level of ALL the transponders on all of the satellites on ALL of your receivers before you sign off on any work orders. The 103 readings should all be at least 90, if they are then your dish is truly peaked. Most installers have no way of checking the 99 and 103 signals at the dish so be prepared to lend a hand by monitoring and relaying the levels using one of your receivers, use the bar graph display not the matrix, while he tweaks the dish. Make sure the monopoles are installed.

YOU ARE ULTIMATELY YOUR OWN QUALITY CONTROL REP.

Good luck

[Steve9060]

The only thing I can suggest is that you ensure that you and the tech check the signal level of ALL the transponders on all of the satellites on ALL of your receivers before you sign off on any work orders. The 103 readings should all be at least 90, if they are then your dish is truly peaked. Most installers have no way of checking the 99 and 103 signals at the dish so be prepared to lend a hand by monitoring and relaying the levels using one of your receivers, use the bar graph display not the matrix, while he tweaks the dish. Make sure the monopoles are installed.

YOU ARE ULTIMATELY YOUR OWN QUALITY CONTROL REP.

Good luck

Is there any way to tell what transponders my locals are on? Most of them are zeros, so I assume as long as a number higher than zero comes up, it has to be over 90?

[Mertzen]

Is there any way to tell what transponders my locals are on? Most of them are zeros, so I assume as long as a number higher than zero comes up, it has to be over 90?

Yes there should be at least one transponder close to 100 on one of the spotbeam birds.

[texasbrit]

Is there any way to tell what transponders my locals are on? Most of them are zeros, so I assume as long as a number higher than zero comes up, it has to be over 90?

Don't worry about the HD locals for dish alignment. They come from either the 99 or 103 slots, so if you get good signals on the CONUS channels (99c and 103c if you have a DVR, 99a and 103b if you have a receiver) your HD local transponders will be good also. You should have 80s, maybe 90s, on all the active TPs on the CONUS screens (there will probably be two zero transponders on 103b/c). If you have a DVR, make sure you check both tuners.

Just FYI. Because the 99s/b and 103s/a signal strength screens show only spotbeams, you will see all sorts of signal strengths varying from zero to possibly as high as 100, depending on whether it is the TP carrying your HD locals, one that is close to you and you are inside someone else's spotbeam, or a TP whose spotbeams are directed so far away from you that you see no signal at all. If you receive HD locals, when your dish is aligned you will see (at least) either one or two transponders with high (90s) signals, on just one of the two signal strength screens. If you have Hartford locals they will show up on 103 s/a, and none of the 99s/b signals will be relevant for you.

[Steve9060]

So if I may would like to ask you experts a related question, since my outages, or whatever you want to call them occur, I can switch to any SD channel and it comes in no problem, is it possible it could also be an that its an LNB problem?


Hope I'm not being a pain here, but I love the service, and if I get another installer who doesn’t get it right, the wife may be at her wits end…

[texasbrit]

So if I may would like to ask you experts a related question, since my outages, or whatever you want to call them occur, I can switch to any SD channel and it comes in no problem, is it possible it could also be an that its an LNB problem?


Hope I'm not being a pain here, but I love the service, and if I get another installer who doesn’t get it right, the wife may be at her wits end…

The SD channels are from the 101 satellite and this has a VERY wide beamwidth, much wider than the Ka satellites carrying national HD. So you can do a very sloppy installation and get 101 reception but very poor signals from 99/103.
As GTS posted, just don't let the installer leave until he has shown you the signal strength on the 103c or 103b screen , and on the 99c/99a screen, for BOTH tuners if you have a DVR, and those signals are at least in the 80s. If he tells you 99c/a is not transmitting yet, or does not matter, he is WRONG. as I posted, get 103c/b and 99c/a at decent signal strength and the HD locals will take care of themselves.

[Steve9060]

Will do, thank you guys very much for the help!

[K4SMX]

If you have additional SD receivers requiring the use of a multi-switch, make sure that you have the proper multi-switch: a Zinwell WB68 or WB616, not a SAM-6802. If you do have the proper multi-switch, try bypassing it with double-female "barrel" adapters and run your HD receiver(s) straight to the dish lines. It may be defective.

If you don't use a multi-switch, and even if you do, examine all the connectors in your lines for looseness/corrosion, especially at your ground block, which can also be bypassed for testing with barrel adapters. Re-tighten until just snug with a 7/16" wrench. Connectors can cause problems with HD signals which don't appear (yet) with SD signals.

If none of that works for you, you could have a bad LNB. Post your signals on 99(c) and 103(c) the next time you lose HD channels:

Satellite transponders (14 total at 99º(c)/(a))
[New national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA

Satellite transponders (14 total at 103º(c)/(b))
[Most national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA
17-24 0 NA NA NA NA 0 NA NA

[RAD]

Make sure that they also installed the two monopoles to help support the dish. Without the extra support the dish is easier to slip out of alignment.

[Steve9060]

If you have additional SD receivers requiring the use of a multi-switch, make sure that you have the proper multi-switch: a Zinwell WB68 or WB616. If you do have the proper multi-switch, try bypassing it with double-female "barrel" adapters and run your HD receiver(s) straight to the dish lines. It may be defective.

If you don't use a multi-switch, and even if you do, examine all the connectors in your lines for looseness/corrosion, especially at your ground block, which can also be bypassed for testing with barrel adapters. Re-tighten until just snug with a 7/16" wrench. Connectors can cause problems with HD signals which don't appear (yet) with SD signals.

If none of that works for you, you could have a bad LNB. Post your signals on 99(c) and 103(c) the next time you lose HD channels:

Satellite transponders (14 total at 99º(c)/(a))
[New national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA

Satellite transponders (14 total at 103º(c)/(b))
[Most national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA
17-24 0 NA NA NA NA 0 NA NA

I have an HR20 in the living room and a Hr21 in the bedroom, not sure what kind of mulitswitch they put in but looks nothing as fancy as the Zinwell, but at the time it was installed it was the Hr20 and an SD receiver in the bedroom.
Will get those numbers posted tonight, it happens pretty frequently. Thanks

[Steve9060]

here is what it looks like when things are OK...


Satellite transponders (14 total at 99º(c)/(a))
[New national HD channels]
1-8 85 85 81 83 83 81 83
9-16 85 73 85 91 86 NA NA

Satellite transponders (14 total at 103º(c)/(b))
[Most national HD channels]
1-8 85 68 80 65 83 68 80 70
9-16 85 73 80 73 86 77 NA NA
17-24 0 NA NA NA NA 0 NA NA

[Mertzen]

Yeah, that one needs a realign. Not sure what locals you get but if it is the NYC ones there are on Tx 3 on 99s/b.

[K4SMX]

No 60's allowed, although I doubt that's the cause of your current difficulties. You should be able to get mostly all in the 90's on these two satellites, unless your HR21 is an HR21-100, which tend to run 5-10 points less for some reason. With your current alignment, you should get all the HD channels, you just have reduced "rain fade" margin, particularly on 103(c). They won't want to roll a truck on that alignment, unless you're losing channels, which of course you will in downpours, just earlier than you should. Might be easier to fix yourself. It's probably about a turn and a half on the EL fine adjustment knob.

I'm more interested in this multi-switch issue. How many total receivers do you have? If you have more than 4 antenna lines, you definitely have a multi-switch, and you need to find out what model number you have.....

[Steve9060]

Here is all there is coming into the house.

From there two wires go into similar device that goes into my Hr20 in my living room and two wires run right to my Hr21 in my bedroom.


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4760/picture002im4.jpg

[deboxer1]

Those gold connectors appear to be twist on's. Get rid of those and replace them with compression connectors. That is a ground block the cables are connecting to.

[Steve9060]

Those gold connectors appear to be twist on's. Get rid of those and replace them with compression connectors. That is a ground block the cables are connecting to.

So dont need a multi switch?

[deboxer1]

How receivers do you have and what models? A multiswitch would be installed between the dish and the receivers. On the right of the picture, the messenger wire should be the cables from the dish.

[Steve9060]

How receivers do you have and what models? A multiswitch would be installed between the dish and the receivers. On the right of the picture, the messenger wire should be the cables from the dish.

I have two, and HR20 and an HR21. Unless its outside, i don't see it, to the right is where they come in the house.

[deboxer1]

No you dont need a multiswitch, the slimline odu has a built in multiswitch that will support 4 tuners HR20 = 2 tuners, HR21 = 2 tuners, total tuners 4. If your dish is easy to get to, take the lnb off, using a 7/16 wrench take off the cables connected to it and inspected the connectors, look for corrosion, moisture and that the dielectric is seated all the way. Hopefully they will all be compression connectors, again any twist ons or crimped connectors get rid off. Putting the connectors back on the lnb, finger tighten then use the 7/16 to give a 1/4 turn. Do not over tighten, the connections can and will spin inside the lnb.

[toober]

Steve, the first thing you want to be sure of is that the dish is firmly mounted and is not allowed to move or sag after it is aligned. Once you ensure the mast is firm and the dish is properly aligned, make the tech drive a self-tapping screw through the collar so that there is no chance of the dish moving.

[K4SMX]

Here is all there is coming into the house......From there two wires go into similar device that goes into my Hr20 in my living room and two wires run right to my Hr21 in my bedroom......
OK, no multi-switch and none needed. Well you sure don't need a second ground block, but since both receivers are effected, that's not the basic cause of your HD problems. Are they identically effected simultaneously?

Like toober said, it's really hard to say if you might have issues beyond alignment until you get that straightened out. The fact that you keep having to re-align indicates there's something unstable in your dish support. Somethings loose. Why don't you post some close-up pictures of how it's mounted tomorrow. And again, let's see those signal strengths when everything is not OK.....

[Steve9060]

OK, no multi-switch and none needed. Well you sure don't need a second ground block, but since both receivers are effected, that's not the basic cause of your HD problems. Are they identically effected simultaneously?

Like toober said, it's really hard to say if you might have issues beyond alignment until you get that straightened out. The fact that you keep having to re-align indicates there's something unstable in your dish support. Somethings loose. Why don't you post some close-up pictures of how it's mounted tomorrow. And again, let's see those signal strengths when everything is not OK.....

Well, honestly, my problems have always been similar, it can very well be that the dish is not secured properly, but right after the installer left there where problems with some of the HD national channels... So I don’t think its moving but I will check it to be sure. Some of the transponders when i checked later were down to 50s even though it was still working.

I’m hoping it’s a decent realignment is all that’s needed, thanks for the help.

[K4SMX]

The amount of movement required to drop your Ka signals from the 90's to the 50's is very small. You can momentarily bend your dish slightly from one side and see quite a change. So it's really a matter of how your dish is mounted, assuming all these successive installers securely tightened all the fine alignment/main bolts. It would be very unusual, if it were simply an LNB problem, to have intermittent low numbers on both the 99's and the 103's, since they are electrically and physically separate.

If you were to troubleshoot this yourself, you'd probably run a new, temporary cable from one of the LNB ports straight to a receiver/TV and re-peak your dish with the fine adjustment bolts. That way you eliminate cabling/connector issues. It's rather strange that you appear to have a mixture of compression and screw-on (?) connectors on both sides of your grounding block. You need to get rid of any screw-ons everywhere you find them. Do you also have wall plate pass-throughs? More possible connectors there and low quality double-females, if so. All your fittings need to be "up to snuff."

[2dogz]

In the picture, just below the 16p nail, is that a scuff mark or damage to the cable jacket?

[BattleZone]

Twist-on fittings! Aargh! :(

[Johnnie5000]

Twist-on fittings! Aargh! :(

Glad I'm not the only one that hates seeing those.

Those should be replaced, they only cause problems.

[Steve9060]

Glad I'm not the only one that hates seeing those.

Those should be replaced, they only cause problems.

Those go to the bedroom, will replace them, but don’t seem to be the problem as of now..

I finally got some pictures, and wow things are stranger than i thought...


Here is the HR20 in the living room

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/8456/picture001vo1.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2140/picture002il3.jpg

and here is the Hr21 in the bedroom with the twist ons...

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1979/picture003lm7.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6803/picture004fz1.jpg

Sorry for the size....

[Johnnie5000]

I hate walking into a house on a service call and seeing that........:nono2:
Could be several different things. I would definitely try a peaking the dish first. Then probably a new LNB if that didn't work. No switch so no replace there. Could even be the b-bands acting weird. Heck it could just be a bad connector.

[BattleZone]

Steve,

In your top two pics, you are looking at 103 S. The "S" stands for "spotbeam".

In the bottom two pics, you are looking at 103 C. The "C" stands for CONUS, meaning continental US, or "national."

It is totally normal when looking at a spot beam satellite to see some TPs at full strength and some at zero, and a few somewhere in between. That's because only some of the spots are aimed at your area of the country.

The CONUS beams are national, meaning the footprint covers the whole US. You'll want to look at 99C and 103C for the national HD channels, and 99S or 103S for your local HD channels. You need to compare like to like, though, between receivers.

[Steve9060]

Steve,

In your top two pics, you are looking at 103 S. The "S" stands for "spotbeam".

In the bottom two pics, you are looking at 103 C. The "C" stands for CONUS, meaning continental US, or "national."

It is totally normal when looking at a spot beam satellite to see some TPs at full strength and some at zero, and a few somewhere in between. That's because only some of the spots are aimed at your area of the country.

The CONUS beams are national, meaning the footprint covers the whole US. You'll want to look at 99C and 103C for the national HD channels, and 99S or 103S for your local HD channels. You need to compare like to like, though, between receivers.


Ugh, i didnt even notice that, thanks...

[K4SMX]

Your 103(c) shots definitely prove that your dish is out of alignment. Notice the disparity between the odds and the evens. This indicates that the EL is off. Your dish is pointed too high or too low, can't remember which is which, but figure gravity means it's probably too low. The AZ could well be off, too, but definitely the EL. This is fairly easy to fix if you have safe access to your dish, but first you should examine your mounting plate to make sure it's secure. It's very likely that your mast is not plumb anymore.

[Steve9060]

Well Dtv tech came yesterday, and wow he did an amazing job! He took down my old dish and put up a slim line, reran and hid all the wires as well as putting in a new ground bock. My numbers look a lot better, and the wife was able to watch the today show without getting aggravated!!

I really appreciate all the time you guys took to help me out, and advice you guys have given me.

[K4SMX]

Well Dtv tech came yesterday, and wow he did an amazing job! He took down my old dish and put up a slim line, reran and hid all the wires as well as putting in a new ground bock. My numbers look a lot better, and the wife was able to watch the today show without getting aggravated!!

I really appreciate all the time you guys took to help me out, and advice you guys have given me.
All this time, and we didn't know you didn't have a Slimline. Oh, well. Reception problems and the older AT-9's raise a red flag. Most of them are fine, but it does introduce suspicions, since they are somewhat more trouble-prone for several discreet reasons.