View Full Version : Is the HDPC-20 coming soon?
HDTVFreak07
08-21-08, 05:28 PM
That topic has long since disappeared. I know that those testing the thing can not elaborate but... I'd like to know whether or not it is still coming soon and if it will come by the end of 2008! I sure hope it'll come sooner before I know it!
Well the Vista Media Center addon is being tested in beta still. My thoughts would be that when we see that soon to release or release, the HDPC-20 will follow soon after.
and HOPEFULLY not be something like the external cable card devices that only large OEMs could get their hands on.
dbsdave
08-21-08, 06:08 PM
It doesn't look good. Growing consensus is there will be no update for windows vista to enable directv support until windows 7 comes out. So I don't see how the hdcp would work unless they completely change the concept behind the device. We may know more when microsoft gives their big press conference in a few weeks.
Bottom line is directv is going to need to something to move things along because other providers are rapidly passing them when it comes to htpc use.
JoeTheDragon
08-21-08, 07:21 PM
It doesn't look good. Growing consensus is there will be no update for windows vista to enable directv support until windows 7 comes out. So I don't see how the hdcp would work unless they completely change the concept behind the device. We may know more when microsoft gives their big press conference in a few weeks.
Bottom line is directv is going to need to something to move things along because other providers are rapidly passing them when it comes to htpc use.
HTPC will not be good on cable with out have a 2way cable card system. So M$ stuck waiting for that to get moving on HTPC.
Microsoft, DirecTV, Cablelabs, and the shams known as cable companies have done everything they can to make sure that the Hauppauge HD-PVR is the way to go. I'm making tentative plans now to change all of my networked media to an H20 -> Hauppauge HD-PVR -> SageTV.
rcoleman111
08-21-08, 08:06 PM
Microsoft, DirecTV, Cablelabs, and the shams known as cable companies have done everything they can to make sure that the Hauppauge HD-PVR is the way to go. I'm making tentative plans now to change all of my networked media to an H20 -> Hauppauge HD-PVR -> SageTV.
Good move. Why wait around for vaporware when there is a product out there that works right now.
dbsdave
08-21-08, 08:22 PM
HTPC will not be good on cable with out have a 2way cable card system. So M$ stuck waiting for that to get moving on HTPC.
Well there are a lot of different cables companies out there but most along with fios allow you to use a cablecard which allows you to use an hd tivo. That at least allows to transfer hd videos back and forth to a media center pc or other devices, which is more than we can do with directv.
The hauppage is definitely an option but kind of a messy solution with directv compared to what the hdcp-20 was supposed to be.
wingrider01
08-22-08, 05:33 AM
Well the Vista Media Center addon is being tested in beta still. My thoughts would be that when we see that soon to release or release, the HDPC-20 will follow soon after.
and HOPEFULLY not be something like the external cable card devices that only large OEMs could get their hands on.
The media cetern addon aka Fiji has gone gold. It is only available to OEM builders and does not show any support for the Directv units, these where dropped. Big discussion going on over at the Green Button site
rcoleman111
08-22-08, 07:25 PM
The hauppage is definitely an option but kind of a messy solution with directv compared to what the hdcp-20 was supposed to be.
I disagree that it's a messy solution. I have one and it works just fine. The software is a bit crude at this point, but is there any evidence the software that will be used with the HDPC-20 is going to be any better?
dbsdave
08-22-08, 10:57 PM
I disagree that it's a messy solution. I have one and it works just fine. The software is a bit crude at this point, but is there any evidence the software that will be used with the HDPC-20 is going to be any better?
Maybe not messy so much as complicated. I don't see the average sub paying for and setting up 2 directv receivers for full functionality as you need to do with the hauppage and other media center extenders. Not to mention you can't really use hdmi connections at all. Or setting up and using software in conjunction with IR serial controls to control the hr and h20s with their pcs. It does work pretty well though once its setup properly. I do agree the hdpc will be bugridden for quite some time if it ever comes out however. But still much more plug and play for the average user.
rcoleman111
08-23-08, 09:20 AM
Maybe not messy so much as complicated. I don't see the average sub paying for and setting up 2 directv receivers for full functionality as you need to do with the hauppage and other media center extenders. Not to mention you can't really use hdmi connections at all. Or setting up and using software in conjunction with IR serial controls to control the hr and h20s with their pcs. It does work pretty well though once its setup properly. I do agree the hdpc will be bugridden for quite some time if it ever comes out however. But still much more plug and play for the average user.
The Hauppauge PVR is a snap to set up. You just connect it to the component outputs of your DVR or receiver, connect the USB cable from the PVR to a USB input on your PC, install the software, and you're ready to record. Recording to a PC doesn't get much more plug-and-play than that. I'm not familiar enough with the details of the HDPC20 to make a direct comparison, but I do know that the Hauppauge PVR is not hard to set up at all. Maybe you can provide some details about the HDPC20 that demonstrate why it would be easier to work with.
As to not using HDMI, that's by design. It's for making a recording, not an exact digital copy.
The HDCP20 would be fully controlled directly by the PC, it is a direct peripheral instead of the Hauppauge where that is the peripheral that then in turn needs to control the receiver.
The tuning and control is much slower and not all integrated into Media Center as much like it would be with the HDCP20.
But, the Hauppauge is a decent solution...and right now one of the only ones.
dbsdave
08-23-08, 10:25 AM
I am not a fan of the copy protection issues it comes with, but I recently redid my entertainment center which includes a projector, htpc, hr20, xbox 360, ps3 to use only hdmi cables. Much less messy now than when I was using component (which requires seperate audio wiring), vga etc. So I don't really want to take a step backwards and go back to component and optical audio wires.
I did play around with the hauppage myself though last year when my system was still a mess of cables.
rcoleman111
08-23-08, 03:43 PM
The HDCP20 would be fully controlled directly by the PC, it is a direct peripheral instead of the Hauppauge where that is the peripheral that then in turn needs to control the receiver.
The tuning and control is much slower and not all integrated into Media Center as much like it would be with the HDCP20.
The Hauppauge PVR is also controlled by the PC. It does control the receiver and is itself controlled by the PC, but what you're describing really doesn't offer much of an advantage. I'm really just interested in being able to archive certain content from my PVR, so it really isn't any big deal to me whether it's slow changing channels or that it's single-tuner at the moment.
I'm also not sure being integrated into Media Center is going to offer any advantages. If you're using Media Center, you're at the mercy of Microsoft's buggy software and you're vulnerable to any of the problems we've seen where programs don't record because of copy-protection software that doesn't work properly or because of flags being improperly inserted by broadcasters.
And whatever perceived advantages you can cite for the HDPC-20, it's still vaporware. Nobody can even tell you when it will be released. The Hauppauge PVR is here right now and it works reasonably well. If you want to get any of the content off your PVR in HD, this is the way to go.
The Hauppauge is, but the receiver tuner is not directly controlled by the PC. It still must be controlled via a remote interface which can sometimes be buggy and adds a lot of delay and hands off approach to the whole thing. It works great in your case of archiving, but to use it as an everyday DVR gets annoying.
Some really like Media Center though (including me, just never been able to use it with directv properly). Media Center has grown alot and is very good in its latest versions, frankly one of the best DVR systems out there and very configurable. Another advantage is using media center extenders off of the main server...full MRV and live viewing of the tuners on any extender! Plus it does all content (music, videos, internet radio, DVR, live tv, even dvd) all in one!
The idea in my mind is Media Center + HDPC20 is a full replacement for the receiver and DVR and you use Media Center as your DVR. Which at this point, might even be better than Directv's own DVRs and has some very cool tricks (like the MRV I stated above). It is also very configurable and lets the do it yourselfers and power users setup a very powerful whole home entertainment system.
It really just brings together more closely nit integration. I know its not here, but for a whole house system based on Media Center it would be amazing, and I for one would absolutly love it. I would have a server with tons of storage space and the HDPC20 that I could connect to from any of my TVs with Media Center Extenders (including the 360!) to get all of my video, music, and directv content!
rcoleman111
08-24-08, 03:44 PM
The idea in my mind is Media Center + HDPC20 is a full replacement for the receiver and DVR and you use Media Center as your DVR. Which at this point, might even be better than Directv's own DVRs and has some very cool tricks (like the MRV I stated above). It is also very configurable and lets the do it yourselfers and power users setup a very powerful whole home entertainment system.
It really just brings together more closely nit integration. I know its not here, but for a whole house system based on Media Center it would be amazing, and I for one would absolutly love it. I would have a server with tons of storage space and the HDPC20 that I could connect to from any of my TVs with Media Center Extenders (including the 360!) to get all of my video, music, and directv content!
Good information, thanks. Here's another question I have: if you record programs to your PC's hard drive using the HDPC-20, will it be unencrypted, unlike what is stored on DirecTV's DVRs?
Good information, thanks. Here's another question I have: if you record programs to your PC's hard drive using the HDPC-20, will it be unencrypted, unlike what is stored on DirecTV's DVRs?
No, one of the things that Media Center can afford is encrypted storage. It may be tied to the attached tuners as well.
Good information, thanks. Here's another question I have: if you record programs to your PC's hard drive using the HDPC-20, will it be unencrypted, unlike what is stored on DirecTV's DVRs?
No, it would most likely be locked inside the media center application/server.
Content providers will not let you record digital versions of their content and have it open for you to do whatever you like with it...
rcoleman111
08-24-08, 07:31 PM
Regarding the above comments, keep in mind that content providers cannot use HDMI to prevent recording. Under FCC rules, they have to allow at least one generation of copies over encrypted outputs. The most they could use is a copy-once flag.
They are using HDCP specifically so you cannot record the output on HDMI.
HDCP will start to be implemented on more and more channels and is already a feature that the HR2x series receivers support.
Bushwacr
08-24-08, 09:10 PM
They are using HDCP specifically so you cannot record the output on HDMI.
HDCP will start to be implemented on more and more channels and is already a feature that the HR2x series receivers support.
Huh?
HDCP is a hardware validation key designed to prevent midstream intercept of a digital signal between two licensed devices like an HR and a qualified HDTV. HDCP does not apply to analog signals and it's not "channel" embedded.
Are you referring to Tom R's discussion that D* will copy protect all content using the SOC? Different topic entirely with a different set of rules.
HDCP is a way to keep copy protection in place as well since there are no HDCP compatible "recorders" currently and if anyone does come out with one, they can/could be blacklisted. Plus it prevents midstream capturing of the signal because of the verification and encryption.
The analog outputs could potentially only carry a lower quality version or not even output at all on protected channels.
It is not a direct copy prevention, but by only having HDCP output for something it would prevent copying at least as of now since there are no HDCP compatible recording devices. (which could change in the future)
The HDCP is definitely a cleaner and cheaper solution. Its going to rock in 2011 when Microsoft announces support for it in Windows 7, SP2. I'm being pessimistic, of course, it could come as early as late 2009.
edit: and let me just throw in that I have no right to complain compared to people in Europe. Their only satellite service outputs H.264 only so they can't record to VMC without support from Microsoft either. So when DirecTV enforces SOC for premium HD (I dont care if they do it for VOD), I can drop them for Dish and still use my Hauppauge HD-PVR. As far as I know, Europe only has one satellite service, so they could be stuck.
rcoleman111
08-25-08, 12:26 PM
HDCP is a way to keep copy protection in place as well since there are no HDCP compatible "recorders" currently and if anyone does come out with one, they can/could be blacklisted. Plus it prevents midstream capturing of the signal because of the verification and encryption.
Simply not true. I suggest you read the FCC rules, which have been posted in this forum previously. The FCC's "encoding rules" specify the following:
(1) Unencrypted broadcast television – no copy restrictions may be imposed;
(2) Pay television, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access
delivery transmissions – one generation of copies is the most stringent restriction
that may be imposed; and
(3) VOD, PPV, or Subscription-on-Demand transmissions – no copies is the most
stringent restriction that may be imposed, however, even when no copies are
allowed, such content may be paused up to 90 minutes from its initial
transmission.
It's pretty clearcut - they can't use HDMI/HDCP to prevent copying. The most stringent copy-protection that can be used is copy-once, and only for premium and non-premium subscription TV.
Will be interesting to see what happens then, since they have already talked about using HDCP (tune to channel 100 for example) and there currently are no recorders that work with HDCP and I dont know if there will be since other mediums such as Blu-Ray which use HDCP use it as a sort of copy prevention and protection.
BattleZone
08-25-08, 01:42 PM
The "one copy" is the copy you can save on your DVR. A DVR is an HDCP-compliant "1st Gen Copy" device.
They don't want you to be able to copy to removable/transportable/copiable media.
Elephanthead
08-25-08, 03:36 PM
I only need one copy, just let me connect to it through IP. This is a major bummer, this thing will never make it to market. I guess my options are kludge to a DTV box, or record on a DTV box, and hope it doesn't crash and burn, like it does every month and deletes everything. You know none on these protections are preventing one DVD from being pirated or one thing from being posted on you tube. It is all pointless. It only makes me watch less TV, which I guess is a good thing. It just would be nice to be able to watch the 1% of content that is of somewhat entertainment value, rather then have to take potluck chance something will be on.
I only need one copy, just let me connect to it through IP. This is a major bummer, this thing will never make it to market. I guess my options are kludge to a DTV box, or record on a DTV box, and hope it doesn't crash and burn, like it does every month and deletes everything. You know none on these protections are preventing one DVD from being pirated or one thing from being posted on you tube. It is all pointless. It only makes me watch less TV, which I guess is a good thing. It just would be nice to be able to watch the 1% of content that is of somewhat entertainment value, rather then have to take potluck chance something will be on.
There are plenty of IPTV type choices available and more coming very quickly. Couple that with OTA and maybe the answer will be that paying for TV services just isn't as necessary as it once was. Of course, the RIAA took too long to figure that out and drove the customers that were willing to pay away. If iTunes has shown anything it's not that everyone wants to steal music...they just want to buy it quickly and in the form they prefer.
rcoleman111
08-25-08, 06:28 PM
The "one copy" is the copy you can save on your DVR. A DVR is an HDCP-compliant "1st Gen Copy" device.
They don't want you to be able to copy to removable/transportable/copiable media.
Once copy is allowed over encrypted outputs. That means they can't prevent copying from the set-top box or DVR (and remember, not all receivers even have DVRs in them). Doesn't matter what they want you to be able to do. They have to comply with federal regulations.
There are two options for residential distribution of premium HD over IP:
1) Cablecard: You have to purchase a new $2000 OEM PC in order to partake of it for the next year or so until your cable company switches to SDV. Even if they don't, Microsoft will stop supporting it in VMC soon. Oh yeah, it only works in VMC.
2) Hauppauge HD-PVR: Its a kludge, but it works right now. If you're like me, and your media server is out of the way and in a network rack, then the cabling and visual impact is nil. To me, having channel banners and a delay in changing channels is offset by the HR20/21's freezing up from time to time and having the interface of an Atari 2600 in general.
Montyward
08-26-08, 11:56 AM
There are two options for residential distribution of premium HD over IP:
1) Cablecard: You have to purchase a new $2000 OEM PC in order to partake of it for the next year or so until your cable company switches to SDV. Even if they don't, Microsoft will stop supporting it in VMC soon. Oh yeah, it only works in VMC.
2) Hauppauge HD-PVR: Its a kludge, but it works right now. If you're like me, and your media server is out of the way and in a network rack, then the cabling and visual impact is nil. To me, having channel banners and a delay in changing channels is offset by the HR20/21's freezing up from time to time and having the interface of an Atari 2600 in general.
1) You can get a cablecard PC for $800 from HP currently. Dell is around $1,000 to $1,400. These are good PCs, with a Quad-core processor and solid graphics card. Yes, support is in VMC only, a limitation put in place by CableLabs. SDV may be a problem in some areas, not so much in others. I hope there is some sort of resolution for SDV introduced in the coming year, similar to the tuning adapter for Tivo. My greatest hope is that the HDPC becomes a reality sooner than later.
dbsdave
08-26-08, 02:34 PM
The way the "insiders" at greenbutton are talking lately, we will be lucky if the hdpc supported by windows 8, nevermind 7. What a disaster.
The dream HDPC-20, seems to be just that. :(
dbsdave
08-26-08, 08:39 PM
The dream HDPC-20, seems to be just that. :(
Like anything for htpc enthusiasts involving directv and microsoft since the start of time....vaporware.
Like anything for htpc enthusiasts involving directv and microsoft since the start of time....vaporware.
Except this indeed was seen at some technology shows :grin:
There is still hope that it is just in the shadows and could be released with a driver pack that enabled it in MCE...you never know ;)
Except this indeed was seen at some technology shows :grin:
There is still hope that it is just in the shadows and could be released with a driver pack that enabled it in MCE...you never know ;)
I've been hoping for this for quite a while and the more I hear the bleaker it gets. I am hopeful, but I will not anticipate its arrival anytime soon. For some reason collaborative efforts seem to drag out. :rolleyes:
If you think about it, it makes perfect sense for Microsoft to hold H.264/DirecTV support until Windows 7. Here's why:
Even a Microsoft employee on The Green Button will tell you that VMC's target market is a casual user who just wants to play media from their PC on their television. One of the biggest issues on TGB right now is the low resolution of the album cover art in the music queue screen. Seriously: http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/213312.aspx
I would guess that 90% of the people who are considering purchasing SageTV specifically for use with the Hauppauge HD-PVR already own a Vista Premium or Ultimate license already. Microsoft already has their money, and they don't lose any money if people stop using VMC. So why would they add a feature like this to VMC in a free update? Why not hold it out as a carrot to make people purchase Windows 7?
The HDPC exists. Its not vaporware. Support from Microsoft existed at one time as well. From what I understand, the first beta release of Fiji had support for both H.264 and the HDPC as well, until the second beta release removed it intentionally. So yeah, it looks like its being saved for Windows 7... tentatively. Personally, I'm not willing to be jerked around. If Microsoft wont tell someone what's going on, then DirecTV needs to. Meanwhile, both companies have seriously dropped the ball... Microsoft's only method of recording premium HD is a dying expensive solution and DirecTV's only method of recording premium HD is a DVR that makes a Sega Genesis look like MacOS X.
Tom Robertson
08-26-08, 10:02 PM
If you think about it, it makes perfect sense for Microsoft to hold H.264/DirecTV support until Windows 7. Here's why:
Even a Microsoft employee on The Green Button will tell you that VMC's target market is a casual user who just wants to play media from their PC on their television. One of the biggest issues on TGB right now is the low resolution of the album cover art in the music queue screen. Seriously: http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/213312.aspx
I would guess that 90% of the people who are considering purchasing SageTV specifically for use with the Hauppauge HD-PVR already own a Vista Premium or Ultimate license already. Microsoft already has their money, and they don't lose any money if people stop using VMC. So why would they add a feature like this to VMC in a free update? Why not hold it out as a carrot to make people purchase Windows 7?
The HDPC exists. Its not vaporware. Support from Microsoft existed at one time as well. From what I understand, the first beta release of Fiji had support for both H.264 and the HDPC as well, until the second beta release removed it intentionally. So yeah, it looks like its being saved for Windows 7... tentatively. Personally, I'm not willing to be jerked around. If Microsoft wont tell someone what's going on, then DirecTV needs to. Meanwhile, both companies have seriously dropped the ball... Microsoft's only method of recording premium HD is a dying expensive solution and DirecTV's only method of recording premium HD is a DVR that makes a Sega Genesis look like MacOS X.
The nice thing about NDA's is no one can talk about things. The bad thing about NDA's is no one can talk about things...
So if Microsoft and DIRECTV have mutual NDA's (and you can bet they do), DIRECTV might not be able to say anything like "nope, Microsoft screwed with you, so we can't release the HDCP20 until Windows [insert moving target here]".
Since I don't know anything, I can't say that either, except as an example.
Cheers,
Tom
The nice thing about NDA's is no one can talk about things. The bad thing about NDA's is no one can talk about things...
So if Microsoft and DIRECTV have mutual NDA's (and you can bet they do), DIRECTV might not be able to say anything like "nope, Microsoft screwed with you, so we can't release the HDCP20 until Windows [insert moving target here]".
Since I don't know anything, I can't say that either, except as an example.
Cheers,
Tom
I agree with you 100%, Tom, and yeah I can imagine that there is a need for mutual discretion between Microsoft and DirecTV. I kinda see it as both company's way of silently telling power users to seek alternate solutions, and yeah I'm listening.
Oh, c'mon...the number of HDPCs that would be sold isn't enough for Microsoft to even consider when it comes to sales of their OS. They've sold about 200 million Vista licenses so far...do you really think they're holding this back to save a couple of hundred thousand sales (at best) for Windows 7...especially since we know those people would upgrade anyway.
It's more likely that the projected sales and cost of the project didn't make it worthwhile for one/both companies to bring it to market. If DirecTV believed that strongly in the device they could have done their own software...or had someone write it for them.
If you think about it, it makes perfect sense for Microsoft to hold H.264/DirecTV support until Windows 7. Here's why:
Even a Microsoft employee on The Green Button will tell you that VMC's target market is a casual user who just wants to play media from their PC on their television. One of the biggest issues on TGB right now is the low resolution of the album cover art in the music queue screen. Seriously: http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/213312.aspx
I would guess that 90% of the people who are considering purchasing SageTV specifically for use with the Hauppauge HD-PVR already own a Vista Premium or Ultimate license already. Microsoft already has their money, and they don't lose any money if people stop using VMC. So why would they add a feature like this to VMC in a free update? Why not hold it out as a carrot to make people purchase Windows 7?
The HDPC exists. Its not vaporware. Support from Microsoft existed at one time as well. From what I understand, the first beta release of Fiji had support for both H.264 and the HDPC as well, until the second beta release removed it intentionally. So yeah, it looks like its being saved for Windows 7... tentatively. Personally, I'm not willing to be jerked around. If Microsoft wont tell someone what's going on, then DirecTV needs to. Meanwhile, both companies have seriously dropped the ball... Microsoft's only method of recording premium HD is a dying expensive solution and DirecTV's only method of recording premium HD is a DVR that makes a Sega Genesis look like MacOS X.
Oh, c'mon...the number of HDPCs that would be sold isn't enough for Microsoft to even consider when it comes to sales of their OS. They've sold about 200 million Vista licenses so far...do you really think they're holding this back to save a couple of hundred thousand sales (at best) for Windows 7...especially since we know those people would upgrade anyway.
It's more likely that the projected sales and cost of the project didn't make it worthwhile for one/both companies to bring it to market. If DirecTV believed that strongly in the device they could have done their own software...or had someone write it for them.
Its way more than just DirecTV subs waiting H.264 (or more appropriately, whichever format Microsoft will wrap around H.264). Its also people in Europe who receive their television over satellite.
So from what you're all saying it is a marketing/contractual strategy that is upsetting the apple cart and not the capability, which does currently exist. How frustrating is that? I'm sucked in already, but I am leaning towards ignoring the whole issue since I have little time to worry about it anyway.
Its way more than just DirecTV subs waiting H.264 (or more appropriately, whichever format Microsoft will wrap around H.264). Its also people in Europe who receive their television over satellite.
Okay, it's still not many in the scheme of sales. Plus, if as you suggest Microsoft thought it that big a deal they would be selling it as an addon.
While you and I may enjoy using HTPCs it is a very, very small niche at present.
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