Questions for installers E* or D*

[mattmill]

I just moved into a new house this month and it is a wonderfully shady area (LOTS of trees). ZIP is 04011

I have talked to Dish and they told me that I need a compass direction of 251 and elevation of 23 degrees to get service and it might be very close at that.

I called D* and they cannot tell me the compass direction but "as long as I can see the southern sky then I am able to receive service" :bang

Does anyone know the compass and elevation for 04011? I like the dish 508 idea instead of the fee based TIVO but I don't want to buy the equipment and set up install and then be told sorry no line of sight. Would I get the money back for the equipment? No one here wants to come out and do a site survey.

thanks,
matt

[PSB]

Hello Matt,

You will still need a compass but for DirecTV you will need to point your dish at........

239 deg. Azimuth
31 deg. Elevation

looks like DirecTV will give you a beter chance to clear the top of any trees....
Plus its a better service/picture.....
I am a compleatly independant installer so its no skin off my nose what one you choose, just my opinion! Have a nice day!

[Richard King]

Contact a local Dish retailer (not a Radio Shack or Sears) and tell them you want to buy a system. Normally they will come out to install and if they can't find a spot for it there is no charge (at least this is the way I operate). I have only found one house where I couldn't do an installation (my brother's house of course).

[mattmill]

Originally posted by Rking401
Contact a local Dish retailer (not a Radio Shack or Sears) and tell them you want to buy a system.

Here is a pic of the yard. There is a pole from DTV (I think) in the front and it is already wired to the house. The street runs due west and most of the trees are 50-60 feet tall.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze201dk/temporary/yard.jpg

matt

[waydwolf]

Originally posted by mattmill


Here is a pic of the yard. There is a pole from DTV (I think) in the front and it is already wired to the house. The street runs due west and most of the trees are 50-60 feet tall.

(image not quoted, see above)

matt

I'd have to say from that pic if the tree distribution is similar north and south of the east-west street, then it is extremely likely you have no line of sight.

However, pines intercept signal to a much lesser degree than deciduous(maples, and other trees that shed leaves in fall). There seem to be a mix in the picture.

You might get sufficient signal with the standard issue dish, but you may be forced if it isn't, to get separate dishes for each bird, each one quite a bit larger than the normal 18-20 inch round dishes.

I would strongly recommend a REAL professional with references and long experience to do this for you. Not a 20-something kid with his mom's station wagon and an aluminum ladder tied to the luggage rack who has a compass he got in a Cracker Jack box.

At 50-60 feet, the trees at least aren't likely to grow any higher so if you can get line of sight over them from a suitable high point, you should stay okay. Just note that even when a dish is not mounted on the house, GROUNDING IS *STILL* MANDATORY.

[Richard King]

Any dealer who has any experience under his belt should be able to tell you whether it will work. I use a device called a "Sat Site" to site in locations before doing an installation. With this you can tell if it is a go or no go in under a minute. It can be seen here:
http://www.gourmet-ent.com/products/sat.html

Now, to your specific situation, if my basic trig class from high school (a LONG time ago) is still in my brain, you should be able to shoot over a 60' tall tree at an elevation of 20 degrees (119 location) if that 60' tall tree is 135 feet away. Grab a compass and a long tape measure. Site in to an azimuth of 256 degrees (direction to 119 satellite in your location) and measure out 135 feet. If you don't bump into a tree trunk in that 135 feet, and the trees in that direction are 60 feet tall, you should be safe installing a Dish dish. Do I see a water tower sticking above the trees (or is it a transformer on a power pole)? If so, make sure that whatever it is is not in the direction of the satellites. By the way, I don't guarantee my memory or any brain cells. :D

[mattmill]

Thanks for the replies. That is a power transformer over the trees. I was at a home show this weekend and did talk to a pro installer who is coming out on Friday to try the installation. He is pretty convinced that he can get over the trees without much trouble (he has done a lot in the area over the years). The trees are a mix mostly pine but quite a few oak and maple. I'll let you know how it goes on Friday.

thanks,
matt

[Richard King]

Good deal. Congrats and welcome to DBS. I am sure he will be able to find a spot where it will work. I have sometimes ground mounted a dish in a location where it actually shoots under a tree and then shoots over other trees.

[mattmill]

Originally posted by Rking401
Good deal. Congrats and welcome to DBS. I am sure he will be able to find a spot where it will work. I have sometimes ground mounted a dish in a location where it actually shoots under a tree and then shoots over other trees.

Bad News :( No line of sight unless I can convince two neighbors to chop down their big trees in the front yard.

He said that we could get D* if we pole mount in the front yard. There is a pole there already from the previous owners but they only ran one cable to the house and I'll need to dig up the yard and cross a sidewalk to get extra cable. How many should there be? I want a TiVo and regular reciever for now is that 3 cable runs or just two? Also it looks like our locals will be up this year??? Portland, ME will that require an additional line and seperate dish or all on one.

Sorry for all the questions I did all my research for Dish.

matt

[scooper]

You may be able to get 101, but if Portland is on 119, you still won't be able to get it if the installer said you can't get Dish.

If you can get 119, do yourself a favor and do 4 cables from the dish to the house.

[mattmill]

Originally posted by scooper
You may be able to get 101, but if Portland is on 119, you still won't be able to get it if the installer said you can't get Dish.

If you can get 119, do yourself a favor and do 4 cables from the dish to the house.

I am hoping that the higher angle for DirectTV will allow me to get the 119 and I am going to call the installer Monday and ask about that.

Is there any need for more than 4? If I have to dig anyway let's do it once :) .

Also, those of you that do installs (not personal but professional) when you pole mount in concrete what is the "typical" way to run the wire? I have fears of having to chop concrete to get new wires in the pole.

thanks all,
matt

[boba]

The 119 location is the same wether it is DISH or DIRECTV if you can't see the satellite YOU CAN'T SEE THE SATELLITE.

[ERSanders]

You may want to wait until the deciduous trees are in full bloom to commit to your install. The signal can be diminished by just a small branch (with leaves) in your line-of-sight.

Remember that the actual look angle of the dish is about 22 degrees higher than it appears due to the offset LNB (the LNB is lower than the center of a normal parabolic dish).

[jeffwtux]

If you live in Maine, it's probably more of a "Western Sky", then a "Southern Sky". They are too used to saying that people need ot see the "south" when for many people, it's far more west than south for Dish. They just tell everybody that they need ot see south.

[RJS1111111]

Have you considered hiring one of those?

[Bob Haller]

Do yourself a BIG favor!! Run a conduit PLASTIC PIPE from the dish to the house. Then thread the cable thru the pipe, ideally one piece of flexible conduit. Makes cable replacing easy while protecting the run. With conduit it doesnt have to be real deep. Perhaps just a few inches.

Did you know that if you dig a hole on either side of the sidewalk you can use a electric drill and lage bit to put a hole underground.

To save money on the install do the grunt work yourself like ditch digging.

[Richard King]

Did you know that if you dig a hole on either side of the sidewalk you can use a electric drill and lage bit to put a hole underground.I usually do this with a piece of conduit, a reducer and a hose, using water pressure. I have gone under 10' wide driveways this way in the past. It is time consuming though.

Plastic conduit up the pole with a sweep piece at the base of the pole (in the cement) and a long run to the house works very well. Here's a Starband install similar to your situation: http://www.pbase.com/image/214545 Florida sand is easier to dig than Maine dirt though. Good luck.

[mattmill]

Thanks, the lumberjack would be great :). Conduit will be tough since the pole is under a very large oak tree. I started to dig today and the amount of roots in just 4 feet to the sidewalk has been unbelievable. At least the sidewalk is brick so I can pull one row and bury it that way.

I hope that this will all be worth it when it is completed. Never owned a Tivo before and looking forward to it.

matt

[mattmill]

Originally posted by PSB
Hello Matt,

You will still need a compass but for DirecTV you will need to point your dish at........

239 deg. Azimuth
31 deg. Elevation

looks like DirecTV will give you a beter chance to clear the top of any trees....
Plus its a better service/picture.....
I am a compleatly independant installer so its no skin off my nose what one you choose, just my opinion! Have a nice day!

What is the elevation for Direct TV at 119? I cannot see E* 119 but my locals will be up on D*119 later this year (maybe). Is it the same bird or are they different and at the higher elevation. Install is Saturday and only have the 18" dish on order but might change to the 18x20(24) if I can get that.

matt

[Richard King]

The elevation to DirecTv at 119 is the same as for Dish at 119, that being 20 degrees. If you can't see Dish at that location you also can't see Directv.

[mattmill]

Originally posted by Rking401
The elevation to DirecTv at 119 is the same as for Dish at 119, that being 20 degrees. If you can't see Dish at that location you also can't see Directv.

That stinks :mad:

How are the dish mounted antennas for local or better off with a roof top/attic mount? Our rabbit ears are pretty poor right now.

matt

[Richard King]

The dish mounted ones are pretty much useless. Do a roof mount if you can. Good luck.

[ScottK]

I'm in heavily wooded Windham, Maine (just west of Portland). Howdy neighbor.

Keep in mind that for a Dish 500 (or the DirecTV equivalent that "sees" more than one satellite), you actually need an arc line of sight, rather than a spot, since you are looking at two or more orbital slots with the same dish. That can be a real problem in a heavily wooded area.

One solution, if you have a "hole" in the canopy to shoot through, is a multi-dish installation. For Dish Network, for instance, you'd have two separate Dish300 dishes, offset by about 15-30 feet (depending on the distance to the canopy hole) shooting through the same hole at different angles to see each orbital location. This way, you only need a "hole" in the trees 6 or 7 degrees across (do consider growth factors, if applicable) to get line of sight.

Unless you live in a very dense forest, you should be able to find a LOS somewhere on your property. Sometimes you have to be creative... and installers usually aren't. You can always get ahold of a compass with inclinometer and do your own site survey. When shooting through small holes, be VERY precise. I did my own multidish install in a difficult wooded locale. The hardest part is taking precise compass and elevation readings and choosing the exact spot for the dish.

-Scott

[mattmill]

Originally posted by ScottK
I'm in heavily wooded Windham, Maine (just west of Portland). Howdy neighbor.

Howdy neighbor! My wife grew up in Casco and her dad lives in Otisfield so I know the area. :)

I am having Direct TV install on Saturday and I will talk to the installer (wasn't home for the dish install last week) and see what he did try to do. I might be able to tree mount a second for the 119 location but I need to wait for the canopy to leaf out first and see if the hole that I see now will be there in June.

matt

[Mike500]

Most installers will not perform the necessary work or are unable to. The trulu professional method is to use a high precision theodolite and locate each satellite aperature. If there is a collimated laser attached to this theodolite, at night, a good surveyor could locate the exact position of the hole through the tree canopy that is clear or locate the position for future cutting. For each position of each satellite, this aperature is about the size of the dish, which is some 18-20 inches. In essence, the signal is gathered from an elliptical cylinder between the satellite and the dish for each satellite position in the geosynchronus orbit.

[rcwilcox]

Try this. this site will give you a specific day and time when the moon will be directly behind the desired sattelite as in if you can see the moon you can put a dish at that site. You will need your latitude and longitude and the sat you want to see. I have used this where trees were tough and I found a spot where I would never have thought I would find anything. Yes you may need two dishes at two different spots.

http://perso.numericable.fr/~gjullien/satellite.htm

[mattmill]

Originally posted by rcwilcox
Try this. this site will give you a specific day and time when the moon will be directly behind the desired sattelite as in if you can see the moon you can put a dish at that site.

http://perso.numericable.fr/~gjullien/satellite.htm

WOW! that's awesome. If I am understanding the site correctly I should be able to find it on Saturday.

Thanks!
matt

[rcwilcox]

Here is hoping it is not too cloudy to see. Be careful when you read the site. It gives you when the moon is just right but also gives you when it is sort of close. For instance for my location for 119 Sunday the moon is close. At the appointed time it is off about one and one half degrees in both azmuth and elevation. Not much for sure but if you are real tight something to allow for. Having said that one degree is not much so don't allow much. If you use a pro installer this could get him real close and if needed he could use his meter to fine tune the exact location. Just some thoughts. Good luck.