View Full Version : U.S. soldiers kill 7 women and children in van when it doesn't stop
James_F
04-01-03, 12:16 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.van.shooting/index.html
No mention of this here yet? I know the soldiers are between a rock and a hard place, but could they have been more unlucky. Yea its Saddams fault for pushing these people on our soldiers, but everytime this happens its a victory for the iraqis.
George_F
04-01-03, 01:18 PM
Whether it was panic, fear, carelessness, concern, doesn't really matter. It is a trajedy and something that the soldier will have to live with. What an absolute hellish feeling that must be. He has my sympathy.
Most Iraqis don't speak or read english. If the U.S. military is going to follow a policy of shooting any car that comes too close, then they need to put up large Arabic warning signs, and they need Arabic-speaking soldiers with loudspeakers on hand.
Dgenx321
04-01-03, 02:05 PM
They had a check point, it didn't stop. It got blown up. Their fault not ours..
John Walsh
04-01-03, 02:07 PM
Most people do understand having a rifle pointed at you by a bunch of soldiers and warning shots.
I think that is the universal sign for stop or die
Punkitup
04-01-03, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Ken_F
Most Iraqis don't speak or read english. If the U.S. military is going to follow a policy of shooting any car that comes too close, then they need to put up large Arabic warning signs, and they need Arabic-speaking soldiers with loudspeakers on hand.
I don't know about the need for an Arabic-speaking Soldier or Marine at absolutely every checkpoint, as a lot can be accomplished with key phrases and gestures once the vehicle has been stopped. The main issue here is getting them to stop before they close to a distance where they pose a potential threat to those manning the checkpoint.
I would absolutely agree on the need for Arabic language signs, and have been thinking that same thing myself. For all I know there are signs present, but if not I would think there would need to be a series of signs in Arabic posted as a vehicle closed on a checkpoint, something along the lines of "Prepare to stop ahead" then "Prepare to stop ahead or you will be fired upon" then "STOP HERE and exit vehicle or you will be fired upon".
I don't think this would be any compromise to security, and in fact makes practical sense. Any vehicle that did pass that final sign should be fired upon at the discretion of those manning the checkpoint. And I would go you one further, any vehicle that turned away from the checkpoint after seeing the signs should be regarded with suspicion, that doesn’t mean you open up on them, but you should have a force in place to overtake and investigate them.
Pray for Peace
James – USMC 1980-84
"Armed and Curious" (http://www.radiofreerecording.com/armed.jpg) - The George Bush story
They had a check point, it didn't stop. It got blown up. Their fault not ours..No, they didn't stop where they were supposed to stop. Perhaps the driver thought he was supposed to drive up to where the soldiers were yelling and waving.
As far as firing a warning shot, if someone began firing on me as I approached an intersection, and I had no understanding why or what they wanted, I might well speed up or veer off to the side, hoping to avoid the fire and pass on my way. Hell, in Iraq, it may not be uncommon for rogue soldiers to fire on vehicles; in that event, the driver may just have been acting on experience, not understanding the intentions of the U.S. soldiers.
I say again there need to be Arabic signs of some sort, as punkitup indicated above.
Dgenx321
04-01-03, 06:21 PM
There are signs, they showed them on Fox News today..
firephoto
04-01-03, 06:27 PM
Sure, real smart, someone's shooting at you so you KEEP driving towards them. Unless Iraqi cars are different, they have brakes just like ours.
Was it said somewhere that there weren't any arabic signs up to tell the drivers to stop or anything obvious that would let the drivers know to stop?
Try on this scenario - suicide bomber type at the wheel, innocent women/chilldren as "unwilling" passengers (hostages).
It's all about middle-east and world opinion. What better to inflame the Arabs even more, not that they need a reason.
Expect more such unimaginable acts of horrible violence against the Iraqi populace. We will never win "world opinion", so let's pull out the heavy stuff and put this baby to bed! We can't continue to 'tip-toe through the daisies', afraid of stepping on even one. It's gonna happen. Sad, but enevitible.
Keep your eye on the ultimate goal - freeing the Iraqi people and ridding the world of a brutal monster, the BUTCHER of BAGHDAD.
James_F
04-01-03, 06:59 PM
OK Nick, but if we piss the whole population off in the meantime, how the hell will we be able to help them out. They seem to hate Saddam and the US with the same passion. Its a PR war out there and we are losing it.
But James, the US lost the PR war a long time ago. Remember all the Palestinians in the streets of Jerusalem cheering when the WTC went down on 9/11? The only thing the arabs respect is strength. What would you have the US do -- prosecute the war based on opinion polls?
We are not in Iraq to win a popularity contest. We are there to do an absolutley necessary job. One that no one wants to do - take out the garbage.
All the other arab leaders are taking verbal pot shots at us in front of the cameras, but secretly and diplomatically they are supporting what we are doing They want the SOB gone as much, if not more than we and the Iraqis do.
Hussein is/was prepared to play political dominos in the desert while at the same time supporting, funding and supplying terrorism against the US. So it turns out we are the hired gun and what we are doing has to be done.
I understand that many Americans just don't have the stomach for war, but what is the alternative - spar with Hussein and the UN for the next 25 years?
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE AND NEVER HAS BEEN. FREEDOM MUST BE DEFENDED AT ALL COSTS. THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE. I WOULD MUCH RATHER WE FIGHT ON THE BANKS OF THE EUPHRATES AND THE SHORES OF TRIPOLI THAN IN THE STREETS OF BALTIMORE, SAN DIEGO OR PHOENIX.
How about you?
Quoting my prescient self: "Try on this scenario - suicide bomber type at the wheel, innocent women/chilldren as "unwilling" passengers (hostages)."
According to a FOX News report just aired at 11:45 AM ET today, that is exactly what happened. Damn.
Edit:
From an interview with Shiia cleric Sayyid Mohammed Baqir Mohir (english translation by unnamed interpreter)
"...Those people...women and children...were put into the bus by Saddam Hussein's forces...and the husbands and fathers were taken hostage, and the driver (of the bus) was ordered to speed up at the checkpoint and not stop so that they would be shot at..."
Just damn!
James_F
04-02-03, 09:53 AM
Nick, they never asked us to come in. We just assume they want us there. Maybe we will be proved right in a few years, but today we are invaders, not liberators.
James, we are all different. We have different backgrounds, upbringings and experiences. It is perfectly undertandable that we all think differently, and have a perfect right to do so. But in this case your stinking thinking is REALLY f**ked up. Aren't you paying attention to what is really going on?
Quit being an apologist. It doesn't look good on you.
Of all the horrendous things we've heard that Saddam Hussein and his cronies have done, I have a strong feeling that we haven't heard the worst of it. And it won't take "years" to prove you wrong. It is going to be a matter of a few weeks or months.
Get a clue.
John Walsh
04-02-03, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by James_F
Nick, they never asked us to come in. We just assume they want us there. Maybe we will be proved right in a few years, but today we are invaders, not liberators.
As far as I am concerned this 'Liberation" action was totally necessary. Yeah Saddam was bad and he did a lot of bad things but I really think that it goes way beyond that. They obviously need to secure the oil in the region and I have no problem with that. If Iraq would have invaded a neighboring country and taken over their oil then Iraq would have too much control over the worlds oil. Unfortunately we are VERY dependent on oil and that won't change soon.
As far as these people being shot at checkpoints.... The military must defend themselves, This is war
James_F
04-02-03, 10:20 AM
I have a clue Nick. I don't like my money going to worthless causes. Why should I mortgage my future retirement because of some people in a place that don't give a rats ass about us. We have been in Afghanistan for over a year and they still don't have the country occupied. Why do you think Iraq will be any different. :rolleyes: Stop watching Fox News Nick, it makes you look uninformed.
James_F
04-02-03, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by John Walsh
As far as these people being shot at checkpoints.... The military must defend themselves, This is war
Absolutely. I wouldn't blame the soldiers for anything. Its the Bush Administration that should be held accountable for their lack of understanding about what would go on.
Sheeeesh!
What is it about...
"...Those people...women and children...were put into the bus by Saddam Hussein's forces...and the husbands and fathers were taken hostage, and the driver (of the bus) was ordered to speed up at the checkpoint and not stop so that they would be shot at..."
...that you don't understand? :shrug:
:rolleyes:
James_F
04-02-03, 10:50 AM
And why were they put on the bus? To stop us. Yes its the Chicken and the Egg thing Nick, we just look at it from different sides. Saddam is a ******* who should be taken care of. I just don't think this is the way.
James_F
04-02-03, 10:53 AM
BTW, why is B A S T A R D a blocked word? :confused:
Ok, James. Please tell me how you would do it?
James_F
04-02-03, 10:58 AM
Through the UN.
John Walsh
04-02-03, 11:01 AM
ok - I'll jump in on this. I respect your opinion James - not attacking that but don't you think 12 years was long enough in the UN?
James_F
04-02-03, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by John Walsh
ok - I'll jump in on this. I respect your opinion James - not attacking that but don't you think 12 years was long enough in the UN?
I don't look at it that way. Yes its been 12 years since the Gulf War, but progress has been made. I think the inspections were working, but we never gave them a chance. Could one say that the reason they were working was that fact that we had troops? Maybe, but I think the bigger reason was the the world was united behind inspections. Now we are out on a limb by ourselves on this which I think is a bad place to be.
"Through the UN."
:thats: :lol: :rolling: :hurah: :rotfl: :rolling: :lol: :rolling: !rolling :hurah:
James_F
04-02-03, 11:20 AM
Yea laugh because that is what the US has made the UN. You are right, it is now worthless, but we have no one to blame but Dubbya.
Richard King
04-02-03, 11:29 AM
Through the UN. :lol: You just made me spit on my screen.
Richard King
04-02-03, 11:31 AM
BTW, why is B A S T A R D a blocked word?I suspect because someone here just learned that word and thought he had to use it in every other post that he makes (only on Fridays though).
James_F
04-02-03, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Rking401
:lol: You just made me spit on my screen.
Exactly, so what do you propose? Disband the UN. If the UN cannot solve this Iraq problem then why bother?
James_F
04-02-03, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Rking401
I suspect because someone here just learned that word and thought he had to use it in every other post that he makes (only on Fridays though).
I've forgotten about him since he was banned.... :coffee
Richard King
04-02-03, 11:41 AM
If the UN cannot solve this Iraq problem then why bother?Agree. The UN has been useless for years. So long as both, the US and countries such as France are on the SC, they will remain useless. Let them stick to charitable ventures like UNICEF.
James_F
04-02-03, 11:42 AM
That is fine, but what do we do if the rest of the world doesn't subscribe to this....
Maybe we need a new thread....
I am in agreement with you on this because I do view France as hurting the UN even more than the US does.
Richard King
04-02-03, 11:43 AM
When was he banned and what did he finally do to have this happen? :D
I am in agreement with you Can I frame this?
James_F
04-02-03, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Rking401
When was he banned and what did he finally do to have this happen? :D
No idea... He just emailed me and told me he was banned. I feel embedded in this. :bang
Can I frame this?
No you may not. :p
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