Will the U.S. sell out Israel after the war is over?

[James_F]

OK, the war in Iraq is over and there are millions of Muslim "brothers" angry at the U.S. and U.K. How do we "appease" them to quiet down?

Solve the Palestinian problem by forcing Israel to abandon the west bank and Gaza and share Jerusalem with the Palestinians. There is no way after this war that this can be ignored and I think the U.S. and U.K. as well as the E.U. will make this happen. Tough times for Israel.

[Nick]

"How do we "appease" them to quiet down?"

We don't. Let them suck sand.

[James_F]

You can't be serious Nick. You know the Dubbya will do this. He wants to make sure our "friends" (Jordan, Egypt) are not overthrown.

[Nick]

James, I'm as serious as a heart attack.

I hope the United States of America has finally gotten out of the 'appeasement' business. The real question is how are they going to "appease" the U.S.

There's a new sheriff in town, son, and he's kicking butt.

[platinum]

Originally posted by Nick
James, I'm as serious as a heart attack.

I hope the United States of America has finally gotten out of the 'appeasement' business. The real question is how are they going to "appease" the U.S.

There's a new sheriff in town, son, and he's kicking butt.

:goodjob:

[James_F]

I doubt it Nick. We never follow through on this stuff. While I hope you are right (Appeasement never solves problems), I don't think we will stop. North Korea and Palastine will be the tests so we should know really soon.

Still Israel will be abandoned I'm almost sure of it. Big mistake, but we will do this to win over Europe and Russia.

[Rick_EE]

We won't sell out Israel. Not while Jews in America vote.

[James_F]

To protect our interests overseas? We'd sell them out in a second. Why do we care about them if our own security could be improved?

[gcutler]

James, What is your definition of "Selling Out"? There are many Israelis who would love to be done with the Settlements in the West Bank and Gaza as some feel the settlements only contain religious fanatics. Many secular Israelis don't want to put their lives on the line to defend the settlements.

The only thing you describe that would probably be universally rejected by Israelis would be sharing of Jerusalem.

[James_F]

True, what I meant is Jerusalem. My wife is Israeli and we are both tired of both sides. I'd love to see the U.S. force Israel and Palestine to settle.

[gcutler]

The question of sharing Jerausalem would be a problem. Who would keep the peace there. The Israelis don't trust the UN, the Palestinians don't really trust the US. Probably have to move the entire Irish, NewZealand and Swedish armies into Jerusalem just to find a big enough force that both sides would trust.

[James_F]

But why should we trust the Israelis? The will act in their own self interest (I don't blame them for that). We need an open city where all can respect each other (I will now step down from by soapbox).

[gcutler]

Originally posted by James_F
But why should we trust the Israelis? The will act in their own self interest (I don't blame them for that). We need an open city where all can respect each other (I will now step down from by soapbox).

The only way there can be an "Open City" is with a "Neutral Police Force" running things. A UN or EU force and the Israelis would feel past history prevents neutrality. A US force and the Palestinains would feel past history prevents neutrality. A shared Israeli/Palestinian force has proven that it can't work. Thats why I facitiously said the Irish/NewZealand/Swedish force would be needed to keep the city OPEN.

An Open City where everyone respects each other is a pipe dream, an Open city where peace is kept by a force both trust is the only way an open city can work (if at all???)

Although you mention an International Force keeping the peace in Jerusalem and those the who believe in "Endtime Prophecy" will believe the force is a tool of Satan (Roger/Rage to add to the topic)

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Nick
James, I'm as serious as a heart attack.

I hope the United States of America has finally gotten out of the 'appeasement' business. The real question is how are they going to "appease" the U.S.

There's a new sheriff in town, son, and he's kicking butt.

Good, then let everyone suck sand, including Israel. We could put that 30% of our foreign aid budget they get to some pretty good use.

[RichW]

There is no way that the American voter would allow the Bush administration to do such a thing unilaterally and I don't think that Israel would do such on its own. And since Syria is proving uncooperative with the USA, the Golan will remain in Israeli hands.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to Iraq itself after the War. The US says that it will be up ot the Iraqis. If that we really the case, look for three new countries. However, that probably will not happen be cuase it would be opposed by several countries, including the USA.

[James_F]

3 new countries. Now that would piss off every Muslim government.

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by James_F
OK, the war in Iraq is over and there are millions of Muslim "brothers" angry at the U.S. and U.K. How do we "appease" them to quiet down?

Solve the Palestinian problem by forcing Israel to abandon the west bank and Gaza and share Jerusalem with the Palestinians. There is no way after this war that this can be ignored and I think the U.S. and U.K. as well as the E.U. will make this happen. Tough times for Israel.

Wait. If the US wanted to appease the Muslims of the world, they would have never gone into Iraq.

Hell, Bush pissed off France, Germany and other piss ant countries in Europe; in addition to all the Muslim and a few million ignorant peaceniks out there.

The whole idea that the US needs to appease seems to be a little off target.

This was already tried. The whole Clinton/ Barak thing. Barak offered Arafat practically everything the Palestinians wanted; but then Arafat started demanding more (surprise!) and the deal fell through.

Even if Bush wanted to, I doubt he could force it since Israel and their Palestinian neighbors wouldn't accept it. I figure you need at least one side.

No, the Palestinian Authority is about as useful for peace as Hussein is. You eliminate the corrupt leadership (how did Arafat get to be worth $20+ million dollars? He never had a job in his life!). You take out all the anti American and Anti Israel teaching in the schools, you assist in building a solid infrastructure with elected leadership. Then you can start talking about a country.

But as it stands, a culture of people who send their children to die on behalf of the parents does not have the capacity of running a country.

I've posted this pic before, but it's relevent here too:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030328/capt.1048873254.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl107 .jpg

[James_F]

So what you are saying is don't bother with Palestine? Just let it simmer?

All the picture says to me is people have nothing to live for so they look to dictators to solve their problems. If they had jobs and homes they wouldn't be out in the street. A good economy solves everything.

[Halfsek]

No, I said:

...You take out all the anti American and Anti Israel teaching in the schools, you assist in building a solid infrastructure with elected leadership. Then you can start talking about a country.



If you haven't, you should really check out what they teach in the schools there. You should hear some of the school kid songs they sing. It's not a climate for peace- forced or otherwise.

:D

[James_F]

But how do we get there? Two ways. Eliminate leadership or help the economy to the point the leadership is irrelevant. Arafat would be irrelevant if the economy was strong and business leaders were in the Parliament.

[Halfsek]

Exactly. When it comes to peace, Arafat is irrelevant.
The leadership has to be eliminated for the economy to prosper and the people to grow. But as long as Arafat is there, the people will never leave the cycle of poverty and hatred for anything western.

If this Iraq war (so far) proves anything, the attacking of a Muslim leader doesn't result in massive violent reprisals. I think it's about time that Arafat's car loses it's breaks on a very windy road up in the mountains....

[James_F]

Maybe, but I'd like to think we could do with without that. Killing a leader can make more enemies, but having his own people vote him out would be better.

[Richard King]

Arafat would be irrelevant if the economy was strong and business leaders were in the Parliament.Business leaders in the Parliament? We can't even get them in the House or Senate here. We just keep stuffing one lawyer after another in there, as I am sure would happen over there also. Business leaders don't have the time to run for office, they are too busy doing serious work. :D

[James_F]

All we have are business leaders in ours (mostly failed) ;)

[Nick]

I remember when Arafat was a PLO terrorist. Whoops, he still is. :)

I have the solution. Let the Palestinians stop sending murdering homocide bombers into Israel. Geez, why didn't someone think of that before? :rolleyes:

[James_F]

Until Arafat is gone that won't happen.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by James_F
To protect our interests overseas? We'd sell them out in a second. Why do we care about them if our own security could be improved?

I don't think you comprehend just what kind of loyalty and dedication the Government and all US governments in the last 50+ years have had to Israel.
The US almost went into a FULL SCALE NUCLEAR WAR with The Soviet Union during the Yom Kippur War because it was worried that the Soviet Union was going to invade Israel and crush them.
If all the nuclear powere Russia, China, France, The UK, India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, and EVERY SINGLE country on earth formed an alliance and attacked Israel, the US would fight AGAINST that alliance of every country on earth to protect Israel.
Most people don't feel about their own children the way the US government feels about Israel.
HELL WILL FREEZE over before the US becomes Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian, hell, PIGS WILL FLY the day the US becomes evenhanded/unbias in the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
People don't COMPREHEND how strong Israel is not just in the military or economic sense, but in the sense of having loyalty from the strongest and richest people in the world and the people who run the world.
Israel is SO STRONG that the IDF can even kick the US Marine's butts and get away with it.
The IDF harrassed and threatened the US Marines in Lebanon in the early 80s according to articles I've read.
Many books from military people also say that Israel intentionally destroyed the USS Liberty and it's also alleged that Israel intentionally killed Americans and tried to frame Egypt during the Lavon Affair.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by Nick
"How do we "appease" them to quiet down?"

We don't. Let them suck sand.

In other words give the Palestinians some of the same good old treatment that was given to the Native Americans and African Slaves right?
You know it sure is a GREAT thing that our ancestors didn't "APPEASE" the Native Americans ain't it?

[Jack White]

Originally posted by gcutler


The only way there can be an "Open City" is with a "Neutral Police Force" running things. A UN or EU force and the Israelis would feel past history prevents neutrality. A US force and the Palestinains would feel past history prevents neutrality. A shared Israeli/Palestinian force has proven that it can't work. Thats why I facitiously said the Irish/NewZealand/Swedish force would be needed to keep the city OPEN.

An Open City where everyone respects each other is a pipe dream, an Open city where peace is kept by a force both trust is the only way an open city can work (if at all???)

Although you mention an International Force keeping the peace in Jerusalem and those the who believe in "Endtime Prophecy" will believe the force is a tool of Satan (Roger/Rage to add to the topic)

Israel doesn't allow ANYONE besides the US to negociate or have to do anything inside Israel.
Israel doesn't trust any country(not even Turkey or India).
Israel doesn't even trust the US 100% and that's why Israel has 400 to 500 nuclear weapons because it doesn't trust the US 100% to help it in a time of need even though the US will ALWAYS be 100% Pro-Israel.
THE ONLY International Peacekeeping Force that will ever be allowed in Israel, The West Bank, or Gaza by Israel is one that will be comprised of Israelis and Americans only.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by Nick
I remember when Arafat was a PLO terrorist. Whoops, he still is. :)

I have the solution. Let the Palestinians stop sending murdering homocide bombers into Israel. Geez, why didn't someone think of that before? :rolleyes:

I remember reading when Sharon belonged to Israeli Terrorist groups like The Stern Gangs and The Irgun even though that was a lifetime before I was born.
Israel was CREATED WITH TERRORISM.
Modern Terrorism was INVENTED by Israel.
I believe that the MOST famous EARLY terrorist act in modern terrorism was when ISRAELI TERRORISTS blew up the King David Hotel.
The World REWARED Israeli Terrorism by giving them a country.
Israel's former Prime Minister Begin was considered the WORLD's #1 Terrorist by the world.
The WORD Terrorist was INVENTED by the British to describe what the NEW FORM Of Gurella Warfare Against CIVILIANS that the Israelis groups like the Stern Gangs and Irgun has INVENTED.
I also remember when Sharon was a War Criminal, whoops 6 BILLION people still SAY HE IS, and only a few naive Americans and Israelis think he's not.

[waydwolf]

Originally posted by Jack White


I also remember when Sharon was a War Criminal, whoops 6 BILLION people still SAY HE IS, and only a few naive Americans and Israelis think he's not.

    Where do you get THAT nonsense from? I don't think he's a war criminal and most of the rest of the world doesn't either. In fact, the only ones who think he's a war criminal are those who want every Jew exterminated and dead. Like neo-Nazis, Klansmen, half of the Muslim world(which began slaughtering Jews already within their society since over a thousand years BEFORE Mohammed around the time of the first Jihad, see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/century7.html)

    Why is it there's so much anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish blather whenever there's something going on in the middle east?

[DmitriA]

The problem is not about this settlement or that settlement or this area of Jerusalem or another. The fundamental problem is that the security of Israel cannot be maintained if a Palestinian state (with a standing army , sovereignty of borders, etc) is created. Just think - there is a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv (and no amount of Israeli, UN, US, pick your own country force is going to stop them). But now Israel can't retaliate and go after the terrorist infrastructure - it's in another country. You go in, you essentially declare war and get condemend by the world community as aggressors. And the PLA or whatever it will be called then will of course deny all responsiblity - hey, it wasn't us, it was those damn Hamas/Islamic Jehud people. We can't control them. And you are back where you started, which is unfortunately where all of this is going end up in a few years...

I think it was Golda Meir that said that there is not going to be peace among Israelis and Palestinians until the Palestinians stop hating the Jews more than they love their own children and stop letting their sons and daughters go on these suicide bomber missions

[RandyAB]

Personally I think the only reason all of the Muslim countries do not attack Israel is because they have Nuclear weapons. Take that away and I think you have even more violence.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by waydwolf


    Where do you get THAT nonsense from? I don't think he's a war criminal and most of the rest of the world doesn't either. In fact, the only ones who think he's a war criminal are those who want every Jew exterminated and dead. Like neo-Nazis, Klansmen, half of the Muslim world(which began slaughtering Jews already within their society since over a thousand years BEFORE Mohammed around the time of the first Jihad, see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/century7.html)

    Why is it there's so much anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish blather whenever there's something going on in the middle east?

That is NOT NONSENSE, you're out of touch with the rest of the world.
Have you seen the votes in the General Assembly where there are hundreds of countries that say that East Jerusalem is Palestinian land for example, and only 2 or 3 countries like The USA and TINY countries like Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, etc say it's part of Israel.
The VAST majority of the world TOTALLY disagrees with the Neocons.
It's NOT just Europe or the Moslem world, it's also places like China, Russia, Australia, East Asia, etc.
Hell, go north to Canada or south to Mexico and you'll find tons of people who will say that Sharon is a War Criminal.
Hell, you'll find tens of millions of people here in the good old US of A that will say that Sharon is a war criminal.
4 things are UNDENIABLE FACTS.
1: The IDF WAS in control of Sabra and Shatila.
2: THE GENEVA CONVENTION states that "An Army, being an occupation force under the Fourth Geneva Convention and Protocol 1, becames responsible for the security of the civilian population under its control."
3:THOUSANDS OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN were BUTCHERED in a GENOCIDAL WAR CRIME in Sabra and Shatilla.
4: Sharon was the LEADER of the part of the IDF that was in Sabra and Shatila when this horrible war crime happened.

It's even easy to prove in a war crimes tribunal that Sharon ORDERED the militia into Sabra and Shatila that butchered those untold thousand or thousands of people.

There were 400,000 Israeli Jews who protested in the streets after it happened calling Sharon a War Criminal so where do you get off saying that anyone who's says Sharon is a war criminal is anti-semitic?

Here's a good EYE Witness report about what happened there.
There were TONS of Eye Witnessess who would testify if Shron is ever tried at the Hague.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/drbenalofs1.html

[James_F]

Originally posted by DmitriA
I think it was Golda Meir that said that there is not going to be peace among Israelis and Palestinians until the Palestinians stop hating the Jews more than they love their own children and stop letting their sons and daughters go on these suicide bomber missions
It takes two to hate. The Jews are not innocent with all of this. Both sides have to learn to forgive, or the Sharon's and Arafat's of the world will keep this from happening.

[Bogy]

I'm a little behind here, because I've was out of town for a few days, but...
Arafat did have a job before he got into the PLO. He was an engineer. He made millions in construction.
But, be that as it may, don't you guys listen to NPR? If you did you would know that Arafat is essentially out of power. He is no longer a stumbling block to any Israeli/Palestinian negotiations. So now all we need to do is get rid of Sharon.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by Bogy
I'm a little behind here, because I've was out of town for a few days, but...
Arafat did have a job before he got into the PLO. He was an engineer. He made millions in construction.
But, be that as it may, don't you guys listen to NPR? If you did you would know that Arafat is essentially out of power. He is no longer a stumbling block to any Israeli/Palestinian negotiations. So now all we need to do is get rid of Sharon.

Yeah, but you won't get a guy like Peres to replace Sharon, you'll get a guy EVEN MORE right wing than Sharon.
Man, that's saying a lot, being more right wing than Sharon is like being taller than Gheorge Muresan or being faster than light, but Netenyahoo actually IS to the right of Sharon.
Any half way decent Israel running for Prime MInister doesn't have a chance in hell if he doesn't get all the "Israeli-Arab" vote and if the "Israeli-Arabs" don't vote in large numbers.
Barak was DESTROYED in a landslide after all this Israeli-Arab supporters didn't even vote because they felt so betrayed by him because Barak actually built even MORE new settlements in occupied territories than Netenyahoo had and because many Israeli-Arabs had been shot and killed by the Israeli Police in protests.
I think Barak's offer was HORRIBLE and not even close to enough for a fair deal for the Palestinians.
I DON'T blame Barak for the deal he offered though, the distance between what the Palestinian people needed and what the Israeli people needed was just TOO GREAT to bridge at that time.
What I have a HUGE PROBLEM with Barak is that he made THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF HIS LIFE when Barak allowed Sharon to invade the Mosque on top of the Temple Mount.
All the Palestinian leaders talked to Barak and BEGGED him not to allow Sharon to go inside the Mosque.
MANY Israelis also BEGGED Barak not to allow it.
Barak REFUSED and rejected all these people ideas and Sharon entered the Mosque with like 1000 IDF soldiers, worshippers inside the mosque tired to stop Sharon from entering with EVERY FIBER IN THEIR BEING, but they were no match for the IDF or their weapons and maybe a dozen or more worshippers died in their effort to stop Sharon from entering after they were shot by the IDF.
Sharon is an alleged war criminal who people allege is responsible for killing thousands of Palestinians women and children in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and people also allege that Sharon has killed countless other tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in his many many many decade career first allegedly as a member of a Israeli Terrorist groups like the Irgun and the Stern Gangs and then later in the IDF.
The Palestinians look at Sharon the way the Kurds look at Saddam or the Jews look at Hilter.
How would Israelis react if some Nazis tried to get to the Western Wall and touch it?
They'd react the EXACT same way that the Palestinians reacted when Sharon tried to enter the mosque on top of the Temple Mount.
Kurds would react the SAME way if Saddam had tried to enter one of the the Kurdish holy sites.
That was the BIGGEST mistake of Barak's LIFE in my opinion.
People FORGET HOW all this latest round of trouble in the Middle East started, but it started when Sharon enter that mosque on the Temple Mount.
This all happened IN EAST JERUSALEM BTW, which is INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED Palestinian territory which is OCCUPIED by Israel.
If Barak had NOT allowed Sharon to do this then people would really not be able to say anything bad about Barak.
Barak allowing Sharon to do that was seen as the ULTIMATE BETRAYAL by all the Israeli-Arabs who voted for Barak.

[DmitriA]

Originally posted by James_F

It takes two to hate. The Jews are not innocent with all of this. Both sides have to learn to forgive, or the Sharon's and Arafat's of the world will keep this from happening.

It's a question of how much hate there is. Virtually no Israeli hates the Palestinians enough to be willing to blow himself up (or let his children go on a suicide mission) to kill a few of them. You can't say the same about the other side

[James_F]

Oh I'm not defending the cowardly act of terrorism. I just don't believe that the current leadership of Israel is doing anything to constructively stop it. They have had a couple of years to do it this way and all they have done is hurt both economies.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by DmitriA


It's a question of how much hate there is. Virtually no Israeli hates the Palestinians enough to be willing to blow himself up (or let his children go on a suicide mission) to kill a few of them. You can't say the same about the other side

I can't BELIEVE that people actually believe that.
It's NOT HATE that causes the difference in the way the Israelis kill and the way the Palestinians kill, it's the INCREDIBLE UNIMAGINABLE imbalance of military power.
Israel has THE MOST POWERFUL military in the entire middle east.
Israel has 400 nuclear weapons, tanks, F-16s, F-18s, F-15s, Apache Longbow Helicopters, Tanks, APCs, Ballisic Missiles, Submairnes, Cruise Missiles, etc, etc, etc.
The Palestinians are lucky if they have a slingshot.
There are individual Israelis who hate Palestinians as MUCH AS ANYONE HAS EVER HATED ANYONE IN HISTORY, and the same is true for individual Palestianians who hate Israelis as much as anyone's ever hated anyone.
Have you ever heard of Baruk Goldstein?
Have you ever heard of what Sharon allegedly allowed to happen in Sabra and Shatila?
Have you ever heard of how Israeli Terrorists blew up the King David hotel in the 1940s?
If the MILITARY imbalance was REVERSED, then the Palestinians would be doing the same stuff the Israelis are doing and the Israelis would be doing the same stuff that the Palestinians are doing.
You really need to read some history before you that the hate is a one way street.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Jack White
The Palestinians are lucky if they have a slingshot.


What an out and out lie and misrepresentation of the facts.

As you usually in most of your posts you fill it with statements that have little to do with the topic and will try twist any statistic no matter how minor to match your belief. You think that by capitalizing and using over dramatic sentences that you are making your point more valid, WRONG! (Why don't you use the words ALL OF HUMANITY or ALL OF HISTORY or ANYONE IN HISTORY a little more, drama don't mean validity of content). Take a statistics or argumentation class so you can see how invalid your information is the way you represent it.

As usual your are trying to hijack the thread so you can post more and more, because you love to see your words in print. If not you would not write so much with so little actual content.

[Halfsek]

Okay, let's remember a few things:

1) If you actualy believe that Arafat is out of the picture, then I have a few bridges I can sell you real cheap.

2) I guarantee that if suicide bombings and terrorist activity stopped today, you would not see one Israeli incursion into the territories. In fact, you might even see the road toward Palestinian statehood more clearly.

3) Palestinian Arabs want the Jews dead. They've never hidden that fact. They're proud of it. It's taught from childhood age. So how can you expect them to stop killing Jews?

4) Jack White has shown in his posts that he personally knows what every last person on this planet is thinking. With knowledge like that, how can we argue?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Halfsek
4) Jack White has shown in his posts that he personally knows what every last person on this planet is thinking. With knowledge like that, how can we argue?

And with exagerated and misrepresented statistics and over dramatized sentences that contain capitalized "ALL OF HUMANITY", or "IN ALL OF HISTORY" how can any of us argue with the ALL KNOWING JACK WHITE. :bang :hair: :nono2: :ewww: :shrug: :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: (Look Jack White, here is another way to be dramatic with, maybe use these emoticons to dramatize your points for a while and give your other tactics a rest)

[lastmanstanding]

The dilema here is that many Muslims will not be happy with a settlement that does not destroy Isreal. At least that is what they say. A Palestinian State could be made to work, but once complete, I believe it is foolish to believe that the terrorism would actually stop.

[James_F]

OK so what do you propose? Lock all Palestinians in jail? Yes its a tough situation, but at some point we have to make this work. As I have said a strong Palestinian economy working with the Israeli economy would be great, a NAFTA type agreement would help both countries. My father in-law lost his company after the lockdown because he couldn't get his workers out of the westbank into his factory. It was a great situation for all and when I was over there a couple years ago both the Jews and Palestinians were working side by side without any problem. Why? Because they were all making money.

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by James_F
... It was a great situation for all and when I was over there a couple years ago both the Jews and Palestinians were working side by side without any problem. Why? Because they were all making money.

Right! And during that time there were very few, if any, suicide bombers.

But they're biting the hand that feeds them. Like you said, the Palestinians were happy, working away and making money. They weren't bombing and Israel wasn't sending in any troops.

Then Arafat got a bug up his butt and ordered some terrorist attacks.

But they're never going to have economic stability if they have Arafat as a leader or this new Prime Minister who happens to be a Holocost denier.

If an Israeli leader isn't doing good things for the country, the citizens would vote him out. Too bad the Palestinians can't do that.

[James_F]

Which is my point. Its up to the Israelis to take charge here since the Palestinians cannot. That would show true leadership in solving the crisis.

[Halfsek]

How are they going to take charge? What can they do? They're dealing with people who are forcing their children to be suicide bombers.

If Israel could take charge to fix it, I'd be be for it 100%. But they can't do anything that won't put them at greater risk. And the Palestinians haven't done one thing to prove that they won't try to kill Jews if they have the chance.

[Bogy]

I think many of you are giving Arafat way to much credit here. Being the leader of the Palestinians has to be much like herding cats. Lots of cats. Lots of cats with long sharp claws and fangs. Cats with really nasty tempers.

Not every Palestinian is a nasty cat with teeth and claws, but enough of them are to cause trouble to anyone who they feel crosses them. Politicians in this country trying to ride the fence have no idea what Arafat has dealt with. And both sides have their troublemakers. Many Palestinian children may grow up being taught that all Israeli children should die, but all to many Israeli children grow up being taught that the same is true for Palestinian children. Both sides have their fundamentalists who cause trouble every time a peace initiative appears to be getting close, whether its a suicide bomber in Jerusalem, or a West Bank settler killing a couple of Palestinian boys who got to close to the fence. We don't have to place all the blame on the Palestinians/Arafat. There's plenty to go around. Bloody hands all around.

[Halfsek]

No, I have no sympathy at all for Arafat. His fingers are personally responsible for pulling the trigger of guns that have murdered women and children. He's personally blown up busses.

He founded Hamas.

And it's not true that Israeli children are taught that Palestinians must die. Sure, some parents may teach their kids that, but we have those problems here.

I'm talking about schools in the territories showing Barney types of shows talking about being Martyrs and killing Jews. This is money provided by the UN (our tax dollars). It's government sanctioned hate and promotion of murder.

[James_F]

So what do you propose? How do you solve the problem. I see how you feel about the children so what do YOU do to stop this hate?

[Halfsek]

Easy.
The US leans hard on the PA to put in place a real real reformer. Not another anti Jew that is there now.

The do this by holding up any money.

At the same time the US leans on Israel to not add any more settlements. Again, by threatening to hold up money.

If Israel truly believes that a non violent reformer is installed, I think they'll stop adding to the settlements.

[James_F]

That sounds like a plan to start. I'd hope something will get done now that Iraq seems to be almost secure and the UK seems to want to address the conflict....

[Halfsek]

Now the problem is somehow getting people who jump for joy when innocent Jews are killed, burn American flags, root for Saddam not once, but twice, party in the streets on 9/11.... to actually want to have peace with Israel and the west.
Good luck.

[Jack White]

Originally posted by Halfsek


Right! And during that time there were very few, if any, suicide bombers.

But they're biting the hand that feeds them. Like you said, the Palestinians were happy, working away and making money. They weren't bombing and Israel wasn't sending in any troops.

Then Arafat got a bug up his butt and ordered some terrorist attacks.

But they're never going to have economic stability if they have Arafat as a leader or this new Prime Minister who happens to be a Holocost denier.

If an Israeli leader isn't doing good things for the country, the citizens would vote him out. Too bad the Palestinians can't do that.

No, you're wrong, during the time there were almost no suicide bombings years ago, Israel wasn't feeding the Palestinians with that hand, it was PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE by building more and more and more settlements in the occupied territories.
Nobody here seems to comprehend how gigantic and obsticle to peace the settlements really are.
There can NEVER EVER be peace till Israelis start to accept that Judea and Sumaria are something from thousands of years ago and the West Bank and Gaza are HERE TO STAY.
Some Israelis can't even accept that they're occupied territories and call them DISPUTED territories.
I can read between the lines and see that people who call the West Bank and Gaza the disputed territories really wouldn't mind so much if all of the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed out of their ancestral homelands of Gaza and The West Bank forever.

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by Jack White


...
Some Israelis can't even accept that they're occupied territories and call them DISPUTED territories...


Okay, let's try this again... wait a minute, why should I even waste my time?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Halfsek
Okay, let's try this again... wait a minute, why should I even waste my time?

Exactly...Not worth your effort