Will this diplexer work in my situation?

[jnelaine]

Hi,

I'm wondering if this diplexer will do what I need: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401

Here's the deal: I would like to run three lines from the legacy outputs on a SWM-8 to three separate locations in my house. On each of these three lines I would like an OTA signal diplexed in. I will be running each of these lines to an HR10-250. I understand that I will only be able to use one tuner in each HR10, but I'm cool with that (each location will also have an HR2x running on a different line from the SWM).

So, will the diplexer above work for me? I just want to make sure that I won't have any problems with pulling in all three satellites on the HR10s. In the past I have tried to run a single line to my HR10s from the multiswitch that I currently have on my roof, but that didn't work very well. I think it had something to do with transponders, but only certain channels came in.

It's my understanding that since I am replacing my multiswitch with a SWM and will use the legacy outputs, the problem with half of the channels missing when I run a single line to my HR10s goes away. Is this right, and will the above diplexer work for my situation?

Thanks experts!

[jdspencer]

I believe that as long as the line you use for diplexing doesn't have the MPEG4 signals, it should work.

[Cmnore]

Why not just use HF splitters BEFORE the existing multiswitch, and use it in addition to the MSW you already have?

[jnelaine]

Why not just use HF splitters BEFORE the existing multiswitch, and use it in addition to the MSW you already have?

Hmmm, I'm not sure I follow you. I haven't done the upgrade yet, so I was assuming that the SWM-8 would replace my current multi-switch. And I know that I have had a problem with running a single line from my current multi-switch to my HR10s - half of the channels don't come in.

[Grentz]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I follow you. I haven't done the upgrade yet, so I was assuming that the SWM-8 would replace my current multi-switch. And I know that I have had a problem with running a single line from my current multi-switch to my HR10s - half of the channels don't come in.

I would just use the SWM.

You could use the Multiswitch and SWM, but there really is not much advantage IMO and it involves more equipment and more points of failure.



Back on to your first question, that is not the proper diplexer you want. You will want to use this type:
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=785

You will need them on each line going out of the SWM and then each line on the other end to diplex back out the OTA signal. Potentially you could use the OTA input on the SWM to negate using the diplexers on the SWM end, but the SWM unit has a lot of loss on the OTA input.

[Cmnore]

What kind of multiswitch did you have before? If it wasn't KA/KU it would explain the missing channels. You might just need this:http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=WB68

[jnelaine]

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm getting a little more confused. I am definitely replacing my current multiswitch with a SWM to support my new HR2x units, so I'm just looking for the best way to diplex an OTA signal into each of the legacy outputs on the new SWM.

At first I was thinking about using a splitter to split my rooftop antenna signal into three different lines and then using 3 diplexers to combine the OTA signals and legacy outputs into 3 lines, but that's when I figured that I could just use the single diplexer that I referenced in my first post.

Grentz - does the SWM have an OTA input? If so, then does all of this go away? Does it diplex the OTA signal into each of the legacy outputs? I had not heard of this.

[Cmnore]

No. The SWM ONLY diplexes OTA into the SWM outputs. Even then, D* doesn't support this technique because of the insertion loss through the MSW. I used a single diplexer following the legacy output on my SWM and it worked well. If the Perfect Vision SDC5401 you linked to at SS will do the same thing - that would be great, but it looks to me like it is designed to attatch directly to the LNB outputs from the dish. Am I mistaken?

[Cmnore]

Maybe you were right? I just found this:

http://www.prosatellitesupply.com/PDF_Files/4-WAY_MULTI-SWITCH.pdf

[jnelaine]

Thanks, but I'm still confused. Can I use the diplexer in my first post to combine the legacy output from a SWM-8 and feed that into an HR10 without having any problems with losing half of the channels?

[premio]

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm getting a little more confused. I am definitely replacing my current multiswitch with a SWM to support my new HR2x units, so I'm just looking for the best way to diplex an OTA signal into each of the legacy outputs on the new SWM.

At first I was thinking about using a splitter to split my rooftop antenna signal into three different lines and then using 3 diplexers to combine the OTA signals and legacy outputs into 3 lines, but that's when I figured that I could just use the single diplexer that I referenced in my first post.

Grentz - does the SWM have an OTA input? If so, then does all of this go away? Does it diplex the OTA signal into each of the legacy outputs? I had not heard of this.

You can not diplex from the legacy ports via the SWM OTA input because they pass the B-band signal down the wire, which conflicts with OTA frequencies.

You will need to connect 4 lines from the multiswitch inside the LNB to the SWM.

Then use a splitter to split your source OTA into the SWM (so the SWM output lines will have OTA diplexed in) and 1 output each for ever how many legacy ports you will use. If signal power is an issue you may want to connect two cables directly to the antenna as every time you passively split you reduce your signal strength.

Your legacy connection should then be: SWM Legacy Port --> BBC (waterproof it with 3M electircal tape if it's outside)--> sat into the diplexer and OTA into the deplixer --> 1 wire to the receiver. If you have a DVR and need to run 2 wires, you don't need to diplex twice.

[houskamp]

Thanks, but I'm still confused. Can I use the diplexer in my first post to combine the legacy output from a SWM-8 and feed that into an HR10 without having any problems with losing half of the channels?
All you need is one of these http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=PVDP3 at each end of the line.. One at the SWM legacy out and one at your HR10..

[Grentz]

You can not diplex from the legacy ports via the SWM OTA input because they pass the B-band signal down the wire, which conflicts with OTA frequencies.


No, that is incorrect. The Legacy ports on the SWM only pass 101, 110, 119, not the new Ka satellites that require the BBCs and also cause issues with diplexing. You do not have to worry about BBCs if you are diplexing on the legacy ports.

The SWM-8 module does have an OTA input, but the loss is much more than using separate diplexers on the legacy lines from what people have found I believe.

houskamp's post is the one to look at. You need one diplexer at each legacy output from SWM and one diplexer at each receiver/OTA side.

[houskamp]

The SWM-8 module does have an OTA input, but the loss is much more than using separate diplexers on the legacy lines from what people have found I believe.


SWM8 OTA input doesn't come "out" the legacy ports at all (only the SWM 1/2).. you will have to diplex them separately..

[Grentz]

SWM8 OTA input doesn't come "out" the legacy ports at all (only the SWM 1/2).. you will have to diplex them separately..

Good to know, missed that little fineprint :lol:

So in any event you will have to use separate diplexers ;)

But you do NOT have to worry about BBCs as the legacy ports do not deal with the Ka signals (99/103) and thus do not carry the new HD signals. (fine for legacy boxes as they cannot see them anyways)

[jnelaine]

Thanks for everyone's help. So, it sounds like the diplexer that I mentioned in my first post won't work. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like I'll need to do this:

OTA antenna --> 4-way splitter
Then take the outputs from the 4-way splitter and also use 3 separate diplexers to combine the 3 legacy outputs from the SWM into 3 lines to my HR10s.

I was hoping to accomplish this with a single diplexer (e.g. 3 legacy outputs plus one OTA signal into a diplexer), but it sounds like this won't work.

[jwd45244]

Thanks for everyone's help. So, it sounds like the diplexer that I mentioned in my first post won't work. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like I'll need to do this:

OTA antenna --> 4-way splitter
Then take the outputs from the 4-way splitter and also use 3 separate diplexers to combine the 3 legacy outputs from the SWM into 3 lines to my HR10s.

I was hoping to accomplish this with a single diplexer (e.g. 3 legacy outputs plus one OTA signal into a diplexer), but it sounds like this won't work.

Look at my signature. these diplexers work perfectly.

[Cmnore]

I believe I just found what you're looking for.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=D54&xzoom=Large#xview

[jnelaine]

I believe I just found what you're looking for.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=D54&xzoom=Large#xview

Thanks, I agree that the diplexer that you mentioned may work, but I'm still wondering why the diplexer that I mentioned (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) won't work.

[jwd45244]

Thanks, I agree that the diplexer that you mentioned may work, but I'm still wondering why the diplexer that I mentioned (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) won't work.

It is not for the DirecTV Slimline or Sidecar dish. It is for the older Phase 3 3-LNB dish.

[Cmnore]

Thanks, I agree that the diplexer that you mentioned may work, but I'm still wondering why the diplexer that I mentioned (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) won't work.

Because it only costs half as much! :lol:

[jwd45244]

Because it only costs half as much! :lol:

The diplexers I use are even less expensive than that.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4002IFD
and
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4001IFD

[Cmnore]

The diplexers I use are even less expensive than that.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4002IFD
and
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4001IFD

Uhhh...only if he needed two of them. He'll need six(see O.P.).

The other factor is size and how it might affect the installation. With the Sonora - it's just a single piece of hardware(near the SWM anyway), and three standard diplexers to demux the signals. I like these. They're small.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SPDX100

[jwd45244]

Uhhh...only if he needed two of them. He'll need six(see O.P.).

The other factor is size and how it might affect the installation. With the Sonora - it's just a single piece of hardware(near the SWM anyway), and three standard diplexers to demux the signals. I like these. They're small.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SPDX100

Uhh, back at you.

I have one CM4002IFD to combine the SAT and OTA signals. and at each reciever I have one CM4001IFD to split them. So in my set up I have 1 4002IFD and 4 4001IFDs

In his case he would need 3 4002s and 3 4001s

And this one: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=D54&xzoom=Large#xview introduces significantly more signal loss than the Channel Masters.

[jnelaine]

Thanks for your help guys, but it seems that I would need 3 of the CM4002IFD units since I want to send the sat+OTA signal down three different lines to three different locations in my house. I would also need to split the OTA signal coming out of the antenna into at least 3 lines in order to feed them into the 3 CM4002IFD units.

So, that's why I was looking for a single unit instead. The Sonora (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=D54&xzoom=Large#xview) unit that Cmnore mentioned seems like it would do the trick, but the unit I mentioned (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) also seems like it would work (and costs 1/3rd the price). Is there any reason why the unit I mentioned won't work? Jwd45244 mentioned that it was only for older Phase 3 3-LNB dishs, but wouldn't the output from the legacy port on a SWM-8 be like that?

[Cmnore]

I would also need to split the OTA signal coming out of the antenna into at least 3 lines in order to feed them into the 3 CM4002IFD units.

Hmm. My math skills might not be my strongest suit, but I digress. That seems to me like you'd need a three way splitter(for the incoming OTA to the three inserting diplexers), and three more diplexers for where the signal will need to be re-extracted at the three receivers. What's three plus three?:nono2:

Seriously though, the Channel Masters add up to nearly $50. It may be the BEST solution 'technically', but there are always other factors involved in choosing hardware including size and often more importantly - the cost.

[YellowSnow]

Couldn't you use these when using a SWM-8???

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=STD-9501

Says they are approved for the SWM-8 and all you would need to do is diplex the wire coming from your splitter (SWS-4 or something) into your receiver and you'd be good.


No?

[houskamp]

Couldn't you use these when using a SWM-8???

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=STD-9501

Says they are approved for the SWM-8 and all you would need to do is diplex the wire coming from your splitter (SWS-4 or something) into your receiver and you'd be good.


No?
Could if he wasn't still running a HR10 (old nonSWM tivo)

[Deputy Fife]

Could if he wasn't still running a HR10 (old nonSWM tivo)

But I thought the OP also stated he has a HR2x at the same locations as the HR10 units. If this is the case, I would try using the OTA diplexing built into the SWM8 before attempting to diplex the legacy feeds.

[jnelaine]

Hmm. My math skills might not be my strongest suit, but I digress. That seems to me like you'd need a three way splitter(for the incoming OTA to the three inserting diplexers), and three more diplexers for where the signal will need to be re-extracted at the three receivers. What's three plus three?:nono2:

Seriously though, the Channel Masters add up to nearly $50. It may be the BEST solution 'technically', but there are always other factors involved in choosing hardware including size and often more importantly - the cost.

I already have diplexers to split the signals out just before my current HR10s, so I wasn't including those in the count. I'm only talking about the new stuff that I will need on my roof. And I don't see why it makes sense to first split out my OTA signal on the roof to at least 3 lines and then use 3 seperate diplexers to combine those lines with the legacy outputs when I could just use a single diplexer like in my original post.

I still haven't heard a definitive reason why the diplexer in my original post won't work. Jwd45244 mentioned that it was only for older Phase 3 3-LNB dishs, but wouldn't the output from the legacy port on a SWM-8 be like that?

I didn't realize this would be such a tough question. All I want to do is diplex OTA signals into the 3 legacy outputs from a SWM-8 and do it with as little hardware as possible. Does the SWM-8 have this capability? I didn't think it did, so that's why I was looking at a separate diplexer.

[eakes]

The device in question is actually a 5x4 multiswitch designed to work with the Phase III dish (note that it asks for four sat inputs). The only possible way it would work is to connect two of the legacy ports from the SWM8 to inputs 1 and 2. The OTA signal would be split out to each of the four output ports. Programming on the 101 satellite would be the only channels that could be received in this configuration. Note there is no guarantee that this would actually work as you are cascading this switch with the SWM8, however you won't 'break' anything if you try.

Individual diplexers on each of the legacy ports has been shown to work. It's your choice if you want to try using the 'diplexer' in question which may or may not work vs individual diplexers which are known to work.

[Cmnore]

I agree. Unless you can find someone who has tested this configuration already, you'll probably have to pull the trigger and give it a try and see if it works.

[jnelaine]

The device in question is actually a 5x4 multiswitch designed to work with the Phase III dish (note that it asks for four sat inputs). The only possible way it would work is to connect two of the legacy ports from the SWM8 to inputs 1 and 2. The OTA signal would be split out to each of the four output ports. Programming on the 101 satellite would be the only channels that could be received in this configuration. Note there is no guarantee that this would actually work as you are cascading this switch with the SWM8, however you won't 'break' anything if you try.

Individual diplexers on each of the legacy ports has been shown to work. It's your choice if you want to try using the 'diplexer' in question which may or may not work vs individual diplexers which are known to work.

Thanks - this is what I was looking for. Now that I know that the SDC5401 won't work for me, I guess I'll go with the separate diplexers. I plan on using this 4-way passive port splitter (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=P7004AP) to split the OTA signal on the roof before feeding the lines into the diplexers. Anyone see a problem with that?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[jnelaine]

One more question - I know it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I somehow missed it. I didn't realize that the SWM-8 can already diplex in an OTA signal into the regular outputs (but not the legacy outputs). However, after doing a little research, it seems that people generally recommend against this because you lose a lot of OTA signal strength this way. Is my plan for diplexing in the OTA signals downstream from the SWM the best solution?

[Cmnore]

Yes. Especially if you're using the legacy outputs.

[Kansas Zephyr]

One more question - I know it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I somehow missed it. I didn't realize that the SWM-8 can already diplex in an OTA signal into the regular outputs (but not the legacy outputs). However, after doing a little research, it seems that people generally recommend against this because you lose a lot of OTA signal strength this way. Is my plan for diplexing in the OTA signals downstream from the SWM the best solution?
For your legacy ports, it's the only option.

But, for simplicity, I'd try using the OTA port first. If you don't get satisfactory OTA signal levels then diplex externally.

For me the OTA port works fine. I have solid OTA reception on all 4 HR2Xs, with the exception of the PBS which is digital on the side of their stick, and a low power level. I can't get that with the antenna fed directly into the TV, bypassing the SWM-8, either

[Cmnore]

I would assume that if you planned on using the SWM OTA port, you could add a preamp to the antenna itself to boost the signal into the SWM. It might help keep the insertion loss to a reasonable level.

[evan_s]

The device in question is actually a 5x4 multiswitch designed to work with the Phase III dish (note that it asks for four sat inputs). The only possible way it would work is to connect two of the legacy ports from the SWM8 to inputs 1 and 2. The OTA signal would be split out to each of the four output ports. Programming on the 101 satellite would be the only channels that could be received in this configuration. Note there is no guarantee that this would actually work as you are cascading this switch with the SWM8, however you won't 'break' anything if you try.

As far as I can tell the originally linked device is just a Diplexer not a switch. It takes an OTA and diplexes it into 4 lines at once but it is not a multiswitch. I would expect the inputs to be labeled on a multiswitch with 13/18v tone/no tone and they aren't. I see no reason why the originally linked device wouldn't work with 3 of the legacy ports on a SWM. Just make sure you use the same 3 outputs as inputs you connected up.

[jnelaine]

As far as I can tell the originally linked device is just a Diplexer not a switch. It takes an OTA and diplexes it into 4 lines at once but it is not a multiswitch. I would expect the inputs to be labeled on a multiswitch with 13/18v tone/no tone and they aren't. I see no reason why the originally linked device wouldn't work with 3 of the legacy ports on a SWM. Just make sure you use the same 3 outputs as inputs you connected up.

Interesting, what does everyone else think? If it will work, I'd rather have this one unit on my roof instead of having an OTA splitter and then 3 diplexers. I did a Google search on SDC5401 and found a number of other hits. They all describe it as a "combiner" and not a multi-switch. Here's one of those links (http://www.prosatellitesupply.com/diplexer_quad.htm)

[houskamp]

Interesting, what does everyone else think? If it will work, I'd rather have this one unit on my roof instead of having an OTA splitter and then 3 diplexers. I did a Google search on SDC5401 and found a number of other hits. They all describe it as a "combiner" and not a multi-switch. Here's one of those links (http://www.prosatellitesupply.com/diplexer_quad.htm)
Not much info on it.. kinda looks like it is basicaly a 4 way splitter for ota and 4 diplexers in one box.. may work on the legacy ports tho.. You might try calling one of the companies that sell them, or order one from somewhere with a good return policy and be a guineapig :)

[jnelaine]

As far as I can tell the originally linked device is just a Diplexer not a switch. It takes an OTA and diplexes it into 4 lines at once but it is not a multiswitch. I would expect the inputs to be labeled on a multiswitch with 13/18v tone/no tone and they aren't. I see no reason why the originally linked device wouldn't work with 3 of the legacy ports on a SWM. Just make sure you use the same 3 outputs as inputs you connected up.

Update: I went ahead and ordered the SDC5401 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) and am going to give it a try with the legacy outputs on the SWM-8. As evas_s pointed out, since it appears to just be a quad-diplexer and not a multiswitch, I'm thinking it should work. I will post back to let everyone know if it works.

[AntAltMike]

FYI

The SWM system sends an upstream control signal with a center frequency of 2.3 MHz. In order for the SWM to be diplexed into any RF broadcast frequency spectrum, the diplexer must pass the SWM control signal to the satellite port.

Pre-SWM diplexers were engineered to pass DC and 22 KHz along with 950 and above MHz signals to the satellite port. Off-air diplexers would typically be engineered to pass from about 40 to 806 MHz to the "antenna" port. Unfortunately, cable companies almost all now use frequencies up to 860 MHz, so the consumer satellite product companies "remedied" that problem by changing the labels to read 860 MHz rather than 806 MHz, but they nearly all roll off half a dozen or more dB between 806 and 860 MHz. I once compared a handful of 806 MHz diplexers with a couple of 860 MHz diplexers using a spectrum analyzer and a white noise generator and saw no difference in their roll-off characteristics.

The next problem encountered was that cable companies also use return signals that are well below 40 MHz. In Washington, DC for example, the cable boxes have an upstream frequency of 10.5 MHz, but the 40 MHz diplexers impeded them, so the construction of the diplexers got "tweaked" a little and companies began labeling them 5-860 MHz. Realistically, they start rolling off probably around 15 to 20 MHz, but pass enough return signal at 10 MHz to get by.

The only diplexer I am aware of that has been engineered to pass 2.3 MHz to the satellite port, but also pass 10 MHz to the TV port relatively unimpeded, is the NAS model STD-9501. If you are just trying to diplex off-air with SWM and if you don't have any signal measurement gear, you probably would do better using an old 40-806 or 860 MHz diplexer than a 5 - 806 or 860 diplexer.

I don't know if the "Legacy" outputs of the SWM also carry B-Band, 250 to 750 MHz signals, but if they do, then those signals might tend to muck up the off-air signals of the weaker TV stations. I would expect diplexers to have out-of-band rejection in the neighborhood of about 40dB, though I haven't actually tested them for that, but off-air signals vary tremendously in signal strength and B-band satellite signals, if they ar present in the SWM Legacy outputs, might still be strong enough to degrade weak off-air signals even if the B-band signals have been attenuated by 40 dB. You could improve the diplexing performance slightly if necessary by using a second diplexer between the Legacy port and the antenna insertion diplexer as a second "low-band rejection" filter.

[texasbrit]

FYI



I don't know if the "Legacy" outputs of the SWM also carry B-Band, 250 to 750 MHz signals, but if they do, then those signals might tend to muck up the off-air signals of the weaker TV stations. I would expect diplexers to have out-of-band rejection in the neighborhood of about 40dB, though I haven't actually tested them for that, but off-air signals vary tremendously in signal strength and B-band satellite signals, if they ar present in the SWM Legacy outputs, might still be strong enough to degrade weak off-air signals even if the B-band signals have been attenuated by 40 dB. You could improve the diplexing performance slightly if necessary by using a second diplexer between the Legacy port and the antenna insertion diplexer as a second "low-band rejection" filter.

The legacy ports don't carry the b-band signals from DirecTV10/11 so diplexing OTA onto the cable after output from a legacy port works fine, at least for me.

[jnelaine]

Ok, since the legacy ports don't carry the b-band signal, I don't have to worry about that issue. Is the 2.3MHz control signal going to be a problem with the SDC5401 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SDC5401) or is this not an issue since I am using an HR10 on the legacy port.

[evan_s]

The 2.3 mhz control signal isn't used on the legacy ports. It's only used on the SWM ports. The Legacy ports continue to use the standard voltage/tone signaling.

AntAltMike's post was interesting but unfortunately not relevant to diplexing OTA on the legacy ports.

[jnelaine]

I called SolidSignal today to see if they knew if this quad diplexer would work with the legacy outputs. Basically they said they didn't know. I guess I'll find out this Saturday!

[Cmnore]

I'm just as curious as you are.