Caution: D* Prohibits Sale of Owned Receivers on eBay

[rudeney]

I’ve mentioned this a few times, but I now have some proof that D* routinely cancels auctions on eBay for their new equipment. I was watching an auction (see below) and it’s now gone. Another forum member (I’ll let him identify himself if he so chooses) PM’ed me as he was also watching this auction.

Ironically, they only seem to cancel those where sellers claim that the unit is “owned”. Units that do not make this claim seem to be left alone. Of course there are dozens of units for sale by authorized dealers, usually noted as such or they sell sealed units with sealed access cards.

Anyhow, I’ve started keeping track of these and am trying to see if there is a pattern. Form what I can tell, D* has no legal right to prevent the sale of an owned receiver. Technically, they have no legal right prevent the sale of an access card, either, but the terms of service prohibit it. nothing in their terms of service prohibits the sale of the receivers.

So, for anyone thinking about selling a D* receiver on ebay, think again!

[Grentz]

Might just be that they do not want people getting receivers that the seller is claiming as owned but in reality is leased.

[David MacLeod]

item was due to expire this morning, you sure it was pulled?

[Shades228]

Did you ask the seller why it was canceled? Nothing in your picture stated it was canceled by request of D*.

There could be tons of reasons this auction was canceled.

Someone sending him an email with a buyout price he couldn't pass.

Someone getting the RID from him and finding out it was leased then notifying Ebay of a fraudulent auction.

Purchased it from someone at a garage sale and they contacted him back to let him know it was leased and they had to return it.

His broke and he decided to use it.

Could keep going but overall I would hope that D* does not pay someone to scan ebay all day to look at auctions. I couldn't see that being cost effective in any manner even if it was so that they could keep Cust sat scores higher by not making someone mad who got scammed.

[Shades228]

Technically, they have no legal right prevent the sale of an access card, either, but the terms of service prohibit it. nothing in their terms of service prohibits the sale of the receivers.


Taken from the DirecTV service agreement:

(e) Access Card. You have received a conditional access card (referred to as the "Access Card") and a License Agreement governing your use of the Access Card while you are receiving our Service. Access Cards are nontransferable and are the exclusive property of DIRECTV. If you tell us that the original Access Card was lost, damaged, defective or stolen, we will replace it, as long as there is no evidence of unauthorized tampering with or modification of the Access Card and your account is in good standing. A replacement fee may apply (described in Section 2). Tampering with or other unauthorized modification of the Access Card is strictly prohibited and may result in criminal or civil action. Tampering with or inserting any device into your receiver other than an authorized unmodified Access Card is prohibited. DIRECTV reserves the right to cancel or replace the Access Card. Upon Request, the card must be returned to DIRECTV. If you do not return the Access Card to DIRECTV when you cancel your Service, you may be charged a fee as described in Section 2. Requesting Access Cards on behalf of other persons or for purposes other than lawful viewing of DIRECTV Service is prohibited.

So they can legally stop you from selling an access card.

[or270]

Directv DOES pay a company to scan eBay and cancel auctions, I have ran into them several times selling owned equipment, they never answer email if you ask them why a item was canceled. Last go around with them was over a HR20-700 that I owned, I stated that no access card was included and that was the wording that they did not like.

[Doug Brott]

So they can legally stop you from selling an access card.

This is likely what is going on ..

[Jon J]

I own an HR20 that was a PP replacement for an owned HR10. I'm not contemplating selling it but were I to want to I can't see how DirecTV could prevent it if I don't include the access card, right? ;)

[or270]

Directv eBay vero page

http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=directv_vero

[Shades228]

I own an HR20 that was a PP replacement for an owned HR10. I'm not contemplating selling it but were I to want to I can't see how DirecTV could prevent it if I don't include the access card, right? ;)

Well the first thing that I would ask would be is the receiver working? If it was replaced by PP that should indicate there was a problem with the receiver.

I think that if you put an auction up and didn't try to oversell what it was you would be ok but I'm not an E-bayer. I'd probably just put DirecTV HD Tivo Hr10-250. I wouldn't mention owned/leased status. I wouldn't mention anything about access cards. I'd just list what it was.

[ansky]

Craigslist is better anyway. I sold a receiver several years ago. A guy called me and picked up the receiver within about 30 minutes of posting my ad.

[JLucPicard]

Well the first thing that I would ask would be is the receiver working? If it was replaced by PP that should indicate there was a problem with the receiver.
I have gotten a couple of HR20-700s as replacements under the Protection Plan for HR10-250s that I owned that were no longer working. Those HR20-700s are now on my account as owned units. I'm guessing that what Jon J had in mind with his post.

[Shades228]

I have gotten a couple of HR20-700s as replacements under the Protection Plan for HR10-250s that I owned that were no longer working. Those HR20-700s are now on my account as owned units. I'm guessing that what Jon J had in mind with his post.

Yes I mis-read what he posted and though he meant he was selling the hr10 that was replaced.

[iceturkee]

Might just be that they do not want people getting receivers that the seller is claiming as owned but in reality is leased.

took the words right out of my mouth. i doubt directv (and i've bought 3 older units from ebay without incident) would make a stink if you legitmately owned the unit and wanted to sell. i'd bet a significant sum of money many of those units being sold that are claimed to be owned are owned by directv. and i certainly hope they would stop the sale!!

[iceturkee]

Craigslist is better anyway. I sold a receiver several years ago. A guy called me and picked up the receiver within about 30 minutes of posting my ad.

i've caught a few people trying to sell leased directv units on craigslist too.

[David Ortiz]

I just sold an R15 receiver that I got before the whole lease thing started. I stated that it was owned, and no access card was included. After the auction ended, and the transaction completed, I was notified that the auction was canceled.

I was baffled, and I've received no reponse to the email I sent to ask why the auction was canceled.

[Shades228]

I just sold an R15 receiver that I got before the whole lease thing started. I stated that it was owned, and no access card was included. After the auction ended, and the transaction completed, I was notified that the auction was canceled.

I was baffled, and I've received no reponse to the email I sent to ask why the auction was canceled.

My guess would be that the company they use doesn't manually search but does text mining. I would try again without saying anything about an access card. Chances are there are keywords that will flag the system and an automated response goes to the seller and ebay. I wouldn't want to know the cost of having live people sit around and search all day plus respond to emails.

[harsh]

Technically, they have no legal right prevent the sale of an access card, either, but the terms of service prohibit it.You can't sell the access card because you don't own the access card. While one may be included with a new machine, it does not become the property of the buyer of the receiver.Access Cards are nontransferable and are the exclusive property of DIRECTV.This is akin to bundled software that comes with a device. You are granted a license to use the software, but you aren't allowed to resell nor transfer your license to anyone else.

[harsh]

i've caught a few people trying to sell leased directv units on craigslist too.I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with this unless:

1. They offer the non-transferable access card with the receiver
2. They fraudulently state that the receiver is owned

[rudeney]

Might just be that they do not want people getting receivers that the seller is claiming as owned but in reality is leased.

Actually, plenty of auctions run full-term to sale and they are not identified as owned; they very well could be leased. In fact, one I saw close is a person claiming to have “bought” the HR21 for $199 at BestBuy. That is an obvious lease, yet the auction did not get cancelled. My guess is that D* does not care about these. They aren’t trying to protect buyers from getting stuck with useless leased receivers; they are trying to protect their own revenue stream created by the leasing model by making it completely useless to ever own a receiver and also make it nearly impossible to add a receiver without restarting a commitment.

item was due to expire this morning, you sure it was pulled?

I am certain. There is absolutely no record of the auction. It’s like it never existed. And as I said, another member on this forum mentioned it to me in a PM.

Did you ask the seller why it was canceled? Nothing in your picture stated it was canceled by request of D*.

There could be tons of reasons this auction was canceled.

Someone sending him an email with a buyout price he couldn't pass.

Someone getting the RID from him and finding out it was leased then notifying Ebay of a fraudulent auction.

Purchased it from someone at a garage sale and they contacted him back to let him know it was leased and they had to return it.

His broke and he decided to use it.

Could keep going but overall I would hope that D* does not pay someone to scan ebay all day to look at auctions. I couldn't see that being cost effective in any manner even if it was so that they could keep Cust sat scores higher by not making someone mad who got scammed.

It was not canceled by the seller. If it had been, there would be a record of the auction with the reason. The auction totally “vaporized” which is what happens when the VeRO cancels it. D* doesn’t actually pay people to scan the auctions, VeRO is a “bot” that does it for them based on their criteria.

Taken from the DirecTV service agreement:



So they can legally stop you from selling an access card.

Intellectual property rights are a sticky subject. IANAL, but I have consulted one who believes they have no legal leg to stand on here. The reasoning has to do with the fact that the card is married to the hardware. Again, IANAL, this is just what I have been told. It would need to go to court to be proved.

This is likely what is going on ..

Meaning the access card being included…No, there have been several auctions that very specifically stated it was not included, yet they were cancelled. Mine was one of them.

I own an HR20 that was a PP replacement for an owned HR10. I'm not contemplating selling it but were I to want to I can't see how DirecTV could prevent it if I don't include the access card, right? ;)

They prevent you from selling it on eBay because eBay offers them the VeRO program. Places like Craigslist and other outlets have no such cooperation with D*, so you could sell it there, at a yard sale, or two a friend (and this is in fact what was suggested to me by D*’s office of the president when I complained).

Directv eBay vero page

http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=directv_vero

That’s a very old, outdated page. Notice how it talks about “P4” cards. They haven’t been used for years. It does also mention “devices”.

My guess would be that the company they use doesn't manually search but does text mining. I would try again without saying anything about an access card. Chances are there are keywords that will flag the system and an automated response goes to the seller and ebay. I wouldn't want to know the cost of having live people sit around and search all day plus respond to emails.

Actually, I believe they look for “owned” as well. Like I said, I think the issue is not to protect buyers from ended up with unusable leased equipment, but to protect D*’s very profitable leasing model.

[jimmyv2000]

Craigslist is better anyway. I sold a receiver several years ago. A guy called me and picked up the receiver within about 30 minutes of posting my ad.

I did that last summer with my old hughes receivers:D

[ansky]

I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with this unless:

1. They offer the non-transferable access card with the receiver
2. They fraudulently state that the receiver is owned

Well this was before the leasing program even started, so the R15 I sold was legitimately owned. I left the access card in the unit for no other reason than I didn't know what else to do with it. What is wrong with giving the access card away? The buyer didn't even ask for it.

[Jimmy 440]

I've sold 3 or 4 of my old receivers STBs on Ebay in the past few years.This must be new ?

[CJTE]

Without reading the whole thread, having made a guide to buying receivers on ebay/etc (shameless promotion) what I can tell you is:

DirecTV does not officially prohibit sales of any equipment on any seller services website. DirecTV Set Top Boxes that are marked as owned in DirecTVs Customer Management System are able to be transferred from one account to another.

Technically, an owned Set Top Box = an owned Access Card, HOWEVER, DirecTV Prohibits the transferring of access cards from one account to another in almost all general cases. (Im not saying it can not be done, im saying DirecTV has made it clear that it shouldnt be done and they are taking more and more measures to keep it from happening).

For the most part, when it comes to selling a receiver, DirecTV claims that the Access Card is their property, leased/owned, and therefore if you attempt to sell an access card and they're made aware of it they will strike you down if possible/feasible.

[spartanstew]

I've sold 5 or 6 owned D* DVR's on Ebay over the last 5 years (including 3 in the last 13 months) without a problem.

[rudeney]

I've sold 3 or 4 of my old receivers STBs on Ebay in the past few years.This must be new ?

From what I have observed and experienced, it only affects the new D*-branded receivers (R1x, H2x, HR2x, etc.) that are usually leased.

Without reading the whole thread, having made a guide to buying receivers on ebay/etc (shameless promotion) what I can tell you is:

DirecTV does not officially prohibit sales of any equipment on any seller services website. DirecTV Set Top Boxes that are marked as owned in DirecTVs Customer Management System are able to be transferred from one account to another.

Technically, an owned Set Top Box = an owned Access Card, HOWEVER, DirecTV Prohibits the transferring of access cards from one account to another in almost all general cases. (Im not saying it can not be done, im saying DirecTV has made it clear that it shouldnt be done and they are taking more and more measures to keep it from happening).

For the most part, when it comes to selling a receiver, DirecTV claims that the Access Card is their property, leased/owned, and therefore if you attempt to sell an access card and they're made aware of it they will strike you down if possible/feasible.

Like I posted earlier, go out to eBay and search for D* receivers for sale such as HR2x’s. Sort through them and weed out the ones for sale by authorized dealers (usually noted as such or have sealed access cards includes). Put these remaining “private seller” items in your watch list *AND* make a manual list of them. Go back a week later and compare your manual list to your watched items and see which ones have “disappeared off the face of eBay”. You might be quite surprised to find what’s happening.

[Shades228]

Well if you're having a problem you can submit a complaint to Ebay about it. I don't think they will respond if you're not the seller though unless you bid on a couple. Ebay customer service would be the best place to start probably.

[rudeney]

Well if you're having a problem you can submit a complaint to Ebay about it. I don't think they will respond if you're not the seller though unless you bid on a couple. Ebay customer service would be the best place to start probably.

Ebay customer service is a joke. I even have a supposedly special phone number to call. I might as well have been talking to Pizza Hut delivery. The person basically told me that their hands are tied and that I must communicate to D*’s VeRO office. Basically, major companies like D* have threatened eBay with financial penalties. They can do this by either threaten eBay with lawsuits for enabling fraudulent transactions or they can threaten to disallow their authorized retailers from selling on eBay. Either way, eBay then gladly allows D* free reign to cancel any auction they want and eBay is of no help to the seller and D* is purposely vague and hard-nosed in their responses.

[Dingus2Much]

Ebay customer service is a joke. I even have a supposedly special phone number to call. I might as well have been talking to Pizza Hut delivery. The person basically told me that their hands are tied and that I must communicate to D*’s VeRO office. Basically, major companies like D* have threatened eBay with financial penalties. They can do this by either threaten eBay with lawsuits for enabling fraudulent transactions or they can threaten to disallow their authorized retailers from selling on eBay. Either way, eBay then gladly allows D* free reign to cancel any auction they want and eBay is of no help to the seller and D* is purposely vague and hard-nosed in their responses.

So true. This just happened to me two nights ago. Got an email that DirecTV asked that it be pulled and Ebay did. Have sent 3 emails to DirecTV Vero and Ebay, no word at all. Did the Ebay "live chat" and they couldn't help and wouldn't give a phone number.

I received a new receiver from DirecTV for extending my contract. I specifically asked if this, older, unit was owned or leased (I knew owned as I got it before leasing) and they said "owned". I asked if I could sell and they said yes.

I did mention that I "owned" in the ad and also mentioned "no access card". Maybe those are the killers. Think I should re-list without those?

[ansky]

Bottom line is I bet D* doesn't want people owning receivers anymore. I'm sure they make a lot more money by requiring customers to lease the equipment.

[iceturkee]

I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with this unless:

1. They offer the non-transferable access card with the receiver
2. They fraudulently state that the receiver is owned


try number 2!

[rudeney]

[quote]I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with this unless:

1. They offer the non-transferable access card with the receiver
2. They fraudulently state that the receiver is owned[/quote

try number 2!

The only issue is that D* would have no way to know if the seller was making a fraudulent claim or not unless the RID was posted (I don’t recall if it was or not in the cited auction). In my case, when I tried to sell an R15, I did post the RID and it was owned (yeah, I know, you’ll just have to take my word for that). D* could have verified that, but my guess is that they don’t.

Again, my assertion is not that D* is trying to protect consumers from buying unusable leased equipment or even trying to prevent people from fraudulently selling leased equipment. My assertion is that they are attempting to kill the secondary market by claiming that only authorized dealers can sell their equipment. Can you imagine if Ford Motor Company started doing this? Making you “return” your used car to a dealership and only they could sell them?

[Richierich]

I bought my HR20-700 on Ebay from a dealer and he owned it and now I own it and I told Directv about that when I had it activated and they noted that it was OWNED by me.

[David MacLeod]

I sold an r-10 in march, D* ok'ed it and OP was able to activate it ok. know that was 7 months ago and things change.

[Shades228]

[QUOTE=iceturkee;1839332]

The only issue is that D* would have no way to know if the seller was making a fraudulent claim or not unless the RID was posted (I don’t recall if it was or not in the cited auction). In my case, when I tried to sell an R15, I did post the RID and it was owned (yeah, I know, you’ll just have to take my word for that). D* could have verified that, but my guess is that they don’t.

Again, my assertion is not that D* is trying to protect consumers from buying unusable leased equipment or even trying to prevent people from fraudulently selling leased equipment. My assertion is that they are attempting to kill the secondary market by claiming that only authorized dealers can sell their equipment. Can you imagine if Ford Motor Company started doing this? Making you “return” your used car to a dealership and only they could sell them?

I think that's a bit of a stretch. They make $4.99 a mo whether owned or leased and they subsidise the cost of the equipment for the leased price hence the need for the commitment.

I think the biggest thing is that if someone sells a receiver from an account that came from a fraudulent, or collections account they will not activate. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. If someone sells a leased receiver stating it's owned D* will not activate it. If someone sells a receiver that was stolen or deactivated by D* that was leased but cleared due to special circumstance, see natural disaster, they will not activate it. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. In the long run it's just easier for them to crack down on the biggest place that fraud occurs and that is ebay.

If they didn't want to activate these receivers they would just make a policy saying that you cannot in any way transfer receivers from one account to the other unless it's the same account holder on both accounts or in cases of divorce. This would resolve the issue you're speaking of.

[coleca]

[QUOTE=rudeney;1839468]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. They make $4.99 a mo whether owned or leased and they subsidise the cost of the equipment for the leased price hence the need for the commitment.

I think the biggest thing is that if someone sells a receiver from an account that came from a fraudulent, or collections account they will not activate. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. If someone sells a leased receiver stating it's owned D* will not activate it. If someone sells a receiver that was stolen or deactivated by D* that was leased but cleared due to special circumstance, see natural disaster, they will not activate it. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. In the long run it's just easier for them to crack down on the biggest place that fraud occurs and that is ebay.

If they didn't want to activate these receivers they would just make a policy saying that you cannot in any way transfer receivers from one account to the other unless it's the same account holder on both accounts or in cases of divorce. This would resolve the issue you're speaking of.

Well, I just had an auction cancelled by DirecTv. It was for a HD21 that has never been turned on, with an access card that is still in the shrink wrap. I did state that in the auction, as well as stating it is owned not leased, which I guess gets me 2 points off.

As far as the unit goes, it IS owned and not leased and DirecTv has no rights regarding the access card. I'm not a DirecTv customer and never have been. My neighbor won the unit in a charity auction (thinking it would work with cable TV and obviously he was wrong), so there is nothing attached to the unit what so ever. He nor I signed any agreement with DirecTv.

This is completely ridiculous how these companies can get away with this censorship. Any ideas what I should do?

If you're curious check out item # 220293862112 on Ebay, if it's still available in the listings.

Thanks,
Cole

[Shades228]

[QUOTE=Shades228;1839630]

Well, I just had an auction cancelled by DirecTv. It was for a HD21 that has never been turned on, with an access card that is still in the shrink wrap. I did state that in the auction, as well as stating it is owned not leased, which I guess gets me 2 points off.

As far as the unit goes, it IS owned and not leased and DirecTv has no rights regarding the access card. I'm not a DirecTv customer and never have been. My neighbor won the unit in a charity auction (thinking it would work with cable TV and obviously he was wrong), so there is nothing attached to the unit what so ever. He nor I signed any agreement with DirecTv.

This is completely ridiculous how these companies can get away with this censorship. Any ideas what I should do?

If you're curious check out item # 220293862112 on Ebay, if it's still available in the listings.

Thanks,
Cole

Well if it was done by a charity and through D* charity program he should have activated it. It's part of the charity program that the equipment/programming cannot be given to someone other then the charity winner. Especially since those charity contributions come with 12 mo of free programming. Now if it was someone who got it at a retail store and put it in the charity event it would have been a leased receiver if it was after 3/6/06.

Sell it through another channel rather then ebay.

[Mark Holtz]

[QUOTE=coleca;1839837]Well if it was done by a charity and through D* charity program....DirecTV has a charity program??? I know of a non-profit that could benefit.

:backtotop

Sigh.... for a long time, DirecTV was known to be a hackers paradise prior to them tightening down on the security and sale of receivers. (Anyone remember GAME OVER?) There were reported cases where the signal thieves would purchase several receivers, then the receivers would be found in a nearby dumpster and harvested of all their access cards. (This was around 2001-2002, btw).

So, what happens to all of these "leased receivers"? Do they go back and then labeled as remanufactued? Are they recycled?

[rudeney]

[QUOTE=rudeney;1839468]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. They make $4.99 a mo whether owned or leased and they subsidise the cost of the equipment for the leased price hence the need for the commitment.

I think the biggest thing is that if someone sells a receiver from an account that came from a fraudulent, or collections account they will not activate. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. If someone sells a leased receiver stating it's owned D* will not activate it. If someone sells a receiver that was stolen or deactivated by D* that was leased but cleared due to special circumstance, see natural disaster, they will not activate it. This reduces the current customers satisfaction. In the long run it's just easier for them to crack down on the biggest place that fraud occurs and that is ebay.

If they didn't want to activate these receivers they would just make a policy saying that you cannot in any way transfer receivers from one account to the other unless it's the same account holder on both accounts or in cases of divorce. This would resolve the issue you're speaking of.

My assertion is that is has nothing to do with the $4.99/mo nor does it have to do with any sort of “customer satisfaction issues”. I believe it’s a twofold issue. One, with the leasing model, D* gets to lease and re-lease the same receiver over and over. And two, I keeps them from being able to extend commitments.

For example, I have an H20 that I really don’t use, but I keep it on my account because if I disconnect it, they’ll want it back, and if a year from now, I decide I want it back, they will want *another* $99 up front lease fee and to reset my commitment term. Not only that, when they get my H20 back, they will turn around and re-lease it to someone else for another $99 up-front fee. Yes, I know they sometimes “make deals”, but that’s beside the point because the “expectation” of revenue is there.

As for a global policy of not activating receivers on another account, that gets far too complicated. Like you said, there can be divorces and other circumstance D* does not want to get involved in. As it is, they just allow it. Besides, they do *sell* receivers like the HR21PRO.

Basically, they don’t want owned units out in the secondary market because it dilutes the value of the lease fees. For example, if an owned H20 was selling on the secondary market for less than the lease fee, then many customers may just buy them there with the added bonus of no commitment extension. Even if the receiver was selling on the secondary for 50% more than the lease fee, it might be a good buy because one, it would circumvent the commitment extension, and two, when the buyer no longer needed it, some (or possibly all) of the purchase price could be recouped by selling it again.

Although they don’t want these owned receivers in the market, they don’t care about fraudulent (or ignorant) sales of leased receivers. The reason is that they know they won’t activate it for the buyer, and this will then create turmoil and uncertainty in the market. How often do we tell people here to avoid buying on eBay? We do that because people have been burned buying a receiver leased to someone else that can’t be activated.

[Shades228]

[QUOTE=Shades228;1839874]DirecTV has a charity program??? I know of a non-profit that could benefit.


Yes but it's for employees to refer to a charity not something anyone can sign up for.

[Shades228]

[QUOTE=Shades228;1839630]

My assertion is that is has nothing to do with the $4.99/mo nor does it have to do with any sort of “customer satisfaction issues”. I believe it’s a twofold issue. One, with the leasing model, D* gets to lease and re-lease the same receiver over and over. And two, I keeps them from being able to extend commitments.

If they don't shell out any cost and then you have to pay $4.99 a mo for it it's a win for them. If you are just swapping a receiver it's still a win for them because it cost them nothing and you're happy.


For example, I have an H20 that I really don’t use, but I keep it on my account because if I disconnect it, they’ll want it back, and if a year from now, I decide I want it back, they will want *another* $99 up front lease fee and to reset my commitment term. Not only that, when they get my H20 back, they will turn around and re-lease it to someone else for another $99 up-front fee. Yes, I know they sometimes “make deals”, but that’s beside the point because the “expectation” of revenue is there.

Well it's costing you $59.88 actually for the receiver you don't want so yes in 1 year it would cost you $40.11 If you wanted it back, or you could call in and tell them you want to buy the receiver instead of lease. Have them charge you whatever the difference is and swap it to owned and then disconnect it. Pay for it to be owned through them and no more commitment issue. People can still buy an owned unit from D* they just have to ask. Most people will not do this though because of the cost difference. They could also send that receiver out as an ERP and not make any money off of it again.


As for a global policy of not activating receivers on another account, that gets far too complicated. Like you said, there can be divorces and other circumstance D* does not want to get involved in. As it is, they just allow it. Besides, they do *sell* receivers like the HR21PRO.

Actually divorce, death, and merging 2 accounts for marriage, are the only reasons D* will move receivers from 1 account to another with different names on the accounts for leased equipment. Owned it doesn't matter you just need new access cards. So they don't just allow it to be done. As I said above they *sell* all receivers if you ask for the owned price instead of lease.


Basically, they don’t want owned units out in the secondary market because it dilutes the value of the lease fees. For example, if an owned H20 was selling on the secondary market for less than the lease fee, then many customers may just buy them there with the added bonus of no commitment extension. Even if the receiver was selling on the secondary for 50% more than the lease fee, it might be a good buy because one, it would circumvent the commitment extension, and two, when the buyer no longer needed it, some (or possibly all) of the purchase price could be recouped by selling it again.

If they didn't want them they just would have a never activate policy. Again with the commitment. You don't have to have one if you don't want one. No one forces you to get a leased receiver other then yourself.


Although they don’t want these owned receivers in the market, they don’t care about fraudulent (or ignorant) sales of leased receivers. The reason is that they know they won’t activate it for the buyer, and this will then create turmoil and uncertainty in the market. How often do we tell people here to avoid buying on eBay? We do that because people have been burned buying a receiver leased to someone else that can’t be activated.

Doesn't this go against what you're trying to say? I mean you just validated why buying receivers on ebay is bad and this thread is about D* stopping receiver purchases on ebay.

Now I get what you're saying overall is that some people do have a legitimate sale. My guess is that it's a much smaller percentage then non legitimate sales though. So any company will upset a few to keep a majority happy when it comes to customer base. Easy solution is don't sell on ebay sell through other places.

The argument of D* trying to screw people to make more money though I don't agree with on this issue. If that's what they wanted to do they would do what I've said 2 times now and just stop all used equipment for being able to be activated on another account ever. This would ensure new leased equipment every time someone wanted to swap equipment out or upgrade.

[rudeney]

[QUOTE=rudeney;1840210]

Doesn't this go against what you're trying to say? I mean you just validated why buying receivers on ebay is bad and this thread is about D* stopping receiver purchases on ebay.

No, I am not saying D* is trying to stop “purchases”; they are trying to stop “sales”. They don’t care if the buyer gets a useless piece of equipment because that does not affect D*’s revenue stream. They do care if a buyer gets a good piece of equipment because now they have just lost out on up-front lease fees and a commitment extension.

Now I get what you're saying overall is that some people do have a legitimate sale. My guess is that it's a much smaller percentage then non legitimate sales though. So any company will upset a few to keep a majority happy when it comes to customer base. Easy solution is don't sell on ebay sell through other places.

There have been receivers on eBay where the seller claims it is owned and gives the RID. On my auction, I even took a close-up photo of the RID sticker on the R15. It would have taken D* 10 seconds to check the status to see if they needed to cancel these auctions due to fraud.

The argument of D* trying to screw people to make more money though I don't agree with on this issue. If that's what they wanted to do they would do what I've said 2 times now and just stop all used equipment for being able to be activated on another account ever. This would ensure new leased equipment every time someone wanted to swap equipment out or upgrade.

I believe they are trying to protect their business model that calls for high up-front lease fees and commitment extensions. That’s it. If too much equipment makes it to the secondary market, then it dilutes the value of getting it from D*.

[joe diamond]

The whole function of the access card is..........access. That is why they are part of the system. DTV controls who gets access. Once an account is closed the cards are closed also. The eq can be activated when another party wants to begin paying.......Right? The new party gets a new card ($20.00) and it begins again.

Joe

[rudeney]

The whole function of the access card is..........access. That is why they are part of the system. DTV controls who gets access. Once an account is closed the cards are closed also. The eq can be activated when another party wants to begin paying.......Right? The new party gets a new card ($20.00) and it begins again.

Joe

Access cards are licensed to the account and assigned to a specific receiver on the account. When you sell a receiver or buy a used one, the access card should not be included, and yes, D* will charges $20 for a new access card when you transfer a used receiver onto your account. If you have a spare access card that was previously used in a receiver on your account that has since been deactivated, D* may allow you to use that card on a new receiver to avoid paying $20 for a new one. For example, you have a standard receiver but buy a used DVR from a friend. D* may allow you to deactivate the standard receiver, then transfer its access card to the DVR and activate it.

Although sometimes a CSR will activate a receiver with someone else’s access card, they aren’t supposed to and it can cause problems. The access card stores PPV’s and premium content ordered via remote until it gets uploaded to D* over the phone line or network connection to be billed. If you were to activate a receiver with a used access card that had un-billed PPV’s on it, you would then be billed for those when your receiver then uploads them onto *your* account.

[Starchy77]

Hey Rudeney,
I wouldn't believe everything that you see on Ebay! A couple of months ago I had 2 IRD's up for sale on the site, and some people starting asking me pretty specific questions about them. When I checked the units, I realized that I had made a mistake on the listing so I canceled the listing and re-listed them correctly. After I canceled them, I got these 2 notices from EBay:

16043

16044

DirecTV never canceled these listings, I did. Getting these messages I thought was pretty funny, because by the time I saw them I had the corrected listings back up for sale. I ended up selling both units....... What I am getting at is that even if someone sends "proof" that DirecTV canceled the listing does not make it real. What I cannot figure out is why Ebay would send this message? Maybe it just makes it easier for them to cancel a listing without having to adhere to their typically more strict rules?

[rudeney]

Hey Rudeney,
I wouldn't believe everything that you see on Ebay! A couple of months ago I had 2 IRD's up for sale on the site, and some people starting asking me pretty specific questions about them. When I checked the units, I realized that I had made a mistake on the listing so I canceled the listing and re-listed them correctly. After I canceled them, I got these 2 notices from EBay:

16043

16044

DirecTV never canceled these listings, I did. Getting these messages I thought was pretty funny, because by the time I saw them I had the corrected listings back up for sale. I ended up selling both units....... What I am getting at is that even if someone sends "proof" that DirecTV canceled the listing does not make it real. What I cannot figure out is why Ebay would send this message? Maybe it just makes it easier for them to cancel a listing without having to adhere to their typically more strict rules?


My guess is that your self-cancellation and the VeRO cancellation came at about the same time. A self-cancelled auction will still be “searchable”, it will just show as “closed” with a reason like, “the seller canceled this auction because the item is no longer for sale”. Those canceled by VeRO will completely disappear, like they never existed. Check your listing – I’ll bet you can’t find any record of it anywhere (I can’t). Also keep in mind that VeRO can cancel an auction even after it is completed. It can even cancel it after the buyer has paid and the seller has shipped. When this happens, the auction “disappears” and neither the buyer nor seller will have any of the eBay or PayPal protections. Of course if both are happy, then there is no problem.

One thing I have noticed is that VeRO seems to take a few days to go through the auctions and cancel them. My guess is that eBay’s “bot” scans the auction once posted and sends any suspects to the rights owner, who then can make the decision. In D*’s case, they may have a person look at them or have them checked against authorized dealer accounts and such. This seems to take a few days, which means that short auctions (1-3 days) may be able to get in under the radar. Of course you’d also have to have payment processed quickly, too.

[phl08]

I tried selling two owned HR20-700's last week. Within 3 days they were both de-listed. I had clearly advertised that they were owned and no access card was included. I emailed eBay and they referred me to directv@ipinfringementsemail.com. I emailed directv and they responded within about a day or two with the following:

Dear eBay Seller:

DIRECTV's Office of Signal Integrity is responsible for investigating any allegations concerning fraud and unauthorized use of satellite programming. We have received information regarding your on eBay for the sale of DIRECTV satellite equipment.

DIRECTV incurs considerable costs to provide satellite equipment and programming to its customers and thus, DIRECTV has significant interests in maintaining and securing the integrity of its programming. DIRECTV has no record of authorizing you to sell DIRECTV satellite equipment.

If you are selling the equipment with the DIRECTV Access Card, your attention is directed to the back of the access card, which clearly states the access card is the property of DIRECTV. DIRECTV incurs significant costs to provide satellite equipment and programming to its customers and has no record of authorizing you to sell these access cards.

If you are in possession of any DIRECTV Access Cards, please return them to the following address:

DIRECTV, Inc.
Attention: The Office of Signal Integrity
P.O. Box 1080
El Segundo, CA 90245


If you are an authorized DIRECTV Dealer, then please notify us immediately so that we can update our records. Otherwise, you are hereby notified to cease and desist the sale of DIRECTV satellite equipment and any use of DIRECTV trademarks or brands.

DIRECTV takes all threats to the integrity of its business very seriously and intends to pursue vigorously all available legal remedies to protect its rights, including initiating legal proceedings in Federal District Court seeking the award of damages and other available relief when necessary. If you would like to respond to this notice, contact us via e-mail at directv@ipinfringementsemail.com.

So it appears they are now trying to enforce this sketchy rule that only authorized dealers may sell DirecTV equipment.

I relisted my stuff a few times and reduced the auction times. Eventually I got some buy-it-now offers and they are both sold. And - funny enough - the listings were canceled after the sales were made and equipment was shipped to new owners.

I got a lot of questions from potential buyers as to what the RID was so they could verify that it was not a leased receiver. I responded and one of the ultimate buyers said that almost all sellers of the newer equipment responded to him with RIDs that were leases. So I can understand DTV trying to limit the problems incurred with fraudulent sales, but they need a better way of enforcing it for legitimate people selling used, pre-OWNED equipment.

[JLucPicard]

A couple of questions I have for those getting listings cancelled:

1) Is the data-mining software just picking up on the words "access card" and triggering a cancellation even if those words are in the phrase "no access card" or "does NOT include access card", etc.? If the words "access card" are not used anywhere in the listing, is it still getting cancelled?

2) I've sold a couple of DVDs where you can put a SKU number in and it pulls pictures/descriptions. Is the same true of these receiver listings? In other words, do the listings make use of these "canned" pics/description and that is part of what DirecTV is objecting to - the use of their "DIRECTV trademaks or brands"?

I realize it may be one or both of the above, or have nothing to do with that whatsoever. Just wondering if there is anything identifiable that is causing them to be cancelled.

[CJTE]

Dayyyyuuummmn. There's ALOT of text on this page, which has probably expounded upon what I said, about access cards not being able to be sold/transferred, etc.

From what I have observed and experienced, it only affects the new D*-branded receivers (R1x, H2x, HR2x, etc.) that are usually leased.

Without reading the whole thread, having made a guide to buying receivers on ebay/etc (shameless promotion) what I can tell you is:

DirecTV does not officially prohibit sales of any equipment on any seller services website. DirecTV Set Top Boxes that are marked as owned in DirecTVs Customer Management System are able to be transferred from one account to another.

For the most part, when it comes to selling a receiver, DirecTV claims that the Access Card is their property, leased/owned, and therefore if you attempt to sell an access card and they're made aware of it they will strike you down if possible/feasible.

Like I posted earlier, go out to eBay and search for D* receivers for sale such as HR2x’s. Sort through them and weed out the ones for sale by authorized dealers (usually noted as such or have sealed access cards includes). Put these remaining “private seller” items in your watch list *AND* make a manual list of them. Go back a week later and compare your manual list to your watched items and see which ones have “disappeared off the face of eBay”. You might be quite surprised to find what’s happening.

I don't need to. I understand what you're talking about.
While I have my doubts, it is possible that DirecTV is proactively scanning Ebay for DirecTV branded receivers, especially the ones made after the lease start date, and then asking ebay to remove them.
Ive bought, and sold, manya receiver on ebay. Notice that Hughes DVR40's dont disappear for the most part, with/without access card. Neither do RCA's, Samsungs, etc etc etc, because there's a 99% chance those are listed as Owned on the customers account. (While its possible to set one up as leased... For example, if a new access card is purchased, and its put on a new account, by default it is leased, even though it pre-lease period).
POINT: Post-Lease receivers being sold with access cards could very well be being pulled off ebay, but I bet their are ways around it. For example, clearly stating that the unit is OWNED, Clearly posting the RID number (not just a picture of it), leaving the Access Card out of the pictures, and not mentioning the Access Card at all (that way if they're searching for say, HR20+"Access Card" your post wont show up).

A couple of questions I have for those getting listings cancelled:

1) Is the data-mining software just picking up on the words "access card" and triggering a cancellation even if those words are in the phrase "no access card" or "does NOT include access card", etc.? If the words "access card" are not used anywhere in the listing, is it still getting cancelled?

2) I've sold a couple of DVDs where you can put a SKU number in and it pulls pictures/descriptions. Is the same true of these receiver listings? In other words, do the listings make use of these "canned" pics/description and that is part of what DirecTV is objecting to - the use of their "DIRECTV trademaks or brands"?

I realize it may be one or both of the above, or have nothing to do with that whatsoever. Just wondering if there is anything identifiable that is causing them to be cancelled.

1) The first time I heard about this (and the only time, until now) last year, it was because the seller had mentioned that the access card was included. If DirecTV is in fact going about this, I would bet it would be anything that had to do with the words 'Access Card'. As a matter of fact, I think it was posted here... lol.

2) I haven't seen that option yet. Not to say it doesnt exist. I have seen templates used, but not from eBay.
I wouldn't recommend using a(n ebay) template just for that reason.

[CJTE]

I believe they are trying to protect their business model that calls for high up-front lease fees and commitment extensions. That’s it. If too much equipment makes it to the secondary market, then it dilutes the value of getting it from D*.

Rodney... You've seemingly become an overnight expert regarding Access Card policies... Did somebody let you peak into the ACDT's little black book? :lol:

ANYWAYS. I just wanted to side-note here, DirecTV is very adamant about not creating an account on old equipment except under special conditions.
This means that you have to either:
1) Get a new leased receiver from DirecTV with commitment to activate a new account, then you can get a new access card for your old receiver, OR,
2) Pay the full price for a receiver from DirecTV with no commitment.

Ive heard stories of 'special circumstances', The only plausible one I see would be a customer splitting there account between 2 addresses, suchas a primary home and a vacation home, at which time the leased equipment is at their primary home, and there is owned equipment at their vacation home. Such a 'special circumstance', if phrased correctly to the CSR, is to be immediatly transferred to Customer Retentions, who handles that call.
IIRC, Customer retentions sets up the account, then transfers to ACDT for the actual moving of receivers.

[henryld]

Several weeks ago, after noticing this thread, I flagged ("watch this item") a bunch of auctions for HR20-700's just to see what happened. All but one have disappeared. The one remaining, Item No. 180299516605 closed on 10-23-08, was for a used unit with access card. Go figure???:confused:

[rudeney]

Rodney... You've seemingly become an overnight expert regarding Access Card policies... Did somebody let you peak into the ACDT's little black book? :lol:

No peeking, just "armchair observations".

[David MacLeod]

No peeking, just "armchair observations".
lol, maybe Rodney has multiple ebay stores and all these listings were actually his :):)

[rudeney]

lol, maybe Rodney has multiple ebay stores and all these listings were actually his :):)

Ha! I wish I had multiple eBay stores! I buy from multiple stores, does that count? :) Seriously, I only had one of my own auctions canceled for an R15. THis all really started when I was trying to buy an owned HR2x (to drop in a bigger drive) and darned if every time I found a good deal if it wasn’t canceled!