The Charlie Collection (excerpts from many forums and msg boards)

[Marcus S]

Seems these topics are now getting some attention. I copy pasted from many forums and the Yahoo message board. After I looked at it, (my mouth fell open), but I do agree with alot of it, nor need to care.

Hi all, I have edited the intro to add the following; "To all these are ""copy paste"", address the bullets, not me. Post your positive experience or your opinion. That's all that counts. Said, no one should disagree that these topics have not come up on endless individual posts. If anything, I do believe there is some merit to "some" of these concerns posted by "others". For others I appologize in advance for the rollup in one post.

· Rurals founded Dish Network and made Echostar what it is today, now Charlie is pulling more distant networks starting with Dallas in May, and eventually Chicago / Denver and moving them to spot beam?
· Let me understand this… Dish Network is dropping rural distant networks and has announced at the same time they plan to add 100 more International Channel by the end of the year? Since when do foreigners out number distant network subscribers, especially at an average of $12 per channel? L
· I went to order a 6000 from Dish Network and they told me they discontinued production in March and inventory is limited to retailer stock? What moron in Dish Network marketing decided to;
1) Discontinue the 6000. 2) told Charlie to announce the only long awaited HD receiver will be an HD PVR and modestly priced at $999, and oh by the way (mouth drops open), it will not ship until December? But wait, Charlie then says on Charlie Chat, but the good news is we will be adding a few additional HD channels this summer and Echostar plans to be the leader in HDTV programming. –stunned-
· Who did Charlie hire for his marketing team, the folks from Enron, or is he just that stupid?
· Not to worry, once defections begin, it’s difficult to stop the slide once you have a bad reputation and with the history of Charlie’s advisory team, they will just tell him that subscriber loses in this economy where expected.
· Yeah, well I have to hold Charlie responsible for deciding to drop the 6000 and get Echostar out of having to put development $’s into upgrade it to OpenTV and fix the fact that in HD mode, close caption does not work.
· I don’t know why your complaining, Dish has yet to fix half the bugs in the 721. Does that mean their going to discontinue it to get out of fixing it?
· The PVR521 still does not support distinctive ringing caller id, 6h buffer, or Wish List. I am thinking of switching to Tivo, but that upfront annual is a killer when added to the cost of a Tivo2.
· What is Dish Network going to do now, especially since Sadam Ergen was unable to add that shinny Jewel (DTV) to his arsenal and worst of all, lost it to his most hated enemy.
· Charlie has more to worry about with the latest price increase and alienating his mid-level subscribers by across package $1 price increase while discounting the entry package (hoping for subscriber upgrades), lent with Dish 100 subs (he thinks) provided your only interested in 100/HBO/Cinemax, and Everything Pak subs that have yet to see a price increase. Isn’t this the same guy who promised that Dish Network would be the leader in offering the best value to mid-level subscribers?
· I think E* subscribers have more to worry about. I thought that E* was in talks with SBC and Cablevision.
· That and a 26” oval Dish? Where are the Pennsylvania Nets again?
· Does that mean I can look forward to my next buggy upgrade that gives me no new features? –sigh-
· Remember Charlie promises nothing, he just hints and never delivers.
· Let us not forget Charlie may be the CEO, but Echostar corporation makes the decisions as idiotic as they are.
. What’s with the stupid Dancing Dish, does Dish think we all live in Toon Town?
· Well, there web site looks a lot better, I just can’t find anything and it takes a coffee break to load.
· When does Charlie Plan to add the YES network or is DTV just going to continue to edge Dish out, well it seems they are content with becoming the new generic cable company in town.
. No, he just more interested in adding as many non-interest and nitch channels as possible because they are free. They don't call him cheap Charlie for nothing. "But hey, we offer more channels than our competition."
. I new something was up when they pulled Super's and Distant Net offerings from their primary programming web page and you have to go through qual before you even get the "to be removed" qual.
. E* needs to get over OEM all receivers. Growth is only going to happen if they open their receiver line-up to other manuf's that can offer inovations that E* will never realize.
. E* will be the 1st to offer an HDTV PVR.
. No, Tivo is coming out with theirs about the same time.
. No, both will suffer from black out central, but you cannot blame either provider for that one.
. Interesting that DVI is becoming the standard for HDTV, but IEE1394 (fire wire) with black out encrpytion is the new standard for DVD-W and D-VHS.

[Ken Seeber]

It's getting to the point where I'm almost willing to pay you to leave Dish Network, Marcus.

[Marcus S]

I am no longer on Dish. So the point is mute, but still a nice hobby. :) To all these are "copy paste", address the bullets, not me. Post your positive experience or your opinion. That's all that counts.

[TrickeyOne]

Originally posted by Marcus S
I am no longer on Dish. So the point is mute, but still a nice hobby. :) To all these are "copy paste", address the bullets, not me. Post your positive experience or your opinion. That's all that counts.

If your grasp of the english language is representative of your understanding of how the sat business works I'll be taking your opinions with a grain of salt.

The point is mute LOL. Perhaps we should put you on mute.

[Scott Greczkowski]

There are some VERY valid comments made up there.

This is a wake up call for Charlie.

[gopherscot]

Marcus does make some valid points ... but some of them are off the wall! Sadam Charlie really is not all that funny.

I feel I am a typical dish customer that, in my opinion, represents most of the typical satellite buyers. I think all this talk by Marcus is things most of us could care less about. Out of the millions of satellite users how many come to DBSTalk or DBS Forums. Hell the guy that sold me my dish 4 years ago never has heard of the site. I have the Top150, Minneapolis and Denver locals, sports pack, HBO, and an extra receiver. I pay 87.00 a month. I have a PVR501 and a 3000. To me this is the ultimate. I don't care about YES, the 6000, all your Dishplayer bugs (my units have worked great since day one), and all the other crap Marcus is whining about. He probably makes some sense to the DBS junkie... but not to most of America. Most people want the Top50 (which is the best buy in the business) and maybe their locals. All they want is a standard receiver and could care less about all the extra expensive ones on the market. Charlie watches the dollar and only adds when the price is right. Granted it pisses off people that want Fox Ohio ball games, YES, and certain extra channels. I get 3 sports channels with all the games (none blacked out), the superstations (DTV does not have), and a great bargain in the Top150. DTV cannot give me what I want. Charlie has a great introduction package and that is why Dish is growing ... most of America could care less about all the other thing that infuriate Marcus and other DBS junkies. Maybe I am right... maybe I am wrong ... but it is the way I feel. I am tired of the constant bitching and Charlie name calling. This is business .. if Charlie's numbers slide, then and only then, do I see any major changes.

[Mike123abc]

Marcus has been on a tear since Dallas distants nets were going to be dropped from national subs. It is quite possible since most of the DMAs in TX are now covered with LIL Dallas nets just are not a big seller any more. I know the spot does not reach high in the rocky mountains (from Marcus location post) so he will no longer be able to watch Dallas and might have to settle for Denver nets (gasp). I bet if Dallas nets were a big money maker for Dish they would be kept.

[Mike D-CO5]

I agree with Gopherscot , I have been reading this board for over a year befor I became a member. One thing I see over and over is negative crap talked up against Dish. It really get old.

Dish has made some significant improvements and inovations to satellite industry; the first digital recorder was one, Local into locals was another.

I added Directv to my service in December as well as Dish and I have compared the two . I will be keeping Dish and dumping Directv when my comitment is up . Nothing against Directv, I do like their Music choice channels better than Muzak. I just don't see keeping them for the 3 channels I don't get with Dish.


Can't we keep this place a more positive place for ideas for both satellite providers . They do read these boards and some of the ideas are being used in the software right know thanks to this board's suggestions.
Personal attacks agianst Dish or Directv are kind of juvenile . To each his own is what I always say.

[Jacob S]

I have sold Dish for four years and really really liked them better than Direct but lately I think more and more about going to Direct and not selling Dish anymore. I usually only sell what I believe in and I am starting to not believe in Dish anymore as much as I used to. I do not totally diss Dish, but its just not the same as it used to be. The advantages of Direct is becoming ever more clear to me lately.

[Marcus S]

Though I was only interested in two of the bullets, and strongly opinionated from another's perspective, there are some valid concerns and points by existing subscribers across the board. While some would dismiss one or all, or just go fishing. I have learned one thing, until you are directly effected by one or many of the issues, typically an individual is not going to be sympathetic. When it happens to you, then we hear about it on this and other forums from excessive to exhaust volume.

If there is point to be made, several of these issues are justified complaints and E* should realize them. However, it's is heating up for retailers who feel that E* has a deaf ear.

---

Again, most are not "my points" and why I posted them as I did. Yes, Marcus did whine and moan -loudly- about the loss of Dallas Distant Nets and OpenTV for the 6000. Most of the other bullets would not have effected my decision to jump off a cliff, but for others it is the same passion just different issues that are impacting their E* experience.

---

I will say -opinion- Charlie's grandeur conduct during the DTV merger and the con to get DTV subs to defect early was highly unprofessional.

[Richard King]

Someone obviously has WAY too much time on his hands.

the con to get DTV subs to defect early was highly unprofessional.Which Charlie had nothing to do with and was done by several dealers with no scruples. Attempting to accuse Charlie or anyone connected to Dish corporate to the scams these dealers were pulling just puts a cloud on your credibility.

[jrbdmb]

OK, let me address a few points from Marcus' original post
(and I understand you didn't write the post, just copy/paste):

- I had not heard anywhere that Chicago / Denvers NETs are going way. What is your source for this? As for Dallas, I suspect this was a business decision based on cost vs. revenue. (You can say it was the wrong decision ... we'll see. I'll also note that as of yesterday, the Dish address broker still shows Dallas NETs as available.)

- International Channels are a cash cow for Dish. No suprise here.

- Like it or not, HD is still a niche product, and the majority of subscribers could care less about the 6000. No excuse for the 6000 issues, but I doubt this makes a major impact to Dish's bottom line (yet).

- Price increases are inevitable. The package I have (AT150 + Sports) is still a better value than DirecTV. But I understand that in some areas DirecTV is a better deal, and I hope Charlie will address that in the near future, esp. since missing channels like YES are explained away as an effort to keep costs down.

- Stupid personal attacks ("Sadam", etc.) best ignored. :nono:

Also, just curioius - I don't check out the DirecTV boards very often since I don't own the product - why is it that so many DirecTV subscribers feel compelled to bash Dish at every opportunity? :nono2:

[Mike D-CO5]

Could it be insecurity that makes Directv subscribers bash Dish at every chance? Maybe the uncertainity of the last 18 months on who gets Directv has got to them . Dish is starting to grow faster than Directv who has just kind of been in a stagnant period.

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Rking401
Someone obviously has WAY too much time on his hands.

Which Charlie had nothing to do with and was done by several dealers with no scruples. Attempting to accuse Charlie or anyone connected to Dish corporate to the scams these dealers were pulling just puts a cloud on your credibility.

It's called corporate responsibility. Though Charlie's name is evoked more often than Echostar corporation, it is the responsibility of the corporation to to manage their outlets. In this case a handfull of retailers got their hand slapped. Ironically we do not see Roxanne's name plastered in front of *D posts and that is not meant to be a plug for *D. Nor do I have 2200 posts acredited to my name on this forum in 1 year.

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by jrbdmb [/i]
OK, let me address a few points from Marcus' original post
(and I understand you didn't write the post, just copy/paste):

- I had not heard anywhere that Chicago / Denvers NETs are going way. What is your source for this? As for Dallas, I suspect this was a business decision based on cost vs. revenue. (You can say it was the wrong decision ... we'll see. I'll also note that as of yesterday, the Dish address broker still shows Dallas NETs as available.)

---Actually this has been confirmed. You can call Sorya Cartright's office for your own confirmation.

- International Channels are a cash cow for Dish. No suprise here.

---No doubt their pricy, but I am not sure they have the numbers they where hoping for. Obviously business says they do.

- Like it or not, HD is still a niche product, and the majority of subscribers could care less about the 6000. No excuse for the 6000 issues, but I doubt this makes a major impact to Dish's bottom line (yet).

---I disagree on the point it is a nitch market, I know more than less than that now own an HDTV though may only be watching DVD's.

- Price increases are inevitable. The package I have (AT150 + Sports) is still a better value than DirecTV. But I understand that in some areas DirecTV is a better deal, and I hope Charlie will address that in the near future, esp. since missing channels like YES are explained away as an effort to keep costs down.

---YES and a few others. I think the opinion that was stated surrounds price vs quality channel line-up between the two DBS providers perhaps non-issue for E* Everything pack subs.

-Stupid personal attacks ("Sadam", etc.) best ignored.

---Agree, but it is the frustration of existing subscribers hoping for improvements across the board that have not materialized. Neither can his almost scary pashion to acquire *D, religous fight to get subs to call congress, and attempts to tell the FCC they are an obsolete dictatorship. (the last, probably being true.)

Also, just curioius - I don't check out the DirecTV boards very often since I don't own the product - why is it that so many DirecTV subscribers feel compelled to bash Dish at every opportunity?

---The attacks for the most part have dropped off or *D subs have recognized their own issues or existing or potental E* subs have recongized theirs. However, the PVR bugs of past and present still haunt many on E*'s commitment to problems fixed in a timely fashion.

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Mike D-CO5
Could it be insecurity that makes Directv subscribers bash Dish at every chance? Maybe the uncertainity of the last 18 months on who gets Directv has got to them . Dish is starting to grow faster than Directv who has just kind of been in a stagnant period.

I think both are leveling out, and that is not me that saying, that is from the industry analysts. What's left for each provider is to correctly evaluate market demand for new programming products, packages and choices, offer latest inovations in technology, and offer value and price. So how does either provider stand and where are they going.

[Nick]

With the purchase by Rupert,
this thread is now moot.
On the subject of Charlie,
I shall remain mute.

[Cheyenne]

Obviously Marcus has some kind of hidden agenda. He doesn't even subscribe to Dish anymore, so what is the point in posting
this "flame" post ? And the name calling looks very poorly upon you Marcus. Shame, Shame.
Get a life, Marcus.

[Marcus S]

Cheyenne, do you disagree with the bullets or was your intention to evoke a personal attack without addressing the topic?

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Nick
With the purchase by Rupert,
this thread is now moot.
On the subject of Charlie,
I shall remain mute.

I only think the last is a sad point unless your not directly effected by the issues. There are "some" real and valid issues here, not to scrape the original content, E* does need to address their equipment lineup quickly and/or upgrade features, quality vs quantity to justify the latest price increase, distant nets wave in the breeze to others like the American Flag. Will ignoring any of these issues fix the problems or will they magically go away, or existing subs not effected dont' care. One thing for certain, retailers do, and are pressuring E* to hear "their" voice.

[Nick]

:rolleyes:

Forgive me for being so oblique;
I have to work to do on my technique.

- it's moot, not "mute"

...and here's a freeby:

- it's the Rockies, not the "Rockys"

[Marcus S]

Well, you are possibly irriated on current E* issues as well, but then are only two to climb? :)

[Postal Employee]

Are you or are you not the Snyder, "the 13" and part of the Ku design team under gov contract in 87 that came up with with DBS technology that we all use today?

[Mike123abc]

Well it comes down to Dish is in the business to make money, not provide the television channels everyone might want, where they want, how they want, and with the equipment they might want.

Dish is basing decisions on what will make them the most money. As any corporation should. Now of course to make money you need to have customers to pay you, and to get these customers you need to provide the goods/services that they will pay for at the lowest possible price.

Now, assuming Marcus is correct and they are going to drop all but NY/LA distants, they must think that the cost of uplinking and the cost of transponder capacity is too high for the number of subscribers they have. I have pointed out in the past that as they add literally a 100+ markets covering 90%+ of the US population, many people will opt for LIL rather than distants. Maybe they decided that by freeing up 2 transponders on 110 for other programming (maybe 6-8 HDTV channels) would attract a large number of subs and make up for any possibly lost subs. Where do these subs think they are going to go anyways? DirecTV does not offer them, and C-Band is about abandoned and a pain to use. E* knows this and decided to make them suffer a bit and could possibly lose a few subs but will gain more in the long run.

As people around here gripe and complain about the E* equipment, E* increases subs. This would indicate that the vast majority of E* subs think the equipment works just fine. It could be argued that they do not know better, but at this point they do not care to go find out what other equipment is there.

With respect to the HD market, I do think Dish is going to do the correct business decision and run out their supply of 6000s before they introduce a lower cost new HD receiver with Open TV and other features people will want (not talking about the 921 PVR). Why saddle yourself with millions of useless inventory? They know they can get rid of the 6000 soon and it is starting to show that they are about out.

As far as what channels they carry for what cost (like YES), I am sure they have studied it extensively and determined what the costs vs the lost subs are and selected lost subs. Maybe they have accurate info that the average YES sub would not come to Dish anyways because there is no NFLST or MLBEI on Dish. This would explain why DirecTV felt it was essential, and Dish did not.

This is not a defense of Charlie or Dish, just trying to point out that they are a business that makes decisions on a $$ point of view not a wish list point of view. If they are betting wrong then they will lose subs and will lose money. Then they will make adjustments. If they decided YES was the answer, they know how much they would have to pay and could go out and make the deal tomorrow.

[Richard King]

Wow!! A voice of reason.

[reddice]

The only thing that Dish has that Directv does not have is the superstations so it is not worth it switching, as long as we get our Mets games we are okay.

[Mike123abc]

I suspect the only reason the Superstations are not going the way of the other distants is that so many markets are missing a UPN, WB or both. Here we have UPN but no WB. Probably a much wider following on superstation than Dallas/Denver/Chicago main networks.

[gopherscot]

They are missing a few of the premium stations as well such as Showtime Beyond.

[Marcus S]

E*'s attraction in the past was to offer many nitches that the competition did not offer. If E* continues ther direction to drop these nitch areas, becomes a mirror of *D, less channels such as YES, PBS Kids, Ogygen, but still retains the one and last nitch, International Channels, what will prevent the average consumer from saying, well both providers are pretty equal so I'll go with whoever gives me the best install and equipment deal?

[Mike123abc]

I think E* has found out that you are exactly correct Marcus. When you go to the store to look at E* and D* what are the odds you are going to get someone at Walmart that can tell you the difference? Instead you will see the price only. They will look more closely at the monthly price & up front costs and less at the individual channels. With the independent dealer fading away as people flock to Radio Shack and Walmart who can tell the difference between the two services? E* is hoping you will be WOWed by how cheap AT-50 is or how many channels you can get quantity wise not quality wise. DirecTV hopes that NFLST will make you buy them. People in and around NY probably look for YES now if it is important to them.

The only reason I picked E* over D* was the Superstations. I will freely admit it. But, now I would not be able to make that choice because the new marketing brochures do not make a mention of the Superstations. I would instead stay with cable... Sad there is almost no way to find out about the Superstations on E*. I have local UPN OTA, but no WB. Cable carries the basic WB feed.

I would bet 90%+ of DBS sales are simply made on price. Price of cable is what drove me to look at DBS... when my cable jumped up to over $110/month. When I saw the Superstations were available on Dish I decided to switch.

Dish is slowly losing me as a customer with price increases. My Dish bill at my renewal next month is going to go to be $103/month. I am hanging on just for the HDTV content, if my cable company came out with an HDTV package I would consider switching back. DBS is a pain compared to cable, you have to have an adapter box for every TV. At least with cable you can get analog free on every TV in the house, and when Digital cable ready TVs come out you will not need a box at them either.

[Cheyenne]

Marcus has not concept as to Echostar business plan.
A ex-worker that has "other" motives.

[Marcus S]

I am employed and have never worked for E*. If your belief is that all corporations have viable business plans, I would look around at all the Fortune 100 and 500 companies that are now gone, in Chapter 11, or are having to merge to survive. But again, you side track, make personal attacks, and do not address or counter the posted issues. I would suggest that you read the recent New York Time article about E*.

[Sherlock]

So, you're suggesting by these arguments you have brought over from Yahoo that E* is going out of business?

Can you provide a NYT link or at least give us something more than "Echostar" to do a document search and identify the specific article you keep referring to? Has anybody else addressed the NYT topic?

[Marcus S]

Not at all. These are issues that existing subs are having, many have been discussed individually here and on other forums, the opinion ones are obviously source Yahoo, but highlight a rising stress level. The purpose is for discussion, reflection, or to post your positive experiences. The hope by many of these people is for E* to address their issue(s) and not everyone is effected by the same sub set of issues. The NYT topic can be found in the General forum, or click here;
Dish Network NYT Article Discussion (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=14338)

[Sherlock]

Thank you.

I had a similar "no deal for long term subs" experience that forced me to leave DirecTV a couple of years ago. The way to see how the companies are performing, and whether or not the subs are happy, is by growth. E* has been reducing churn and growing at a greater rate with lower SAC. We'll see how things go forward after the NWS/GMH deal is consummated.

Greg M

[Marcus S]

You bring up an interesting question on churn. If *D and E* become almost mirrors, what will consumers be looking for in the comparison process, what will either provider need to do to attract growth, and though the NYT aritcle targeted E* on these questions, both providers should also be looking closely at what causes churn. Perhaps the articles note that Charlie and executive team are in Mexico on summit, is a hopefull indication they will be addressing these issues and future business direction.

[Sherlock]

...yet they don't need to go to Mexico to figure out such things.

[Marcus S]

<duplicate> removing.

[Cheyenne]

Minimizing churn? I figure both DBS providers and cable realize that most customers create a closed loop.
Or maybe all providers simply lower standards together, thus no where to churn to. The industry seems to be putting more effort into trickery vs. customer service now.

[BobMurdoch]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
There are some VERY valid comments made up there.

This is a wake up call for Charlie.

Scott, I'm getting concerned.......

You have a disillusioned tone in your posts that sounds like you are souring on E* in a hurry.... I noticed the same phenomena when Dan Collins at DBSForums starting circulating a desire to start a class action suit on E*. He went from singing their praises to heaping scorn in a short time.

Is this a short term frustration on your part, or are you contemplating hopping over the fence as well?

Just wondering.......