View Full Version : ZDNet: Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!
Mark Holtz
10-29-08, 11:28 PM
From ZDNet:
Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!Blu-ray is in a death spiral. 12 months from now Blu-ray will be a videophile niche, not a mass market product.
With only a 4% share of US movie disc sales and HD download capability arriving, the Blu-ray disc Association (BDA) is still smoking dope. Even $150 Blu-ray players won’t save it.
16 months ago I called the HD war for Blu-ray. My bad. Who dreamed they could both lose?FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365)
Hmmm....I like Blu-ray myself. I hope this just causes more price drops.
Two things are hurting Blu-ray sales: high price of Blu-ray discs and upconverting DVD players. When people can buy widescreen DVD's for half the cost of Blu-ray product and play them back at near HD quality, why buy Blu-ray? The BDA is shooting itself in the foot by enforcing high prices in general.In retrospect, Hollywood's paranoia about copying killed HD DVD, which was a less expensive approach to high quality DVD's.
I'm seriously considering joining Netflix for obtaining movies for home viewing.
Stuart Sweet
10-30-08, 10:26 AM
Time will tell. I think it's too early to say Blu-Ray is dead or dying. I think we all agree "real" media will probably lose to downloadable product but there is a question of when.
sub-$100 BD players are very likely by spring IMO and I see most BD new releases only $2-3 more than comparable DVDs.
fluffybear
10-30-08, 10:28 AM
Makes me kind of glad that the wife insisted we sit back and wait before going to Blu-Ray.
They key at this point is the insane cost of producing discs. The same was true of LASERdisc and to a lesser extent capacitive discharge discs.
As long as it costs more to manufacture a disc than most of the public is accustomed to paying for a DVD set, the interest will be limited.
dhhaines
10-30-08, 10:50 AM
Time will tell. I think it's too early to say Blu-Ray is dead or dying. I think we all agree "real" media will probably lose to downloadable product but there is a question of when.
sub-$100 BD players are very likely by spring IMO and I see most BD new releases only $2-3 more than comparable DVDs.
I really hope that "real" media doesn't go away. There is still something to be said for having the disk. When only downloadable media is available you'll have to buy the media for each new device it is used on, instead of being able to take it with you on vacation, to friends, etc.. I believe that's what this is going to come to. :nono2:
I'm slowly starting to buy more BD movies - up to one a month now - but only for movies on sale and under $25. Most of them I've purchased have been $19.9 or were $25 and I used Reward Zone coupons to lower the price.
This would suck if it's true, but what's really going to happen is that I will stop buying BD movies again simply to see what happens, and if others follow-suit, this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: By waiting to see if BD survives, I contribute to its demise.
rudeney
10-30-08, 01:39 PM
For movies, I prefer to own the actual disc rather than watch a download. First of all, I actually enjoy having a collection of movies on the shelf (well, shelves) and second, having the disc means I can trade with friends. With downloads and PPV’s, you can’t trade them and in fact it may not always be convenient to go back and watch an older movie. On top of that, I enjoy the “bonus” content of movies, like the director commentary, deleted scenes, bloopers, backstage documentaries, etc.
I not upgraded to Blu-Ray mainly because of the price, but also because my friends and family don’t have the players, so we couldn’t trade movies if I start buying new discs. Of course now that the price is dropping, that will likely change. Blu-Ray is already on my Christmas list, and I am guessing we’ll give at lease one player as a gift.
Stewart Vernon
10-30-08, 01:45 PM
I agree with much of what has already been said. Initial entry was the first roadblock with high-priced players... but the main problem remains to be movies that are priced too high.
Even though many stores sell with "discounts", the MSRP for many Blu ray titles continues to be $39.95 and upwards which is just insane to most consumers... so even when a place like Amazon has a 30% discount, it just takes the price to where most of us think MSRP should be and we still wait for deals.
Also, hollywood continues to play the waiting game for their best movies. They are afraid to release catalog blockbusters because of potential low sales BUT that lack of high-calibre releases keeps people from coming off the adoption fence. It's a chicken or the egg scenario where hollywood doesn't want to see $5 bargain-bin Blu rays because of a flooded market when people start having players in high-quantity... but in the meantime they are missing sales from people who are waiting for super releases to make them jump.
The state of the economy isn't helping things out either... so that's a bit of unfortunate timing... but even with that, some decisions would have helped:
1. No war in the first place would have helped from the beginning (no HD DVD vs Blu ray to split the early adopters and splinter the market)
2. Entry level players from the beginning instead of all models starting at premium pricing.
3. Instead of multiple releases forcing consumers to choose DVD vs Blu (or HD DVD) and multiple Target/Best Buy/FEY editions... release one edition that includes Blu (or HD DVD back in the day) + DVD that has all the extras and everything in one package. Consumers who want the movie get everything... and once a few Blu movies are already in the home, the player purchase will follow.
4. Pick a few movies and don't release in anything but Blu. Especially useful for catalog, like the recent Godfather rework.. just release in Blu and not also DVD.. pick a few new releases and do the same thing. IF it backfires they could always release on DVD later.. but try and see what consumers would do if only Blu comes out.
5. Stagger release dates... Release Blu first, then DVD a few weeks later. The "I can't wait" crowd might go for Blu rather than wait.
Stuart Sweet
10-30-08, 02:26 PM
I agree with most of your points. However, high initial pricing didn't hurt DVD or VHS from eventually dominating the market.
I do think you'll find that there are some movies that have come out with a digital copy edition which includes a DVD-quality digital version, usually without the special features. Sure, HD-DVD was great because you could have a combo disc, but DVD mastering is cheap enough it's not a problem.
I do think there will be Blu-only releases in time, just as it took a while for DVD-only releases.
In the meantime, I don't know if there when true bargain BDs will come out, because unlike VHS vs. DVD you don't have to rebuy your whole collection. Only when BD mastering gets as cheap as DVD mastering will you see that, and then they'll probably be crap anyway :)
BattleZone
10-30-08, 02:41 PM
Blu-Ray is FAR from dead.
The real problem is that many people had false expectations for it; they assumed that it would grow as fast as DVD did (the fastest-adopted CE device in history). That just isn't realistic.
DVDs are NOT HD, but for a lot of folks who either don't have HDTVs or have HDTVs but no HD programming, DVDs look "great" compared to normal SDTV. For many of these people DVD is "good enough", just as many people used to say that VHS is "good enough" when DVD players were first released and DVDs were $30-35 for new releases.
Most people I know already own their favorite movies on DVD, and most families own 100-200 DVDs. They are going to be relutant to spend any more money on most of those movies, and honestly, many of them won't be any better in HD. Is Zoolander going to be any funnier in HD? Enough to justify the expense? No.
What WILL happen is that people will buy Blu-Rays for action, Sci-Fi, and horror/thriller movies, where HD makes the biggest visual and aural impact. They will re-buy Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and other classics action movies on Blu-Ray. They won't buy Steel Magnolias or Tootsie again, because the cost/benefit ratio isn't there.
But... once they have Blu-Ray, it's likely that they'll start buying NEW movies in Blu-Ray almost exclusively, even ones that aren't major action movies. This will be especially true when you can get these titles on sale, where the price isn't too far from DVD price.
The pace of Blu-Ray adoption is going to be slower, no doubt, but it will happen. And unlike VHS-to-DVD, all Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible with DVD, so again, there's less incentive to re-buy those non-blockbusters if you already have them on DVD.
The people who counted on HD to duplicate what DVD did for the industry were simply deluding themselves. Today, there are far too many alternatives (including DVD) for one product to make such an impact.
Steve Mehs
10-30-08, 02:44 PM
Wow, I wonder what this joker had to say about DVDs in 1998. BD is the future, player prices, burner prices, prerecorded media and blank media will all come down in price just like VHS Tapes and DVDs did. As more and more people get HDTVs and get second and third HDTVs, a Blu Ray Disc player would be the perfect compliment..
hdtvfan0001
10-30-08, 03:06 PM
ZDNet has been wrong on so many of these kinds of "predictions" before, you can't even take then seriously. :rolleyes:
In fact, adoption continues to grow....players will be sub $250 for the holiday season, and disks keep getting cheaper. The % of Blu Ray to regular disks are increasing, and with many, many new titles coming out during the next 8 weeks....this will be yet another ZDNet prediction folly.
and even the the downloadable media, you have to have something to output the HD movie show etc f to your TV, which means probably 95% or more of the people would have to upgrade to do that whether by computer which probably 90% can't show HD content let alone output it, some type of hardrive media etc
Doug Brott
10-30-08, 03:26 PM
Being a "lite" Movie Viewer (TV is more my thing), it will be a while before I get a BD player. But certainly I can see myself getting BD next. Heck, if the prices for the hardware drop low enough it would be a no-brainer to go ahead and jump in .. It's not like DVDs are going to live forever .. They too will be replaced just like Laser Discs.
I jumped into the forray of BD back when I bought my PS3, it was a selling point in convincing my wife :D, 2 for the price of 1
Stuart Sweet
10-30-08, 03:32 PM
A lot of people bought original playstations for the same reason.
While not quite the quality of Blue-ray, this recently announced (http://www.marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994) $159 Toshiba XDE (for extended definition) promises to be another shot at Sony's bow by extending the life of conventional DVDs a bit more. Be funny if the reported $500 million Sony paid Toshiba to drop HD DVD was used to develop this product. Besides some new image enhancement technology, it outputs up to 1080p at 24fps. /steve
phrelin
10-30-08, 03:39 PM
Blu-ray will survive. But because of Sony - the leader in music DRM screwups because it makes money on content - it'll take several years before these morons can get through a whole repeat of the music DRM experience in the video arena.
And I have a perfectly good "older" pre-HDMI, pre-1080p Panasonic 42" plasma that gives me a great picture from component input. It's going to be awhile before I change my DVD player.
Maybe when DRM-free MPEG4 videos are generally available to legally buy and download from Amazon just like MP3 tracks are today. I'll need to replace the plasma by then.
kevinwmsn
10-30-08, 03:44 PM
A lot of people bought original playstations for the same reason.
Don't you mean ps2 as a dvd player? I don't think that many people bought a ps1 for a cd player.
Santi360HD
10-30-08, 03:57 PM
My upconverting DVD player i got for $69.99 tell me again why i have to shell out $200+ for a BD player that may be obsolete or marked down later on??..My old dvd's (those in widescreen preferably THX) look fairly great at its upconverted rate (though nothing close to what Universal-HD or MGM HD channel does in their upconversions) even way older titles are adequate just dont fill the screen. I agree with the article on only 1 area..If you have a DVD player without HDMI or Red Green Blue ports yes your DVD's will look cruddy. Even though many of the DVD upconverting players recommend an HDMI port to enjoy the full proper upconvert, i didnt notice a difference when i did the upconvert and watched said movie via red/green/blue component cables. If you didnt know from my handle, I also have the XBOX360 from 2007 made in feb 2007 and it doesnt have an HDMI slot, (the newer one's going forward do now) my games look great with red/green/blue cables.
But its quality is adequate enough for me to handle. Even if Blu Ray players drop yes going forward i would go buying newer releases on BD and I will not go replacing each of my DVD titles, mainly becasue i dont want to..I'd have to evaluate what deserves a re-purchase in my collection. Blu ray movies also needs a price drop as well, I dont wanna feel like Im buying a video game each time. just my 2 cents
wakajawaka
10-30-08, 03:59 PM
Two things are hurting Blu-ray sales: high price of Blu-ray discs and upconverting DVD players. When people can buy widescreen DVD's for half the cost of Blu-ray product and play them back at near HD quality, why buy Blu-ray? The BDA is shooting itself in the foot by enforcing high prices in general.In retrospect, Hollywood's paranoia about copying killed HD DVD, which was a less expensive approach to high quality DVD's.
I'm seriously considering joining Netflix for obtaining movies for home viewing.
Upconverted DVD's look good, but they are no where close to HD.
If Blu-Ray becomes a niche market, I'm fine with that. I don't think it will though. Although I do agree that most people won't upgrade the majority of their DVD collection to Blu-Ray, I know I won't but for a few favorite gems (Like 2001, I have it on VHS, LaserDisc, DVD, and now Blu-Ray)
Santi360HD
10-30-08, 04:08 PM
if the HD-DVD Disc market ever opens up again, i still have my 360 HD DVD drive in the closet.. Then again in the 360 marketplace and the Netflix option coming up with the new dashboard and its titles will be downloadable IN HD...again...blu ray...WHAT??..huh?? err really?? will a 200 buck purchase be warrented over a downloadable option?
Santi360HD
10-30-08, 04:11 PM
Upconverted DVD's look good, but they are no where close to HD.
absolutely correct, but not enough to gouge my paycheck towards a BD player.....................yet :eek2:
As an early adopter of the HD-DVD format, I made my initial investment because of the cheaper cost for the HD-DVD player ($199), many free HD-DVD's, lower DVD costs, and the ability to upconvert my existing DVD's to 1080i. I was happy with the Toshiba and still use it.
I also recently made the jump to Blu-Ray because of a lowered player cost ($199 again) and the included ability to upconvert existing DVD's to 1080p. Like other posters here, I must admit that I have been much more frugal in purchasing Blu-Ray DVD's. I purchase very few and only when they are on sale.
Is the upconversion as good as Blu-Ray?....No. Is it pretty darn close?...Most definitely! But for some DVD's, Blu-Ray seems worth a LITTLE more to get that perfect clarity and sound.
Lowering Blu-Ray DVD costs is key to Blu-Ray survival/expansion. $30 is too much for any DVD.
Santi360HD
10-30-08, 04:58 PM
Is the upconversion as good as Blu-Ray?....No. Is it pretty darn close?...Most definitely! But for some DVD's, Blu-Ray seems worth a LITTLE more to get that perfect clarity and sound.
Lowering Blu-Ray DVD costs is key to Blu-Ray survival/expansion. $30 is too much for any DVD.
from your experience I will ask this question
and I'll benchmark the question with the following criteria
DVD's**
Gladiator / Transformers / or any of the Pirates of the carribean movies..Do any of these dvd's or in their timeframe release look any better upconverted in a blue ray player than that of a DVD player with upconversion?? Via HDMI of course..
Im PRETTY sure blu-ray copies of these movies would blow away any dvd..the overall question does a blu ray player handle upconversion better of a DVD than that of a DVD player with upconversion??
**(I'm talking a regular DVD player that does upconversion) and not per-say an HD DVD player, cause i dont own an HD-DVDplayer i mean..
Brandon428
10-30-08, 05:06 PM
Blu-ray will be here for a long time. The only thing that can replace Blu-ray is movies via internet and until we have ultra fast speeds across America that won't be a viable option. Until you can turn your tv on and be able to download a movie with 25+mbps bitrate instantly Blu-ray will remain on top. As for its competition against DVD it will last a little longer but inevitably Blu-ray will become the standard.
Stuart Sweet
10-30-08, 05:08 PM
Good question.
I tried some tests and this is purely subjective. I used Superman the Movie as my reference as I had it on BD, HD-DVD, and DVD. I didn't take screen shots as I didn't think they would do justice to my perceptions.
On my Lite-On DVD recorder, which outputs component 480p, the image was clear but sharply pixelated. The contrast was not great, because I've got my TV calibrated to HDTV's gamut, not the old SD gamut.
On my Toshiba upconverter (via HDMI), I saw real improvement. There was less pixelation and although the DVD was a little blurry, the contrast and saturation were improved.
On my Toshiba HD-DVD (playing a DVD) the picture was very similar to the Toshiba DVD player. There was better contrast but there was more block noise too.
On my Toshiba HD-DVD (playing an HD-DVD) the picture was even better. The colors were pure and crisp, although it seemed was grainier than the DVD player.
On my Sony Blu-Ray (playing a DVD) the results were the best for upconversion. It has three settings for noise reduction that really helped filter out block noise.
The overall winner was my Sony Blu-Ray (playing a BD). The colors weren't as bright but they looked more natural. The blacks seemed really really black, and the fleshtones made everyone look fresh and young.
So there you have it, all in my perception.
space86
10-30-08, 06:42 PM
Bluray looks better I have found.
spartanstew
10-30-08, 07:27 PM
I'm slowly starting to buy more BD movies - up to one a month now - but only for movies on sale and under $25. Most of them I've purchased have been $19.9 or were $25 and I used Reward Zone coupons to lower the price.
My limit is $15 (and reward zone coupons or gift cards don't count). I've purchased 12 Blu Rays since I got my PS3 last March and so far have been able to remain under a $15 average.
Bluray looks better I have found.
There's many factors involved with this. Yes, BluRay looks better. However, resolution, size and seating all come into play. If you're watching a 40" 1080p set from 8' or more away, the differences won't be as noticeable (and you won't notice at all on a 720p set of equal size and distance). Even with my 126" screen, the differences between BluRay and SD DVD aren't huge, mainly because my PJ is only 720p and my Pio Elite DVD player does an incredible job of upconverting. There's a huge difference on my 65" 1080p display in my living room when viewed from 10', however.
oscartheclimber
10-30-08, 10:13 PM
BD is here to stay until the next great technology - possibly xstreamHD - if they ever get their act together.
It would be interesting to see what growth netflix is seeing in BD rentals. They just started charging $1/month more for BD.
spartanstew
10-30-08, 10:23 PM
BD is here to stay until the next great technology - possibly xstreamHD - if they ever get their act together.
Being here to stay and a success are two different things. I don't think Blu Ray will ever replace DVD (like DVD replaced VHS). Too many people don't/won't/can't see the difference on their displays and aren't about to buy a BD player to replace their DVD player which works perfectly fine. Not to mention the cost of the disc themselves at the current $30+ price point for new releases.
Those of us that enjoy BluRay will have it available for a long time, but I'd be surprised if it ever outsells SD DVD.
Mavrick
10-31-08, 06:33 AM
Being here to stay and a success are two different things. I don't think Blu Ray will ever replace DVD (like DVD replaced VHS). Too many people don't/won't/can't see the difference on their displays and aren't about to buy a BD player to replace their DVD player which works perfectly fine. Not to mention the cost of the disc themselves at the current $30+ price point for new releases.
Those of us that enjoy BluRay will have it available for a long time, but I'd be surprised if it ever outsells SD DVD.
Yes unless the Studios one day stop releasing new movies on DVD and the only way you could get them is on Blu then I could see it replacing DVD the way that DVD has replaced VHS.
For I know several people that was still buying movies on VHS up until recently when the studios stopped selling new movies on VHS for they said that VHS worked fine for them and they had no need for DVD.
Capmeister
10-31-08, 07:21 AM
from your experience I will ask this question
and I'll benchmark the question with the following criteria
DVD's**
Gladiator / Transformers / or any of the Pirates of the carribean movies..Do any of these dvd's or in their timeframe release look any better upconverted in a blue ray player than that of a DVD player with upconversion?? Via HDMI of course..
Im PRETTY sure blu-ray copies of these movies would blow away any dvd..the overall question does a blu ray player handle upconversion better of a DVD than that of a DVD player with upconversion??
**(I'm talking a regular DVD player that does upconversion) and not per-say an HD DVD player, cause i dont own an HD-DVDplayer i mean..
My PS3 upconverts DVDs better than my DVD-upconvert player, I think.
pete4192
10-31-08, 07:51 AM
I'm still pro-HD DVD....and still going to write in Ron Paul!
Santi360HD
10-31-08, 10:12 AM
Thanks Stuart & Capmeister, BD player on deck for purcahse as far as I'm concerned..Hopefully I'll have some christmas bonus to use towards a BD player or PS3..Just dont see myself getting a PS3 ontop of my 360..and the arguement then comes..well why pay a high 200 bucks for a BD player just get a PS3 for about 100$ more..
good arguement but I only see a few PS3 titles making their way in my racks as purchase, love my 360 and my library will always be larger than PS3..The list would be too long for me to list my 360 titles and this isnt a game forum blog..But since my PS3 list is short if i did get PS3 over a stand alone BD player, the Metal Gear Solid , Resistance both titles, for now would be the sole titles i'd drop dollars on. and i dont justify that drop of dollars for a console i'd only be playing a few titles on..and correct me if im wrong Metal Gear along with one other game i cannot pinpoint are the only games to date made on BD media right?
Ps3 came out in 2006 a year after 360 in 2005 and PS3 aint fully utilizing the Blu Ray perks on their titles fully????? whats the hold up?? isnt Blu Ray the direction?? as long as SD DVD media is around the Xbox will prosper and not close up shop despite their flat no on a BD external drive time & time again (we'll see how long Microsoft stands pat on that), GAME Develepors wont close up shop and run to program on BD Discs in a panic, and the new Wii model forth coming down the line that'll read dvd layer let alone play dvd's shows me that Blu Ray hasnt arrived yet to its own party.
tough decsision guys, but I always value the input from this site, thanks again fellas...
DCSholtis
10-31-08, 10:46 AM
I'm still pro-HD DVD....and still going to write in Ron Paul!
Pro HD DVD here as well, although I do have and enjoy my LG BH200 combo player.
from your experience I will ask this question
and I'll benchmark the question with the following criteria
DVD's**
Gladiator / Transformers / or any of the Pirates of the carribean movies..Do any of these dvd's or in their timeframe release look any better upconverted in a blue ray player than that of a DVD player with upconversion?? Via HDMI of course..
Im PRETTY sure blu-ray copies of these movies would blow away any dvd..the overall question does a blu ray player handle upconversion better of a DVD than that of a DVD player with upconversion??
**(I'm talking a regular DVD player that does upconversion) and not per-say an HD DVD player, cause i dont own an HD-DVDplayer i mean..
I have both a Sony 1080p upconverting DVD player along with a Panny Blu-Ray, and the Toshiba HD-DVD player. The upconversion on the Sony is about equal to both the Panny Blu-Ray and the Toshiba 1080i (IMHO). I have tested all players on both a Samsung 46" LCD and a Samsung 67" LED DLP. I agree that this is very subjective, but I find the upconverted picture quality to be very good to excellent from all the players. The Blu-Ray picture quality and sound are superb. It comes down to each viewer's taste as to what is a high quality picture. For myself, I enjoy watching Star Wars, Gladiator etc. upconverted on a 67" screen. The picture is not Blu-Ray quality but it sure looks darn good and provides a great viewing experience for DVD's not yet available on Blu-Ray (or too costly).
hdtvfan0001
10-31-08, 11:04 AM
I have both a Sony 1080p upconverting DVD player along with a Panny Blu-Ray, and the Toshiba HD-DVD player. The upconversion on the Sony is about equal to both the Panny Blu-Ray and the Toshiba 1080i (IMHO). I also have all 3, and respectfully disagree completely with your observations. Upconverting does a nice job overall, but not even close to HD.
What determines the real impact is the size of the display...the larger it is, the more you see the differences. As people adopt larger displays, the more they can see the disparity.
In my case, it is blatently obvious that the HD DVD and Blu ray presentations of the exact same movies in those formats are quite different on a 60" or larger display (Transformers is a good example). They may be less different on a 42" or smaller display. I'll give ya that one.
In any case, those of us who see HD movies regularly on 60" or larger displays (I also view them on a 116" diag. screen from an HD projector in my Home Theater) can immediately see the difference and also appreciate the improved imagery (and audio) in the HD DVD or Blu Ray formats.
Capmeister
10-31-08, 11:20 AM
good arguement but I only see a few PS3 titles making their way in my racks as purchase, love my 360 and my library will always be larger than PS3..
My brother lived with me and had a 360 so I opted to try the PS3 for myself, and mainly for blu-ray. Because the 360 was not HDMI, I found the look of the PS3 games better, and so I am not bothering getting a 360 (since most games are cross platform) now that my brother moved.
I also have all 3, and respectfully disagree completely with your observations. Upconverting does a nice job overall, but not even close to HD.
What determines the real impact is the size of the display...the larger it is, the more you see the differences. As people adopt larger displays, the more they can see the disparity.
In my case, it is blatently obvious that the HD DVD and Blu ray presentations of the exact same movies in those formats are quite different on a 60" or larger display (Transformers is a good example). They may be less different on a 42" or smaller display. I'll give ya that one.
In any case, those of us who see HD movies regularly on 60" or larger displays (I also view them on a 116" diag. screen from an HD projector in my Home Theater) can immediately see the difference and also appreciate the improved imagery (and audio) in the HD DVD or Blu Ray formats.
Badly worded on my part. I was replying to the previous post asking about upconversion on a regular DVD player vs the Blu-Ray upconversion and the HD DVD upconversion. Fully agree that upconverted is NOT Blu-Ray or HD DVD quality. But when upconversion is all that is available, I have personally been very happy with viewing upconverted DVD's on a 60+ set. As I mentioned, I have found little difference in the upconversion on the 3 units regardless of screen size. As for Blu-Ray vs upconverted, again concur that the larger the screen the more noticeable the PQ variances. I wish all my favorites were available on Blu-Ray (at a reasonable cost). Until then, upconvert is the name of the game for me.
Santi360HD
10-31-08, 11:29 AM
My brother lived with me and had a 360 so I opted to try the PS3 for myself, and mainly for blu-ray. Because the 360 was not HDMI, I found the look of the PS3 games better, and so I am not bothering getting a 360 (since most games are cross platform) now that my brother moved.
I hear ya, im in the same boat with no HDMI on my current 360..however the newer ones going forward now have hdmi..so If i ever get the RROD on 360 and its not likely with my model since I am per my serial# a 2007 batch (but then again ya never know) the newer models have HDMI now.
pic enclosed, if that day comes and i hope it NEVER does a newer $199 XBOX360 will be and does indeed have HDMI..amen !:lol:
By the way, I got the last of the 2007 batch without HDMI..sigh!!!!
Stewart Vernon
10-31-08, 12:39 PM
Keeping in mind that I'm not bashing Blu (never did) and now have a combo player and am buying new Blu movies...
VHS competed against Beta, but one of those formats had to win since there really was no other consumer alternative.
DVD competed against VHS, and had several vast improvements: Improved picture & audio, replayability without degradation, smaller footprint for the media, no more rewinding, etc.
HD DVD and then Blu ray offer improved picture and audio quality again + some interactive options... but to the average consumer this does not equate to a major leap above what they have with a much cheaper DVD player + much cheaper DVD format movies.
I wanted HD, so I bought... So have lots of consumers... but to get the average Joe to buy in then one of two things has to be true: Either WAY WAY better experience to justify the much higher entry cost + much higher cost per movie OR price has to come down.
That's just basic economics. The early adopters and gadget freaks like many on forums like this, we will always buy in when the price is still higher rather than waiting around... but we alone don't support the industry.
hdtvfan0001
10-31-08, 08:19 PM
The early adopters and gadget freaks like many on forums like this, we will always buy in when the price is still higher rather than waiting around... but we alone don't support the industry.
True...it only seems that way.... :D
LarryFlowers
11-01-08, 08:13 AM
I disagree as well.. BluRay won the battle but lost the war... Sony has never been smart about this stuff.
High Definition Movies will be delivered in other ways, Blu Ray will survive for awhile, but will never acheive anything close to the level of current DVD use. If I were trying to make BluRay the defacto standard and the delivery system of the future, as soon as HD died, I would have put $140 BluRay players all over the place. I would have gone to the Studios and proposed a plan using some kind of sliding royalty scale that based licensing fees on how many library titles they put out in relation to current movies.. the more catalog, the lower the license fees.
Then I would have waged a massive campaign to demo product in every big box store across the country to show how much better the BluRay movie looked when compared to the upconverted DVD. I would have cut deals with every High Def TV manufacturer.
But then we are talking about Sony, whose arrogance knows no bounds. They are also the company who has lost far more format wars than they have won. Just a few examples: (not to mention Betamax)
Mini-Disc (1991)--custom disc format, and used ATRAC audio compression, which is proprietary.
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (1993)--a competitor to the Dolby Digital 5.1 standard.
Multi-Media Compact Disc (1994)--Sony's proprietary format for high-density optical storage, developed in conjunction with Phillips. Negotiations merged this format and Toshiba's Super Density disc format into what would become DVD.
Music Clip (1999)--Sony's first digital player, used ATRAC audio compression.
HiFD (1998)--a competitor to Iomega's Zip drive.
Memory Stick (1998)--proprietary memory device as a competitor to SD and Flash memory.
Super Audio CD (1999)--an optical disc format with higher fidelity than the CD.
PSP (2004)--Uses Universal Media Disc (UMD) media, a proprietary media format.
Unless you're like me and have FTTH (Fiber To The House), you just can't get enough bandwidth for a true, full, high-bit-rate HD experience downloaded to you. Add to that the fact that Comcast wants to surcharge you after the equivalent of LESS THAN ONE BLU-RAY DISC's worth of bandwidth per month, with other cable companies greedily looking to see how THAT works out - and you can see where Blu-Ray fits in all this.
The original article was written by a DATA STORAGE guy, not a HOME THEATER guy.
Now, I've been in the computing business for 30 years and, yes, I'm looking forward to streaming Netflix movies when I buy my widescreen - but that'll be for casual use only (like the other night when I discovered my DVD of Top Secret was not in it's case and couldn't find it). Having just gone through a divorce and basically given all but a few of my 250+ disc DVD collection to my wife, I'm very picky about what I'll buy in Blu-Ray. But there's no way that I would stream "Planet Earth" versus having it in BR. the only BR player I have is in the laptop I'm writing this message on, but I already have 9 BR titles (usually pick them up on sale from Amazon) that I want to see when I get that 42-52" screen.
Will I buy a BR of Top Secret? Probably not - I think a Netflix stream of that would be just fine. But when Lord of the Rings comes out in BR? You can bet your bottom dollar I'll be buying that.
bsprague
11-01-08, 09:44 AM
BluRay won't die for awhile. But it will die.
With 300,000,000 people in the USA, some will always have some discretionary money to spend on high quality. They may choose a day of skiing with the grandkids, going out to dinner with some friends, going the theater, attending a concert, buying SeaHawks tickets,etc. Some will buy a BD player.
There are enough like me that will spend a couple hundred bucks on player and sign up for NetFlix because, for awhile, it will offer the widest choice of the highest quality movies. For me and those like me, it is a better experience than going to a movie theater!
Yet, like all consumer electronics, I plan on replacing it and will (slowly) shop for what the next best device or method will be. My guess is that it will come after Internet bandwidth improves.
Steve615
11-01-08, 01:32 PM
Another article in regards to Blu-ray.
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/108657
BattleZone
11-01-08, 02:07 PM
Those of us that enjoy BluRay will have it available for a long time, but I'd be surprised if it ever outsells SD DVD.
That isn't a necessary metric for "success".
Again, DVD is the single most successful consumer electronics invention in history, considering its rapid growth and huge amount of yearly sales. Compared to the video formats before it, it was a huge leap forward.
Anyone who is expecting Blu-Ray to have that sort of impact is delusional. Blu-Ray is a couple of steps forward (HD video, HD audio, interactivity), but not the huge leap that DVD was over VHS. And DVD had the advantage of being fully compatible with 70 years worth of TV production, which meant hundreds of millions of TVs.
Blu-Ray requires an HDTV to see any real advantage, and only a couple million have been sold so far; no where near the penetration of SDTVs, which had decades of sales.
IMO, Blu-Ray is doing just fine; it's the wildly optimistic expectations/assumptions that some folks have made that are the problem.
GrumpyBear
11-01-08, 02:28 PM
Is Blu-Ray going to DIE? I don't think so. Granted the Thrust of the Article was the Death of Blu-Ray as a device for the Mass's, and it just being for the VidioPHiles.
HDMI will be the downfall of BD's. You had almost 3 yrs of HDTV sales without HDMI, or only 1 HDMI input. You plan on telling ALL Those Avg Joe's that wont see a HUGE difference between upconversion vs Blu-Ray, that they now just a few yrs after shelling out 2k for a tv, they need to buy another 2k TV set. That just wont happen.
Blu-Ray wont die, as its headed up by Sony, and you could buy a NEW beta max back in 2003. Sony over and over and over again ignores defeat and keeps right on selling useless formats.
I don't think Streaming media will be the replacement either. You can't take it on the road, to many people DO NOT have highspeed internet.
4-8TB harddives, and 30gb flash drives are right around the corner. People are already using extranal drives for all sorts of video and Audio storage. More and more companies understand that extrenal HD's are addon's not replacements for a device's internal drive, and are registered to a user/client and not married to a device. Portablity and ease of use will be important to the AVG Joe, not the videophile.
spartanstew
11-01-08, 02:37 PM
Anyone who is expecting Blu-Ray to have that sort of impact is delusional.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim it'll have that type of impact. However, I think if you ask most of the people involved with Blu-Ray, they're at least thinking that some year Blu Ray sales will be equal to SD-DVD (which is basically what my statment was about).
hdtvfan0001
11-01-08, 04:14 PM
Anyone who is expecting Blu-Ray to have that sort of impact is delusional. Blu-Ray is a couple of steps forward (HD video, HD audio, interactivity), but not the huge leap that DVD was over VHS.
I guess the same folks were dilusional when DVD took almost 2 years to begin mainstream adoption to the level of about 15% of marketshare (where Blu Ray happens to be now). :rolleyes:
If you could see what media suppliers are planning for the next 12 months in terms of inventories.....you'd see spartanstew is right on target...
I think if you ask most of the people involved with Blu-Ray, they're at least thinking that some year Blu Ray sales will be equal to SD-DVD (which is basically what my statment was about).
That year for 50% is expected to be 2010, with a 35% share on Blu Ray at the end of 2009...
It's all about getting the players and extensive titles out there (at a reasonable price)....that process will begin the day after Thanksgiving.
Today, I just saw 9 different well-known titles on Blu Ray today at $13.99 and another 6 at $14.99 at Fry's. Amazon has had some titles as low as $10.00.
Players now average as low as $199 (and will be even lower on Black Friday) up to about $399, with $249 players commonplace now (and more sub-$200 players by year end).
Its about content availability and price. Major impact actions (tons of titles on sale and players as well) are already starting to take place on both fronts.
Skeptics...brace yourselves...you're about to be shown the door.
Steve615
11-02-08, 12:11 AM
Interesting Blu-ray notes/numbers from Variety.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117995103.html?categoryid=1019&cs=1
hdtvfan0001
11-02-08, 11:22 AM
Interesting Blu-ray notes/numbers from Variety.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117995103.html?categoryid=1019&cs=1
Thanks for sharing...yes...this points out the economic conditions are the major factor is slower-than-projected adoption. No surprise there.
That said....I'm interested in seeing the numbers after this holiday season, wehen another 130+ new titles have been released on Blue Ray, and sub-$250 BD players are everywhere....
If the activity the past 2 weeks in my local BB and CC are any indication....Blu Ray will be making a major dent into holiday spending this year.
Just as a point of reference....I was an early adopter and continue to be a bigger fan of HD DVD, over Blu Ray. Only recently did I make the change over to BD, succumbing to the Hollywood-driven choice for that format.
Now that BD players have finally gotten to the point where HD DVD was a year ago, both formats have equal footing in terms of audio and video quality. With the reduced prices on players and BD movies (I've seen them at Fry's for as low as $11.99 on well-known titles, and often at $13.99), the volumes of sales have been slowly but steadily growing, even with this slow economy.
The end of the article sums thing up pretty nicely from an industry marketing standpoint:
"If you look at the way our business works, 10% of the consumers represent over half the buys," notes Kornblau. "If we get just 5% or 6% penetration and they're all heavy buyers, that could mean 20%-25% of our business become Blu-ray."
hdtvfan0001
11-02-08, 07:04 PM
The end of the article sums thing up pretty nicely from an industry marketing standpoint:
"If you look at the way our business works, 10% of the consumers represent over half the buys," notes Kornblau. "If we get just 5% or 6% penetration and they're all heavy buyers, that could mean 20%-25% of our business become Blu-ray."
Yup...the 80% rule usually applies to most anything...
20% of the people buy 80% of the product.... :D
Steve615
11-11-08, 02:08 PM
Well,we now have the Blu-ray,HD DVD and DVD player bases covered.
I bought an LG BH 200 player at Best Buy last Sun. night for $215,taxes included in the price.
It also came with a 2 year extended warranty from BB,included in that price point. :)
BattleZone
11-11-08, 05:48 PM
I guess the same folks were dilusional when DVD took almost 2 years to begin mainstream adoption to the level of about 15% of marketshare (where Blu Ray happens to be now). :rolleyes:
We're agreeing here. I'm saying that Blu-Ray is doing fine. I expect it to EQUAL the current sales figures of DVDs within 2-3 years, meaning, say Q1 2011 sales will be half DVD and half Blu-Ray.
But... what I'm saying is that anyone who expected Blu-Ray to match the peak sales volume of DVDs is delusional. That isn't a fair metric to use, as DVDs broke all kinds of records for consumer media sales. You can expect every other generation to match or beat that. It would be like expecting every Olympic athlete to beat the previous world record.
Anyway, Blu-Ray is doing fine, and is not that far behind the adoption rate that DVD was at this point into its life. Sure, the economy and other issues are affecting things, but all things considered, there's not a whole lot to worry about.
TechnoCat
11-11-08, 07:15 PM
My biggest reason for not having a BluRay player is that they all suck. Not at rendering the movie, but at operational speed. They're just painfully slow to use. Couple that with having an excellent (and expensive) upverting Denon DVD player and a 720p-ish plasma (rather than 1080p), and any differences would probably be essentially invisible and not worth the interface annoyance.
But still, some other posts need response.
Wow, I wonder what this joker had to say about DVDs in 1998.DVDs took off extremely quickly. BluRay hasn't.
Is Blu-Ray going to DIE? I don't think so. Granted the Thrust of the Article was the Death of Blu-Ray as a device for the Mass's, and it just being for the VidioPHiles.That's a kind-of pointless distinction. You can still buy minidisc in England. I still own (and have hooked up) a laserdisc player. Niche is dead.
I guess the same folks were dilusional when DVD took almost 2 years to begin mainstream adoption to the level of about 15% of marketshare (where Blu Ray happens to be now). This is, of course, completely false. In the first year of DVD players, they sold more movies than BluRay has in two years. Without the PlayStation (a hideously-behind third-place also-ran in the console wars, to be fair) to help sales. And you have to ignore the insiders to have your perspective.
Samsung UK's Director states he thinks BluRay will be dead in 5 years. (link) (http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/17399/18423/samsung-blu-ray-5-years-left.phtml)
So you claim BluRay is at 15%? See this quote (link) (http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/11/06/new-blu-ray-format-in-a-death-spiral/):
The Blu-ray Disc Association has tried to counter the grim outlook by pointing out that the Blu-ray version of the hit movie Iron Man sold more than 500,000 copies in its first week, topping all other Blu-ray titles this year. But during the same period, consumers also snapped up 7.2 million copies of the regular DVD version.
Now that's the same movie. Just for the weak-of-math, 500K/7.2M is under 7%. Less than half of what HDTVFan would expect.
Further, if you remember January's CES when the BluRay victory happened, they expected $1 BILLION in "software" (disc) sales. Through Q3 they'd only done $300M. Nobody believes they can make that difference up. And that was before the economic crisis hit.
I don't really think BluRay will die, but it sure isn't doing well.
Blu-ray is alive and well in my world. There's some great titles coming out in the next several months and the prices have been falling nicely on the players. Now the movie prices need to fall further to help boost sales. They do have a budget line at Costco now for $12.99...
paulman182
11-12-08, 06:27 AM
I guess by now you've all seen the push Wal-Mart is making for Blu-Ray.
It's hard to imagine the format will really "fail."
FWIW, Blu-ray's market share was 8% a little over 6 weeks ago, according to this (http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray_market_share_creeps_up_or_down_to_8_percent/1222372337) story. /steve
hdtvfan0001
11-12-08, 02:15 PM
I guess by now you've all seen the push Wal-Mart is making for Blu-Ray.
It's hard to imagine the format will really "fail."
...and Amazon....and Best Buy....and Fry's....and.....
The Putz who wrote that ZDNet piece is out of touch with reality, and its not the first or second time they go their "views" wrong....
They were totally off base when they originally reported, prior to its release, "based on the costs of the new iPhone, adoption will be slow and perhaps not even successful at all".
Think Blu-ray players are too expensive? The highly-regarded and rave-reviewed Sony BDP-S350 can be bought at SonyStyle.com for $200 if you take advantage of their offer of $100 off for using a Sony Visa card. (And no interest for 12 months on the first purchase using the card.) Up until a week and a half ago it was $150 off. The amount varies between $100 and $150, changing every month or two. There have been at least two $150 periods in the last few months.
I bought an S350 at SonyStyle.com (net $150) even though I have no Blu-ray discs and don't plan to buy any. I wouldn't buy any even if they cost the same as DVDs. Who needs to see the same movie over and over? I'll be renting from Blockbuster (and/or maybe Redbox, if and when they extend their test-marketing of Blu-ray discs to Minnesota). No Netflix.
Stuart Sweet
11-12-08, 03:10 PM
Yes, and the same Sony player can be bought between $149 and $179 on Black Friday, if the internet is to be believed. Even in this economy that's a very compelling price point.
TechnoCat
11-12-08, 04:00 PM
But then again, price isn't a big factor for me. I have a Panasonic plasma (bought before the price chops), Denon 3808ci, Denon 2910 DVD player, multiple Buttkicker tactile transducers, DefTech bi-polar towers, etc. I don't go cheap.
The problem for me is that the BluRay systems are hideously slow to power up and use.
Stuart Sweet
11-12-08, 04:04 PM
The Sony BDP-S350 in quick start mode starts in under 5 seconds. I kid you not.
TechnoCat
11-12-08, 07:02 PM
It shouldn't need a quick start mode. What does it waste time doing in sloth-like start mode? C/Net implies that it isn't actually turning off when in the suspend mode that allows for Quick Start; it uses more than half as much power suspended as full-on, which is more than 18 times as much as when off. ... And then the movies they tested took from 27 seconds to over 2 minutes to start! That's not "fast".
Less important, but still telling me they're a brick short... The Sony also needs added memory (USB Stick) to actually perform some Blu-Ray features, it can't use the included Ethernet for streaming, it failed their "Video Resolution Loss Test" and had a few other rendering flaws.
They may have improved the apparent power-cycle performance (by lying about whether it's off at all), but I don't want to wait half-a-minute to over two just to load a disc!
bsprague
11-12-08, 08:27 PM
I bought a Panasonic DMP BD30. I'm sitting on the couch with my 6 year old granddaughter sharing a Harry Potter DVD. The up-converted picture is exceptionally clear. I like it a lot! It does not take so long to turn on that it ruins the experience. Rented (Netflix) videos are even better with a more brilliant picture.
There is no doubt that downloading high quality movies is coming. But it may take awhile before there are enough HD junkies and enough consumer focused bandwidth to support the project.
No, I don't buy many BD disks. Only one so far is the Polar Express in 3-D with the funny colored cardboard glasses.
In the meantime, I'm happy to enjoy Blu-Ray.
hdtvfan0001
11-13-08, 09:24 AM
It shouldn't need a quick start mode. What does it waste time doing in sloth-like start mode? C/Net implies that it isn't actually turning off when in the suspend mode that allows for Quick Start; it uses more than half as much power suspended as full-on, which is more than 18 times as much as when off. ... And then the movies they tested took from 27 seconds to over 2 minutes to start! That's not "fast".
Less important, but still telling me they're a brick short... The Sony also needs added memory (USB Stick) to actually perform some Blu-Ray features, it can't use the included Ethernet for streaming, it failed their "Video Resolution Loss Test" and had a few other rendering flaws.
They may have improved the apparent power-cycle performance (by lying about whether it's off at all), but I don't want to wait half-a-minute to over two just to load a disc!
I'm not sure I understand your expectations....as with the current quick-load....why should it matter how they do it?
In any case, side by side....the current generation Blu Ray players do an outstanding job. As for streaming...the jury is very much out as to both the reliability, viability, and mainstream acceptance of that delivery channel.
If players continue to be available sub $200, and disks down now regularly below $20....their lifespan will be solid.
As for the memory stick requirement - that's one technology that hasn't even been accepted mainstream period.
In short - to each his own.
TechnoCat
11-13-08, 10:20 AM
I'm not sure I understand your expectations....as with the current quick-load....why should it matter how they do it?Because that doesn't do it at all. People are pushing to eliminate energy vampires, it will be slow when turned on after a hard power-cycle (outage, power strip), and it doesn't speed up the loading of the DVD to normal DVD player levels.
If players continue to be available sub $200, and disks down now regularly below $20....their lifespan will be solid. ... In short - to each his own.I agree that at sub-$200 levels, and if movie prices drop, it will do well. We're not there yet in either category. But "To each his own" is pablum; "each" have spoken and so far BluRay is failing. You can't survive on your own. Do you have any other incorrect-and-meaningless aphorisms to offer? :bang
paulman182
11-13-08, 10:23 AM
...and Amazon....and Best Buy....and Fry's....and.....
Right, all those stores are pushing the format big-time.
The difference is, Mr. and Mrs. Joe Average will see the players and movies a few times a week at Wal-Mart, instead of having to go looking for them.
Wal-Mart and Radio Shack would be the only stores in my small town where you could see a Blu-Ray machine, and there's sure not much traffic in the RS.
The Wal-Mart connection is important for acceptance of any new electronics by the general populace.
hdtvfan0001
11-13-08, 03:06 PM
Right, all those stores are pushing the format big-time.
The difference is, Mr. and Mrs. Joe Average will see the players and movies a few times a week at Wal-Mart, instead of having to go looking for them.
Wal-Mart and Radio Shack would be the only stores in my small town where you could see a Blu-Ray machine, and there's sure not much traffic in the RS.
The Wal-Mart connection is important for acceptance of any new electronics by the general populace.
Walmarts in my area are setting up major displays right now for Blu Ray, as well as promoting the disks...
As for Radio Shack.....they're not much of a technology driver of anything anyway.
Part of the slow adoption of Blu-ray could simply be a sign of the times.
With the proliferation of DVR's, VOD and PPV selections over the past couple of years, folks now have more and more on-demand programming to watch in the home on rainy days, and less need to pop a DVD in. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that even conventional DVD player and disk sales and rentals have tailed off as a result, and not just Blu-ray.
/steve
wilbur_the_goose
11-16-08, 07:28 AM
If you need proof of the qualty of BluRay, just get the new Police concert DVD. This disc is simply stunning
mystic7
11-16-08, 07:52 AM
I think the last time I've been to ZDNet was when they were touting the revolutionary use of tables in HTML coding.
I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of us who paid $299 or more for HD-DVD players who will NOT buy a BluRay player until they come down to $125.00 or less. Just for the principle. Add the fact that a lot of us bought the first five Harry Potter movies in HD-DVD and will have to buy a BluRay player to complete the set in HD, and that just adds to the aggravation.
bigmac94
11-16-08, 08:22 AM
Good question.
I tried some tests and this is purely subjective. I used Superman the Movie as my reference as I had it on BD, HD-DVD, and DVD. I didn't take screen shots as I didn't think they would do justice to my perceptions.
On my Lite-On DVD recorder, which outputs component 480p, the image was clear but sharply pixelated. The contrast was not great, because I've got my TV calibrated to HDTV's gamut, not the old SD gamut.
On my Toshiba upconverter (via HDMI), I saw real improvement. There was less pixelation and although the DVD was a little blurry, the contrast and saturation were improved.
On my Toshiba HD-DVD (playing a DVD) the picture was very similar to the Toshiba DVD player. There was better contrast but there was more block noise too.
On my Toshiba HD-DVD (playing an HD-DVD) the picture was even better. The colors were pure and crisp, although it seemed was grainier than the DVD player.
On my Sony Blu-Ray (playing a DVD) the results were the best for upconversion. It has three settings for noise reduction that really helped filter out block noise.
The overall winner was my Sony Blu-Ray (playing a BD). The colors weren't as bright but they looked more natural. The blacks seemed really really black, and the fleshtones made everyone look fresh and young.
So there you have it, all in my perception.
The Shadow Knows....
There you have it,if you were to take a Blu-ray Player hooked up to HDMI for upconversion and play a Blu Ray disk of any movie,and also play a DVD of the same movie you will see a difference... Using the same Movie to test, Blu-Ray will knock your socks off!
However all of your Collection of DVDs will be Inhansed by playing them in Blu-Ray Player with HDMI and all is still good to go.
One thing remains constant,Your choice of Hi-Def TV.
GrumpyBear
11-16-08, 01:47 PM
Its not just Zdnet that is talking about this. The Economy will be the final stray to break the camels(Blu-Ray) back. Its not just the price of the players and the movies, lots of people who just bought a 2k dollar TV just a few years ago, wont spend that same kind of money again to buy a NEW TV, just so they can use a BD as thier TV's don't have HDMI. HDMI and the demand that ONLY HDMI be used, and this economy, will do just what all the articles are talking about, turn BD into a Videophile device. Sony and its Holy Grail PS3 Blu-Ray player, still haven't been able to take over 2nd place in the 3 headed race for game systems, they can't drop the price on the PS3, and will continue to lose out to the Avg Joe. Now the Videophile, who could careless about the PS3, they wont care, what happens, and will say oh well when it ends up being replaced in just a few yrs.
clyde sauls
11-16-08, 04:16 PM
I dont think blu-ray will die. Just like all technologies the prices are higher at first. Now that the prices are coming down and more people do have hdtvs. As long as there is netflix and blockbuster to rent them. I wouldnt doubt that blu-ray will take over the dvd market. I know I hardly ever buy a dvd or blu ray disc. Usually just rent from netflix or blockbuster.
I don't see BluRay dying off anytime soon...I want hard copies of my movies...so this Christmas we're getting a BluRay player and 20+ movies...and I can't wait! I know several folks doing similar things this season. It will be the year BluRay takes off...
Mark Holtz
11-16-08, 09:12 PM
As a signal of my surrender, I did pick up the BluRay version of Sleeping Beauty today. It did come with a DVD version of the movie.
But, what movies in my collection are worth a rebuy on the Blu format? Not too many.
Seen the Woot.com deal-of-the-day today?
Getteau
11-17-08, 07:00 PM
Seen the Woot.com deal-of-the-day today?
Yep. Wasted most of the morning trying to find good/bad reviews of the player (never found either). In the end, I just bit the bullet and bought one. Here's hoping I didn't just waste $155 ($139 + $5 shipping + 11 for tax).
They still have them in stock, so I'd expect to see them on the next woot-off as well.
hdtvfan0001
11-17-08, 08:41 PM
Yep. Wasted most of the morning trying to find good/bad reviews of the player (never found either). In the end, I just bit the bullet and bought one. Here's hoping I didn't just waste $155 ($139 + $5 shipping + 11 for tax).
They still have them in stock, so I'd expect to see them on the next woot-off as well.
At that price, for a Profile 1.1 unit, if it has no flaws.....you should be very happy to enjoy it at such a bargain.
Charise
11-17-08, 10:23 PM
I'm one of those people who isn't interested in BD. Where DVDs quickly got to the point that you could play them in every computer, in portable players, and in a home theatre situation, BD isn't there. For me, whatever the price point, it's not worth upgrading all of my other players.
I primarily watch only HD TV, but I believe that many consumers buy their expensive HD TVs and believe they are automatically watching HD. Their regular DVDs look better to them than TV, so that's all they expect and want.
Other than the improved picture quality which I would enjoy particularly on some shows, the added expense of BD offers me much less in portability. I don't think BD is dead, but I think I'm fairly typical of regular (obviously not early adopter) consumers.
hdtvfan0001
11-18-08, 01:55 PM
I know one thing after getting and viewing my WALL*E Blue Ray disk today....
Blu Ray is very much alive and kicking (butt).
What a spectacular video and audio "experience". :jumpingja :balloons:
elaclair
11-19-08, 08:33 PM
I think it's significant to note that, even with the down economy, a protracted format war, fairly slow adoption by the movie studios, standard DVD's that look great up-converted, that Blu-Ray is AHEAD of the original DVD adoption curve. With the now sub $150 players, and occasional good deals on movie prices, BD ain't goin' nowhere for a LONG time.
Pink Fairy
11-19-08, 09:13 PM
Blu-Ray is FAR from dead.
The real problem is that many people had false expectations for it; they assumed that it would grow as fast as DVD did (the fastest-adopted CE device in history). That just isn't realistic.
DVDs are NOT HD, but for a lot of folks who either don't have HDTVs or have HDTVs but no HD programming, DVDs look "great" compared to normal SDTV. For many of these people DVD is "good enough", just as many people used to say that VHS is "good enough" when DVD players were first released and DVDs were $30-35 for new releases.
Most people I know already own their favorite movies on DVD, and most families own 100-200 DVDs. They are going to be relutant to spend any more money on most of those movies, and honestly, many of them won't be any better in HD. Is Zoolander going to be any funnier in HD? Enough to justify the expense? No.
What WILL happen is that people will buy Blu-Rays for action, Sci-Fi, and horror/thriller movies, where HD makes the biggest visual and aural impact. They will re-buy Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and other classics action movies on Blu-Ray. They won't buy Steel Magnolias or Tootsie again, because the cost/benefit ratio isn't there.
But... once they have Blu-Ray, it's likely that they'll start buying NEW movies in Blu-Ray almost exclusively, even ones that aren't major action movies. This will be especially true when you can get these titles on sale, where the price isn't too far from DVD price.
The pace of Blu-Ray adoption is going to be slower, no doubt, but it will happen. And unlike VHS-to-DVD, all Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible with DVD, so again, there's less incentive to re-buy those non-blockbusters if you already have them on DVD.
The people who counted on HD to duplicate what DVD did for the industry were simply deluding themselves. Today, there are far too many alternatives (including DVD) for one product to make such an impact.
We have had a PS3 for over a year. How many Blu Rays? MAYBE 15.
Like he said above - we buy the movies that Blu Ray will make a difference on. Apocalyptico, Iron Man (most recent), Pirates of the Caribean: Black Pearl, 30 days of Night....
I will buy Disney Movies on blu ray as they are released. But that is how I want to build up my non existant collection.
GrumpyBear
11-19-08, 09:44 PM
Well,
Blu-Ray needs to have a major push to meet last yrs sales numbers. Granted its still a drop in sales when you consider last yr there was competition with HD-DVD, now they have it all alone.
Blu-Ray isn't going to die, but is just not gaining market share, at the rate need to keep it from being more a Videophile player.
hdtvfan0001
11-19-08, 09:48 PM
Well,
Blu-Ray needs to have a major push to meet last yrs sales numbers. Granted its still a drop in sales when you consider last yr there was competition with HD-DVD, now they have it all alone.
Blu-Ray isn't going to die, but is just not gaining market share, at the rate need to keep it from being more a Videophile player.
I don't know what numbers you're looking at, but the latest downsized estimates on several Blu Ray News sites from Sony are for $750-$800 Million in Blu Ray disk sales, compared to $480 Million last year....so that would appear to me to be more. :D
They had anticipated $1 Billion...but then our illustrious economic situation arose.
GrumpyBear
11-19-08, 10:00 PM
Estimates are just that, and thats Movie sales, not player sales. More movies being sold to people that already own the Players, wont spread the movies to more people.
A good take on the Znet Blu-ray article from the Digital Bits
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa161.html#busy
Okay... now then... I promised you guys a rant about the Blu-ray Disc format, didn't I? Well, here it is. Lock the doors and batten down the hatches...
As you may know, there have been a couple of recent reports online that the Blu-ray format is D.O.A. or otherwise doomed to failure. The most recent such proclamation is an alarmist piece by ZDNet's Robin Harris, that has resulted in a small flood of e-mails from readers today, some concerned, many skeptical and all curious as to our reaction.
MOD EDIT: I'm sorry, because of copyright and fair use laws, this article was redacted. It is available at the link above.
GrumpyBear
11-19-08, 10:23 PM
Whats funny is on ZDNET, you can read this. Like he says they both agree on the same problems are there, thier Conclusions are just different.
Really cool features like this one will turn off people too.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2904&tag=rbxccnbzd1
Since it seems all the studio's do this you can't just blame Sony, but it sure smells like them. Granted Sony has put spyware on peoples machine before.
Pink Fairy
11-19-08, 10:27 PM
Okay... now then... I promised you guys a rant about the Blu-ray Disc format, didn't I? Well, here it is. Lock the doors and batten down the hatches...
....
As Charlie Brown might say, "Good grief..."
Excellent response.
Stewart Vernon
11-20-08, 01:10 AM
Either way, by the end of the year (almost certainly by the end of January), one of these two titles - and quite possibly BOTH - could hit 1 million units sold. That milestone will have been reached just a little more than two years after the Blu-ray format was launched. Do you know how long it took DVD to have its first million selling title? Just under THREE years - The Matrix, which debuted on the format in late 1999. Seems like Blu-ray's right on track to me.
This jumped out at me... DVD just under three years, and Blu ray just a little more than two years. He says this as if that is a great difference. 2>x>3 could mean x is about the same.
Not debating the rest of the pros/cons... but just interesting how the wordplay was used there to make a potentially minor difference in timeframe sound bigger.
paulman182
11-20-08, 05:44 AM
Excellent response.
Might be. I'll read it after I retire.:)
hdtvfan0001
11-20-08, 08:23 AM
Excellent response.
Yes...in fact....the response is a more solid and fact-based piece than the article in question. :)
The sales of BD disks and BD players continue to move upward, and at a pace that actually exceeds the pace SD DVDs did years ago during the same period in their evolution. In addition, with both disks and players hitting much more competitive price points just in time for holiday shopping.....look for even bigger numbers....and all this is a "down economy".
At the same time during the next 90 days that those players get more commonplace...disk prices are falling, and numerous new titles are being released. I wonder how many people even realize there are now over 1000 titles on Blue Ray?
In any case....when you see the huge sales volumes for the new BD titles like Iron Man, Dark Knight, and WALL*E....anyone claiming the formats death is simply out of touch with reality.
GrumpyBear
11-20-08, 10:41 AM
I almost want to step back a year. All the Hard talk from the HD-DVD people, look lower priced hardware(some called it dumping), our movies are taking off, all this talk today sounds real familiar.
I was in a meeting last night, some strange talk, about how many Blu ray players will be returned by users, who find out that they don't have a TV that supports HDMI. Other issues for the mass's this holiday seasons and returns, was the fact they avg joe needs a network drop, or have to order new firmware shipped to them, if the avg joe doesn't know how to burn his own firmware cd.
Some are saying Blu-Ray may want to wait even another season before going for the big push, as to many little quirks keep coming up, with new movie release, that require action on the user's part to make the machine work. Get the software working before pushing the machines onto the Avg Joe, backlash for lack of function, would be the last nail.
Granted the reports of how the Profile2.0 allows the movie companies to track what you are watching, will come to a stop, as users wont put up with that crap at all, and the more people complain the better.
hdtvfan0001
11-20-08, 11:28 AM
All the Hard talk from the HD-DVD people, look lower priced hardware(some called it dumping), our movies are taking off, all this talk today sounds real familiar.
I had HD DVD from the beginning too (and still do), and also felt that format was better. But I got over it in 1 day and moved on to adopt Blu Ray as the winner of that format war.
I was in a meeting last night, some strange talk, about how many Blu ray players will be returned by users, who find out that they don't have a TV that supports HDMI. Strange....there are Component-connecting Blu Ray players too that support up to 1080i, so I'm not so sure about returns in mass.
Other issues for the mass's this holiday seasons and returns, was the fact they avg joe needs a network drop, or have to order new firmware shipped to them, if the avg joe doesn't know how to burn his own firmware cd.
Firmware updates have been out there for years, including PC's and HDTV's too....so the average Joe needs to join this century some day. The digital TV transformation in February will also force some folks to learn a few things.
Some are saying Blu-Ray may want to wait even another season before going for the big push, as to many little quirks keep coming up, with new movie release, that require action on the user's part to make the machine work. The Blue Ray industry is paying $25 Million in advertising just in 60 days for this holiday season to promote the format and BD movie disks....and that doesn't count what Disney is now doing as well to promote their titles on Blu Ray. BD disk sales alone are expected to hit $750-$800 Million in 2008 alone.
I've seen over 10 of these ads promoting BD myself already the past 2 weeks.
This IS the big push.
As for quirks....my Panny BD30 works like a charm, has updated firmware that took 15 minutes to run, and displays incredible audio and video for all the Blue Ray disks I've watched. No quirks here.
Granted the reports of how the Profile2.0 allows the movie companies to track what you are watching, will come to a stop, as users wont put up with that crap at all, and the more people complain the better.
Profile 2.0, which is mostly for adding in some little extras on some BD disks, as well as the Internet connectivity to support it (as well as downloadable updates), and its more like an "option" than a necessity.
I've done over 15 firmware updates on HD DVD and Blu Ray players to date - not a single problem via home-burned CD's.
So to summarize...it would appear that the biggest challenge the Blue Ray folks have is better public education to overcome the mis-information and lack of information out there. I know the retailers are ramping up on those two fronts, so perhaps that one may be overcome over time.
Stuart Sweet
11-20-08, 11:31 AM
Great post.
I, too, thought HD DVD was better because of the "combo disc" option and the requirement for network connectivity. Those "digital copy edition" BDs and BD-Live mean the playing field's level.
Mrs. Shadow had to go to five different stores to find Wall-E on BD and she was told at all of them that plenty had arrived, and they all sold out early. Imagine that, for a dead format.
hdtvfan0001
11-25-08, 09:10 AM
With Amazon running a marathon sale on Blu Ray disks this week, as well as BB and Walmart, and also the multiple players on sale for "Black Friday"....
I'm anticipating this format will get a major shot in the arm in the next 10 days....
Last week revenues jumped (WALL*E and other releases), and a ton of new titles are coming out in the next 6 weeks....
Format dead?
It's alive.......alive......!!!!!!! :D
Sirshagg
11-25-08, 09:56 AM
With Amazon running a marathon sale on Blu Ray disks this week, as well as BB and Walmart, and also the multiple players on sale for "Black Friday"....
I'm anticipating this format will get a major shot in the arm in the next 10 days....
Last week revenues jumped (WALL*E and other releases), and a ton of new titles are coming out in the next 6 weeks....
Format dead?
It's alive.......alive......!!!!!!! :D
Bah, Humbug! :lol:
spartanstew
11-25-08, 10:15 AM
Don't know if anyone knew about the Sears one day sale two days ago, but I was able to pick up the Panny 35 for $139 and there's a rebate for 2 free Blu Rays with purchase, so the net for the player is less than $100 (BB, CC and Amazon have it for about $250).
Some of the deal boards were going nuts on this deal, and if you look there's an awful lot of 35's for sale on Ebay right now.
finaldiet
11-28-08, 08:56 AM
I recorded Planet Earth in HD and it looks amazing. Can Bluray look any better? Just curious. If so, I may have to buy Bluray and Planet Earth discs just to have it.
hdtvfan0001
11-28-08, 10:00 AM
Well it won't be dying becuase of me.....picked up 4 of those $128 Blu Ray Profile 1.1 players that were on the doorbuster sale at Walmart.....2 for a friend who wanted them, 1 for a relative, and 1 as my 2nd unit in a 2nd location in the house.
There were 60 on 2 pallets in the store - all gone in about 3 minutes. I was told the average store got 45 nationwide....and with over 1000 stores...that's 45,000 new Blu Ray owners of just that one model. I also saw 5 other units sub-$200 on sale this morning in various places....so I'm guessing overall.....another 100,000 new Blu Ray player owners added to the rolls just in one day (not even counting the PS3 units). That's alot of new Blu Ray disk buyer candidates as well.
I also got some incredible deals on Blu Ray disks this morning (who needs sleep anyway). I'm sure finaldiet may not be happy to hear that I got Planet Earth (which is indeed stunning) for $34.97 (half price) at Fry's this morning, along with 5 other current BD titiles @ 15.00, including Ironman and Kung Fu Panda. They sold out all 5 of those titles (had an average of 50 of each) also in about 30 minutes.
Dead format?....more evidence to the contrary.
Whoa, way to shop mister Julian! I concur, I will be supporting BluRay for some time, considering I have to have a hard copy for myself. :)
Mark Holtz
11-28-08, 01:52 PM
Meanwhile, the pessimists at PC World state this:
Could it be a Blue Christmas for Blu-ray?This holiday buying season is going to be the first big market challenge for Blu-ray. This will be Blu-ray's first holiday season as the unquestioned HD format leader, but with the economy in the state that it is, will it be able to actually manage to assert itself as the dominant video format and finally overtake DVDs? I'm having my doubts, and I'm not the only one.FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://www.pcworld.com/article/154565/could_it_be_a_blue_christmas_for_bluray.html)
hdtvfan0001
11-28-08, 02:18 PM
Meanwhile, the pessimists at PC World state this:
Could it be a Blue Christmas for Blu-ray?FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://www.pcworld.com/article/154565/could_it_be_a_blue_christmas_for_bluray.html)
Those goofs need a reality check.
If you follow the sales of players the past 10 days alone, and forecast through year end...and also the substantial upswing in BD disks as well (1000 titles now out & 133 new release titles coming out between now and 1/10/09)....you'd know that these naysayers are totally out of touch.
richall01
11-28-08, 02:20 PM
I recorded Planet Earth in HD and it looks amazing. Can Bluray look any better? Just curious. If so, I may have to buy Bluray and Planet Earth discs just to have it.
Yes!! Blu-ray is 1080p I had both. Let a friend have my old set
when I got the Blu-ray version.
mystic7
11-28-08, 02:21 PM
I guess I should have posted this in this thread:
K-Mart was selling the Sony BluRay player (BD-350) for $179.00, supposedly on Black Friday. I went there Thursday morning to find the Electronics Dept. and was told they already sold out.
Well, today, I went to Costco, and they're selling the BD-X1 for $187.00 with an HDMI cable included! That's 90 bucks off Costco's normal selling price, and for 8 bucks more than K-Mart was charging I got an HDMI cable as well. Just so ya's know.
Just out of curiosity, I haven't seen the BDP-X1 anywhere else. Is this a Costco only thing, model number wise? If so, what is its equivalent?
Those goofs need a reality check.
If you follow the sales of players the past 10 days alone, and forecast through year end...and also the substantial upswing in BD disks as well (1000 titles now out & 133 new release titles coming out between now and 1/10/09)....you'd know that these naysayers are totally out of touch.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but these guys are a little biased, they're PC guys. They don't want any hard copies...to me this is just sad. I know I will perpetuate it as long as I'm able or there a better way for archival perposes (my hard drive isn't it BTW).
Ron Barry
11-28-08, 03:14 PM
ZDNet and PC Mag are basically the same thing.. I don't take any predictions they make as anywhere near reality.
I am looking at either the Sony or a Panny unit. still have not reached my price point but pretty close. Glad to hear there is some heavy activity.
Steve Mehs
11-28-08, 03:19 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but these guys are a little biased, they're PC guys. They don't want any hard copies...to me this is just sad. I know I will perpetuate it as long as I'm able or there a better way for archival perposes (my hard drive isn't it BTW).
Why would that make any difference? BD is just as much computer related as CDs and DVDs. Those mediums aren't exclusive to home entertainment and neither is Blue Ray Disc.
It seems to make a difference to the people at ZDnet. Why? I'm not sure. they seem to ignore everything that shows Blu-ray in a good light. My gut feeling is that BR is a consumer product as opposed to a *computer* product. Or, maybe they all have XBox 360s with external HD-DVD drives and they're ticked at losing the format war.
The one thing that VERY FEW people 'get' over at ZDnet is the "mommy factor". Sure, I'm sitting here with my own media server that has anywhere from 4-6TB available (yes, terabytes) and I have more 'video on demand' than a cable company from the collections I've been making for over a year. And that's not including the stuff that I've "archived" to DVDDL+R.
But I'm a geek. I've been 'into' this stuff, everything related to technology and computers, since I was 3 years old back in the *1960s*. I understand all this technology.
My mom - doesn't. It has to be simpler for her to operate. My grandmother, even less so.
So what can go wrong with Blu-Ray? Well, you could have a loose connection between the player and the TV.
What can go wrong with what the majority of writers at ZD seem to prefer - video on demand? Everything from loose connections to internet interruptions to driver conflicts or codec problems. There are a LOT more "SPOF"s (as we called them at Fidelity - Single Point Of Failure) in a setup like that than in the Blu-ray setup which, let's face it, can be described to one's mother or grandmother as "high-octane DVD".
Believe me, I've done enough Family Tech Support in my years to know that the KISS principle *works* - Keep It Simple, Stupid! Blu-Ray is simple. Try explaining to a grandmother that she has to upgrade her phone service for higher internet bandwidth so that she can get Leno in HD on demand and she'll most likely look at you like you just landed from Mars. DVRs are hard enough to explain to a layperson - I've had mine for 8 years and only now is the general public really starting to "get it", and they know it by making a verb out of the word "TiVo".
phrelin
11-28-08, 05:10 PM
It seems to make a difference to the people at ZDnet. Why? I'm not sure. they seem to ignore everything that shows Blu-ray in a good light. My gut feeling is that BR is a consumer product as opposed to a *computer* product. Or, maybe they all have XBox 360s with external HD-DVD drives and they're ticked at losing the format war.
The one thing that VERY FEW people 'get' over at ZDnet is the "mommy factor". Sure, I'm sitting here with my own media server that has anywhere from 4-6TB available (yes, terabytes) and I have more 'video on demand' than a cable company from the collections I've been making for over a year. And that's not including the stuff that I've "archived" to DVDDL+R.
But I'm a geek. I've been 'into' this stuff, everything related to technology and computers, since I was 3 years old back in the *1960s*. I understand all this technology.
My mom - doesn't. It has to be simpler for her to operate. My grandmother, even less so.
So what can go wrong with Blu-Ray? Well, you could have a loose connection between the player and the TV.
What can go wrong with what the majority of writers at ZD seem to prefer - video on demand? Everything from loose connections to internet interruptions to driver conflicts or codec problems. There are a LOT more "SPOF"s (as we called them at Fidelity - Single Point Of Failure) in a setup like that than in the Blu-ray setup which, let's face it, can be described to one's mother or grandmother as "high-octane DVD".
Believe me, I've done enough Family Tech Support in my years to know that the KISS principle *works* - Keep It Simple, Stupid! Blu-Ray is simple. Try explaining to a grandmother that she has to upgrade her phone service for higher internet bandwidth so that she can get Leno in HD on demand and she'll most likely look at you like you just landed from Mars. DVRs are hard enough to explain to a layperson - I've had mine for 8 years and only now is the general public really starting to "get it", and they know it by making a verb out of the word "TiVo".I think you're right on the mark here. I was more than disappointed that basically the "HD-DVD" format development folded because of the "prerecorded" decisions by media companies. IMHO there was a potentially strong market for HD-DVD computer oriented recording systems without all the DRM hangups regarding protecting the interests of NBCU or Sony media subsidiarires.
hdtvfan0001
11-28-08, 07:38 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but these guys are a little biased, they're PC guys. They don't want any hard copies...to me this is just sad.
Yup.
ZDNet and PC Mag are basically the same thing.. I don't take any predictions they make as anywhere near reality.
I am looking at either the Sony or a Panny unit. still have not reached my price point but pretty close. Glad to hear there is some heavy activity.
Saw both the Sony S350 and Panny BD35 down below $190 the past 24 hours....
I suspect they wouldn't be getting much lower than that any time within the next few months....the big push was this week.
As for activity....as of 5pm today....BB (2 locations)...sold out of all models under $250. Sears...out at one location for all models under $275.00...Walmart (3 stores) sold out on all models under $250.00.
Ron Barry
11-28-08, 08:14 PM
Yeah... Still on the fence this year but I have started to be looking more closely. One of the issues now is that I have a receiver that has 5.1 optical in and DVD-A in (5.1). I have not done a lot of research but last time I started to look into this I got the impression to really get a good experience with my audio I should use the DVD-A instead of the optical. That would put me into a Panny 55 and the Sony 550 to get the analog audio outs. Is this true?
I am also trying to convince myself that Blu-Ray is going to give me a good Step up in PQ from my HD-DVD upcasted DVD video. I have a 1080i 60" Grand Wega II Sony LCD RP TV and when I went from my Yamaha C920 to my HD-DVD I have to say I did not get the WOW I expected and I am concerned that i will get a similar experience.
bluemoon737
11-28-08, 08:41 PM
ZDNet has been wrong on so many of these kinds of "predictions" before, you can't even take then seriously. :rolleyes:
In fact, adoption continues to grow....players will be sub $250 for the holiday season, and disks keep getting cheaper. The % of Blu Ray to regular disks are increasing, and with many, many new titles coming out during the next 8 weeks....this will be yet another ZDNet prediction folly.
Agreed, and you can get several players sub $200 right now...
bluemoon737
11-28-08, 08:46 PM
Im PRETTY sure blu-ray copies of these movies would blow away any dvd..the overall question does a blu ray player handle upconversion better of a DVD than that of a DVD player with upconversion??
..
Depends on the player...no different than upconverting DVD players...some are better than others.
Stewart Vernon
11-28-08, 10:29 PM
Another subtle thing motivated by the economy... Amazon stopped their post-sale price guarantee a couple of months back. They still honor price reduction on pre-orders if the price drops before they ship your order... but if you order today, it ships tomorrow, and 2 days later it drops $5 then no price match.
This is something no doubt motivated by the economy and the realization that they might have to take significant markdowns to move slow-selling merchandise and don't want to have to kick back money on a post-order price match.
BUT... the tide is slowly turning and folks who catch on to this policy are starting to cut back on pre-orders (I know I have) from Amazon. Their price-match made lots of blind buys a no brainer since you would always get the best price... but now it pays to wait.
This waiting, in turn, causes the economy to continue stagnation... and anything bad for the economy is bad for everything.
I know I had to rethink lots of purchases this year. Past years I used to have a large preorder list... but now I have a very small preorder list and a larger "watch this space" list to see what happens when movies come out.
Yeah... Still on the fence this year but I have started to be looking more closely. One of the issues now is that I have a receiver that has 5.1 optical in and DVD-A in (5.1). I have not done a lot of research but last time I started to look into this I got the impression to really get a good experience with my audio I should use the DVD-A instead of the optical. That would put me into a Panny 55 and the Sony 550 to get the analog audio outs. Is this true?
I am also trying to convince myself that Blu-Ray is going to give me a good Step up in PQ from my HD-DVD upcasted DVD video. I have a 1080i 60" Grand Wega II Sony LCD RP TV and when I went from my Yamaha C920 to my HD-DVD I have to say I did not get the WOW I expected and I am concerned that i will get a similar experience.
This is why Santa is bringing me the BDP-S550 from Sony. I have an AVR-5805 and AVR-3806. I will only benifit from 7.1 with the analog outs...maybe my AVR-3806 will use the HDMI input too. I will have to test it (see my setup). I don't have HD DVD so I can not comment, though I am really looking foward to seeing the difference from the DVD-3910's upscaling to 1080i, which has been fantastic. :)
hdtvfan0001
11-29-08, 05:03 AM
I am also trying to convince myself that Blu-Ray is going to give me a good Step up in PQ from my HD-DVD upcasted DVD video. I have a 1080i 60" Grand Wega II Sony LCD RP TV and when I went from my Yamaha C920 to my HD-DVD I have to say I did not get the WOW I expected and I am concerned that i will get a similar experience.
As one who has both HD DVD and Bly ray installed in my Home Theater...and watched many moives on both....I can safely attest to the fact that unless you get up into the higher-end Blu Ray units....HD DVD units do a better job of upconverting standard DVDs.
That said, to my surprise...even the cheaper Blu rays do a "good" job...but just not as good as the HD DVD units. If you get into the Sony 550 or Panny 50...you're going to see comparible standard DVD upconverting to the HD DVD players - which have been consistently reported to do a very good upconverting job (and I've also seen firsthand). Its no coincidence that one of the best upconverting regular players out there right now is the Toshiba (who made the HD DVD players).
mystic7
11-29-08, 06:22 AM
I also have a Toshiba HD-DVD player, just got the BX1 BluRay yesterday so I haven't compared its upconverting pq to the Toshiba yet, but one thing I am surprised by is how unfinished the BluRay technology is compared to HD-DVD even at this point in time.
Doesn't include all audio formats on less expensive models, you have to stick a flash memory card into it to "enjoy" the BD Live stuff, not to mention the much greater cost to produce BluRay discs compared to HD-DVD. What the hell were the studios thinking!?!
Yeah, I know, they were too busy counting the money being thrown at them to care.
The only reason I even got a BluRay player was to complete my Harry Potter collection in HiDef. How stupid to have the first five in HD-DVD and not be able to complete it with the rest of the movies, and having to buy the last three in BluRay when they come out.
No comments on my taste in movies, please. In the past 10 years those seem to be the only movies I can watch more than once.
I am very satisfied with the upconversion on both my Tosh HD-DVD and Panny BD player. I have a standard Sony upconvert which also does a very good job. I haven't seen the new Tosh XDE but I have read great reviews. The XDE is selling under $100 online and the latest Sony upconvert is around $70. So I can now connect one of each and have my cake and eat it too.
Ron Barry
11-29-08, 09:41 AM
As one who has both HD DVD and Bly ray installed in my Home Theater...and watched many moives on both....I can safely attest to the fact that unless you get up into the higher-end Blu Ray units....HD DVD units do a better job of upconverting standard DVDs.
That said, to my surprise...even the cheaper Blu rays do a "good" job...but just not as good as the HD DVD units. If you get into the Sony 550 or Panny 50...you're going to see comparible standard DVD upconverting to the HD DVD players - which have been consistently reported to do a very good upconverting job (and I've also seen firsthand). Its no coincidence that one of the best upconverting regular players out there right now is the Toshiba (who made the HD DVD players).
Yeah.... But what about when playing HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Native. I have played a few of those in my configuration (Borne Identity and Latest Harry Potter in HD-DVD) and the difference definitly was not in the WOW catagory in my configuration. At this point I am figuring it is because I have a 1080i set up. Thoughts?
Ron, I'm hoping that since I have not seen an HD DVD or Blu Ray that any content I see on my own 1080i setup will be a WOW factor. Until Santa's Helper (aka Mrs. Smiddy) says I can open it up, I will be waiting until Christmas day. :(
hdtvfan0001
11-29-08, 02:09 PM
Yeah.... But what about when playing HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Native. I have played a few of those in my configuration (Borne Identity and Latest Harry Potter in HD-DVD) and the difference definitly was not in the WOW catagory in my configuration. At this point I am figuring it is because I have a 1080i set up. Thoughts?
The difference you'll see between 1080i and 1080p is so nominal (if displays are both properly calibrated)...that 99% set of eyes cannot detect it.
I have watched countless hours of HD DVD and Blu Ray titles (Transformers is a good one to compare) on the same 1080i and 1080p ISF-tuned displays....and would say that both are WOW. As for playing SD titles.....you have to get up to the higher end units to see SD upconverted to any WOW factor.
Smiddy should see it in the BDP-S550 on his Xmas wish list.
In my case....I'm up to about 35 HD DVD titiles, and 45 in Blu Ray...and struggle to watch anything less than HD in either format or on an HD channel anyway...
With many BD titles now sub-$17 on sale (I bought 3 yesterday for $14.99)...and with 133 new released coming out in the next 6 weeks....supply and demand should bring more sanity to the overall BD pricing as well.
Ron Barry
11-29-08, 03:26 PM
Thanks for your insight... What is your thoughts on going optical vs Analog output route on a older recevier. I have a Pioneer Elite tx26 I believe.
Stewart Vernon
11-29-08, 04:23 PM
Thanks for your insight... What is your thoughts on going optical vs Analog output route on a older recevier. I have a Pioneer Elite tx26 I believe.
I'm sort of doing both. I bought the Samsung combo player because it did Blu and HD DVD + it had 7.1 analog outputs and will decode most (not DTS-MA unfortunately) of the newer codecs that my older Sony receiver will not.
I run both optical and 7.1 analog to my Sony audio receiver. For DVDs I just use my "legacy" optical and bitstream. For Blu/HD discs I use the analog most of the time and let my Samsung player do the decoding.
Only downside for me is that the Samsung doesn't have as good of a set of adjustments for the speakers via analog... and my Sony receiver doesn't apply its EQ to the analog inputs since it would have to re-digitize to do that... but that minor tradoff is worth it for the clearer sound on the PCM uncompressed or lossless DTS/Dolby True soundtracks on the HD/Blu movies.
This is in fact ideal for me because I don't have an HDTV with an HDMI connection so running HDMI to and replacing my audio receiver with a new one would introduce other pitfalls since I'd still have to go component video to my TV.
Basically, the very short run of analog from my player to my audio receiver is not sacrificing any quality due to audio loss so I'm a happy camper with analog audio.
Stuart Sweet
11-29-08, 06:00 PM
The difference you'll see between 1080i and 1080p is so nominal (if displays are both properly calibrated)...that 99% set of eyes cannot detect it.
I have watched countless hours of HD DVD and Blu Ray titles (Transformers is a good one to compare) on the same 1080i and 1080p ISF-tuned displays....and would say that both are WOW. As for playing SD titles.....you have to get up to the higher end units to see SD upconverted to any WOW factor.
Smiddy should see it in the BDP-S550 on his Xmas wish list.
In my case....I'm up to about 35 HD DVD titiles, and 45 in Blu Ray...and struggle to watch anything less than HD in either format or on an HD channel anyway...
With many BD titles now sub-$17 on sale (I bought 3 yesterday for $14.99)...and with 133 new released coming out in the next 6 weeks....supply and demand should bring more sanity to the overall BD pricing as well.
Thanks for your insight... What is your thoughts on going optical vs Analog output route on a older recevier. I have a Pioneer Elite tx26 I believe.
My experience: You all are right, there is very little difference between 1080i and 1080p on displays smaller than about 46". In fact there's very little chance between 720 and 1080 at those sizes. Where you will see a huge difference is in 120hz vs. 60hz. When you go to a big box store and see those ridiculously clear, looking-out-a-window type playbacks, it's because the TV is natively accepting the 24hz signal, which is only possible with a 120hz TV (120hz can display 60hz by doubling each frame, and 24hz by running each frame 5 times). You will not find a 1080i/120 TV, they are all 1080p.
As far as analog vs. optical, do you mean coaxial digital (via single RCA) vs optical digital? Some at AVSforum would disagree but I find no difference. if you're talking about 8 distinct RCA cables (one for each channel), I don't see much difference either. If you're talking about going 2-channel RCA... Boo! Hiss!! I know you don't mean that...
Mark Holtz
11-29-08, 06:16 PM
Added to my BluRay collection: Terminator: Sarah Conner Chronicles ($14.99), Mirrormask ($9.99), Gattaca ($9.99). Nevermind that I don't even own a player yet, and now do not expect to own one until next Christmas.
Ron Barry
11-29-08, 07:10 PM
As far as analog vs. optical, do you mean coaxial digital (via single RCA) vs optical digital? Some at AVSforum would disagree but I find no difference. if you're talking about 8 distinct RCA cables (one for each channel), I don't see much difference either. If you're talking about going 2-channel RCA... Boo! Hiss!! I know you don't mean that...
Hmm going to have to look at my manual. It is one for each speaker I believe and one for the sub so it would be 5+1, but I could be wrong. Definitely not 2 or 1.
Stuart Sweet
11-29-08, 07:12 PM
5+1 would be accurate for some setups... in order to get full audio data from a BD you need 7+1 (which, honestly I don't have).
hdtvfan0001
11-29-08, 07:34 PM
5+1 would be accurate for some setups... in order to get full audio data from a BD you need 7+1 (which, honestly I don't have).
For those various BD players supporting 7.1.....that's absolutely correct.
I'm running THX certified 7.1....the audio is indescribably delicious...oh no wait...thats the Mounds bar I'm eating right now.....but its mighty fine indeed. :D
Stuart Sweet
11-29-08, 07:36 PM
I think I'm too old and ignorant to really enjoy indescribably delicious audio.
I concur, the optical connection will only supply upto 5.1...there are some PC audio card producing 7.1, but then there aren't any optical receivers I'm aware of that will do 7.1. To get 7.1 audio you need HDMI or analog connections, plus of course your receiver needs to be able to do 7.1 (I'm weird for 10.2 actually). THX is not a requirement, however my setup is THX Ultra2 Certified.
EDIT: The HDMI receiver needs to also be capable of 7.1 channels...I can't recall where the defining line is for that, maybe version 1.3 for streaming uncompressed bits. My receiver isn't capable I don't beleive, I need to test this.
hdtvfan0001
11-30-08, 09:39 AM
I think I'm too old and ignorant to really enjoy indescribably delicious audio.
Now now Stuart....I suspect you're selling your ears short.
I can assure you that you could hear the difference (even my wife did). :D
I concur, the optical connection will only supply upto 5.1...there are some PC audio card producing 7.1, but then there aren't any optical receivers I'm aware of that will do 7.1. To get 7.1 audio you need HDMI or analog connections, plus of course your receiver needs to be able to do 7.1 (I'm weird for 10.2 actually). THX is not a requirement, however my setup is THX Ultra2 Certified.
EDIT: The HDMI receiver needs to also be capable of 7.1 channels...I can't recall where the defining line is for that, maybe version 1.3 for streaming uncompressed bits. My receiver isn't capable I don't beleive, I need to test this.
My top of the line Onkyo supports certified THX7.1, and also the descrete channel configuration. In fact, it actually supports 2 separate "distinct paths" of 7.1, so I could use it (switching one switch) to support another 7.1 speaker setup in another location (assuming I wanted to do that and had all the connections in place). With 2400 watts of output (not counting the self-powered sub(s)...it has plenty of horsepower.
As for the optical...in actuality..it depends. I have an HDMI to DVI converter for my projector set up....coupled with a concurrent optical audio cable connection. This particular receiver (989v2) supports the passing of THX7.1 through the optical simultaneously to the HDMI....but in looking at receivers for some time and researching these things alot...you are pretty much on target that this capability through optical is very rare. In my case...it was one of 2 deciding factors in why I chose my particular receiver.
In any case....hearing quality audio to go with Blu Ray video is something to behold, and difficult to quantify in terms of the actual experience. I've now had about 60 different people see Blu Ray in my setup, and in general, I could summarize things by saying 100% of them (at one point in time or more) had their jaws open in amazement.
The secret to Blu Ray (as it is/was in HD DVD) was that you have to match a quality audio experience with the outstanding video experience to make the whole thing work.
mystic7
11-30-08, 09:43 AM
My experience: You all are right, there is very little difference between 1080i and 1080p on displays smaller than about 46". In fact there's very little chance between 720 and 1080 at those sizes. Where you will see a huge difference is in 120hz vs. 60hz. When you go to a big box store and see those ridiculously clear, looking-out-a-window type playbacks, it's because the TV is natively accepting the 24hz signal, which is only possible with a 120hz TV (120hz can display 60hz by doubling each frame, and 24hz by running each frame 5 times). You will not find a 1080i/120 TV, they are all 1080p.
...
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I have a Panny 50" 1080i HDTV and I've tweaked it to perfection, but the pq from my Tosh HD-DVD player and Sony BluRay never measured up to those displays you mentioned in the big box stores and I could never figure out why. Pirates of the Caribbean looked amazing (the sword fight in the blacksmith barn), and then I saw a scene from Transformers that just blew me away, and was quite WOWish compared to what I experience from my home system. Now I know why.
As for any immediate difference between 1080i and 1080p upconversion, I dare say there is a slight difference in that, during the scene in Casino Royale where Bond is recuperating from his torture scene, he's wearing a robe with very tight little squares in the design. On my HD-DVD 1080i, there's a slight moir effect. Not so with my Sony BluRay 1080p upconversion.
mystic7
11-30-08, 09:45 AM
I concur, the optical connection will only supply upto 5.1...there are some PC audio card producing 7.1, but then there aren't any optical receivers I'm aware of that will do 7.1. To get 7.1 audio you need HDMI or analog connections, plus of course your receiver needs to be able to do 7.1 (I'm weird for 10.2 actually). THX is not a requirement, however my setup is THX Ultra2 Certified.
EDIT: The HDMI receiver needs to also be capable of 7.1 channels...I can't recall where the defining line is for that, maybe version 1.3 for streaming uncompressed bits. My receiver isn't capable I don't beleive, I need to test this.
If your receiver doesn't have 7.1 outputs, I'd say that settles the question right there :D
I think how you run your audio depends a lot on the hardware you have. Some things are better with one connection type over another and some even gain more features out of one or the other.
and 2 RCA cables are not too bad if you have a good receiver, my beast of a 5.1 receiver can pull dolby 5.1 out of 2 RCA cables ;) (its from a time before optical and coax audio connections :p )
If you want insane upconversion of DVDs, take a look at the www.Oppo.com upconvert players. They are truly some of the best out there only being beat by one or two players that are $1000-$2000 more. I love mine (I have the older 1080i model) coupled with my Samsung 1080p TV....makes DVDs look insane and better than I have seen from any HD-DVD or Bluray player upconverting DVDs.
mystic7
11-30-08, 09:58 AM
In any case....hearing quality audio to go with Blu Ray video is something to behold, and difficult to quantify in terms of the actual experience. I've now had about 60 different people see Blu Ray in my setup, and in general, I could summarize things by saying 100% of them (at one point in time or more) had their jaws open in amazement.
The secret to Blu Ray (as it is/was in HD DVD) was that you have to match a quality audio experience with the outstanding video experience to make the whole thing work.
So true. Having just gotten my BluRay player I hadn't tweaked all the audio settings and was extremely disappointed in the audio while watching my first BluRay movie. After doing my tweaks (with 10 minutes left in the movie!) the difference was stunning.
vBulletin® v3.7.6, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.