And yet another shoe falls in Iraq...

[waydwolf]

    Oh no, there's no link between Iraq and world terrorism.

    But then we have Saddam on television promising thousands of dollars to anyone(or rather their families posthumously) who commits a suicide attack.

    But then we have hundreds if not thousands of foreign nationals enter Iraq before and during the war to engage in terrorist attacks on American soldiers as well as any Iraqis disloyal to Saddam.

    But then we capture... Abu Abbas! Ringleader and inventor of the Achille Lauro hijacking where American citizen and NY resident Leon Klinghoffer, a helpless man in a wheelchair, was casually killed and tossed into the ocean.

    There for seventeen years, since before the Gulf War and all the way through the post-war years when Saddam insisted he had nothing to do with international terrorism and the blame America first brigade was dutifully repeating every piece of Iraqi propaganda.

    Quick opinion: send him off to wonderful scenic Italy where he can begin serving the five life terms already set down against him.

    Congratulations to the civilian and military intelligence agencies and the military troops who nabbed him. Keep it going and we'll keep the barbecues and TV ready for you when you get home to relax!

    (As an aside, I predict installation and service discounts for veterans if not from Charlie and Rupert, then at least from the workers in the trenches.)

 

[Richard King]

Palestinian Authority Demands U.S. Free Abu Abbas

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35693-2003Apr16.html

"The Palestinian-Israeli interim agreement signed on September 28, 1995 stated that members of the Palestine Liberation Organization must not be detained or tried for matters they committed before the Oslo peace accord of September 13, 1993," he said.

"This interim agreement was signed on the U.S. side by President Clinton

[RichW]

We knew about Mohammed Abbas and the murderous "Carlos the Jackal" and their links to Iraq sponsors long ago. Since that time prior to the Gulf War (under the Reagan and Bush administrations, RKing401) we shipped millions of dollars od war materials to Iraq.

The first fatal mistake Saddam made was thinking he could invade Kuwait without world opinion, and especially his US "allies" turning against him. We were so cozy with Saddam at that time, in spite of the fact that Iraq sponsered various terroist groups from IRA extremists, Red Brigade activists, and various anti-Israeli factions, including the PLF.

As for Italy, they had their chance at Abbas back then but let him leave Italy for Jugoslavia.

[Rick_EE]

Originally posted by RichW
As for Italy, they had their chance at Abbas back then but let him leave Italy for Jugoslavia.

So you would let a murderer go free because you disagree with the governments involved?

[waydwolf]

WARNING: :soapbox: (op-ed, I know, so just leave it where it lies, YMMV)

    We were NEVER EVER "cozy" with Iraq. The US was only too happy to see the newly empowered religious fanatics of Iran and the bloodthirsty Ba'athist Iraq beat each other stupid in their war. This claim that we were friends with them is a gross oversimplification that is purposeful on the part of those who not only should but do know better in the press and politics.

    Fact is, we have over the decades had to make unlikely bedfellows grudgingly with various regimes that made people in the various administrations sick, just so we could further an aim elsewhere. The term is EXPEDIENCY and if good intentions pave the road to Hell, then expediency is the road planning department.

    Containment of fanatical Islam was good for us, and good for the then Soviet Russians who didn't need it spreading into their nearby internal republics with their large Muslim populations. Look at Azerbaijan today and imagine what would have happened had Iran been free and clear to export revolution against infidels anywhere they liked. Multiply the carnage almost exponentially. And we'd not now watch a stifled Iran slowly dealing with itself internally and heading towards moderation.

    We also weren't very happy with the former Shah of Iran either, but supported him as much as we did because we liked the alternatives even less.

    Our greatest shame is lacking the willpower to stand up, admit we do have interests in how the rest of the world goes, and actually summon up the strength to go do what we have to do.

    Let's face it, the best of the rest of the world still see their citizens wanting to be someplace else with the USA at the top of their list of prospective new home nations. Imagine how much nicer we look to third world nations.

    Envy is what led to ultimately to anti-semitism and the Holocaust(read up on German, Polish, and European Jewish history back to the earliest centuries after the spread of Christendom and especially "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler and you see what I mean). Envy is what led ultimately to apartheid(read up on the riots and killing in pre-apartheid South Africa). Envy is what leads to hatred and warfare and bloody murder. People see another group with something they don't have, and the common HUMAN instinct to not take responsibility for one's condition comes to the fore and so the alternative is to blame them. They had to have come by it unfairly or else I screwed up and that's not possible. Human history is littered with it.

    Envy is what makes the rest of the world either want to move to the USA, rebuild their own nations to benefit them, or make war on that big bad old USA which has so much money and prosperity. Envy is what makes people overthrow rich French kings and what makes crowds ransack and loot falling regimes. They have something, and we want what they have. We mistakenly believe in and allow kings and potenates to rule us when revolts across the world show the power was really in the hands of the people all along and we just needed to take it back. But admitting that is extremely hard when we spend our lives trying to avoid discomfort.

    Which is precisely why you see hatred of the rich here in the US and endless sniping at Microsoft and Bill Gates. He had to have done something wrong for him to have that money and not us, because if not, then there's something better about him than us and we can't accept that we might have turned left when we should have turned right in life.

    When people from the lowest  economic classes of nations from around the world and ten dozen religions come here, work as hard here as they did there just to live, and find it pays off very nicely, it tells you that we've got the best environment for individual human achievement anywhere.

    I used to merely suspect that until I installed a cable modem for a man from India who told me how he went from a family of "untouchables" there to having a house paid for in cash that cost fifty times more than I've made since I turned sixteen. He's the kind of guy who is proud of his heritage, but would easily take a dozen bullets in the chest for his new country.

    It is way past time for the US to export the sort of freedom and choices to the world that the world denies its citizenry, to increase the chances that their people can achieve the sort of success that some people here have managed. We have a moral obligation not to throw fish to our relatives around the world as the left wants to do with nonstop foreign aid payments to regimes which keep working against the US and its people, but throw them fishing poles and slap down any tyrants and miscreants who try to keep them from it.

    The more time goes by, the prouder I get of my nation's promise and the more acutely aware I become of where we've gone wrong for the sake of expediency, and what we have to do now to undo all that. Time to eliminate the ancient false gods of unearned priviledge and free people to earn their priviledges and encourage them to export their learnings along the way to the next.

    If you're wondering about people who say things like this, I know exactly what I've done in my life. I am not proud by a long shot about a lot of my choices, what I've mistakenly believed in my youth at times, about how I've reacted to various actions and new actions I took in wrong directions. Neither do I anymore beat myself up about them and neither should any of you. As long as you yet breathe, there's time to do something worthwhile and build something good, however small. Well, there's billions breathing in wait to be able to build something good and we shouldn't keep them waiting any longer.

 

[RichW]

"So you would let a murderer go free because you disagree with the governments involved?"

By what "brilliant" step of logic do you conclude that was my point? I wasn't the one who let him go free. Italy was! And have you stopped beating your wife/kids/dog yet?

The poster said we should turn him over to Italy for justice. I merely pointed out that it didn't work before and it may not work again. The ideal would be to try him in World Court for crimes against humanity, which would send a much stronger message that the world will not tolerate terrorist acts against civilians. For too long, we have allowed evil men to essentially live comfortably in exile, or even under arrest, and the message against terrorism is not given a very loud voice.

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by Rking401
Palestinian Authority Demands U.S. Free Abu Abbas

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35693-2003Apr16.html



Not so fast. :)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030416/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_abbas_reax_030416151408 (http://)



The clause in question, contained an interim peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians, deals only with the detention and prosecution of certain people in the jurisdiction of the Jewish state and the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites), the official told AFP on condition of anonymity.
"It does not apply to the legal status of persons detained in a third country," the official said of Abbas, the mastermind of the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro who was capture by US forces in Baghdad on Monday.

Although you have to admire the Palestinians for doing their part for conservation- they're trying to recycle older terrorists. If they got Abbas, that would give room for yet another child to strap a bomb on his chest and blow up an Israeli school bus.

Give him to Israel. I'm sure they have a million charges pending against him. And they don't have a death penatly, so the French can rest assured.

[Ric]

Couple of easy workarounds:

"hey, we're not holding him - the Iraqi police force have him in custody. We are just overseeing his humanitarian needs."

"We released him as the Palestinians requested. We also directed him to the Syrian Embassy but he apparently walked into the Italian embassy by mistake. What are the chances of that ever happening again?"

[toenail]

Originally posted by RichW
We knew about Mohammed Abbas and the murderous "Carlos the Jackal" and their links to Iraq sponsors long ago. Since that time prior to the Gulf War (under the Reagan and Bush administrations, RKing401) we shipped millions of dollars od war materials to Iraq.

The first fatal mistake Saddam made was thinking he could invade Kuwait without world opinion, and especially his US "allies" turning against him. We were so cozy with Saddam at that time, in spite of the fact that Iraq sponsered various terroist groups from IRA extremists, Red Brigade activists, and various anti-Israeli factions, including the PLF.

As for Italy, they had their chance at Abbas back then but let him leave Italy for Jugoslavia.

You may be right, so I'm sure you join with me and many others in celebrating the fact that we finally got a President installed who has the guts to do what's right, and stop mollifying these dictators. Remove them all!

[Rick_EE]

Originally posted by RichW
" And have you stopped beating your wife/kids/dog yet? 


Was that really called for? 
 

[James_F]

Originally posted by Halfsek


Not so fast. :)


You are correct. The US didn't sign the deal, they witnessed it. Big difference. Italy didn't even do that. This guy is going to be sent to Italy and get what he deserves.

[James_F]

Originally posted by RichW
The poster said we should turn him over to Italy for justice. I merely pointed out that it didn't work before and it may not work again. The ideal would be to try him in World Court for crimes against humanity, which would send a much stronger message that the world will not tolerate terrorist acts against civilians. For too long, we have allowed evil men to essentially live comfortably in exile, or even under arrest, and the message against terrorism is not given a very loud voice.
The world court. :lol: Yea and 20 years later we'd have a verdict. :rolleyes:

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by Rick Densing


Was that really called for?

 

I think he was demonstrating a faulty argument line. He wasn't directing it at you.

Like asking an innocent person, "so, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" All the while knowing that he is innocent. But when the question is posed like that, any bystander would automatically doubt your innocence.

He probably should have put it in quotes to make that more understandable.

[Karl Foster]

Originally posted by James_F

The world court. :lol: Yea and 20 years later we'd have a verdict. :rolleyes:

You mean like the quick action that is being taken against Milosivich?

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by James_F

The world court. :lol: Yea and 20 years later we'd have a verdict. :rolleyes:

You, my man, are oh so correct.

Let's see, Germany gave the 9/11 conspirator 18 months for 3,000+ deaths. Yeah, I trust the world court.

[Halfsek]

Leave it to Euro's...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2952879.stm (http://)
But he is not quite the big catch the Americans are seeking.
His arrest is a piece of unfinished business and not a breakthrough in the war on terror declared by President Bush.

He is not the link between Iraq and al-Qaeda which Washington has been seeking to establish.

Who said he was connected with Al-Queda? And when does capturing a super terrorist like this not signal a breakthrough in the war on terror?
They just can't give the US any credit.

The author goes on to explain that he's 'old school' terrorist. Sort of like Run DMC, I suppose. He's been replaced with a newer type of terrorist. Yeah, Abbas's days are over. He's just living his life in peace.

[James_F]

The Italians will take care of him. They have a "right-wing" government in power so we can all figure he'll be "taken care of".

[Jack White]

Originally posted by waydwolf
    Oh no, there's no link between Iraq and world terrorism.

    But then we have Saddam on television promising thousands of dollars to anyone(or rather their families posthumously) who commits a suicide attack.

    But then we have hundreds if not thousands of foreign nationals enter Iraq before and during the war to engage in terrorist attacks on American soldiers as well as any Iraqis disloyal to Saddam.

    But then we capture... Abu Abbas! Ringleader and inventor of the Achille Lauro hijacking where American citizen and NY resident Leon Klinghoffer, a helpless man in a wheelchair, was casually killed and tossed into the ocean.

    There for seventeen years, since before the Gulf War and all the way through the post-war years when Saddam insisted he had nothing to do with international terrorism and the blame America first brigade was dutifully repeating every piece of Iraqi propaganda.

    Quick opinion: send him off to wonderful scenic Italy where he can begin serving the five life terms already set down against him.

    Congratulations to the civilian and military intelligence agencies and the military troops who nabbed him. Keep it going and we'll keep the barbecues and TV ready for you when you get home to relax!

    (As an aside, I predict installation and service discounts for veterans if not from Charlie and Rupert, then at least from the workers in the trenches.)

 

WRONG, that's not what people were saying.
People were saying that there was no real or major link between Iraq and Al Queda.
They were also saying that there was NOT ONE SHRED OF PROOF that Iraq was behind 9/11.
NEITHER of those 2 things have been proven wrong yet.

[lastmanstanding]

People were saying that there was no real or major link between Iraq and Al Queda.

OK. But please remember that these terrorist outfits are not like the YMCA. They don't have offices where they put up signs and have annual dues.

We do know that Saddam ruled all of Iraq with an iron fist. He felt free to exterminate Kurds and Shiites at his whim.

We do know that there were several terrorist organizations working and training around Baghdad, ie. the 707 used to train hijackers.

We also know that there was a very large terrorist camp in northern Iraq, and that US Marines killed several hundred Al Queda soldiers, operatives, fighters, or whatever you would like to call them.

Saddam did nothing to purge Iraq of these Al Queda. He didn't complain to the UN or the US that they were there, and he wanted them out.

He did offer to pay many years wages to the families of terrorist suicide bombers.

We don't have the plans for 9/11 written out on Saddam's personal stationary, but neither are we stupid.

Saddam had clear and definite links to the facilitators of 9/11, and did nothing to impinge their efforts.

In the US, in criminal court, he might not get life, but there is enough to put him away for a nice long time.

But not all the cards have been played yet. We are rebuilding the CIA after years of castration.

Peace for us all requires peace in the Middle East. The old way of doing things had to end, and for now it has.

I do miss those funny little guys with the odd headgear yelling 'Det to Amerika!' at the TV cameras. Don't see much of that anymore. Wonder why.

[Bogy]

Originally posted by James_F
The world court. :lol: Yea and 20 years later we'd have a verdict. :rolleyes:
It's funny, America sees the World Court as being totally ineffective when prosecuting people of other nationalities charged with crimes, yet Congress has already declared pre-emptive war against the Netherlands should any U.S. citizen ever be charged with a crime in the World Court. :shrug: :rolleyes: :(

[Halfsek]

Originally posted by Bogy

It's funny, America sees the World Court as being totally ineffective when prosecuting people of other nationalities charged with crimes, yet Congress has already declared pre-emptive war against the Netherlands should any U.S. citizen ever be charged with a crime in the World Court. :shrug: :rolleyes: :(

Right, because compared to our standards of justice, the world court is quite ineffective.
Congress is being pro active in protecting American citizens.

It makes perfect sense- if I don't trust an organization, I'm going to protect my citizens from it.

[Bogy]

Fortunately, the people of the Netherlands are more understanding and tolerant people than Americans are. Even though we have declared war on them, they supported our vendetta in Iraq.