Dish 921 and 211 coming in Sept at $799 and $299?

[Ken_F]

Over on AVS, a member has received finalized pricing info for the Dish 921 HDTV PVR and Dish 211 Firewire HDTV receiver.

According to the info, the Dish Network 921 will carry a MSRP of $799 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210910&perpage=20&pagenumber=11) with a September release. The standalone 211 HDTV receiver will carry a MSRP of $299 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175857&pagenumber=4), and is also slated for September release.

[Eyedox]

Good news .. hope it's true and not another rumor. Any price or release date on the JVC TU-PVR9000? My guess would be $599 considering its features compared to the 921.

[Ken_F]

I'll just add that we can't be certain as to the validity of the above information until Echostar actually puts out a press release.

[Bob Haller]

I doubt the price, its not set till right before delivery because costs change so fast on HDs and such. Wishful thinking prevails. Besides I doubt the 921 will be out till next year.

BNice dream, reality it isnt....

[Cyclone]

I also do not believe that the 921 will be had for less that $1,000. This guy's list is subject to change.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Please consider this info just a rumor, it is going against what I am hearing. (Hey I would love a 921 for $799 though!)

[DaYooper]

So....

PVR721 - $599
PVR9000 - $599
PVR921 - $799


Riiiight....:lol:

[Mike123abc]

If the prices really are that low Dish better be completely out of 6000s. Who would possibly pay $600 for a 6000 when the others are $299 and $799.

[Richard King]

If the prices really are that low Dish better be completely out of 6000s. Who would possibly pay $600 for a 6000 when the others are $299 and $799.Gee, maybe they planned ahead.

[Jacob S]

Of course they did, they will wait until about all of the 6000's are out of stock before selling the 211's.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Folks the 211 (from what I know of it) will only have Firewire outputs, contains no Over the Air Tuner and will only work with Mitsubishi TV's.

It is NOT a replacement for the Dish 6000.

[wmayo]

The 211 doesn't need the OA tuner since it can only be used with the Mits integrated models (one with inbuilt off-air tuner and firewire).
Someone at AVS suggested the Mits promise module (add-on for non-integrated sets for OA and firewire) and 211 was the way to go. Hmmm, $1000 for module plus $299 for 211 is better than 921 for $1000 (or less)????

[Mike123abc]

If the 211 were to have Svideo and component outputs in addition to the Firewire it would be great. It seems pretty narrow minded of Dish to put out a Firewire only box. OTA is not that important since the price of OTA tuners will be near $200 soon (you can get them on Ebay now for $220-250).

OTA boxes are getting down enough that I think I will buy some soon to down convert the digital feeds and feed them back through my home system so all the TVs get the good picture. It is funny you watch the analog NTSC and think this is a good picture, then you tune over to a down converted DTV pic and say wow this is a lot better picture.

[Ken_F]

If the 211 were to have Svideo and component outputs in addition to the Firewire it would be great.The pictures I have of the 211 from CES show a phone jack, two Firewire connections, and a coax satellite input--nothing else.

I doubt Echostar will add component or DVI, because then the 211 would compete with the 6000's replacement, the 811--or whatever they ultimately call it--coming early next year. I am still somewhat skeptical of the reported price for the 921, but if that were to pan out, we'd have the 211 at $299, the 921 at $799, and perhaps the 811 (with 8-VSB OTA, DVI-CP, but no Firewire) at $399 to $499.

[Marcus S]

How many Mits HD subscribers is E* expecting to sell the 221 to? or are they counting on the fact that they, single handedly, will convert the entire industry?

[Ken_F]

Marcus,

There are a considerable number of Mitsubishi and Hitachi owners with Firewire. Clearly, they do not want to ignore this potential customer base. Moreover, if a future standalone HDTV Tivo were to incorporate Firewire (as seems entirely possible), then that one would be able to timeshift HDTV from cable, OTA, and Dish Network all with a single, fully-featured Tivo box.

[RAD]

OK, what's going to happen first, we find Saddam or we can actually buy a 921? I'm betting it's going to take a lot longer then September for either to happen.

[Jacob S]

I thought the 211 was supposed to be the replacement to the 6000, if not then what will be?

[Scott Greczkowski]

No the 211 is not the replacement for the 6000, I believe the 6000 replacement will be the 811 (I think thats correct)

Remember (and you can quote me on this) ALL RECEIVERS SOLD TWO YEARS FROM NOW will be HD boxes. (While I say this I realize not everyone will have HDTV's but the receivers will downconvert to work on regular NTSC TV's.

[Jacob S]

Interesting, I wonder if they will outdate all of the receivers we currently own or choose at that time to change the encryption or features of the receivers or to do certain things to fit more channels into the stream.

[Marcus S]

"programming blacked out via Firewire, please switch to DVI, Component Video,or S-Vid"

[Cheyenne]

Marcus,
Obviously, the 211 is not for the average home consumer.
DUH, 1394.....

[Marcus S]

DUH, and the majority of subs can't even spell it.

[Cheyenne]

Does not compute.

[Jacob S]

Why would they come out with a receiver for just one type of tv? Do they have to come out with a different receiver to every tv that is made different than the others that is standard to the market?

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Cheyenne
Does not compute.

Point and case.

[Ken_F]

Jacob,

It's not just one TV, it's all Mitsubishi models in the past three years; Mitsubishi's HDTV models are among the best marketed and [thus] best-selling. Modern Hitachi sets should also support the 211 as well.

[Marcus S]

The real concern here is that DVI and Firewire support black out encryption to prevent recording certain programming, though you can switch over to component vid or a lower res and still watch? Is there some standard in the encryption that allows you to watch TV but just not record? If so, I have not found it.

So I would adopt this technology, why? And DIVX was such a success? (unrelated or maybe not). Talk amongest yourself's. :eek:

[Ken_F]

Marcus,

You can always watch over DVI-CP without any downrezzing, but there is no way to record DVI-CP. Normally, content will be passed through the DVI output without any encryption, meaning any computer LCD display with DVI would work to view HDTV. However, when content is flagged with HDCP, encryption will be used, and only DVI-CP displays and televisions will be able to see the signal. When content uses HDCP, there would also be "downrezzing" to 480p through component.

Content is always output through Firewire to display devices; however, content can be protected with something called 5C. For example, a PPV movie might use the 5C flag "copy never," such that the Firewire televisions could still view the 5C signal, but VCRs would not be able to record or save it. Any consumer electronics vendor that wants to support 5C or HDCP material must agree to the licensing terms, so vendors cannot create their own Firewire devices to avoid or ignore these measures (at least, not legally in the USA).

But remember, HDCP and the 5C "copy never" flag is only intended for PPV, etc. The proposed cable DTV "plug and play" agreement, awaiting formal approval by the FCC, specifies that "copy never" can never be used on local broadcast HDTV, nor can it be used on standard cable channels. The cable DTV agreement may or may not allow the "copy never" flag on premium movie channels; there is some disagreement over that. The agreement does say that "copy never" can be used for PPV.

Of course, all this applies only to digital, hi-definition signals. You can still record the s-video or composite output as you've always done.

[Marcus S]

I am more concerned that this will open a door where if you want to watch specific HD content, the provider may block it, but you can always "pay for it". For example, say ABC showing NFL, blocks it via Firewire or DVI, but pay now and watch it in HD or watch it for free in low res. I am also wondering what the impact will be to HD PVR's and HD DVD recorders. Watch it live and pay for it, but again don't bother trying to record it and obviously nothing to stop SDTV via Firewire or DVI from doing the same.

[Ken_F]

Marcus,

That door is already open.

Broadcasters already have the option to offer a low res SD feed and charge for a separate HDTV feed if they want. The FCC only requires that they offer a SD feed comparable to what you get now; they can do whatever they want with the remaining bandwidth. But there is no way to do deliver such a PPV or pay service with current (and announced) receivers cause they don't support it. If broadcasters were to offer a SD and charge for a HD feed, it would require new set-top boxes with conditional access (CA is a part of the ATSC standard, but not implemented on any current boxes).

The broadcasters are not going to do this anytime soon, because with the impending analog shutoff, the survival of their business depends on the ability to convert their analog viewers to the digital broadcast signal. If they cannot convert users to the digital feed, they go out of business. Viewers are only going to make an effort to get and watch their new digital feed if it offers some compelling new content (like HDTV).

The only limitation the cable DTV agreement imposes on PVRs is a 45 minute (or was it one hour?) maximum pause.

[Jacob S]

how about the cable tuners that are going to be in the newer tv sets? could that be implemented with it?

[treader19]

The 211 is only for Mitsubishi HDTV. They did a study and found that Mitsu has close to 60% of the market right now, so that is why they have the firewire only port.

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Ken_F
Marcus,

That door is already open.

Broadcasters already have the option to offer a low res SD feed and charge for a separate HDTV feed if they want. The FCC only requires that they offer a SD feed comparable to what you get now; they can do whatever they want with the remaining bandwidth. But there is no way to do deliver such a PPV or pay service with current (and announced) receivers cause they don't support it. If broadcasters were to offer a SD and charge for a HD feed, it would require new set-top boxes with conditional access (CA is a part of the ATSC standard, but not implemented on any current boxes).

The broadcasters are not going to do this anytime soon, because with the impending analog shutoff, the survival of their business depends on the ability to convert their analog viewers to the digital broadcast signal. If they cannot convert users to the digital feed, they go out of business. Viewers are only going to make an effort to get and watch their new digital feed if it offers some compelling new content (like HDTV).

The only limitation the cable DTV agreement imposes on PVRs is a 45 minute (or was it one hour?) maximum pause.

It's worst than I feared. After some research, DVI has the best encryption, and Firewire standards have yet to be approved by any industry.

[MrAkai]

I think the reason why we're seeing the "211" for <$300 is because it's probably the most simple box Dish has ever come up with.

It doesn't require any of the high cost video components of a 6000 or even a 301.

All it has to do is take encrypted MPEG2 from the dish, decrypt it, and send the MPEG2 stream to the Mitsu.

I wouldn't be suprised if it doesn't have any kind of overlay support unless it's using the Mitsu to do the overlays. It might have a simple setup to generate guide/etc screens and send them down the firewire, but I seriously doubt they'll put in the hardware to re-encode the MPEG2 stream with overlays (like guide+video or channel banners).

Since ATSC supports (if I remember correctly) DVD-like subtitle streams, I anticipate that will be how the menus/etc are delivered to the TV.

Of course that's my opinion, and I'm often wrong ;-)

-S

[abospaum]

Everyone has also forgotten the biggest price driver. Competition. Both D* and Digitial Cable seem that they already have or soon will have other solutions.

The biggest difference is on the SDTV receivers such as the series 2 Tivos which are less than $250 for a 2-tuner PVR. If it happens to be available in your area HDTV from a cable provider is a much cheaper alternative.

Charlie can't take forever to come out with new equipment and then charge a fortune. If the pricing isn't reasonable and $1300 is not reasonable then people will go elsewhere. Echostar depends on new subs and the average user and not the ultra high end users.

[Sherlock]

DVI has greater bandwidth and has the capability to pass signal simultaneously in digital and analog formats. It has also been used as a standard for digital computer monitors, which is in-line with HDTV monitors. It sounds more logical to me than trying to adapt Firewire as the interface.

[EatingPie]

But you can't record off DVI, while you can off Firewire.

-Pie

[Eyedox]

That's why DVI sucks ... and we have a responsibility as consumers to make sure that RECORDABLE formats of digital HD are used ... like firewire.

[EatingPie]

Well I think there is a place for both, though my TV only takes firewire.

Firewire is good for broadcast TV, since this is what most people want to legitimately record. DVI would be good for pre-recorded, copy-protected formats, like HD-DVD... Though I certainly hope HD-DVD decks will provide Firewire too!

Obviously they both have advantages and disadvantages, but there is most certainly a place for both in the coming digital HD!

-Pie

[Eyedox]

I agree ... the industry or the FCC should MANDATE that all TV's have BOTH types of digital connections, as well as analog ones.

[kelliot]

DVI is not particularly good for multiple signal sources, for example, DVD and satellite and broadcast all at the same time. Displays don't generally permit more than one connection.

[Ken_F]

kelliot,

Most HDTV televisions have multiple sets of HD component inputs. Next year, televisions will have multiple DVI inputs.

Next year, Dolby Digital receivers should also incorporate DVI / HDMI switching.

[Eyedox]

A/V Receivers NEED to incorporate FIREWIRE connections since HAVi is the only digital connection for two-way communication and recording.