UPnP Issues (pulled from HDPC-20 thread in DIRECTV General)

[Tom Robertson]

If Sony or Microsoft wrote a DLNA compliant client for their game consoles, we'd be playing DIRECTV recordings today.

As for HDPC-20, I don't think DRM was the killer.

And as we've seen, the hardware was all set and ready to rock. Dish and DIRECTV both have mentioned the cause of the delays in their PC based tuners in the past...

Cheers,
Tom

Edit: This thread was pulled from another thread: When is HDPC-20 going to be released? (UPDATE: Product has been suspended) (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1916985#post1916985) as it deserved it's own thread.

[Ken S]

If Sony or Microsoft wrote a DLNA compliant client for their game consoles, we'd be playing DIRECTV recordings today.

As for HDPC-20, I don't think DRM was the killer.

And as we've seen, the hardware was all set and ready to rock. Dish and DIRECTV both have mentioned the cause of the delays in their PC based tuners in the past...

Cheers,
Tom

Well, that is if DirecTV's UPnP code didn't crash them.

[Tom Robertson]

Well, that is if DirecTV's UPnP code didn't crash them.

Which of them is crashed and under what circumstances. Could it be the client as opposed to the server? (always fun trying to figure out which is broken without proper tools to diagnose...)

Peace,
Tom

[Ken S]

Which of them is crashed and under what circumstances. Could it be the client as opposed to the server? (always fun trying to figure out which is broken without proper tools to diagnose...)

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

1. Over a year ago DirecTV had UPnP errors which caused it (HR20) to crash when certain UPnP enabled (Panasonic) cameras were on the same network. DirecTV had to correct the error in their code to fix this

2. They are now having the same issue with Sonos on the same network. This problem still exists.

3. DirecTV crashes the UPnPAV client on Syabas' Popcorn Hour machines. DirecTV even mentioned a fix for this in a CE...unfortunately it didn't work. This problem still exists.

4. The DirecTV UPnP functionality for communicating and opening ports works with some routers and not with others...people are doing things like disabling DNS passthrough, etc. to get it to work. Now, maybe this is a problem on the router side...but it's a bit strange that the same routers can handle every other UPnP request thrown at them.

5. How many times have people been told to disconnect their network cable in order to make their machine more stable? Think that's because of the power drain from the Ethernet socket?

So, sometimes the bad code affects the HR2x...other times it affects other devices...but there are just too many problems all relating back to the HR2x to keep putting the blame elsewhere...and, of course, DirecTV's own postings of attempted fixes in their release notes.

[smiddy]

Nice summary Ken S!

[gregjones]

Tom,

1. Over a year ago DirecTV had UPnP errors which caused it (HR20) to crash when certain UPnP enabled (Panasonic) cameras were on the same network. DirecTV had to correct the error in their code to fix this

2. They are now having the same issue with Sonos on the same network. This problem still exists.

3. DirecTV crashes the UPnPAV client on Syabas' Popcorn Hour machines. DirecTV even mentioned a fix for this in a CE...unfortunately it didn't work. This problem still exists.

4. The DirecTV UPnP functionality for communicating and opening ports works with some routers and not with others...people are doing things like disabling DNS passthrough, etc. to get it to work. Now, maybe this is a problem on the router side...but it's a bit strange that the same routers can handle every other UPnP request thrown at them.

5. How many times have people been told to disconnect their network cable in order to make their machine more stable? Think that's because of the power drain from the Ethernet socket?

So, sometimes the bad code affects the HR2x...other times it affects other devices...but there are just too many problems all relating back to the HR2x to keep putting the blame elsewhere...and, of course, DirecTV's own postings of attempted fixes in their release notes.


The one thing universal about UPNP is that it is poorly specified and implemented. The number of cheap consumer devices that do things wrong with UPNP is astonishing. Even a cursory glance at support sites will show you that there are problems with almost every UPNP device out there. There have been since day one. Several of the items mentioned above are known issues with the other devices. Fixes for these devices often means identifying them and doing something out of spec to workaround their issues. This is necessary because a lot of the implementations in these devices are built into the non-updatable firmware.

How about we move on and accept that this was a product with extremely limited opportunity to be profitable. Quit blaming the HR2x for the death of this product that many people wanted.

[Ken S]

The one thing universal about UPNP is that it is poorly specified and implemented. The number of cheap consumer devices that do things wrong with UPNP is astonishing. Even a cursory glance at support sites will show you that there are problems with almost every UPNP device out there. There have been since day one. Several of the items mentioned above are known issues with the other devices. Fixes for these devices often means identifying them and doing something out of spec to workaround their issues. This is necessary because a lot of the implementations in these devices are built into the non-updatable firmware.

How about we move on and accept that this was a product with extremely limited opportunity to be profitable. Quit blaming the HR2x for the death of this product that many people wanted.

Right...don't blame the HR2x because EVERYONE else can't code. Wait, but why would DirecTV put in their release notes attempts at fixing those problems with the other faulty devices. I guess the DirecTV engineer I traded emails with to diagnose one of those problems was actually doing something else? Seems to me the problems I listed originate with the HR2x and while you won't admit it...DirecTV has.

[gregjones]

Right...don't blame the HR2x because EVERYONE else can't code. Wait, but why would DirecTV put in their release notes attempts at fixing those problems with the other faulty devices. I guess the DirecTV engineer I traded emails with to diagnose one of those problems was actually doing something else? Seems to me the problems I listed originate with the HR2x and while you won't admit it...DirecTV has.

Anyone that has developed software knows that fixing interoperability issues often means making your code work with someone else's error in a predictable way. I have not see any of the release notes describe DirecTV not coding to the spec originally.

The implementations in a number of these devices are objectively wrong--not in spec. But to make them work with the HR2x or any other device, you have to code in ways to handle the "eccentricities" of specific devices. The same happens in VOIP devices as well. The SMB protocol (which MS uses for file-sharing) is another prime example. The primary issue there is that MS won't follow their own published standard from version to version. It is easy to say that other implementations are broken because they don't work with XP or Vista. In fact, the MS software is broken.

I want the HR2x to work with the largest possible set of devices. But assuming that all of the problems lie in DirecTV not coding the spec properly is just not reasonable. Look at the support logs for any of the devices mentioned. The HR2x is not, by far, the only device having problems with them.

[Ken S]

I want the HR2x to work with the largest possible set of devices. But assuming that all of the problems lie in DirecTV not coding the spec properly is just not reasonable. Look at the support logs for any of the devices mentioned. The HR2x is not, by far, the only device having problems with them.

I didn't say ALL of the problems lie in DirecTV's coding that would be absurd...I listed some specific instances. You suggest people code around DirecTV...I would suggest that's hard because DirecTV continually changes their code and seems to have a pretty poor track record of releasing without adequate testing. I understand you disagree.

[gregjones]

I didn't say ALL of the problems lie in DirecTV's coding that would be absurd...I listed some specific instances. You suggest people code around DirecTV...I would suggest that's hard because DirecTV continually changes their code and seems to have a pretty poor track record of releasing without adequate testing. I understand you disagree.

Actually I was suggesting that DirecTV was coding around other people's flawed implementations. DirecTV's fixes are often attempts to ignore the standard in the same way that a flawed piece of equipment does, in order to interface with that particular piece of equipment.

Web browsers have standards too. The most popular web browser (IE, unfortunately) is the one that is least standards-compliant. In order to work for the largest audience, developers have to knowingly ignore the right way to do things. UPNP devices are very much in the same boat.

I think you and I simply see two different approaches. I prefer that they commit to the standard first, and then make "fixes" to work with the broadest array of other devices as time permits.

[Tom Robertson]

Well, that is if DirecTV's UPnP code didn't crash them.

Which of them is crashed and under what circumstances. Could it be the client as opposed to the server? (always fun trying to figure out which is broken without proper tools to diagnose...)

Peace,
Tom
Tom,

1. Over a year ago DirecTV had UPnP errors which caused it (HR20) to crash when certain UPnP enabled (Panasonic) cameras were on the same network. DirecTV had to correct the error in their code to fix this

2. They are now having the same issue with Sonos on the same network. This problem still exists.

3. DirecTV crashes the UPnPAV client on Syabas' Popcorn Hour machines. DirecTV even mentioned a fix for this in a CE...unfortunately it didn't work. This problem still exists.

4. The DirecTV UPnP functionality for communicating and opening ports works with some routers and not with others...people are doing things like disabling DNS passthrough, etc. to get it to work. Now, maybe this is a problem on the router side...but it's a bit strange that the same routers can handle every other UPnP request thrown at them.

5. How many times have people been told to disconnect their network cable in order to make their machine more stable? Think that's because of the power drain from the Ethernet socket?

So, sometimes the bad code affects the HR2x...other times it affects other devices...but there are just too many problems all relating back to the HR2x to keep putting the blame elsewhere...and, of course, DirecTV's own postings of attempted fixes in their release notes.
So just to be clear, your earlier comment about PS3s and XBoxs really wasn't about PS3s or XBoxs. :)

And your evidence is that DIRECTV is to blame is that they are trying to fix things?

Yes, I realize I'm sounding like a D*Fender here, when I'm really trying to be open minded and balanced. DIRECTV very possibly has some issues with their UPnP implementations. They likely started with the same base libraries for Linux that everyone else uses--and likely have the same problems everyone else has.

Yet, that to me, doesn't imply DIRECTV is the sole problem or the major problem. Only that DIRECTV is actively trying to fix interoperability problems.

Part of what is coloring my impression here is how hard I know DIRECTV worked to solve HDMI interoperability problems. Including problems that were most definitely not their incorrect coding to a standard. Yet they knew they had to interoperate with devices are not compliant.

So my feelings are that DIRECTV is doing the same again with UPnP. Solving their problems and working around the problems introduced by others.

Ken S, I know you worked hard to get Popcorn Hour machines to interoperate with HR2x. And likely DIRECTV worked hard to verify where the problems where. Then fixed their part. (or attempted to.) So I ask. Are you now certain the remaining problems with Popcorn hour are DIRECTV's fault? Or the fault of a poor specification? Or perhaps maybe PopCorn Hour's?

Peace,
Tom

[Ken S]

So just to be clear, your earlier comment about PS3s and XBoxs really wasn't about PS3s or XBoxs. :)

And your evidence is that DIRECTV is to blame is that they are trying to fix things?

Yes, I realize I'm sounding like a D*Fender here, when I'm really trying to be open minded and balanced. DIRECTV very possibly has some issues with their UPnP implementations. They likely started with the same base libraries for Linux that everyone else uses--and likely have the same problems everyone else has.

Yet, that to me, doesn't imply DIRECTV is the sole problem or the major problem. Only that DIRECTV is actively trying to fix interoperability problems.

Part of what is coloring my impression here is how hard I know DIRECTV worked to solve HDMI interoperability problems. Including problems that were most definitely not their incorrect coding to a standard. Yet they knew they had to interoperate with devices are not compliant.

So my feelings are that DIRECTV is doing the same again with UPnP. Solving their problems and working around the problems introduced by others.

Ken S, I know you worked hard to get Popcorn Hour machines to interoperate with HR2x. And likely DIRECTV worked hard to verify where the problems where. Then fixed their part. (or attempted to.) So I ask. Are you now certain the remaining problems with Popcorn hour are DIRECTV's fault? Or the fault of a poor specification? Or perhaps maybe PopCorn Hour's?

Peace,
Tom

Tom,

I didn't mention XBox or PS3. That was another poster. My comment was along the lines of not expecting some HR2x features to work all that well...especially when it comes to network related items.

It's not just Popcorn Hour it's the variety of other items I listed. Yes, the Popcorn Hour folks are still stating it is an improper response from the DirecTV server that is crashing the UPnPAV client. Maybe they're lying?

However, they (Syabas) did write a patch that allows their device to exist on a network (although with missing functionality) with DirecTV devices. DirecTV did take a crack at fixing the problem in one of the earlier CE releases (or at least stated they had)...that fix didn't correct the problem and there has been no improvement since. Now, since the PCH software didn't change in that time and DirecTV said they "fixed" the issue (although they didn't) where does the problem lie? Remember also, the PCH and DirecTV devices operated on the same network without issue prior to the last national release.

After many talks with engineers at Panasonic over a year ago they took at look at the HR20 and found that yes...the HR20 was crashing because it didn't handle the "proper" UPnP network traffic from the cameras. With the help of Earl I got in touch with a DirecTV engineer and they were able to fix the issue. Maybe the Panasonic folks were lying and the DirecTV engineer did a specific fix just for that camera model?

The Sonos folks are seeing a similar problem.

As I said...why are so many people having problems with the network services function doing something at simple as opening up a port on a router? I have a router where I can open ports through UPnP functionality with every other piece of software and hardware that I can find that does so. This includes freeware utilities...but for some reason the only device that can't seem to handle that is the HR2x devices. Remember, I'm not talking abolut the actual communication that takes place after the port is opened....just the basic function of opening a port. So, I communicated with the router folks and asked...their response...DirecTV is not properly formatting the requests and it is failing. Maybe they're lying too? Remember from the Syabas standpoint they have EVERY reason in the world to fix this issue as it has a detrimental affect on their device.

The HR2x series has had a history of network related problems. From the early releases that would lockup on reboot with a network cable attached through a number of ongoing problems. That's an awful lot of smoke...might there not be a burning ember or two?

We could also look at mediashare and how that still has issues and appears to be a moving target for developers like TVersity.

Yes, DirecTV did work (and I assume is continuing to do so) on HDMI issues. Is it the same engineers doing both items? Are both being given equal priority? Maybe some of this stuff is given the same priority level as CIG?

To get back to my one-line comment...I don't think after all of the releases/patches that we have seen over the past two plus years it is at all unfair for an end user to expect that a new HR2x national release will have problems and potentially be at the root of a network issue.

No, I don't think they're the only ones writing bad code. No, I don't think they're the only ones with UPnP bugs, but to believe they haven't introduced some really would go against their history.

[Stuart Sweet]

I haven't had a lot of time to look at this thread and I find it very interesting.

It does seem to me that both Tom and Ken S are really saying the same thing at heart, which is that uPNP is problematic. From what I can tell there is no real standardization with it. Certainly there is DLNA and that's very much in its early stages, just as HDMI was when the HR20-700 was engineered.

It seems to me fair to say that if there's no consensus what's wrong or right, then everybody, and nobody, is to blame.

I further think that it's great that we can have this conversation and I hope that all the manufacturers involved have a chance to get together and solve this. uPNP and DLNA could be great technologies for interconnecting different devices, once everyone is on the same page.

[Tom Robertson]

Ken,

Thanks for the added information.

No, I don't think anyone is lying. That seems so incredibly harsh. :) Mistakes happen, especially in poorly written "standards".

Based on your better evidence than I have at my hands, I am far more willing to believe you are correct that DIRECTV is at the heart of the problems. Thanks for sharing. We'll be sure DIRECTV sees this too.

Peace,
Tom

[jprafter]

Well guys, I have to say I have been affected with the HR2x/SONOS UPnP bug since the push of the NR and all subsequent CE's.

I had posted in both the CE and the DirecTV2PC beta forums. Each week, I was hoping for a fix from DirecTV or even an email or private message to better define the problem. But it appeared nothing took place.

Nothing, that is, until I posted in the SONOS forum. I got an email from their tech very soon afterward. I provided the details of the UPnP packets being sent by my HR20's and the SONOS zip players. They worked with me to determine what was happening and they never placed blame on DirecTV. In fact they made it clear that the UPnP standard can be interpreted and optionally portions may or may not be implemented. That means it isn't really a "standard".

That being said, I think it would be very hard to place blame on DirecTV for these types of coding issues. These problems will become more common place as we add UPnP devices to our networks from different manufacturers or software developers.

BUT... DirecTV could take a lesson from how SONOS dealt with the issue. They attacked it! (This was even after I mentioned I was on beta software on both my HR20's.) They kept me informed. They sent equipment to DirecTV. And last but not least, worked with DirecTV techs on a solution. I have had my SONOS equipment for about three years now. SONOS really knows how to deal with their customer base. They go out of their way to solve issues even before they may hit many customers. They keep their products ahead of the competition. SONOS even apologized for not contacting me sooner because they had not seen my post in their forum. They suggested I could have gotten a response the next day if I open an issue with their customer service group. I had been afraid to do that since I was on a CE release on the DirecTV side.

I love the CE program, but sometimes it feels like no one is listening at DirecTV, though that may not actually be the case. It can become very frustrating after certain things are working for months and then suddenly they get broken. But then again, that's part of why we are all here. Hopefully DirecTV just listens better in future. ;)

[Ken S]

Well guys, I have to say I have been affected with the HR2x/SONOS UPnP bug since the push of the NR and all subsequent CE's.

I had posted in both the CE and the DirecTV2PC beta forums. Each week, I was hoping for a fix from DirecTV or even an email or private message to better define the problem. But it appeared nothing took place.

Nothing, that is, until I posted in the SONOS forum. I got an email from their tech very soon afterward. I provided the details of the UPnP packets being sent by my HR20's and the SONOS zip players. They worked with me to determine what was happening and they never placed blame on DirecTV. In fact they made it clear that the UPnP standard can be interpreted and optionally portions may or may not be implemented. That means it isn't really a "standard".

That being said, I think it would be very hard to place blame on DirecTV for these types of coding issues. These problems will become more common place as we add UPnP devices to our networks from different manufacturers or software developers.

BUT... DirecTV could take a lesson from how SONOS dealt with the issue. They attacked it! (This was even after I mentioned I was on beta software on both my HR20's.) They kept me informed. They sent equipment to DirecTV. And last but not least, worked with DirecTV techs on a solution. I have had my SONOS equipment for about three years now. SONOS really knows how to deal with their customer base. They go out of their way to solve issues even before they may hit many customers. They keep their products ahead of the competition. SONOS even apologized for not contacting me sooner because they had not seen my post in their forum. They suggested I could have gotten a response the next day if I open an issue with their customer service group. I had been afraid to do that since I was on a CE release on the DirecTV side.

I love the CE program, but sometimes it feels like no one is listening at DirecTV, though that may not actually be the case. It can become very frustrating after certain things are working for months and then suddenly they get broken. But then again, that's part of why we are all here. Hopefully DirecTV just listens better in future. ;)

jprafter,

Much the same can be said for the way the Syabas folks have gone after the problem. They communicate with their customers. There is a big difference between the issue with Sonos and Syabas...in the Sonos case it is the HR2x that is locking up...in the case of Syabas the HR2x is causing its device to go into a loop.
While UPnP isn't a strict interface standard companies have to be very cognizant of what they're doing and how it may affect others. It would be all too easy for a company that has been adversely affected by a DirecTV product to turn around and release software with a bug that takes down the HR2x (thus fixing their issue)...no on wants that...least of all the customers...there needs to be better cooperation and much more communication.
With many companies there's at least a bit of communication, a ticket system, something. With DirecTV it's more like stuffing a note in a bottle and tossing it in the ocean...maybe someone notices, maybe not.

[Canis Lupus]

I think all of you are bringing up good points which highlight what I believe are a combination of poor standards (there are lots of examples of this in tech), varying degrees of willingness to follow the standards, varying degrees of willingness to try to code interoperability, varying degrees of new problems that can crop up when you try to be interoperable, and DRM.

[evan_s]

This very much reminds me of early and to some extent still existing issues with HDMI and HDCP. Vague areas in the standards, varying implementations and not enough compatibility testing made it a big head ache for customers. Unfortunately I don't think uPNP or DLNA has any sort of compatibility testing center like HDMI now has which has helped greatly with these issues.

[bhelton71]

You guys do realize technically the Popcorn Hour people are correct - the HR's do send a bad search response.

The specific issue ( and this would be true for any UPnP device ):
A valid MediaServer response *MUST* ( sorry to disappoint the 'UPnP/DLNA is a bunch of crap' crowd - but there is absolutely no ambiguity and no room for interpretation - this is a specific UPnP/DLNA compliance requirement ) include the ConnectionManager and the ContentDirectory services. The HR2x MediaServer does not expose a connection manager - therefore it is non-compliant. But you would think the devices should handle that a little more gracefully - ala the PS3.

And it is true - there are optional components to UPnP/DLNA - which is exactly why the HR2x's can't fast forward or rewind media while every other DMA creator seems to think trickplay is an important optional feature. But I digress.

What I don't get - what did any of this have to do with the HDPC-20 being cancelled / postponed ??

[CliffV]

But you would think the devices should handle that a little more gracefully - ala the PS3.


One of my mentors from 30 years ago was a protocol guru. He put it this way. "Anything you send on the wire has to be pure according to the strictest interpretation of the standard. Anything you receive from the wire should be assumed to be poorly formatted and interpretted as best you can."

That advice has stuck with me and helped me for my whole career.

[evan_s]

One of my mentors from 30 years ago was a protocol guru. He put it this way. "Anything you send on the wire has to be pure according to the strictest interpretation of the standard. Anything you receive from the wire should be assumed to be poorly formatted and interpretted as best you can."

That advice has stuck with me and helped me for my whole career.

That holds true for pretty much any input/output you can do. Be it a network communications standard, reading and writing a file or even just output to and input from a user.

[Rob-NovA]

One of my mentors from 30 years ago was a protocol guru. He put it this way. "Anything you send on the wire has to be pure according to the strictest interpretation of the standard. Anything you receive from the wire should be assumed to be poorly formatted and interpretted as best you can."

That advice has stuck with me and helped me for my whole career.

In the Internet world, this is known as Postel's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_Principle). Developers should really take note of this.

[amirm]

That being said, I think it would be very hard to place blame on DirecTV for these types of coding issues. These problems will become more common place as we add UPnP devices to our networks from different manufacturers or software developers.
Actually, partial blame can solidly be put on DirecTV. No device should hang or malfunction as a result of what is going on the network. Period. The device can do the wrong thing but not hang. It is sloppy coding which does not anticipate an unexpected response and hangs.

Once they fix the hang, and analysis shows that another device is sending an improper request/response, then we can say it is someone else's fault. But not before.

As to original post, one of the biggest failings of DNLA was to not include copy protection. It was a difficult issue for it to take on from political point of view so it decided to not deal with it. Yes, there are some optional provisions but as was mentioned, the term "optional" in a "standard" is an oxymoron :). With rare exceptions (like DTS in DVD spec) optional stuff doesn't get traction.

And yes, the world of voluntary compliance with a standard without mass market support s full of incompatibility issues.

[rahlquist]

The specific issue ( and this would be true for any UPnP device ):
A valid MediaServer response *MUST* ( sorry to disappoint the 'UPnP/DLNA is a bunch of crap' crowd - but there is absolutely no ambiguity and no room for interpretation - this is a specific UPnP/DLNA compliance requirement ) include the ConnectionManager and the ContentDirectory services. The HR2x MediaServer does not expose a connection manager - therefore it is non-compliant. But you would think the devices should handle that a little more gracefully - ala the PS3.

What I don't get - what did any of this have to do with the HDPC-20 being cancelled / postponed ??
As someone who has captured a few packets here and there while using DirecTV2PC I would almost be willing to bet the answer is right in front of us.

If D* conformed to the spec and exposed the connection manager then anyone could create a device and/or software that would allow streaming and they do not want that. So if they conform to the spec they have chosen (which they probably did to avoid the cost of recreating the wheel) then they may very well open things wide that they dont want to, so they are using the part of the spec that suits them and doing their own code for the rest.

While I love the stuff D* is putting out I dont have any rose colored glasses thinking that their goals are anything other than the most direct approach to make more money. If they can use Upnp for all the in the clear communications and their own code for everything else they eliminate the need to recreate the wheel and can keep things nice and secure.

So just because its thought they are using an open spec and the PS3 can see it doesn't mean that anyone could create a client to work with it. The only way we will ever know is if someone actually manages to create one or if D* becomes more forthcoming with their plans which is about as likely as Microsoft filing bankruptcy tomorrow.

[Ken S]

In the Internet world, this is known as Postel's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_Principle). Developers should really take note of this.

Can I hear an "Amen"?

BTW, I worked with some developers that shortened the saying to...

ack?
nak?
YAK!

[Ken S]

Actually, partial blame can solidly be put on DirecTV. No device should hang or malfunction as a result of what is going on the network. Period. The device can do the wrong thing but not hang. It is sloppy coding which does not anticipate an unexpected response and hangs.

Once they fix the hang, and analysis shows that another device is sending an improper request/response, then we can say it is someone else's fault. But not before.


Unfortunately, the HR2x has had problems on both sides. It crashes because of other items on the network...some of which were compliant and it takes down other devices because of non-compliance.

[mjwagner]

I have 11 different devices attached to my network in addition to my HR20-700 and HR21-200. All hardwired except for 1 (a wifi enabled Kodak Picture frame). The only devices that I ever have any problems with are the DirecTV boxes.
I'm no expert but it just seems to me that it is a bit hard to believe that while all these other devices just seem to be able to play nice together and the DirecTV boxes don't that it is not an issue with the code in these DirecTV boxes.
Honestly I don't really care who is at fault. I just want the issues resolved.

[gully_foyle]

Can I hear an "Amen"?

Amen!

[stephenC]

Great technical discussion about uPNP and interoperability. Let me throw in a little marketing bent to the discussion. I hope I explain this somewhat ok for the Dilberts on the board.

1. Sonus is a networking media company. This is their main product (AFAIK) and they have a deep focus to make their product work on your home network. It's their business.
2. DirecTV has recently (ok, a few years) started networking their STBs. This is a relatively new feature on their hardware and it is used by a fairly small percentage of their customer base (I'm going to guess less than 5% of total customers, but more than 90% of DBStalk members).

Ok, if you are with me so far, then let's be a fly on the wall at a D* developers status meeting for the next firmware version. Bullet topic - uPNP and Sonus issues. Yeah, we know we have some coding issues but the customer base is too small and the cost/benefit is not there yet. Maybe sometime in 2009 when more D* customers are plugging in their STB to the home network. Moving on to the next topic - Font selection tool.

FYI, I tend to be a Dogbert. I try to see problems from both sides (technical and non-technical).

[Jolliec]

Did the Sonos issue get resolved? Mine seems to be working now...

[gully_foyle]

Great technical discussion about uPNP and interoperability. Let me throw in a little marketing bent to the discussion. I hope I explain this somewhat ok for the Dilberts on the board.

1. Sonus is a networking media company. This is their main product (AFAIK) and they have a deep focus to make their product work on your home network. It's their business.
2. DirecTV has recently (ok, a few years) started networking their STBs. This is a relatively new feature on their hardware and it is used by a fairly small percentage of their customer base (I'm going to guess less than 5% of total customers, but more than 90% of DBStalk members).

Ok, if you are with me so far, then let's be a fly on the wall at a D* developers status meeting for the next firmware version. Bullet topic - uPNP and Sonus issues. Yeah, we know we have some coding issues but the customer base is too small and the cost/benefit is not there yet. Maybe sometime in 2009 when more D* customers are plugging in their STB to the home network. Moving on to the next topic - Font selection tool.

FYI, I tend to be a Dogbert. I try to see problems from both sides (technical and non-technical).

I don't use the DIRECT2PC feature. Tried it and found that I had better solutions (Slingbox).

I also don't use the PC-to-HR2x client due to the lack of trickplay and the inability to support DivX files. Which is why I use Popcorn Hour.

Problem is not that I'm using the HR2x for these features. It is that, even though I AM NOT USING IT, I cannot turn off the new, malfunctioning, software that trashes the things I am using.

Software that breaks other devices is bad no matter how you spin it.

Oh ... Merry Christmas.