Cancelled Installation

[Daishi013]

First off - great forums. They have been very informative during my attempt to switch from Cox to D*. Ugh...I hate Cox.

Installation of D* was scheduled for today. When the tech showed up we talked about where to install the dish. I wanted the dish to be installed onto the roof overhang and then he could us the attic vent holes to run the coax. He told me that he would not (refused to) attach the dish anywhere on my new house (2 story house in southern AZ) because of the high winds and there just wasn't enough support for the dish. However, many of the homes around me have the dish installed to the overhangs. The overhangs have what look like 2x6 ends attaching all of the joists together.

His solution was to install the dish on the common concrete brick wall between my neighbor and me. He then wanted to bury the coax under the gravel in the yard and run it to the outside cable box. From there he wanted to use the (2) d-mark cable runs already installed. I told him I still needed one of the d-marks for my cable modem. He then thought he could just fish the other coax cables through the wall to my junction box.

The final issue is that my house is two stories tall and the common brick wall is only about 18 feet away from the house. The wall is on the north side of the house so the dish would be facing toward the house to the south. He said that the satellite transmissions come down at about a 50 degree angle and there "should" be clearance for the signal but he wasn't sure. Doing some quick math (and assuming the edge of the roof is 20 ft high and the dish is 4 ft from the ground) gives a clearance angle of 41 degrees. Is he able to check this before installing the dish?

I canceled the installation so I could get some opinions from people. First, do you think it is just BS that he won't hang it on the house? Also, do you think there is enough clearance between the house and the dish if it was installed on the wall?

Thanks for any help!

[kevinm34232]

First off is this standard or high definition? Under most circumstances, you cannot mount the HD dish on the fascia 2x6, although I have done it in rare circumstances.

The SD 18" dish can be mounted almost anywhere. It sounded like he was worried about a damage claim, probably heard a horror story from another tech in his office.

[Daishi013]

It would be a HD dish. It is just surprising to see it installed that way on so many other homes around me.

[kevinm34232]

DTV says no though because of the weight and potential of the wood to warp and twist. That's what the undereave mounts are for.


The final issue is that my house is two stories tall and the common brick wall is only about 18 feet away from the house. The wall is on the north side of the house so the dish would be facing toward the house to the south. He said that the satellite transmissions come down at about a 50 degree angle and there "should" be clearance for the signal but he wasn't sure. Doing some quick math (and assuming the edge of the roof is 20 ft high and the dish is 4 ft from the ground) gives a clearance angle of 41 degrees. Is he able to check this before installing the dish?

Thanks for any help!

Yes, using an inclometer you can check the elevation clearance, or just hold the dish up with the meter on at the proposed mounting location.

[Richierich]

Get another installer. I had one come out and he told me I shouldn't have my dish on the roof. I told him that Directv installed it that way. They are not paid alot so they want to do the cheapest way to get the job done and be on their way.

[kevinm34232]

Yes but unless he didn't have a ladder tall enough to reach the roof, it would not be easier to install it on a wall and bury 18' of cable.

[Richierich]

You have to understand psychology, they do what is in THEIR BEST INTEREST!!! The EASY WAY!!! Tine is MONEY so the faster they can do a job the better it is for them because they are making more money per hour.

Ask any installer that you know personally and he will tell you so.

[Daishi013]

It is more the refusal to install it to the house in any way that was annoying. If the under eave mount is the correct way to install it on a stucco house with tile roofing I am willing to pay the extra to install it that way.

I'm wondering if I should just buy the under eave mount myself and call them back out or do they have these on hand?

[kevinm34232]

Im guessing this is a tile roof in AZ? That would be why were talking about the fascia here?

[dirtyblueshirt]

There would also be the option of attaching it to the stucco of the house, though it may cause more damage than its worth. I agree though, shop around for other installers. Never take the first opinion if you're not happy with the solution.

[Daishi013]

I'm looking at the many different types of under eave mounts right now. I am also seeing in other forums that many installers are pushing back on the under eave installations. I would think that the under eave mount with the (2) monopoles would be quite adequate for the slimline dishes.

[joe diamond]

Get another installer. I had one come out and he told me I shouldn't have my dish on the roof. I told him that Directv installed it that way. They are not paid alot so they want to do the cheapest way to get the job done and be on their way.

Rich,

Everything you said is accurate. Things are not as clear as you think. True, installers need to keep moving to make any money. Sometimes they take shortcuts to get on to the next job. Eventually the crappy installs catches up with these and they just find something else to do.........they are gone and the crappy installs are still there.

What also happens is customers suggest or demand stuff that either will not work or is not possible according to the installation specification DTV publishes. Regardless of how it comes out it will be the installer they try to find and hold responsible.

Your idea of a second opinion is a good one. I canceled /rejected a job in an apartment because the system could not be grounded and the apartment manager said he would not allow the dish anywhere. The customer just called the installation company and they sent out another tech. The dish went on the roof and the lines went through utility closets. I was told my completion rate would suffer.

Someone will find a way to get our friend Dashi installed.

It would be interesting to see how this roll out.

Joe

[Daishi013]

Thanks for all of the replies. Joe - as an installer do you see any issues with an under eave mount? There isn't anything special/weird about my roof. I certainly don't intend to ask /demand an install that doesn't work.

As for attaching it to the stucco - I'm not real comfortable with that. The new stucco here in AZ is actually the EIFS and I have heard some horror stories with attaching anything to this.

I will call D* again tomorrow and reschedule the installation. I really don't want anything attached to the common wall because then I get to deal with the HOA. I guess if they can't attach it to the house I will just get to be a Cox customer...groans...

[joe diamond]

Daishi,

You are correct about the stucco.......known as hardwall.....there is no practical way to attach to this wall system.

The under eve mount can work but is not part of the stadard installation and you cannot expect the DTV tech to have one. These mounts will work but sometimes the facia vent material gets damaged or needs to be cut.

The dish location should be near the electric meter. The installer may have been trying to find a way to ground the system.

The most common solution is to put the dish on a steel pole with a concrete base near the cable enterance to the building. A variation on this is using a long steel pole (2" diameter) that is attached to the facia or roof edge. The base is in concrete and the dish is about 15 feet up.

These things are possibilities but, as I was communicating to Rich, the DTV techs are really pushed to keep moving and "custom work" is best done by others.

See what another set of eyes comes up with....report back..let us know how it goes.

Joe

[Mertzen]

I'm wondering if I should just buy the under eave mount myself and call them back out or do they have these on hand?

I think this would be the way to go. Throw in a small tip and the chances of you install increase tenfold.

[joe diamond]

I'm looking at the many different types of under eave mounts right now. I am also seeing in other forums that many installers are pushing back on the under eave installations. I would think that the under eave mount with the (2) monopoles would be quite adequate for the slimline dishes.

RE the under eave..........with the larger dish they do need at least one monopole (two is better) but the monopoles will not give any support if they are attached to the same plane (on the same eave). You just get more holes.

If you have a tile roof you have to figure another way.
How is the truss end on the edge of the roof ?

Joe

[BattleZone]

I helped/advised another member on his undereave mount installation. He bought the one I recommended from http://www.universalsat.net/.

Here's one of his first posts:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123558

And once it was all done:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=135566

He's got some good pics.

[Daishi013]

Well, I called D* to reschedule the installation. It is set up for the 27th.

I walked around the block today to look at other installations. In the block I found (4) under eave slimline installations, (2) under eave small, round dish installations and (2) slimline attached to the common brick walls. Each of the (4) slimline under eave poles had both monopoles attached to the adjacent rafter tails.

Attached is a picture of the side of the house. The closer overhang is the eave/rafter tails of the garage. The second story eave/rafter tails look to be the exact same configuration as the garage. If the dish can be installed between the (2) second story windows I was thinking they could use the eave vent holes for the coax runs. From there it is only about a 25 ft. run in the attic and 3 ft. drop to the smart box. The electrical box is directly below those (2) windows as well for grounding.

16677

[dirtyblueshirt]

I'm not completely sure, but I'm guessing you'd have to buy and provide the installer with your own mount. If possible, check with your neighbors who have the slimline dish with the under-eave mound, and ask if you can take pictures, so you can tell the installer "this is what I want". There should be no reason any competent installer would deny this request. Good Luck!

[Azshawn]

I live in Chandler and had a simular problem. I wanted the dish mounted on the overhang of my two story house. I have large trees on both sides of my house. He wanted to bolt it on top of my patio cover. I said no can do, I am rebuilding it soon. Larger and higher ;). He then wanted to put a pole in the center of my yard. I said get real, I am getting a pool ;). I said I guess I have to stay with Cox. Magically a Overhang mount was ordered and is being installed tomorrow.

Good luck,
Shawn

[joe diamond]

I live in Chandler and had a simular problem. I wanted the dish mounted on the overhang of my two story house. I have large trees on both sides of my house. He wanted to bolt it on top of my patio cover. I said no can do, I am rebuilding it soon. Larger and higher ;). He then wanted to put a pole in the center of my yard. I said get real, I am getting a pool ;). I said I guess I have to stay with Cox. Magically a Overhang mount was ordered and is being installed tomorrow.

Good luck,
Shawn

Azshawn,

From what you said your installation would end with a NLOS notation. But things are changing. Until the last year or so there was a published FREE basic installation specification that covered a dish attached to the house by the mast that was shipped with the dish.

Recently HSP managers have said to install a FREE steel pole if there was a LOS( line of sight) need for using the pole.

Would you report back if you get a FREE second installer visit and a FREE adapter mount. I am trying to get a line on what is happening.

Thanks,

Joe

[randyk47]

I had some of the same problems as Daishi013 with my Slimline install a year ago. At the time I wasn't aware of the under eave mount so I had to come up different solution. Working with a private installer we finally built up a 2"x 8" fascia board with a length of 2" x 10" that spanned two rafter ends. We primed it and painted it the with the trim paint and screwed it to the existing fascia making sure to catch the rafter ends. I don't have exposed rafter ends so the eave mount, while nice, would have required some serious hacking and cutting to mount through the soffit. The Slimline has survived a whole year's worth of storms, etc., so it appears to be there to stay.

[Azshawn]

Installer on jobsite. I see a mount that is IN plastic, Mono poles, and the stock mount that came with the dish. I will post pictures once he has it mounted. I had no idea on how big this dish was going to be.

[randyk47]

Plastic? Hmm....don't think I've seen any plastic mounts. ?????

[Azshawn]

Plastic. LMAO. Sorry. I meant to say wraped in plastic. Pics in two sec.

[Azshawn]

Sorry. Cant post pics because i need two more post.

[Azshawn]

Sorry Cant post pics till I have one more post.

[AWAX1978]

I have a stucco house and had the dish installed a few months back. The installer actually installed the dish onto the stucco about 6 feet from the ground. I wasn't used to seeing that so I asked him what's up? He said it was new design of mounting brackets that they were using for stucco houses. This is most likely due to safety and ease of installation, but I think it is awesome! The back of our house faces south, so the dish is on the back of our house so no one sees it but us. I've always been used to the giant sleds mounted on the eaves of my house, so it was a nice change. Just my opinion, but it looks and works well.

[Azshawn]

http://members.cox.net/fastse-r/mount.jpg

[bobnielsen]

That'll do the job :)

[randyk47]

Looking good so far. Wish I'd been able to get to my rafters for my fascia mount but whatever works. :)

[Azshawn]

http://members.cox.net/fastse-r/dish.jpg

[Daishi013]

Just for comparison here is a picture of the mount used by most of my neighbors.

I think I might be missing a few things though. First, I can't make out a ground wire and second, I thought there were supposed to be (4) cables that ran from the dish.

[dirtyblueshirt]

Just for comparison here is a picture of the mount used by most of my neighbors.

I think I might be missing a few things though. First, I can't make out a ground wire and second, I thought there were supposed to be (4) cables that ran from the dish.

Can't help you on the ground wire, but the single line is because the SWM is now housed in the LNB itself. Nifty, huh?

[Daishi013]

Hey AZShawn,

Did the installer charge you anything extra for the under eave mount? My installer came early and wants to charge $65.

Thanks,

[BattleZone]

Hey AZShawn,

Did the installer charge you anything extra for the under eave mount? My installer came early and wants to charge $65.

Thanks,

That's about the going price, and they are NOT a standard item. Installers have to buy them themselves, and since DirecTV doesn't supply them, they can't "give" it to you.

[Daishi013]

Well, the saga continues.

After talking to his supervisor they agreed to install it for free. However, after getting up on his ladder he found that the rafter tails don't stick out far enough for the mount to fit (they stick out 8 inches and the mount was about 9-10 inches long). He was using a slightly different mount than what AZShawn shows. His supervisor told him to cancel the order for LOS.

I called DirectSat directly to see what they could do. They are telling me there is only (1) DirecTV approved under eave mount. That doesn't make sense because it didn't look like the mount used by AZShawn. When I told them this they said it was probably a different install company.

Also, I asked if the installer would use a mount that I buy. They could not guarantee that the installer would be willing to do this.

I would have never thought it would be this tough to install DirecTV on a new house when so many of the houses around me have it installed.

Has anyone had any luck with this under eave mount (as long as at least two monopoles are used with it): http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=KAUEM1&xzoom=Large-3#MORE

Thanks,

[BattleZone]

The one that's pictured attached to the house doesn't inspire my confidence, because it's been flared up to support the dish. The smaller pic looks like what I'd want.

The ones I use, and which the local HSP buys for California, are here:

http://www.universalsat.net/

We put up well over 100 of these, and not a single one failed or even needed realignment after the Mega Wind Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2008_Western_North_American_super_storm) we had in January. The cheapie ones DirecTV was using at that time broke left and right, resulting in a temporary "ban" on undereave mounts, and the eventual adoption in some areas of the clamp-on mount that they were probably trying to use on your house. The clamp-on mount is heavy, expensive, and much less versatile, as you've learned.

They'll have no problems putting it on one of these mounts, though. The pole needs to be plumb and you need 2 support arms. You usually have to drill through the inside face of the gutter and into the rafter tails to secure the support arms. The DirecTV monopoles will work, but Universal's arms are stronger.

[Daishi013]

IIP,

Thanks for the info. I am looking at the under eave J mount assembly from the company you recommended. Do you have any idea what the dimensions of the attach bracket are (looking at the picture I am guessing about 3 inches by 6 inches)? My rafter tails are 3.5 inches high by 8 inches long so I want to make sure it will fit. Also, no worries about the gutter - no gutters on my house.

As of right now I have canceled my order with DirecTV until we can figure out how to install the dish. The next soonest installation wasn't until Jan. 22nd anyway.

[RobertE]

Well, the saga continues.

After talking to his supervisor they agreed to install it for free. However, after getting up on his ladder he found that the rafter tails don't stick out far enough for the mount to fit (they stick out 8 inches and the mount was about 9-10 inches long). He was using a slightly different mount than what AZShawn shows. His supervisor told him to cancel the order for LOS.

I called DirectSat directly to see what they could do. They are telling me there is only (1) DirecTV approved under eave mount. That doesn't make sense because it didn't look like the mount used by AZShawn. When I told them this they said it was probably a different install company.

Also, I asked if the installer would use a mount that I buy. They could not guarantee that the installer would be willing to do this.

I would have never thought it would be this tough to install DirecTV on a new house when so many of the houses around me have it installed.

Has anyone had any luck with this under eave mount (as long as at least two monopoles are used with it): http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=KAUEM1&xzoom=Large-3#MORE

Thanks,

For the Slimline, there's a couple of approved under eve mounts as of the 10/08 list.

There is the Clamp Mount model 221-365 made by STEREN.

http://www.sterenusa.com/bssd/news/NPR_PDF/221-365clamponmount.pdf

There is also this under eave mount model DTVUEM4 made by PROBRAND.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=DTVUEM

[BattleZone]

IIP,

Do you have any idea what the dimensions of the attach bracket are (looking at the picture I am guessing about 3 inches by 6 inches)?

That's about right. At one time they were a little longer, but they've been adjusted to be able to fit on more houses. I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting it to fit.

Make sure you pre-drill; some rafter wood is great stuff, and some is dry, brittle crap that will crack from a hard look. Pre-drill your holes with a 3/16" drill bit and use 5/16" lag bolts, and you'll be good to go.