FMC-6 questions

[pstr8ahead]

I have installed many SWM setups in residential homes but never on a larger scale. I recently was asked to upgrade an MFH-1 system to MFH-2. I offered to look into it to see if I'd be getting in over my head. It seems pretty straight forward.

The building has 12 units. They need 4 tuners each. From what I've read so far it seems the FMC-6 with 6 SWM8 modules would be needed. The units range from 10' - 300' away. All home-runs. ODU will be less than 20' from junction.

1. When using an FMC-6 do you still need to use individual power inserters for each SWM module or does the FMC-6 handle that? I assume PI's go to SWM1 leaving SWM2 for the signal to splitter.

2. What type of amplifier(s) do I use for the 3 or 4 units farther than 200'? It would be very difficult if not impossible to insert a line amp in between the 300' run. From what I understand the SWM goes up to about 1800 MHz which should go a bit further than the AT9's 2150. Home-runs are quad solid copper.

Any extra information or advice would be greatly appreciated. If this is a success I will definitely look out for more opportunities. This is probably about the fifth time I have been approached. Here in the Los Angeles area, there are many opportunities. Buildings like these are too big for residential HSPs and too small for the big MDU companies.

[doctor j]

FMC-6 has inputs for 3 PI's
Minimum 2/FMC chassis recommended 3.
Try this site:
http://www.pdisat.com/mfh2.html
With full diagram as outlined 300 feet with good solid copper RG-6 probably ok

Doctor j

[yogi]

I have installed many SWM setups in residential homes but never on a larger scale. I recently was asked to upgrade an MFH-1 system to MFH-2. I offered to look into it to see if I'd be getting in over my head. It seems pretty straight forward.

The building has 12 units. They need 4 tuners each. From what I've read so far it seems the FMC-6 with 6 SWM8 modules would be needed. The units range from 10' - 300' away. All home-runs. ODU will be less than 20' from junction.

1. When using an FMC-6 do you still need to use individual power inserters for each SWM module or does the FMC-6 handle that? I assume PI's go to SWM1 leaving SWM2 for the signal to splitter.

2. What type of amplifier(s) do I use for the 3 or 4 units farther than 200'? It would be very difficult if not impossible to insert a line amp in between the 300' run. From what I understand the SWM goes up to about 1800 MHz which should go a bit further than the AT9's 2150. Home-runs are quad solid copper.

Any extra information or advice would be greatly appreciated. If this is a success I will definitely look out for more opportunities. This is probably about the fifth time I have been approached. Here in the Los Angeles area, there are many opportunities. Buildings like these are too big for residential HSPs and too small for the big MDU companies.

You need three 24v power supply. One power suppy for every two SWM.
A FMC-6 cost about $400.00. The power suppy's cost about $20.00.

If I were you. I would put a SWM-E4 (hold four SWM modules) with the cost of $165.00 (which needs two power supplies). So if you need more you can put another one in.

[bobnielsen]

If you need to add amplification, the Sonora LA141R (http://www.sonoradesign.com/images/sheet_LA141R.pdf) is designed to work with a SWM installation.

[pstr8ahead]

You need three 24v power supply. One power suppy for every two SWM.
A FMC-6 cost about $400.00. The power suppy's cost about $20.00.

If I were you. I would put a SWM-E4 (hold four SWM modules) with the cost of $165.00 (which needs two power supplies). So if you need more you can put another one in.

Thanks everyone. This has all been very helpful.
If I go the E4 route, do the two power supplies connect to the E4 or legacy 3?

[pstr8ahead]

FMC-6 has inputs for 3 PI's
Minimum 2/FMC chassis recommended 3.
Try this site:
http://www.pdisat.com/mfh2.html
With full diagram as outlined 300 feet with good solid copper RG-6 probably ok

Doctor j

Do you think the inline power inserter (PI-6S) or inline trunk amp (SA-6A) are necessary for my example?

Is the SA-6A, FMC-6 or E-4 polarity locking?

[doctor j]

Do you think the inline power inserter (PI-6S) or inline trunk amp (SA-6A) are necessary for my example?

Is the SA-6A, FMC-6 or E-4 polarity locking?


I use them in my personal home setup and they have not given any problem.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1849553&postcount=14

Only the PI-6S locks the polarity and makes wiring a lot easier, see color coded jumpers.

Doctor j

[doctor j]

Thanks everyone. This has all been very helpful.
If I go the E4 route, do the two power supplies connect to the E4 or legacy 3?


The power supplies connect to the e-4 module, then 4 coax jumpers(one to each SWM-8 module) gives power to the SWM in legacy port #3.


http://216.254.116.117/nas/adm/pdf_files/MFH-2%20Small%20Garden%20Style%20MDU%20SWM-E4.pdf

Doctor j

[doctor j]

Sonora Design is also an option.

http://www.sonoradesign.com/images/sheet_SWMBOX.pdf

They have a rack unit for up to 8 SWM modules to give you a bit of room for expansion.

They charge a lot for the SWM's themselves but the rest of their equipment is reasonably priced.

Doctor j

[pstr8ahead]

I saw the swmbox32 and 64, pretty cool but rather expensive . Where is the best place to purchase the parts I need? I've checked out solid signal, does perfect 10 carry everything?

if I need to amplify the farthest locations should I amplify the swm module out before the splitter with the sonora la141r?

[bobnielsen]

if I need to amplify the farthest locations should I amplify the swm module out before the splitter with the sonora la141r?

Yes, it is always better to amplify before any loss rather than after (better signal-noise ratio-->lower bit error rate).

[pstr8ahead]

Can I come out of the SA-6A in to hi freq splitters to feed two E-4s?

Thoughts on SA-6A vs. SA-6AL? I figure size vs. LEDs. doctor j, I see you have both, any other differences?

[AntAltMike]

Yes, it is always better to amplify before any loss rather than after (better signal-noise ratio-->lower bit error rate).
Not always so with digital signals. I haven't extensively analyzed the SWM signals, but with conventional, 950 to 1,450 MHz L-band. the manufacturers recommended -60dBm as the nominal signal floor and tests of early DBS receivers showed signal lock commonly being lost at about -65 or -66dBm but it could be recovered from as low as about -75dBm with post-loss amplification. The thermal noise floor measured over the Ku DBS bandwidth of 27 MHz is somewhere down around -100dBm, but those signals only needed a signal to noise ratio of about 8dB to be processible. This significantly differs from NTSC analog signals, which begin to show visible degradation once the signal to noise ratio drops below 46dB.

With L-band "Legacy" DBS, the signal typically left the LNB at around -30dBm, but the little "bullet" inline amplifiers typically began to excessively cross modulate at about -20dBm, so you couldn't safely put a 20dB inline amp right at the LNB.

I'm pretty sure that the Sonora 141r SWM line extender inline amp is engineered to be able to be placed right at the SWM, but you will be cutting it close, and since each doubling of the number of amps in a cascade increases the 3rd Order IMD by six dB, you can't safely put a Sonora line ext4ender both at the launch point and then a second one a few hundred feet further downstream. You'd probably have to pad the first inline amp by three dB to allow the system to accommodate a second inline amp further downstream.

[doctor j]

sa-6a used with MFH-1 setup.
tuning signal strength with leds done in master unit.
tuning the MFH-2 system is thus done best with the sa-6al via the leds, since the master unit is not part of mfh-2 system.
this optimizes the input signal .
MFH-2 manual says 300 ft ok if only to 2 way splitter at apt.

Doctor j

[doctor j]

Can I come out of the SA-6A in to hi freq splitters to feed two E-4s?

I think that would work fine.

Doctor j

[pstr8ahead]

A little off topic but pertains to my install, what is the difference in signal loss thru an sws2 splitter vs. an sws4 if two lines are needed and unused ports on sws4 are terminated?

[AntAltMike]

Splitters are splitters. The additional loss through an additional split at L-band frequencies is four to five dB. Quite often, the losses are uneven and creep up at the higher end of the frequency range.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

As AntAltMike says splitters are splitters but insertion loss also creeps up on you at the higher frequencies. Ditto insertion loss considerations for your directional couplers in distribution. Holland has some helpful info on this in their catalog. Design it, install it then do a line-out and run some level tests and you'll see what I mean. (you may find yourself going back & changing some tap values)

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