HR2X PIP

[JimLill]

I wonder why they haven't added a PIP function. They certainly have all that it would take in the box.

[LarryFlowers]

The current HR 's are not capable of PIP... you would have to hook 2 units to your PIP capable TV.


I wonder why they haven't added a PIP function. They certainly have all that it would take in the box.

[JimLill]

I wonder why they haven't added something. If they can have the menu up and the "little" pix, I might hope there'ds enough power there to put a pix up with a little pix too

[turey22]

I hope they dont do that...add PIP. I would hate it.

[JimLill]

I hope they dont do that...add PIP. I would hate it.

I don't watch shows in PIP but it is good for checking on things quickly........

[turey22]

I don't watch shows in PIP but it is good for checking on things quickly........

That is true...You do have a point there but on the other hand...one more issue you might have to call DIRECTV for.

[Steveknj]

If you are a sports fan, PIP is great to have, otherwise, I wouldn't use it. But from what people have told me on here, even though the technology exists to PIP a DVR, there is some patent issues that have prevented the HR series of DVRs to have it. Perhaps this has changed.

[harsh]

But from what people have told me on here, even though the technology exists to PIP a DVR, there is some patent issues that have prevented the HR series of DVRs to have it. Perhaps this has changed.I'm pretty sure that it isn't a patent issue.

The real issue is that there is only one video output stream on the DIRECTV receivers and you need two to do PIP or side-by-side.

PIG is overlaying a video stream on a graphics or text screen which isn't the same thing.

[Steve]

I wonder why they haven't added a PIP function. They certainly have all that it would take in the box.We recently beat this topic to death here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=144656 :) About 85% were in favor of PIP, citing varying degrees of usefulness.

/steve

[LameLefty]

I wonder why they haven't added a PIP function. They certainly have all that it would take in the box.

Nope. The Broadcom chipset in the HR2x cannot decode and display two streams at once.

[Max Mike]

I'm pretty sure that it isn't a patent issue.

The real issue is that there is only one video output stream on the DIRECTV receivers and you need two to do PIP or side-by-side.

PIG is overlaying a video stream on a graphics or text screen which isn't the same thing.

There is no patent issue just inexcusable stupid hardware planning and programmer issues… Dish DVRs have had PIP available for years and it is extremely useful for following sports.

There is no reason a two tuner HD DVR should lack PIP or split screen viewing, it is just a stupid oversight.

[harsh]

Not supporting PIP was almost certainly DIRECTV's conscious decision and not an oversight.

[jdspencer]

I personally cannot see the advantage of having PiP in a DVR. With the exception of sporting events. But, having two DVRs connected to a PiP enabled TV would be a better option.

[Grentz]

Not supporting PIP was almost certainly DIRECTV's conscious decision and not an oversight.

I would have to agree.

They choose the chipset to use and obviously knew of its features and limitations and picked it for a reason.

In my mind PIP has always been this feature on TVs and other devices that is always there, but no one ever really uses (besides a select few). I can see why Directv would focus on other features instead that would set their product apart (like Directv2PC, MRV, Network Features, etc.).

[BattleZone]

There is no patent issue just inexcusable stupid hardware planning and programmer issues… Dish DVRs have had PIP available for years and it is extremely useful for following sports.

There is no reason a two tuner HD DVR should lack PIP or split screen viewing, it is just a stupid oversight.

The only Dish DVRs that have PiP are the ones that support 2 TVs. For example, the ViP612, a single-TV DVR, does not support PiP.

As others noted, that's because PiP requires 2 output processors, and single-TV DVRs only have 1 output processor.

[Steve]

The Broadcom spec sheet (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics,-and-Receiver-Products/BCM7411) for the HR20's BCM7411 decoder chip claims:
Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery.

If what it appears to be saying is true, the lack of PIP does appear to be a design decision, rather than a hardware limitation. /steve

[Grentz]

The Broadcom spec sheet (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics,-and-Receiver-Products/BCM7411) for the HR20's BCM7411 decoder chip claims:
Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery.

If what it appears to be saying is true, the lack of PIP does appear to be a design decision, rather than a hardware limitation. /steve

Interesting, who knows though..you never know what is actually possible in the specific implementation on these specific receivers.

[TheRatPatrol]

I thought PIP was the "better than DLB" that was coming soon? ;)

But it would be good for sports.

[harsh]

I personally cannot see the advantage of having PiP in a DVR. With the exception of sporting events. But, having two DVRs connected to a PiP enabled TV would be a better option.That depends on your TV -- many cannot mix modes. If you've got two or more sources built into the DVR, why not have it so you can watch two of them? Running two DVR remotes and a TV remote seems silly; especially if you have to deal with an outboard sound system.

[dodge boy]

The only Dish DVRs that have PiP are the ones that support 2 TVs. For example, the ViP612, a single-TV DVR, does not support PiP.

As others noted, that's because PiP requires 2 output processors, and single-TV DVRs only have 1 output processor.

Not true Cable DVRS have PIP and only support 1 TV.

[harsh]

Not true Cable DVRS have PIP and only support 1 TV.IIP is absolutely correct about the current E* HD DVRS that his statement was in reference to.

[TomCat]

The Broadcom spec sheet (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics,-and-Receiver-Products/BCM7411) for the HR20's BCM7411 decoder chip claims:
Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery.

If what it appears to be saying is true, the lack of PIP does appear to be a design decision, rather than a hardware limitation. /steveThere is another factor in play, which is one of the reasons that drove dual-tuner DVRs.

Back in the day of single-tuner DVRs, it became cumbersome for the DVR to get its daily update without swiping the only tuner available. That, and the growing propensity for DVRs to be used into the wee hours caused a conflict between users and scheduled maintenance. There were a lot of complaints of folks who were watching live or in the buffer or recording late at night and the DVR kept wanting to autotune to a maintenance channel for updates, etc. If a customer watched (or recorded) every day from 2:00 AM to 6:00 AM, the updates could get pretty far behind and in some cases the guide info would even run out. If the box was left on and not even watched, it still had to wait for a timeout period of no remote input so it could make an educated guess that no one was really watching.

The dual-tuner DVR solved that problem. With a second tuner, there is a very small chance of someone using both tuners at the same time, either for recordings or for viewing, especially at 2 AM. This made a difference in the amount of nuisance calls to the call centers and also in the number of customers annoyed by the maintenance behavior. It also gives them a window to upload PPVs and other company spam into the DTV portion of the HDD unmolested.

Since PIP would mean that the viewer now has simultaneous active use of both tuners, that sort of reprises the original problem, so for that reason alone there is probably reluctance to implement it.

[inkahauts]

I'm pretty sure that it isn't a patent issue.

The real issue is that there is only one video output stream on the DIRECTV receivers and you need two to do PIP or side-by-side.

PIG is overlaying a video stream on a graphics or text screen which isn't the same thing.

Um, no.. The units do not have to be able to output different signals from different outputs on the back of the DVR. Is that how Dish works?

Ultimatetv decoded two streams inside the unit, and overlayed them, as the current units do for pig.. and then displayed it onscreen. Who knows if Directv plans on doing that at some point...

[tthunder38]

No one is gonna force you to use it if it is implemented.

[BattleZone]

Um, no.. The units do not have to be able to output different signals from different outputs on the back of the DVR. Is that how Dish works?

Ultimatetv decoded two streams inside the unit, and overlayed them, as the current units do for pig.. and then displayed it onscreen.

UltimateTV had 2 sat decoders, and could decode 2 sat channels at the same time. DirecTV's receivers can only decode a single sat channel. The PIG is a video overlay using video generated by the receiver, and is NOT the same as decoding 2 sat channels.

DirecTV chose to lower the cost of the receivers by not buying a second Broadcom chip to decode a second stream, which would have ONLY been useful for PiP.

Dish does include the second chip, but only because they run 2 TVs. They made the same choice as DirecTV, to only include a single chip, for the receivers that only output to 1 TV.

A big part of the reasoning is that people paid, and are willing to pay, premium prices for 3rd party equipment (like TiVos and UltimateTVs), but most aren't willing to pay the same amount for the provider's equipment. Plus, DirecTV wanted a broader installed base, and most will forgo PiP for a lower price. Thus, choosing not to include PiP was a good business decision, even if it is unpopular for a fraction of HR2x users.

[Steve]

[...]DirecTV chose to lower the cost of the receivers by not buying a second Broadcom chip to decode a second stream, which would have ONLY been useful for PiP[...]You could be right, but if that's the case, what do you think this line from the Broadcom spec sheet for the BCM7411 (HR20) decoder chip might be referring to?

Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery.

The link to the full specs is here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1936822&postcount=16), in response to your previous post. /steve

[DogLover]

You could be right, but if that's the case, what do you think this line from the Broadcom spec sheet for the BCM7411 (HR20) decoder chip might be referring to?

Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery.
The link to the full specs is here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1936822&postcount=16), in response to your previous post. /steve

In reading the descriptive text, it makes a point to talk about dual decoding of Mpeg-2, but doesn't include that point in the paragraph that talks about Mpeg-4 decoding.

Perhaps that's the limiting factor. If they can't do dual decoding on all channels, it lessens the usefulness. (As well as increasing support costs when users call to ask why PIP won't work with some channels.)

[CorpITGuy]

You know, it's funny...

DirecTV has all the sports packages and sells itself to Dish people as the sports fan's satellite TV service... yet it doesn't have PIP. :rolleyes:

Maybe someday!

[hasan]

No one is gonna force you to use it if it is implemented.

No, but we have to live with the code bloat that comes with it. In other words, it's a matter of priorities. How much of the unit's horsepower is devoted to a feature that is of very limited use? (for many).

There are a lot of things to do, a lot of things to fix, and plenty of speeding up to do...all of which compete with the resources required for PIP.

Simply thinking one would like a feature, has to be balanced against the overall impact of implementing that feature on the total functionality of the box...and that doesn't even consider the priorities for other features, programming time, etc.

In reality, there's more to "I want blah, blah, blah", than might first be thought, and those other variables may make any given feature request a very bad idea, in the larger scheme of things.

Then we get down to the micro level....I wouldn't devote one processor cycle to PIP...but that's just me.:)

[Steve]

In reading the descriptive text, it makes a point to talk about dual decoding of Mpeg-2, but doesn't include that point in the paragraph that talks about Mpeg-4 decoding.If we're looking at the same spec sheet, I'm not sure I see that. :) I've attached what I'm looking at below. I'm interpreting AVC to stand for H.264/MPEG-4. /steve

[LameLefty]

You know, it's funny...

DirecTV has all the sports packages and sells itself to Dish people as the sports fan's satellite TV service... yet it doesn't have PIP. :rolleyes:

Maybe someday!

I've been a Directv subscriber since 1997 and have had NFL ST every single season since then. I've never had PIP on a receiver and never particularly desired it either. :)

[Steve]

DirecTV has all the sports packages and sells itself to Dish people as the sports fan's satellite TV service... yet it doesn't have PIP. :rolleyes:Then we get down to the micro level....I wouldn't devote one processor cycle to PIP...but that's just me.I've been a Directv subscriber since 1997 and have had NFL ST every single season since then. I've never had PIP on a receiver and never particularly desired it either. :)FWIW, about 60% of 700+ voters in this (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=144656) poll said they would use it at least weekly, and 85% occasionally. /steve

[Throckmorton]

My D* UTV had PIP and I used it all the time. When I got my first HR-2x I was surprised there was no PIP but I figured it wouldn't be a big deal. It was. I miss it all the time.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[LameLefty]

FWIW, about 60% of 700+ voters in this (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=144656) poll said they might use it at least weekly. /steve

Hell, I think I'm one of the ones that said I might use it. The thing is, I also might not. :)

My D* UTV had PIP and I used it all the time. When I got my first HR-2x I was surprised there was no PIP but I figured it wouldn't be a big deal. It was. I miss it all the time.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Saying you haven't missed something is not the same thing as knocking it. It's merely pointing out that the subject matter is not seen as indispensable by everyone (including sports fans).

Now, to the point: no one has shown that the boxes are even capable of PIP for MPEG4 HD (which I believe is what the bottom line came down to the last time this topic came up a year or so ago). Wanting a feature the box cannot physically do is not likely to get us positive results. :)

[hasan]

My D* UTV had PIP and I used it all the time. When I got my first HR-2x I was surprised there was no PIP but I figured it wouldn't be a big deal. It was. I miss it all the time.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

I'm not knocking it, it just needs to be weighed against other priorities.

...and I've played with PIP for many years (I've had it setup for my TV for years, and it works very nicely) ...but I still have little need or appreciation for it. As a feature, I find it underwhelming, others may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I've played with it quite a bit over an extended period, and I'm unimpressed. If others like it, fine. Just make sure the benefit is weighed against its costs, (resources, both internal and external).

Many think CID is just wonderful. Seeing a list of phone numbers, or the phone number jump on the screen for an incoming call, strikes me about as interesting as watching paint dry. Again, it's all about balancing resources and effort.

From what I can tell, a LOT more people are interested in CID than PIP, but in both cases, the resource balance consideration needs to come first. I don't campaign against either (and helped test the former).

This discussion is one of the reasons we have a "Wish List"....and even if a given feature is #1 on the list will not ensure D* will implement it...as it always comes down to resource balancing on one hand and perhaps even company philosophy on the other.

As stated earlier, there's a lot more to "I want blah, blah, blah" than meets the eye.

[Uncle Lar]

I used to use the PIP ALL the time on my Dish 622. Not just for watching 2 sporting events, but for watching a non-sporting event (which my wife would want to watch) AND a sports event in the small window. When some big play would happen, I would pause the non-sports event, and instantly switch to the sports event to see "the big play". Then switch back and resume. I even drove my wife crazy sometimes by using the Dish PIP AND the TV's split screen mode to watch THREE programs at once. But this gets a little overwhelming on the screen, especially with closed captioning going. A little too busy.

[hancox]

No, but we have to live with the code bloat that comes with it. In other words, it's a matter of priorities. How much of the unit's horsepower is devoted to a feature that is of very limited use? (for many).

There are a lot of things to do, a lot of things to fix, and plenty of speeding up to do...all of which compete with the resources required for PIP.

Simply thinking one would like a feature, has to be balanced against the overall impact of implementing that feature on the total functionality of the box...and that doesn't even consider the priorities for other features, programming time, etc.

In reality, there's more to "I want blah, blah, blah", than might first be thought, and those other variables may make any given feature request a very bad idea, in the larger scheme of things.

Then we get down to the micro level....I wouldn't devote one processor cycle to PIP...but that's just me.:)


OK, but none have this has stopped mediashare, which has wasted (imho) a ton of "cycles"

other products (xbox, ps3, roku) do this at least as well for those with networked music (the small segment you say disqualifies pip), and most do it MUCH better

[DogLover]

If we're looking at the same spec sheet, I'm not sure I see that. :) I've attached what I'm looking at below. I'm interpreting AVC to stand for H.264/MPEG-4. /steve

You are right. I missed the AVC. This does seem to indicate the ability to decode 2 streams.

Is this the same chip used in the HR20's? I seem to remember it uses a slightly different (older?) chip.

[Steve]

You are right. I missed the AVC. This does seem to indicate the ability to decode 2 streams.

Is this the same chip used in the HR20's? I seem to remember it uses a slightly different (older?) chip.No the HR20 actually uses 2 chips. The CPU is the 7038, I believe, and the 7411 is the decoder. Earl posted a pic of it on the motherboard, which I've attached. /steve

[Steve]

When I researched the BCM7401, which is the single-chip CPU/DECODER used by the HR21, I noticed that the data sheet (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf) does not claim the same dual-stream decoding capability as the data sheet for the BCM7411 "decoder-only" chip used in the HR20's.

This could explain why DirecTV never implemented PIP on the HR20. When the HR20 first came out, the HR21 may have been "on the drawing board", and they knew they were not going to be able to support PIP on those boxes and didn't want models out in the field with different capabilities. Just my .02.

The HR21 may be a rare example of a "higher" model # product that may not have improved capabilities over its predecessor. /steve

[TomCat]

...This does seem to indicate the ability to decode 2 streams...Maybe yes, maybe no. But, 2 MPEG-4 HD streams, and at the same time? It says it has the capability of decoding dual streams, and it says it is a "dual-channel" AVC/MPEG-2 decoder. What is NOT stated definitively is whether the chip can simultaneously decode two MPEG-4 or AVC streams. For all we know it has only the capability of doing one MPEG-2 and one MPEG-4 at the same time. Also unknown is the architecture feeding it. DTV may not even feed the chip 2 streams at once, but one stream, and whatever format it is gets decoded.

[Steve]

Maybe yes, maybe no. But, 2 MPEG-4 HD streams, and at the same time? It says it has the capability of decoding dual streams, and it says it is a "dual-channel" AVC/MPEG-2 decoder. What is NOT stated definitively is whether the chip can simultaneously decode two MPEG-4 or AVC streams. For all we know it has only the capability of doing one MPEG-2 and one MPEG-4 at the same time...Either way, it's a moot point because there is no such ambiguity re: the HR21's chip. That spec sheet doesn't claim dual decoding... period. /steve

[TomCat]

Either way, it's a moot point because there is no such ambiguity re: the HR21's chip. That spec sheet doesn't claim dual decoding... period. /steveActually, its a moot point because none of the HR2x family has a PIP, regardless of it's internal potential. Period.

[hasan]

OK, but none have this has stopped mediashare, which has wasted (imho) a ton of "cycles"



You'll get no argument from me. It's all about priorities when it comes to limited resources. That's the only point I've been making. I'm not "against" any given feature. There's just no free lunch...they all cost resources. None of them should be approached cavalierly, or with myopia.

MediaShare
MRV
PIP
CID
WIDGETS
Interactive Do-Hickies
etc.

...all consume valuable resources. I just caution against dreaming up new demands, when it is apparent, at times, that the processor cycles are being eaten rather quickly. Box responsiveness is all over the map already (varying quite a bit by model). Adding non-essential features isn't helping. What is and isn't "essential" is open for debate, of course.

I'm just not comfortable with ever increasing, persistent demands for "yet another feature", as if there will be no impact on the "base" functions of the boxes. Don't get me wrong, I quite like some of the "ancillary" features...but there is a limit and there is a cost. The OP's request for PIP is just another one of them.

This is the reason for my lack of enthusiasm. PIP is just another potential offender.

[Steve]

[...]
MediaShare
MRV
PIP
CID
WIDGETS
Interactive Do-Hickies
etc.

...all consume valuable resources. [...]
This is the reason for my lack of enthusiasm. PIP is just another potential offender.I agree. Several of these add-ons distract from what I feel should be the primary mission of the HR: To be the best scheduling, recording, and TV watching appliance in the industry.

That said, to my way of thinking (and supported by polls), features like MRV, PIP, VOD and DLB would be consistent with that mission. They're all activities related to watching TV.

Widgets, Active Channel gimmicks and any form of interactivity (other than the ability to order PPV), are not.

I'm on the fence about Mediashare. In this day and age, the ability to stream digital music, photos and video to one's display has practically become a "must". Compared to dedicated media center appliances, however, DirecTV's implementation has a ways to go, IMHO. I almost wish they could implement it as an add-on appliance, like the AM21, so as not to distract from the performance and programming of the HR2x platform. Just my .02.

/steve