721 Pixelation, Losing signal [Archive]

TerryC

05-05-03, 02:42 PM

It's a hardware problem, IMO.

My first 721 lost lock on a channel here and there for short periods, at first. Then I started to lose the lock on more channels for longer periods of time. Eventually every single channel was lost on both tuners. It was totally useless. These problems occurred long after the most recent software upgrade.

After I got that first one RMA'd the second one lost lock on one transponder on one tuner. This was one week after receiving it. There were a handful of channels I couldn't watch, so it went to RMA land.

The third try seemed to be the charm. It worked fine (relatively speaking, of course) for months before I sold it and switched to DirecTV. So, even then I don't know for sure if that third 721 was immune from the problem.

BTW, I connected my 501 to one of the cables feeding the 721, then the other. Both worked fine. I then reconnected the 721 and the problem returned.

I'm sure that most 721s don't have this problem. But it's still a crap shoot whether you get one that doesn't have this problem and if you get one that does. This is unacceptable (especially for a $500+ machine), IMHO. Insist on not paying the shipping fee if you have to get an RMA. I didn't have to on either.

Jacob S

05-05-03, 02:54 PM

I agree on it being a hardware problem. There had been reports of this last year even and I have seen this problem last year myself. Now more people are seeing the problem because more people have 721's. Same ole bull crap that the 501's had I am suspecting where the signal would fade in and out then eventually go out completely.

Bobby Bearcat

05-05-03, 03:42 PM

Hmmmm.... my 5000 and 3000 units are experiencing lost signals and my signal strength is around 95 on both. Sounds like something is going on at Dish...

treiher

05-05-03, 04:01 PM

Boy I sure hate to hear that. If it's a hardware problem and the only solution is to RMA for a new unit, I lose all my recorded programs!! One thing I noticed, my 721 did not have this problem and worked fine for nearly 6 months. But about two weeks ago, we had a power failure and lost power for about 10 minutes. The T.V. and the 721 were on at the time. It seems like ever since then, we have been having the pixelation and sound problem. I wonder if losing the power while it was running damaged it in some way?

Bill Mullin

05-05-03, 04:09 PM

It appears that a new software version is downloading as I type this. If the problem was caused by the L1.09 software release, hopefully this will straighten out things.

Jason

05-05-03, 04:11 PM

I think it is a software issue because I have had these problems on and off since I got my 721. Sometimes I can go almost a month straight without having any problems so I doubt it is a hardware problem. If it was, then I would have this problem consistently and it wouldn't come and go and change in the severity of the problems.

treiher

05-05-03, 04:11 PM

What?!?!?! Could this be the long awaited L1.11/12 or whatever? Please confirm when it's complete. EVERYONE is waiting for this!

Jacob S

05-05-03, 04:18 PM

It is downloading to some receivers as we speak. It is NOT and I repeat NOT a 1.09 issue causing this. This has happened long before that software was out. It is highly likely that it is a hardware issue and this will cause Dish some big bucks if they have to have to swap out several receivers. RMA'ing it may not solve the problem because you will probably just get another receiver that will end up doing the same thing. They need to use better electronic components and quit being CHEAP!

treiher

05-06-03, 09:03 AM

Well, L1.11 is fully loaded on my 721 and I am still having the pixelation problem. Looks like my next step is to call Dish and look at going through the RMA hassle. Ugh!

Kevin Elm

05-06-03, 11:17 AM

I haven't watched much TV the last few days, but the problem seemed to have disappeared last night. I used PIP to swap tuners several times, it is frustrating that the problem seems to come and go.

BTW - I am on my 2nd 721. The original got RMA'd because it wouldn't download its initial software. On my 2nd UHF remote as well. The IR emitters on the first one got extremely hot. I wonder if they just pass the same bad hardware around and around!

Jacob S

05-06-03, 01:32 PM

I believe they not only pass the same bad hardware around and around but are still producing this bad hardware as well. Why dont they get it fixed right the first time? If they see the problem they should find the issue and resolve it and get replacement parts in which would not do the same, and get new suppliers. Dont you think it would be cheaper and a lot less hassle?

treiher

05-06-03, 10:01 PM

Well the pixelation on my system got really bad today. Finally called Dish Tech Support. They want to send somebody out first and check my installation. They think there might be a problem with the grounding, but I honestly don't know how much better it can be grounded. This outta be fun.

Jacob S

05-06-03, 10:24 PM

They have been saying that it needs to be grounded to the same rod that the electric is grounded to, that if you do not do this that it will cause the lightening to run towards your satellite receiver if you ground it elsewhere. I have heard a lot about this grounding issue lately when it comes to this problem, but dont know if they are just making this up as an excuse or what.

treiher

05-06-03, 10:37 PM

The guy I talked to said that the grounding itself might be the problem. That interference comes in through the ground, and he wanted me to unhook it! Which I did, and still no better. Problem I have with that theory is the receiver has been working fine for six months, same ground that it always has had. So I called them back and expressed my concerns about this grounding theory, and they said they still want the cabling checked. But I tried swapping the cables with my 301 and 501. No change, also swapped input 1 and input 2, and still the problem persists on input 1. So finally they said we should do an RMA if I want to . . . it was up to me. I said yes. This was very easy, they're shipping it to me UPS blue and I should have it by Thursday or Friday. I'll be sure and post if this solves the problem. I have to give them credit, they really seemed concerned about making me happy and were just trying to rule out all other possibilities.

Anyone else care to reinforce that I'm doing the right thing here? I feel like I kind of pushed them into the RMA, but I just don't see how it could be anything else but hardware at this point. Ofcourse, I'm really bummed about losing all our recordings, but I'll take that over what I'm getting now, which is very unwatchable at times!

Jacob S

05-06-03, 11:12 PM

So now they are not only say it could be because the system is not grounded, but because it is? They dont know what their talking about obviously.

Kevin Elm

05-07-03, 08:33 AM

The pixelation, audio dropout is back on my receiver, even after the download of Ver 1.11. Using PIP, I switched back to input 2. Input 2 seems to work fine.

Has anyone had the pixelation problem with input 2?

If this were a tuner/hardware problem, I would expect tuner 2 to be affected in at least some systems.

treiher

05-07-03, 10:31 AM

I can say without exception, my problem is limited to Input 1 only! I wonder if Tuner #1 gets used more as the primary tuner compared to #2. Maybe that is why Tuner #1 fails first. And I have seen some posts where it seems to start on Tuner #1 and then eventually it shows up in Tuner #2 as well. Also, a lot of people have been suggesting that because the problem tends to come and go, it must not be hardware problem. Not sure I agree with that. Hardware problems can be intermittent too.

Jacob S

05-07-03, 01:10 PM

That is something weird, that everyone seems to have the problem with the same tuner.

ericha

05-07-03, 06:10 PM

I just had a similar problem with Tuner 1. About 2 weeks ago it started to have problem with pixelization, and then I started to get messages of "Acquiring Signal from Tuner 1". Then the box started rebooting every 5 minutes. Fortunately that stopped after a few hours, and I started trying to troubleshoot the problem.

I started by checking the signal strength on tuner one, and it was bouncing up and down from 40 to 95. I then did a Check Switch, and discovered that the tuner couldn't properly identify the switch (I have an SW-64) on Tuner 1, although Tuner 2 was fine. The check switch results screen showed that I only had the even transponders on 110, and the odd transponders on 119, and didn't even see the 148 satellite.

I swapped cables from the switch to the two inputs on the 721, and did a check switch again--same results. I even swapped both inputs to a 3rd line from the switch, and repeated the check switch. Again, same results.

I've been limping along with what I've got. I can view pre-recorded shows on the 721, and see live TV by using Tuner 2 (by swaping to it via the PIP screen). I could also record programs on Tuner 2, by leaving Tuner 1 live. Now I'm done to just seeing pre-recorded shows on the 721, and seeing live TV on my other receiver (an upgraded 4700, which is working fine, but seems pretty clunky now), because the 721 doesn't think it has any channels to show (including 101!)--the guide lists are completely empty!

While this in theory could be a software problem, it seems much more likely that it's a hardware problem with tuner 1.
I called E* on Sunday, they agreed that it was a hardware problem, and shipped me a replacement unit (no charge, and with pre-paid return shipping) that arrived today. Hopefully it will work better! That $1.99/mo extended warranty is starting to sound like a real deal.

treiher

05-07-03, 07:35 PM

Same deal here. New 721 on its way, and no shipping charge. Should be here by Friday. I'll be sure and post back and let everyone know the results!

Jacob S

05-07-03, 09:24 PM

It may not do it right away, sometimes it takes a while before you start seeing the problems.

Kevin Elm

05-09-03, 08:59 AM

Tuner 1 on my 721 is now acting up continuously. I think it is time to call Advanced Tech Support for a replacement. Like ericha, I'm limping along. I showed the kids how to PIP to Tuner 2.

I hate losing the shows I've already recorded! At least it is not football seaon!

BTW - does anyone know for sure what they do with the old 721's??? I assume they factory recondition then send them out. Do they wipe the hard drives clean or just dump the software?

One of my LIL stations runs a late night infomercial for Cox cable. Maybe I'll PVR that for about a week straight before I send back the 721 as a dig at DishNetwork!

Kevin Elm

05-09-03, 09:17 AM

One more thing - can you request a new out of the box replacement? Or do you just get the crappy factory reconditioned ones? Which is better?

The replacement has the tuner only, no remote or instructions, so it must be a factory recondition.

I had problems with a brand new receiver too! This will be my 3rd receiver in 3 months.

Jacob S

05-09-03, 12:25 PM

They will send you a remanufactured unit until you have to get it replaced for the third time then MAYBE they will give you a new unit. When I went to get a 501 replaced for the third time I spend hours and hours on the phone to finally get it, and had to talk to the executive vice president or some high up to get it. Thats what it takes to get a new receiver, if your LUCKY!!! Good luck, your gonna need it. I ended up selling the new 501 for about half price just to get rid of it because I didnt want the same problems over and over again.

I would rather pay a little more than to deal with this kind of flunkiness over and over. Your not really saving any money if the receiver craps out on you after warranty or even if you have the extended warranty having to keep getting it replaced and paying $14.99 for shipping each time and having time where you have no pvr receiver to watch.

treiher

05-09-03, 10:12 PM

Ok, my turn . . . Just got the new or rebuilt (don't know for sure) 721 unit today. I have it sitting here in its unopened box. But the problem I have now is the pixelation/sound problem has completely stopped!! Nothing! After I got the commitment to send me a replacement unit, the problem has disappeared completely. Murphy's Law I guess.

So now I'm looking at swapping out the units, without really knowing for sure if it solved the problem. What I would really like to do, is swap out the units while the pixelation problem is occurring. That way, I can see if it goes away with the new box. The other night when it was happening, it was so bad and so frequent, there would have been little doubt it was a hardware issue if I could have swapped out the units then and see the problem go away.

I'm thinking of calling Dish, explaining the whole thing to them, and asking them if I could just sit on this one for a while and wait for the problem to come back. For the only reason that I really want to isolate this problem and I would think they would to.

What I am most curious about, though, is if anyone else has seen this problem go away recently. By looking at Kevin Elm's post, it seems that it hasn't. But I'm thinking if it goes away for a lot of people at roughly the same time, that points more to a signal problem. On the other hand, if people continue to have the problem . . . then maybe more of a hardware problem. Make sense?

Anyone who is having this problem care to comment?

Jacob S

05-09-03, 10:30 PM

They give you 10 days to have the bad receiver sent in or they will charge you for it. They will charge you refund all of it but 20% of the cost of the unit once they receiver the bad receiver. The best thing to do when a receiver has hard drive issues is to have it recorded to the hard drive then on the RA letter tell them that there is evidence on the hard drive that they can watch of the pixelating.

treiher

05-09-03, 10:44 PM

Why the heck didn't I think of that!!!!! I deleted the episode of 24 which was recored and was totally unwatchable. I'm going to search through some of the other recorded events to see if they captured this. Makes me mad though. That episode of 24 would have been a great example I could have referenced.

Jacob S

05-09-03, 11:26 PM

Just record a bunch of shows, fill it as full as you can, and eventually you will get something to pixelate. At first it will do it off and on and then later it will get worse and worse until it just will not work any longer.

When I just find a few shows that pixellates and send it in explaining that on it with the name of the show on the pvr events screen, I never get charged or have any problems with the RA doing this.

Big Bob

05-10-03, 12:11 PM

Treiher
Are then any trees over the top of your dish?
I was having very similar symptoms to what you have described. They got worse over the course of a week or so.
I tree had grown a limb about 30 feet up and away from my dish, and had grown a few leaves. Once I cut the limb away, the problems disappeared.

Remember, the satellites are higher in the sky than where it looks like the dish is pointing. Something like 21 degrees higher. (I am not sure of the angle. Someone will correct me I'm sure :))

Jacob S

05-10-03, 12:32 PM

That is a possibility, especially those that have a dish under a tree, but given the problems that Dish pvr's (501, 508, 721) have with tuners going bad, that is the most likely problem.

TomCat

05-10-03, 01:58 PM

It does indeed affect just tuner 2 on some units. In fact, until this thread I had seen only one instance reported that affected tuner 1 only, as a search of the forum will likely prove. Troubleshooting by swapping cables, etc. lead to the conclusion that the problem is inside the box and affects just tuner 2 (or just tuner 1 in some user's experiences). And it comes and goes, usually in a gradual pattern, affecting all channels equally.

Its easier to "limp by" as ericha puts it, on tuner 1, since that's the one single recordings default to when off (as well as viewing on power on).

They acknowledged this problem and promised a fix, as reported right here in this forum, and it is disheartening to hear that the problem still exists, many months later.

I don't consider RMA an option. First of all, there's no guarantee of a fix. Its a hassle. There's a strong possibility of a refurb that worked OK for 20 minutes on some low-end technician's bench not continuing to work properly once you get it. Plus, you have to either watch or offload whatever recordings are stored on your original unit, and if you're anything like me, you've had a minimum of at least 40-50 hours on it since November.

Face it. We're screwed!

Jacob S

05-10-03, 08:08 PM

Yep, your right, we're screwed, no refunds on the reciever, and a $14.99 shipping charge everytime their piece of junk fails. Every single PVR receiver Dish has come out with has had this problem, so I would NEVER EVER buy the 921 unit spending that kind of money in a unit that may do the same. It takes a while before you even find out if the units start doing it and you would have to wait for a while to see if others start seeing the problem as well.

Perhaps another reason for the delay in the 921 is that they figured they had better fix what they did wrong in the 501/508, and 721 receivers with the bad tuner issue.

mgavin

05-11-03, 02:07 AM

If you were to open up a 501 or a 508 and a 721 you'd find they use the identical tuners. They are on seperate PCBs in the 721 but they have the same parts in the same layout. That explains why there are similar problems with both. I don't believe any software update for the 721 can fix any of the tuner problems - its a hardware problem plain and simple.

treiher

05-11-03, 09:04 AM

BigBob, I do have trees near the dish, but I keep them very well trimmed back. Also, if that were the cause, I would think my other receivers (301 and 501) would be affected; and both Tuners on the 721 would be affected equally, rather than only one.

Jacob S, I have to tell you, I have received the replacement unit at no charge to me, and they are also covering the cost of returning the old one. Also, no mention of a 20% charge if they don't find anything wrong.

Still have not made the swap though. My old 721 is performing perfectly right now. Because everyone says it comes and goes, I'm really not sure what I am going to do now, and I am tired of thinking about it!

Jason

05-11-03, 09:29 AM

treiher,

I have had these problems on and off since I got my 721. I had a bad stretch where virtually every single show had pixellation and the 'acquiring signal' message. Lately, it has been good. I would say that the problem only happens 1% of the time whereas it used to be at least 75% of the time. But these problems come and go and last at different intervals when they do. That is why I know it is not hardware related and it is definitely a problem on Dish's end with the signal or something.

Like TomCat, I always have my PVR filled and will never take the gamble to RMA the receiver because most likely the problem will exist on every receiver eventually once you put it through the paces.

Jacob S

05-11-03, 01:34 PM

Your right, you would have seen the 301 and 501 affected if it was anything else other than the receiver causing this.

You are lucky that they did not charge you for the shipping. Sometimes they will waive the shipping and sometimes you have to really get onto them to avoid te shipping charge, while others get special treatment for some reason and dont have to go through with that.

There should be some type of notice that comes with the replacement receiver stating that there is some sort of restocking fee if it is not returned in 10 days. I am a retailer and I know about these charges because of what me and my customers have to pay.

How come have they not used a different tuner in the receivers that will not go bad and keep replacing them with the same faulty tuners? The dishplayers never like this to my knowledge. Also how come is it a particular tuner going bad and not both of them? That seems pretty odd.

Kevin Elm

05-12-03, 08:45 AM

No trees in our backyard or our neighbors at all. We have a straight shot to 110 & 119. But we still have the pixellation problem on tuner 1. Those thunderstorms that went through OKC have also knocked out the satellite several times. So I didn't call Dish yet.

Treiher - you may see the shipping charge on your next bill. Depends on the CSR you get. My first replacement 721 they didn't charge me, but they did charge $7.95 or something like that when I replaced the hot remote. Funny, but they didn't ask for me to send the old remote back. I did anyway so they wouldn't get me for the full cost of the remote.

Bill Mullin

05-12-03, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by ericha
. . . I started to get messages of "Acquiring Signal from Tuner 1".For some reason mine just says "Acquiring Signal", no mention of which tuner. How can you tell which tuner is giving me pixelation problems? And - since I only watch recorded shows, how can I force my 721 to only record off the good tuner (probably #2)?

Thanks, Bill

Kevin Elm

05-12-03, 11:47 AM

Bill - Please describe the screen you are seeing. When I get the "Acquiring Signal Tuner 1" message it is a black screen with white lettering. It does NOT look like the rain fade screen. (I've seen that screen some this week with all the storms!)

Unfortunately, you don't get to pick which tuner records the program. The only way I know to make it record on the good tuner is to PIP to the BAD tuner, then leave the unit on 24/7. The 721 will assume you are watching TV on the bad tuner and then record on the other tuner.

Bill Mullin

05-12-03, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
Bill - Please describe the screen you are seeing. When I get the "Acquiring Signal Tuner 1" message it is a black screen with white lettering.Black/white, just like yours, but without the tuner ID.

The only way I know to make it record on the good tuner is to PIP to the BAD tuner, then leave the unit on 24/7. The 721 will assume you are watching TV on the bad tuner and then record on the other tuner. That's what I thought, and since I seldom record 2 shows at once, I can leave the 721 on 24/7. Is there a quick/simple way for me to figure which tuner is live and which will record?

Dad3Kids

05-12-03, 01:41 PM

I had this exact problem, mine always existed on input 2, I switched the inputs and still it occurred on input 2. I had a new unit sent out and by the time it arrived the problem had went away. So I sent the replacement unit back, but then the problem returned. So I had them send another 721 out and this time I switched the units out and sent my 721 back to them. We have not seen the problem since we hooked up the new 721. The problem is very frustrating when it occurs. I'm not sure it this helps, but in our case it definitely was the 721. If you sign up to have your bills paid with a credit card then the 14.99 to ship the 721 then the fees are waived.

Jacob S

05-12-03, 01:42 PM

That is one thing that does puzzle me how it will sometimes happen and sometimes it will not happen.

Kevin Elm

05-12-03, 02:06 PM

Is there a quick/simple way for me to figure which tuner is live and which will record?

Not that I know of. I've only had my 721 a few months though. The software has to resolve this problem at the time the event comes up for recording.

We have not seen the problem since we hooked up the new 721

How long has the new unit been in service? I had this one for about 6 weeks before it showed up.

Dad3Kids

05-12-03, 03:31 PM

I had my first 721 since November 2002 and the replacement unit has been in place for 2 or 3 weeks. The first 721 showed the problem on and off for the last 6 months.

treiher

05-12-03, 08:19 PM

Thanks everone for all the feedback! Think I'm going to go ahead and swap it out. I know not everyone is convinced that it is a hardware issue, but it sounds like many people who have this problem have eventually had it return even after it disappears for awhile. Only those that have swapped out the receiver have seen it go away all together.

If you sign up to have your bills paid with a credit card then the 14.99 to ship the 721 then the fees are waived.

I am on credit card bill pay, so that might explain no shipping charge, as far as I know.

But these problems come and go and last at different intervals when they do. That is why I know it is not hardware related and it is definitely a problem on Dish's end with the signal or something.

I keep hearing this argument. Now I am no more an expert than the next guy, but just because the problem is intermittant is not proof in my mind that it is not a hardware problem. Hardware problems can come and go too. Also, because it only happens on Tuner 1, and by swapping to Tuner 2 gets me a clean picture, further suggests hardware to me. Combine that with others have Tuner 2 problem only, and can swap to Tuner 1 to clean picture. I think there must be quirky tuners out there. Some boxes have it in the #1 slot, some in the #2 slot, and some unlucky people get both.

I really wish mine would start acting up again (can you believe that)! That way I could swap out and see if the new unit does not have the problem. But my 10 days are running out. Gotta make a move!

Mike Russell

05-12-03, 10:35 PM

I'm having the same problem on my 721 that everyone here is talking about. Seems like I can here it chirp sometimes when it's acting up. I've never had it to reboot on it's while I was watching it. It started about a month ago.I'm just hopeing its a software problem. I'm going to give it a little more time before I call unless it gets worse.

Jacob S

05-12-03, 11:36 PM

Wouldn't both tuners go bad if it was the tuners were known for going bad? Maybe its something other than a tuner because of this, something that connects to the tuner and that this may be causing the same issue in the 501/508. That is something that has been puzzling me.

I think I heard that if you have credit card autopay that you may not have to pay the shipping charges, either that or they automatically charge your credit card for it. If they do that then they should tell you about the charge before they do it.

treiher

05-13-03, 09:03 AM

I really don't know Jacob S. Last time I designed a Satellite Receiver was . . . . never! :) I'm speculating that they have poor yield on individual tuners. Some are bad, some are good. And because the problem is so intermittent, they are slipping past their outgoing Quality Control. Think about how hard it is for us to get the problem to reproduce and imagine how they would test for it. I know they are the experts and should be able to figure that out, but I am sure this is a challenging problem for Dish.

If shipping charges show up on my autopay, I'll be sure and let you know!

Bill Mullin

05-13-03, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
The only way I know to make it record on the good tuner is to PIP to the BAD tuner, then leave the unit on 24/7. The 721 will assume you are watching TV on the bad tuner and then record on the other tuner. While setting this up, I put both the main screen and the PiP screen on the same channel. While watching with the PiP screen open, I had about 10 seconds of pixellation on the full screen, while at the same time no problem in the PiP picture. The problem went away before I was able to swap PiP and the full screen picture, but at least this tells me that one tuner may have the problem while the other is clean. But, unlike others I don't find this to be proof positive that the problem is in the hardware. I have over 35 years computer experience, and have found that intermittent hardware problems with digital circuitry is extremely rare, whereas intermittent software problems are very common.

I'll keep experimenting and will report any interesting findings here.

- Bill

toricred

05-17-03, 08:30 AM

Is it possible that the problem is with using legacy LNBs? Is anyone having the problem with DishPro LNB's?

Bill Mullin

05-17-03, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by toricred
Is it possible that the problem is with using legacy LNBs? Is anyone having the problem with DishPro LNB's? Mine is a DishPro LNB.

Kevin Elm

05-17-03, 11:27 AM

Now my 721 has stopped acting up! Kids were watching cartoons this morning on Tuner 1. We got maybe 1 audio dropout, but that happens occasionally even on the 4900.

I was ready to call E*, but now I don't know what to do!

I have a new legacy quad LNB.

Jacob S

05-17-03, 12:24 PM

It will happen with legacy and dishpro lnbf's. Also it will happen then stop then start happening again. Perhaps all those that are having the problems should report the problems when they start happening so that we can see if everyone is having the problems at the same time and start noticing some type of pattern. Dish should be calling their customers and doing something like this to get the problems resolved.

toricred

05-17-03, 03:31 PM

I was having terrible problems with it last night during the third period of the Mighty Duck game.

TomCat

05-17-03, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Bill Mullin
For some reason mine just says "Acquiring Signal", no mention of which tuner. How can you tell which tuner is giving me pixelation problems? And - since I only watch recorded shows, how can I force my 721 to only record off the good tuner (probably #2)?

Thanks, Bill

Once the show is recorded, on playback "Acquiring Signal" is displayed. During the live recording, "Acquiring Signal Tuner 2" (or 1) is displayed.

Here's how it appears to work:

Tuner 1 is the primary tuner. When you power on, you're looking at T1. Also, if the unit is off, single recordings go to T1.

A recording that starts after another recording starts and is in progress goes to T2. Also, individual timers that fire go to T2 if the unit is already on (so that the live program currently on T1 is not disturbed).

I think that when 2 timers are set to fire, the one with the lower channel number goes to T1, but I'm not sure. Also, this might depend upon whether the unit is on at the time.

Assuming you are viewing T1, you can change to T2 by opening the pip, swapping, and closing the pip.

In your case, if indeed you are correct and T2 is your good tuner, the workaround to minimize problems for you is to first only set non-overlapping timers. If you pip at all, its a good idea to power off, power on before timers hit (forces the live program to T1 and the timer to T2). Then, simply leave your 721 powered on whenever a timer fires.

If T1 is your good tuner, simply make sure that the unit is off when timers fire. If you have consecutive timers set you can leave it off for the first one and then turn it on and leave it on if you want, which forces the live channel to T2 and ties it up, also forcing new timers to go to T1. Or, power up and do a pip/swap/pip (forces the live channel to T2) and let the timers fire at will. Of course overlapping timers run the risk, so never set them if possible.

Its also easy to figure which tuner is the culprit. Power off, power on, pip, swap, change the screen to the identical channel as the one now in pip, and wait. In this configuration, pixellation on the main screen means T2 is bad, and vice versa, but it will eventually display the "Aquiring..." thing letting you know.

Jacob S

05-18-03, 12:34 AM

Question is, what can be done about this, since RMA'ing these obviously dont always help in the longterm.

Bill Mullin

05-18-03, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by TomCat
Here's how it appears to work:Great write-up Tom, thanks. I've been leaving my 721 on and set to T1 lately, forcing all recordings to go to T2. This has substantially improved the quality of my recordings, although it has not eliminated the problem. Of course this means that I can no longer record 2 programs at the same time, but I can live with this until a permanent fix is identified.

Originally posted by Jacob S
Question is, what can be done about this, since RMA'ing these obviously dont always help in the longterm. What's worse is that their advanced telephone support people deny there's a widespread problem!

Jacob S

05-18-03, 02:34 PM

Yeah, that is what makes me mad, they say ''this is the first time I have ever heard of this problem" which really ticks me off.

Bill Mullin

05-19-03, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Bill Mullin
I'll keep experimenting and will report any interesting findings here.Today I was watching HBO (#300) live and it started pixelating. So I turned on PiP to the same channel and saw that the PiP picture was clear at the same time that the large picture was pixelating. I swapped the two and now the big picture was clear while the PiP picture was pixelating. I guess this shows that only one tuner has the problem, although I'm not sure if the culprit with my system is T1 or T2. Of course this test might only be telling me that I'm going to have a pixelation problem when watching the same channel on two different tuners at the same time . . . I dunno.

Until this problem goes away forever, I'm leaving my 721 turned on and set to the bad tuner, then recording only one show at a time. BTW - I still don't take all this as proof positive that the problem is hardware . . . software is still the likely culprit, IMHO! ;)

treiher

05-19-03, 02:32 PM

Well hardware, software, or whatever . . . I completed my swap out yesterday and sent my other unit back. Had to do it, I was running out of time on my 10 days. Time will tell if the pixelation shows up on this one. I'll be sure and report back if it does!

Bill Mullin

05-19-03, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by treiher
Time will tell if the pixelation shows up on this one. I'll be sure and report back if it does! Please do, thanks!

Jacob S

05-19-03, 05:19 PM

It may take a while until the problem shows up, could be weeks or months. What would be interesting is to see if it happens more out of the box than we think or if this is some part that works for a while then quits working.

If the part could be found then perhaps it could be something that one could buy at radioshack that would never go bad again vs. Dish replacing it and keep going bad over and over and over. The bad thing about it is that you would void your warranty and not be able to get an extended warranty that way.

Cheapbyte

05-20-03, 10:55 PM

About four weeks a go, my tuner 2 started the Aquiring sat signal on tuner 2. It wasn't bad at first, then progressively got worse. If I had the bad tuner in the main window, it would crash the 721 due to corrupt data. After monkeying around with tech support, they said they would send a RMA unit to me. I installed it and had some issues getting the L1.11 update, but once I did and rebooted everything seemed fine. I have noticed a few times I have gotten pixelation, but nothing like what I was getting before on tuner 2. When I would watch the signal on the point dish screen for tuner 2, it would be at 95, then drop for a split second to 0, then pop back up to 95. There are no trees,wires or anything else in the way to cause this. It did not matter if I switched cables, the issue stuck with tuner 2.

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
The pixelation, audio dropout is back on my receiver, even after the download of Ver 1.11. Using PIP, I switched back to input 2. Input 2 seems to work fine.

Has anyone had the pixelation problem with input 2?

If this were a tuner/hardware problem, I would expect tuner 2 to be affected in at least some systems.

Cheapbyte

05-20-03, 11:01 PM

You want to make Dish replace the unit. There is something wrong with the receiver and you can verify it by swapping the cables. If the issue persist with the same input, you know what the problem is. Go into the point dish menu and select sat input 1 and transponder 9 or higher and watch the signal for a few minutes, switch to sat input 2 and do the same. See if your signal goes from your high to 0 then pops backup to normal strength.

Originally posted by Bill Mullin
Today I was watching HBO (#300) live and it started pixelating. So I turned on PiP to the same channel and saw that the PiP picture was clear at the same time that the large picture was pixelating. I swapped the two and now the big picture was clear while the PiP picture was pixelating. I guess this shows that only one tuner has the problem, although I'm not sure if the culprit with my system is T1 or T2. Of course this test might only be telling me that I'm going to have a pixelation problem when watching the same channel on two different tuners at the same time . . . I dunno.

Until this problem goes away forever, I'm leaving my 721 turned on and set to the bad tuner, then recording only one show at a time. BTW - I still don't take all this as proof positive that the problem is hardware . . . software is still the likely culprit, IMHO! ;)

Cheapbyte

05-20-03, 11:05 PM

I was wondering if anyone else knows there seems to be different versions of the firmware on Dish PVR721. I originally purchased my 721 November of 2002. I just had it replaced with an RMA unit and noticed on the diagnostics menu several new features. Diagnostics test for tuner 1 and tuner 2 and a calamity check (whatever that is). Does anyone else have these options?

Cheapbyte

05-20-03, 11:11 PM

Unless you have the firmware that lets you test tuner1 and tuner2 (which then throws you into the tuner) you could always unplug one input and then you would know which input you are watching.

Originally posted by TomCat

Once the show is recorded, on playback "Acquiring Signal" is displayed. During the live recording, "Acquiring Signal Tuner 2" (or 1) is displayed.

Here's how it appears to work:

Tuner 1 is the primary tuner. When you power on, you're looking at T1. Also, if the unit is off, single recordings go to T1.

A recording that starts after another recording starts and is in progress goes to T2. Also, individual timers that fire go to T2 if the unit is already on (so that the live program currently on T1 is not disturbed).

I think that when 2 timers are set to fire, the one with the lower channel number goes to T1, but I'm not sure. Also, this might depend upon whether the unit is on at the time.

Assuming you are viewing T1, you can change to T2 by opening the pip, swapping, and closing the pip.

In your case, if indeed you are correct and T2 is your good tuner, the workaround to minimize problems for you is to first only set non-overlapping timers. If you pip at all, its a good idea to power off, power on before timers hit (forces the live program to T1 and the timer to T2). Then, simply leave your 721 powered on whenever a timer fires.

If T1 is your good tuner, simply make sure that the unit is off when timers fire. If you have consecutive timers set you can leave it off for the first one and then turn it on and leave it on if you want, which forces the live channel to T2 and ties it up, also forcing new timers to go to T1. Or, power up and do a pip/swap/pip (forces the live channel to T2) and let the timers fire at will. Of course overlapping timers run the risk, so never set them if possible.

Its also easy to figure which tuner is the culprit. Power off, power on, pip, swap, change the screen to the identical channel as the one now in pip, and wait. In this configuration, pixellation on the main screen means T2 is bad, and vice versa, but it will eventually display the "Aquiring..." thing letting you know.

Jacob S

05-21-03, 12:49 AM

Interesting how you seen new menu options. I wonder if that is software they put into the software to test them themselves before shipping them out to the customer as a replacement or if if hey decided to put that in all the replacements to do further testing than what is being done now in the current receivers without having to swap cables.

Cheapbyte

05-21-03, 12:36 PM

I will take a picture and post a link showing the new diagnostic options tonight.

Originally posted by Jacob S
Interesting how you seen new menu options. I wonder if that is software they put into the software to test them themselves before shipping them out to the customer as a replacement or if if hey decided to put that in all the replacements to do further testing than what is being done now in the current receivers without having to swap cables.

Cheapbyte

05-21-03, 08:16 PM

OK, here is a picture of my PVR721 diagnostics screen.

http://www.cheapbyte.com/images/pvrdiag.jpg

Does anyone else have these options?

Originally posted by Jacob S
Interesting how you seen new menu options. I wonder if that is software they put into the software to test them themselves before shipping them out to the customer as a replacement or if if hey decided to put that in all the replacements to do further testing than what is being done now in the current receivers without having to swap cables.

TomCat

05-24-03, 01:26 PM

A new wrinkle:

Today I turned my 721 on and it began to pixellate and gave me the dreaded "Acquiring signal sat input 2" screen. Nothing new there, except if my original post was correct, I should have been on T1. So, although it seems as if turning the unit off and back on forces the unit to T1, here is empirical evidence that this is not always the case, although this is the first time I've seen that. This may also explain why I have a couple of pixellated recordings that were individual non-overlapping timers that fired when the unit was off. Now I don't know what to believe.

Bill Mullin

05-24-03, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by TomCat
Now I don't know what to believe. Ditto! The only way I've found to be somewhat safe is to actually observe the large picture when it's pixelating and the PiP frame is clean, then DO NOT turn off the 721 for any reason. I've found that if I turn it off for even an instant, it's no longer a definite that the main picture will be the one that pixelates.

This problem is such a pisser, I'd change services in an instant if there were a better alternative. I know - some of you are saying there are good alternatives. What I want is a HUGE number of premium movie channels (no other programming of any nature), a PVR that will record 80+ hours, and DD 5.1 or PCM sound. AFAIK, only Dish is now providing all these capabilities.

- Bill

Jacob S

05-24-03, 06:36 PM

Perhaps getting a standalone Tivo or using the computer to do these recordings is our only alternative if we want to stay with Dish.

mgavin

05-24-03, 09:01 PM

Cheapbyte,

The additional diagnostic options show up when there has been some sort of failure detected in the 721.
Can you verify on your system info screen the version ends in -N and not -F?
Also, if you perform a set defaults on the box the extra options will most likely be gone.

Jacob S

05-24-03, 11:59 PM

Perhaps this is why they ask for the software version sometimes when going through tech help on the phone.

Bill Mullin

05-25-03, 06:24 PM

I've been doing a LOT of experimenting with the 721 pixelation problem during the last week, and I've made a couple of interesting observations. The first is that on my 721, BOTH T1 and T2 are being affected by pixelation and sound dropouts, but never more than one tuner at a time. Unfortunately this makes it tough for me to figure out which tuner to put in the foreground when I leave the 721 on before recording. The other observation is that I haven't seen an "acquiring signal" message since 1.11 was released.

Does all this mean that we have a software problem and Dish is making strides in fixing the bugs? I think so, but who really knows? :(

- Bill

hojni

05-25-03, 06:48 PM

Just out of curiosity, what switches are being used with the 721's experiencing the pixelization?

I have had no problems so far, but use a DishPro Switch 34. I'm just trying to figure out if this is something we are all going to experience at sometime or if there is some common demoninator besides the 721.

mgavin

05-25-03, 07:24 PM

Have the people that are experiencing the pixelization tried going to the point dish screen when they are having the problem?
What I'm suggesting people try is to count through the transponders one tuner at a time on 119 and then 110. When you change a transponder you'll see the text size(font) get just a little smaller when the 721 has successfully tuned the requested transponder. I have seen a 721 have a problem with one tuner not being able to tune one specific transponder. When you'd try to change to that transponder it would actually skip it or go back to the transponder it was on. So you could select the transponder and it would show the number but then instead of the font getting a little smaller indicating it had successfully tuned that transponder it would switch to another one by itself. This was always repeatable if the 721 had been running more then a few minutes(warmed up) The fix was to replace the 721...
It was only on one tuner and one specific transponder on that 721 - so the problem wasn't seen very often.
If your 721 happens to do the same thing call Dish and have it replaced...

sneakymoose

05-26-03, 12:09 AM

I don't know if this problem is related to the one I was experiencing, but just in case... My 721 is hooked up directly to each of ports on the Dish Pro twin that came with the system. I have not seen the transponder skipping number symptom that you are describing, mgavin, but I have seen brief (up to 1 minute) pixellation followed by acquiring signal occuring between approximately 10am and approximately 1-2pm on each of the days when I've actually been home during these times and trying to watch TV (about 5 times in past month). All this since the 1.11 software, and never before. Odd transponders don't lock on, on either input 1 or 2, when this happens. I've described this in more detail in another thread.

Jacob S

05-26-03, 12:30 AM

Finally everyone else sees these problems and that it is more widespread, maybe if it is widespread enough Dish will actually do something about it.

Bill Mullin

05-26-03, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by hojni
Just out of curiosity, what switches are being used with the 721's experiencing the pixelization?I just went out and checked mine, but did not see a model number anywhere. It did say it is a "Dish digital LNBF", with 2 outputs: 110 and 119. This is the same switch that was delivered with my original 501, and since I only have a single receiver, it seemed to be all I'd need with my 721.

Cheapbyte

05-26-03, 09:44 PM

With my pixelation problem, I would go to the point dish screen and sat input 2 would consistently go from 95 to 0, then pop back up to 95. My pixelation got so bad at one time that I could not have tuner 2 in the foreground because it would cause the system to crash (due to corrupt data it was trying to record). Since having my 721 replaced, I have not seen the 95 to 0 signal problem (which happened on every single transponder). I have noticed a pixelation here and there, but I am not sure what tuner. It seems replacing the unit has resolved my issues which steadily got worse. With the number of posts here and else where on the Internet, it appears Dishnetwork has a possible design flaw or bad parts. I know a lot of computer motherboards recently have had issues due to some stolen electrolytic capacitor formula that has been used in parts purchased. I wonder if Dishnetwork purchased these bad CAPS too? If it didn't void the warranty, I would open the unit and look for the tell tale signs of leaking electrolytic fluid. If your unit is under warranty, I would make Dishnetwork keep replacing it until it works correctly.

Originally posted by mgavin
Have the people that are experiencing the pixelization tried going to the point dish screen when they are having the problem?
What I'm suggesting people try is to count through the transponders one tuner at a time on 119 and then 110. When you change a transponder you'll see the text size(font) get just a little smaller when the 721 has successfully tuned the requested transponder. I have seen a 721 have a problem with one tuner not being able to tune one specific transponder. When you'd try to change to that transponder it would actually skip it or go back to the transponder it was on. So you could select the transponder and it would show the number but then instead of the font getting a little smaller indicating it had successfully tuned that transponder it would switch to another one by itself. This was always repeatable if the 721 had been running more then a few minutes(warmed up) The fix was to replace the 721...
It was only on one tuner and one specific transponder on that 721 - so the problem wasn't seen very often.
If your 721 happens to do the same thing call Dish and have it replaced...

Cheapbyte

05-26-03, 09:49 PM

I checked and my software ends in N and tried the factory reset. I still have the extra diagnostic options. Everything is working fine, so I am not complaining :) Strange though, the menu options showed up on the original software that came with the unit and persisted through the upgrade to L1.11

Originally posted by mgavin
Cheapbyte,

The additional diagnostic options show up when there has been some sort of failure detected in the 721.
Can you verify on your system info screen the version ends in -N and not -F?
Also, if you perform a set defaults on the box the extra options will most likely be gone.

mgavin

05-27-03, 01:03 AM

I've had it as well - but it went away after a reset of some sort, perhaps it was the full NVM reset in the diag screen. I really think the pixelation is a hardware fault so if you see it more then once or twice have the hardware replaced. After having the one I had with the bad tuner replaced I've never had any breakup at all - perhaps there aren't really that many bad ones but E* keeps sending returned units out as refurbs when they still have occasional problems...At the price of the 721 I think everyone deserves a unit that can atleast hold a signal as well as a good'ol 2700...

Kevin Elm

05-27-03, 09:55 AM

My problem is back over the weekend. Not as bad as before, but back nonetheless. I did notice that when it pixelates the system temperature is always on the high side (118 F or so). I might try putting an external fan blowing on the system to see if I can make the pixellation go away.

shadowman11

05-27-03, 01:41 PM

Had my first experience last night with a recorded movie that momentarily fell apart like something from the Matrix, hope this doesn't mean I will see more of it due to hardware failing,

treiher

05-27-03, 04:11 PM

For what it's worth, my replacement 721 has been running over a week now and no pixelation problem. I did have a bug right after it started up with all the new timers I had to program. All the timers were firing 5 hours ahead of schedule, but a system reboot seems to have fixed that. Only time will tell if the new hardware avoids the ongoing and randomly occuring pixelation problem, but so far no sign of it. I will be sure and post back here if it reappears.

Jacob S

05-27-03, 08:11 PM

A system reboot fixes the problem temporarily I have noticed then it starts happening again later, sometimes its fine sometimes its not, and it would do it on tuner 1 then after the reboot on tuner 2 it done it like crazy then stopped. This is very strange.

One thing I have thought about is that it may not be a tuner since I would think if there was a tuner issue then we would see problems in the 301's as well. This would answer the question as to why it does it on one tuner then another sometimes and come and go in how it could be a tuner if it does it like this.

Kevin Elm

05-29-03, 12:15 AM

I've noticed the pixellation problem only happens when the tuner is at the higher temp. After the 1.12 download I checked the temp, 109 F, and no pixellation. Last night it was pixellating moderately on tuner 1, and the temp was 118 F. Could be coincidence. But next time I have the problem and high temperature I'll put an external fan blowing on the receiver and see if that fixes it.

Big Bob

05-29-03, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
I've noticed the pixellation problem only happens when the tuner is at the higher temp. After the 1.12 download I checked the temp, 109 F, and no pixellation. Last night it was pixellating moderately on tuner 1, and the temp was 118 F. Could be coincidence. But next time I have the problem and high temperature I'll put an external fan blowing on the receiver and see if that fixes it.

Make sure to check the temperature when things are working normally as well.

TomCat

05-31-03, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Bill Mullin
I just went out and checked mine, but did not see a model number anywhere. It did say it is a "Dish digital LNBF", with 2 outputs: 110 and 119. This is the same switch that was delivered with my original 501, and since I only have a single receiver, it seemed to be all I'd need with my 721.

And mine is a new quad LNB, bought and installed at the time I got the 721 (August). So, at least we know its not limited to a particular LNB.

I have been seeing a lot less px lately, but it is still there. As to the signal strength question, many of us have already reported that signal strength is high, in other words, not a cause of the problem.

Bill Mullin

05-31-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by TomCat
And mine is a new quad LNB, bought and installed at the time I got the 721 (August). So, at least we know its not limited to a particular LNB.

I've done a lot of testing since my last post, and finally came to the conclusion that I have a problem in T2 in my 721. I called Dish advanced support, and after itemizing the steps I went through, they agreed with me and are sending a replacement. I did some bitching about all the missed programming, but was told that they did not give refunds for lost recordings. BUT, they did not charge me the normal $14.95 for shipping the new 721, in order to somewhat cover the lost programs.

Once I've tested the new 721 and am sure that it has solved the problem, I'll post a message telling everything I did to identify that the problem originated in the receiver. FWIW, I'm fairly sure that I could have pinpointed the origin of the problem a couple of months ago, but it has been intermittent, and never seemed to be active when I had time to sit down and test things.

BTW - I told Dish support I was somewhat concerned with the quality of components in the 721, and was worried that I would have to pay for a new unit once my warranty ran out. The fellow made a great suggestion: $1.99 added to my bill monthly will insure the 721 and LNBF 100% against any problems. That sounds like an incredibly good deal for equipment insurance, especially equipment that has a questionable track record, so I've marked the date on my calendar when I need to call them and start up the insurance. Anybody concerned with the reliability of their 721 and LNBF, or 508, 501, or any other model should give Dish a call and order the insurance. And no, I don't make any money by recommending this! :)

- Bill

Mike D-CO5

05-31-03, 03:10 PM

I've used the $1.99 warrenty for quite some time and have replace the dishplayer unit abbout 3 times and replaced a 4900 model when the cord became frayed , and this week I am using it to replace a 508 with a flakey harddrive.

It has been well worth it over the years. Especially now that I have a 721 pvr: you never know when it might have problems. I have a lot of money invested in my dish receivers and $1.99 a month is a bargain to keep it all running in good shape, imcluding the quad lnb.

Mike D-CO5

05-31-03, 03:12 PM

Sorry if I mispelt a few words my 2 year old is grabbing my leg and screaming at the top of his lung. It is one of those days!!!!!!!!

Cheapbyte

05-31-03, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
I've noticed the pixellation problem only happens when the tuner is at the higher temp. After the 1.12 download I checked the temp, 109 F, and no pixellation. Last night it was pixellating moderately on tuner 1, and the temp was 118 F. Could be coincidence. But next time I have the problem and high temperature I'll put an external fan blowing on the receiver and see if that fixes it.

I have been noticing a few pixelations the past few days and my temp right now is 98 degrees. I think a feature should be added to determine what tunner a person is watching. It would make troubleshooting a lot easier.

Ronster

06-03-03, 01:01 PM

With everyone having this problem at the same time dosent this mean that this is a software issue and can be repaired???

Kevin Elm

06-03-03, 02:51 PM

That is the frustrating thing about this problem. It is not clear whether it is software or hardware or a combination of both.

Bill Mullin

06-03-03, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Elm
That is the frustrating thing about this problem. It is not clear whether it is software or hardware or a combination of both. In my case, it appears to be hardware. I still have a few tests to perform, then assuming there's no surprises, I'll post a long message telling how I isolated the problem and fixed it.

- Bill

Jacob S

06-03-03, 08:51 PM

If Dish cannot fix it with software as they should have done by now, then it is obviously a hardware issue. Either that or they wrote some pretty bad software for the receiver making it just as bad as a hardware problem

Big Bob

06-03-03, 09:44 PM

Let try not to get too carried away here.

In no way am I saying that there isn't a problem with some some machines. Personally, I think it has something to do with temperature. But...

Every time there is pixelation, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the 721. Occasionally, I would see pixelation on my old 4700/4900. I have seen it on other models as well. LOTS of things can cause pixelation.

Now when you see it on the same station on one tuner and not on another, or you see it on a 721 and not on another machine hooked into the same switch, then I would really sit up and take notice. But if you are just sitting there, and you have a second or two of pixelation, don't assume that it is the "721 pixelation problem".

$.02

treiher

06-04-03, 09:03 AM

I am now more than 2 weeks into my replacement 721 and still no pixelation problem. For what it's worth Big Bob, my problem was exactly as you describe to sit up and take notice. When it appeared, swapping tuners made it go away. It was always on Tuner 1. Swapping to Tuner 2 showed no pixelation. Also, my 501 and 301 never had the problem. I tried swapping the Tuner 1 and Tuner 2 cables on my 721 and still Tuner 1 had the problem. I then hooked my 501 up to those cables and it did not have the problem, but the 721 still had it when hooked to the 501 cable. I really do think this was a hardware problem in my case.

doug

06-04-03, 10:12 AM

From what I've been reading on here and with my 721 now starting to have this problem after having it for 2 or 3 months, I believe the problem has something to do with fragmentation of the hard drive. I bet that with their buffer management, they are doing a terrible job of preventing the hard drive from getting fragmented to the point where it's causing this problem. This is just my attempt at guessing along with everyone else what the problem is, but it makes perfect sense even after reading about everyone's problems in this thread.

Kevin Elm

06-04-03, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by doug
From what I've been reading on here and with my 721 now starting to have this problem after having it for 2 or 3 months, I believe the problem has something to do with fragmentation of the hard drive.

Perhaps, does anyone know if the 721 buffer goes on the hard drive or does it remain in RAM? From playing with the pause and rewind buttons, it would seem that the tuners write directly to the hard drive. That would mean that the operating system must be constantly dealing with fragmentation. The 721 must have some way of dealing with this.

greylar

06-04-03, 11:27 AM

I'm pretty sure that all show data is written directly to the hard drive and then read. Unlike non PVR systems where the data is basically read directly off of the stream. There may be a ram buffer or something but that's not the same.

My reasoning is:

1.There is a longer delay when changing channels on a PVR than there is on a standard receiver, leading me to believe the system has to buffer to the hard drive before displaying the signal.

2.I've heard that if you have a PVR and a non-PVR playing at the same time, the signal on the PVR will be slightly delayed, again suggesting hard drive buffering.

3. From a programming stand point it would be more difficult to switch back and forth from the hard drive to the live data stream when people pause and rewind.

So yes even tho I've seen people disagree, I think that it is likely there is a fragmentation issue happening.

IMHO Greylar

 

Bill Mullin

06-04-03, 11:40 AM

This might help:

721 pixelation solved! (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15733)

- Bill

jcrash

06-05-03, 10:47 AM

Treiher? Can you swap the old Hard Drive into the new 721? You might try it and see what happens. If it works, you could still see your old shows. I'm interested to see what happens if you try it, because I need to decide whether to send in my unit with an entire season of Alias on it or hold onto and let the warranty expire.

Alias marathan anyone?

Cheapbyte

06-05-03, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by doug
From what I've been reading on here and with my 721 now starting to have this problem after having it for 2 or 3 months, I believe the problem has something to do with fragmentation of the hard drive. I bet that with their buffer management, they are doing a terrible job of preventing the hard drive from getting fragmented to the point where it's causing this problem. This is just my attempt at guessing along with everyone else what the problem is, but it makes perfect sense even after reading about everyone's problems in this thread.

Doug,

I can not speak for everyone else, but my pixelation was caused by a hardware issue with the 721. I could go to the dish pointing screen and watch my tuner 2 drop to 0 then pop backup to 97. Tuner one was solid at 97, never a drop. Since Dish replaced my 721, I have not had the problem, but it has only been 3 weeks since replacement.

Filip1

06-05-03, 10:36 PM

After months of reading about this 721 problem, tonite I finally have seen it on my 721. I've had my machine since Oct. and thought that I might be one of the lucky ones, but no such luck. I got terrible pixelation and random acq. signal messages. I checked my 50x's and they were fine on the same channel so it definitely is the 721 bug. I finally rebooted and it went away, but I fear I haven't seen the last of this nasty problem.

Bugsmasher

06-06-03, 02:06 PM

What's the chance any of this could be caused by the worldwide capacitor problem that is affecting computers. Supposedly the caps have made it into more equipment than just motherboards.

Jacob S

06-06-03, 07:13 PM

Its not just a problem that happens for just a few seconds and it shows up in recordings as well. Swapping lnbf's and/or receivers shows the problem with different lnbf's and no problems with other receivers.

yagelski

06-06-03, 10:04 PM

I purchased my 721 last July. Supposedly one of the very first retail units (maybe / maybe not). It worked great until November, when tuner one began experiencing the pixelation problem.

DISH tech support treated me like I was from Mars and insisted the problem HAD to be on my side. Over the next few months they tried replacing my switch (SW64) and had me run a new ground (I ran #6 copper four feet to the electric service). No dice. Tuner one continued to pixelate.

I gave up for a few months and stuck to using tuner two, but since the one-year warranty will soon expire I decided that it was time to try again. I phoned DISH this evening and after walking through all of the "what's your signal strength" baloney again (and their review of my extensive customer record), they agreed to send me a new receiver. No shipping charges (ccard paying customer).

Surprisingly I had to ask for the extended warranty. They tried to sell me some "enhanced" warranty for $4.99 / month that also covers shipping, but I reminded them of me being a ccard paying customer. They gladly set me up for the $1.99 / month deal.

I am supposed to receive the new replacement next week. I wonder if it will be a rehab unit or brand new. I am also anxious to see if there is any difference between the old and new unit.

Assuming all works correctly you will not hear from me. If the replacement unit has similar problems, I may explode.

Wish me luck.

Ken

TomCat

06-07-03, 02:42 PM

Some clarification.

"Pixellation". as referred to regarding this problem, has a particular signature. It is not quite like px seen when there is momentary bitstarving in the signal that everyone sees. What is normally experienced is a momentary freeze with 30% frozen macroblocks usually accompanied by about a half-second to one-second audio dropout (the most annoying part of the problem) and then everything is OK again. It happens anywhere from every 5 minutes to every 10 seconds, and occasionally is so bad that an "acquiring signal" dialog appears. There are periods where it doesn't happen at all, and if not using 2 tuners you may never or rarely see it, especially if you are, like me, a "tuner 2" sufferer, and unlike me, only use the 721 sporadically.

I don't think it's hardware, or mine would likely have done it from day one. To say that if it was software it would have been fixed by now is overly-optimistic, especially if you know how long some of the DP and 501 fixes were waited on.

I have personally done extensive troubleshooting similar to that we saw laid out in detail in Bill's excellent post. Conclusion? In my case the problem is narrowed down to tuner 2. Temp does not seem to be a factor, or are there any other common factors other than the DBS provider and PVR manufacturer.

Fragmentation? Not likely. PVR's don't really get fragmented the same way a PC might. Most don't suffer from it at all, and drive throughput is such that fragmentation could not significantly slow things down anyway. It's important not to cloud the issue with "what if's" that likely don't apply.

116 posts and counting...just on this thread. If E* doesn't see a problem yet, well then they're not looking.

Jacob S

06-07-03, 03:45 PM

If it was a fragmentation problem then how come is it only happening on tuner 2? I think that leaves fragmentation out of it.

Dish knows about the problem, they just refuse to do anything drastic to fix it, because they do not want to spend the money getting it fixed.

You WILL get a refurbished unit whether you like it or not. Even after getting a 3rd replacement they wanted to give me a refurb (with a 501) then later said it was their policy to replace it with a new one on the 3rd replacement after saying they definitely wouldnt until I talked to someone high up on the phone.

Cheapbyte

06-08-03, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Bugsmasher
What's the chance any of this could be caused by the worldwide capacitor problem that is affecting computers. Supposedly the caps have made it into more equipment than just motherboards.

I mentioned something about the capacitor issue ealier and feel it might be something along this line. The only real way to tell is open the unit and look for leaking CAPS.

Filip1

06-11-03, 08:02 PM

My problems,which i talked about above, got worse and worse, long story short. I just put my replacement 721 in service. It came this afternoon and so far so good. The most important trouble shooting they want done was swapping the cables (tuner1 and tuner 2). If you are having these problems, call and let Dish know!
Don't just suffer in silence. If enough people complain then they will eventually realize they have a problem.

Bill Mullin

06-12-03, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Filip1
Don't just suffer in silence. If enough people complain then they will eventually realize they have a problem. I'm fairly certain that they know there's a problem with the 721 hardware, they just won't admit this to their customers.

Filip1

06-12-03, 06:27 AM

Bill, I don't think we should just assume someone else is reporting the problem. Each of us should call and report what is happening. We can't just assume that the dish techs know there is a problem. I don't think communication in the ranks is quite as good as we all would like it to be. Besides, if you have this problem, call in and get your defective machine replaced. One thing about Dish they really do stand behind their products.

Kevin Elm

06-12-03, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by Filip1

Don't just suffer in silence. If enough people complain then they will eventually realize they have a problem.

I'm not so sure. Do we know if their customer service system logs problems by machine? Does anyone look at the records? We don't know how many 721s are in service and how many have gone bad. It may be isolated to only a small percentage. The users of this forum are probably NOT a good cross-section of Dish's customer base.

Jacob S

06-12-03, 06:24 PM

They may not log the problems and if there are not a whole lot of people having the problems then they may be ignoring them. Most customers do not have a PVR anyways. If everyone had a PVR then that would be different as there would be many more calls coming in.

TomCat

06-28-03, 02:44 PM

Bump!

Just when the engineers thought this thread might (Oh Please!) be sinking from sight, one of us who still has the problem (all of us, actually) does a bump post to remind them that they haven't done their job yet.

We are NOT going away!

Big Bob

06-28-03, 05:06 PM

have you called Dish yet? What was their response? Others have had no trouble getting their unit replaced.

Jacob S

06-28-03, 10:02 PM

Big Bob

06-28-03, 10:28 PM

It is about more than just getting the unit replaced, its about finding a permanent solution, not a temporary one. Sure, getting the unit replaced will solve the problem (temporarily for some) but having to get it replaced over and over is not solving any problems. What I do not understand is why some are having these issues over and over while others are not having any problems. Perhaps its happening only to certain regions or that it has something to do with the shipping. I have seen how they handeled the packages and dings in the boxes as they throw them around.

Some of the thoughts I have been kicking around.
There was a bad production run. Or a bad shipment of parts that only went into a limited group of units.

There may be a problem with how some units are mounted. They may be getting hot. Notice that the problems started when the weather got warmer. Some people may not have enough ventilation. Not that that is their fault. The units should function when mounted in AV racks that have at least some ventilation.

Could be some sort of strange interaction with other hardware. Like some problem with a particular LNB or switch.

Or (what I think is really happening) a combination of two or more of these factors and/or other factors. That would make it really hard to troubleshoot.

$.02

Kevin Elm

06-30-03, 12:12 AM

My pixelation problem has returned with a vengence. It had disappeared for a month or more, but now it is back. Guess tuner 1 is now toast. Time to call DishNetwork advanced tech support to get another unit. :mad:

rplj66

06-30-03, 08:29 AM

Its funny, I was talking to a tech out here in Cleve OH just recently bringing up some issues from this board and he had never heard of the board and didn't know the 721 even existed.
This same tech said that the 501s were complete junk and that the 508s were solid. I talked to a different tech who came out to the house and he thought the 501s were solid.

I'm just pointing out that like everything else in life, people all have their own strong opinions based on their own experiances. If someone was unlucky enough to run into two or three bad units in a short timeframe they will condemn all of them and it would be difficult to prove anything otherwise to them. I used to be in the computer hardware industry. We had our most loved and most hated products. Shipments came in weekly and we would get batches in from time to time. With some products we got bad batches once a month, for other products it might be every 6 months. Then we'd change suppliers and that would change everything. Some of our favorites would become our most hated and some of our most hated we would start to like a little bit.

Just some of my perspective.

Big Bob

06-30-03, 08:58 AM

Just some of my perspective.

But unless your perspective matches, exactly, to mine, YOU are an IDIOT!

You should get off the internet until you grow up and your parents should really be ashamed.

:)

treiher

06-30-03, 02:01 PM

For what it's worth, I am now 7 weeks into my replacement unit, and still no problems. Unlike others who have rode out the problem only to see it return, I have not had that. Ofcourse, I have no way of knowing if it would have come back on my old 721, but so far so good!!

JCrash (post back on June 5). Sorry I did not respond earlier. I have not been checking this board as regularly since my problem seems to have dissappeared. Changing out the hard drive would be an interesting test, but there was no way I was going to open either of those boxes and risk giving Dish an excuse not to warranty the unit. Also, at the time I RMA'd my 721 it was working, so there it did work after changing out the drive, it probably wouldn't have told us anything. Anyway, I I'll leave that level of troubleshooting up to the techs at Dish. Hope they eventually figure this out!

Jacob S

07-01-03, 12:58 PM

I have seen these receivers pixellate off and on, sometimes like nothing is wrong, other times like everything is wrong. It goes away and comes back even worse until you just cannot deal with it anymore. Sometimes it takes a while before the problem comes back or shows up. Those that have the problem show up after warranty without an extended warranty are the unlucky ones although if it does not give any problems within a certain period of time like a year or so then it may not give the customer any problems at all in which if it would fail, it would fail early, but not sure if that is the case here.

Ken N.

07-07-03, 07:10 AM

Mine went yesterday. All of a sudden Input 1 was pixellating and losing signal to the point where it was unwatchable. The problem stayed on Input 1 when I swapped the cables. Good thing it happened yesterday because my 1 year anniversary (warranty) is in 1 week. I called Dish and after trying every obvious thing in the world they agreed that it was fried. Of course they never heard of this problem before. They are also paying shipping to and fro becasue I have credit card autopay. Needless to say I also bought the monthly extended warranty.

Jacob S

07-07-03, 10:13 AM

It seems like most failures do happen within the warranty period, that if they are going to fail, they fail the first year.

Nordug

07-14-03, 06:39 PM

I started having this problem about 1 week ago, turned out the Dish itself just needed a slight adjustment. We did have some high winds a few days before I noticed the problem.

Jacob S

07-14-03, 09:38 PM

Because of the 721's second tuner pixellating problems I missed the whole Tech Chat tonight. Dish made an error and sent me a remanufactured 301 instead of a 721 last Friday.

treiher

07-15-03, 09:31 AM

9 weeks now for my replacement 721 and still no problems at all. Hardware replacement really seems to have been the solution for me on this. I believe the problem would have come back by now on my old 721. Good luck all!

treiher

07-18-03, 01:52 PM

I noticed a short 1 or 2 second pixelation blip on my replacement 721 last night! It happened twice within about an hour. It was probably (and man I sure am hoping) nothing, but I remember that's how the more severe problems started on my last receiver. :nono: Holding my breath here!

Jacob S

07-18-03, 03:51 PM

After them shipping it to the wrong address then sending me a 301 receiver to replace my 721 and not shipping me my 2 508's after ordering them and paying for them and going through all of this hassle because of Dish Network's mistakes I hope this 721 does not go bad. I gave the 501 a three strikes your out. This 721 will be two strikes more than likely before I do not get another one. This one they sent me had the older card in it (not the Dish500 card) and was a new unit so it must have been old stock from a year ago before the Dish500 cards came out. This would has a chance of having the same problems due to the fact that they did not have a chance to fix problems their earlier receiver may have had.

Had anyone else gotten a new replacement instead of a refurbished one with the older card with the channel logos on it on a blue background?

Kevin Elm

07-28-03, 10:51 PM

I broke down this weekend and finally called to get my 721 replaced. Dish was very good about it. I described the problem and told them I swapped coax on the inputs but the problem remained on tuner 1. The CSR called tech support, after about 30 seconds on hold they agreed to replace the receiver.

treiher

07-29-03, 09:58 AM

And just to provide another update since my last post, the short pixelation blip I last reported on my replacement 721 seems to be isolated and has not recurred. Whewwww! Was sweating that out for a bit! You know, it is not unusual or unreasonable to see that from time to time (as in isolated and rare, except for thunderstorms of course) with any satellite service, but I guess I'm just a little paranoid. But as more time goes by, without any problem, I am more and more convinced it was a hardware issue.

Kevin Elm, I think you will be happy with your decision. And I am pleased to hear your RMA experience was as painless as you say . . . as was mine. Regardless of whether Dish officially acknowledges this problem, I think it is obvious they are aware of it internally as evidenced by how readily they process those RMA's.

jerryyyyy

07-30-03, 06:00 PM

Obviously this is a problem. I was gone for two months from the forum but recorded a lot of versions of the same shows and saw a ton of pixelation on shows as I have been working my way through. This is an obvious and current problem.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 07:18 PM

These new DVR receivers had better not have this problem given the DVR fee that is going to be associate with them. I hope they have these tuner problems resolved when these receivers are fixed.

Mike D-CO5

07-30-03, 09:18 PM

It really amazes me that after 4 years Dish is no closer to getting a rock solid problem free digital video recorder. I was so psyched when the dishplayer first came out that I had to have one. We all know what happened with that one. And now here we are 4 years later and we still don't have a rock solid pvr with software comparable to say Directv with Tivo. You would think that by now that they would have worked out ALL the bugs and problems .

So to your question Jake ,about the new receivers not having any bugs : YES they will still have the same problems because Dish is cheap and wants to make every cent they can on their in house software. Whats even funnier is that we as customers still put up with these problems and now with the new fees attached to any future dvrs. We must all be masochists!! Just think we actually PAY a company to treat us like a beta testing group. And now we will pay in the future to use their wonderful buggy software . I sometimes feel I am in a toxic relationship with Dish as my spouse and he beats me daily.

I can hear old Charlie say now "Whose your Daddy!!!" as he slaps me and all of his customers on the ass.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 10:45 AM

Seeing that he did not drop the price on the 510 compared to what the 508 is now and tacking on that fee really steams me. How are they going to compete against DirecTv since their PTV's are so much cheaper? The DirecTivo with a lifetime subscription would probably not be much more if anymore at all than the 510 receiver plus you would get a dual tuner if they are allowing you to buy the lifetime PTV service on DirecTivo's. I suppose the 522 would be compared with the current dual tuner DirecTivo's in which would be even more expensive, probably an extra $100-$200 more than this 510 receiver.

Nordug

08-02-03, 08:40 AM

Tuner 1 started going out a couple of days ago, my replacement 721 should be here in a few days. Is there anyway to record strictly on tuner 2 when the unit is off?

Jacob S

08-02-03, 01:31 PM

No there is not. The only way you can do that is if you keep your satellite receiver on and then it will automatically record to tuner 2 by default since you are already viewing tuner 1. If tuner 2 goes out then you have to keep your satellite receiver off so that it records to tuner 1 by default. Most of the problems have been with tuner 2. You also have to make sure two shows are not recording at the same time or one of the shows will go to the bad tuner and you will miss one of them.

TomCat

08-03-03, 10:01 PM

...They may be getting hot. Notice that the problems started when the weather got warmer. Some people may not have enough ventilation...Could be some sort of strange interaction with other hardware. Like some problem with a particular LNB or switch.
...

I'm afraid that just clouds the issue. We've already done an informal yet extensive poll and could not narrow it down to a particular LNBF or switch. The heat issue?...also already addressed. Mine has plenty of ventillation and all 721's have a thermostatic fan. The problem did not start when "the weather got warmer", unless you are in a different hemisphere. It started in October, 2 days before the L110 (or was it L111?) up rev, making it now 10 months without a fix. Nice effort, tho.

More clarity (I hope)....

The workarounds I originally posted here are not foolproof, in that a power cycle does not always seem to force single recordings or the power up tuner to tuner 1. I have occasions where tuner 2 still prevails. I think a reboot will indeed reset this, however. Consequently I have been trying to determine if a pip swap keeps the unit on tuner 2 through a power cycle, which I now suspect.

One other idea...if you have the space and don't mind a bit of extra HD management, you can simply double-record programs, which will ensure that at least one recording is good. Sucks, but still a damn site better than a blown recording.

Jacob S

08-03-03, 10:14 PM

When I had some 721 problems I have noticed where occasionaly tuner 1 would fail instead of tuner 2 but most of the time it would be tuner 2 that would fail.

jerryyyyy

08-09-03, 01:37 AM

I assume this is still seen as a hardware problem. It is starting to happen to me......

Bill Mullin

08-09-03, 06:10 AM

I assume this is still seen as a hardware problem.Yes - AFAIK, replacing the 721 has solved the problem every time.

jerryyyyy

08-09-03, 10:51 AM

I am going to do some tree trimming this AM if I do not break my neck. If that does not do it, will try to get it replaced. Thanks

TomCat

08-28-03, 09:33 PM

Still not fixed, is it?

TomCat

09-12-03, 01:14 AM

My tuner 2 PX problem has deteriorated. Quite often when I power up I get a black screen (it is unexplicably also powering up on tuner 2). While advanced tech has no formal knowledge of a tuner 2 pixellation problem, (imagine that...ten months and they can't discern a pattern) they DO list this one ("black screen with banner"). The symptoms: Either a black screen for long periods or extreme pixellation, with the picture in the PIP OK. Or reversed...main OK, PIP in black. Or black with black PIP. This seems to lead to extreme sluggishness and spontaneous reboots. Channel changing stays in black, but the banner displays. They said they'd RMA it, but right now its working. I guess I should off-load everything to DVD, 'cuz it looks like this one's going away soon.

Just curious if any other tuner 2 sufferers have seen this particular degradation to the "black screen with banner" mode.

jerryyyyy

09-13-03, 11:53 PM

I see you are talking about this old problem. Note above that I was developing it som e time ago- problem was fixed with a replacement 721....

Bob Haller

09-14-03, 08:10 AM

Yeah although denied by E its a well known bug/

Perhaps they dont admit it since its a hsardware issue?

Bob Haller

09-17-03, 06:00 PM

Ahh I wonder how many of these are related to the LNB or switch as mine was?

Kevin Elm

09-18-03, 08:36 PM

My problem is fixed - just required a new 721. I'm still using the old legacy quad LNB.

buist

09-28-03, 11:50 AM

Okay,
I just got the pixelation bug (on tuner 1). It seems that some people are confusing this with degraded satellite signal, however, that is a different problem. Simply switching the 2 satellite input cables should quickly determine if it is internal to the 721 or not (if the problem stays on the same tuner). If I went into the satellite pointing screen, I could switch tuners and watch the signal drop to 0 every 3-4 seconds on tuner 1. Tuner 2 remained rock solid.

I have the extended warranty (thank goodness - the unit is 13 1/2 months old - just out of the normal warranty). When I called dish to report the problem, the first tech I spoke with had me do the usual useless troubleshooting. Then he told me that the extended warranty did not cover the 721's.. He told me there were not that many out there. He also said that they did not stock any replacements. I resisted the urge to go ballistic on him and hung up. I promptly called again inquiring about what units the extended warranty covered.. It looks like E* changed their minds in the 5 minutes it took for me to call back. This time the 721 is covered and in stock! This CSR had me swap my 508 and 721 to prove the issue and is sending out a replacement.

It is hard for me to believe that E* doesn't acknowledge this as a problem. I would have been furious if I didn't have the extended warranty to fall back on.. This also makes me wonder how good their quality control is going to be on the 921. Even if they run into a problem like the 721, will they acknowledge it (or deny it like the 721's).. With DirecTV backing off on their relationship with Tivo, it is difficult to make a decision on where to go for a HD DVR solution..

Tim

Bob Haller

09-28-03, 11:57 AM

Please note at least in the case of dishpro LNBs swapping a 508 will NOT necessarily prove its a receiver problem.

My 508s ran fine on the coax the 721 had lost tuners on. The ONLY true swap test is a 721 for another 721:(

onecoolee

09-22-04, 09:09 AM

Well, my 721's Tuner1 started acting up a week ago... as all of you know, the 721 is not happy wioth no signal on input 1, so I had to do some tests and ttempt repair, if possible. I started a search on the problem, and found this place. Its obvious this is a common problem among many Dish receivers, but Dish is not fessing up... I have seen the same problems with 501, 508, and now the 721 units. The problem is with the main tuner chip, a conexant CX 24108 chip. This is the chip that is located inside the metal shielded can on the tuner modules... its a 40 pin qfp (I believe).

I started by checking my sat input DC voltage. 12.2V, so I knew thta the Allegro LNB Voltage regulator was working, or doing something. A reading of 0v here is not good... and usually points to a bad lnb v regulator. After verifying the voltage here, I started digging in deeper, and basically locating the tuner chip which was probably causing my signal problems.

The chip has the standard pin layout, plus a large ground pad underneath. Apparently, when the unit gets a little warm, the pad does not dissipate the heat, the chip is not heatsinked, and not adequately cooled, and as a result, the ground pad of the chip disconnects from the board, and as a result, no ground, or a poorly grounded chip. This could cause signal fluctuation, signal loss, or pixellation. I know all of this from my 501 experience, which had the smae problem after 9 months. I was able to easily repair my 501, by heating hte chip with a hot air solder level machine with a fine nozzle, and press down on the chip and hold it until it was reconnected to the board. The 501 has been fine since, and I am not sure if the problem is related to the board population process for Dish, or a major chip defect.

If you are unlucky, like in the case of my 721, the tuner has no signal at all, the chip may be dead. In this case, you msut replace the Conexant altogether. I did this on my 721 last night, following some tuner chip repair procedures found elsewhere. Basically, becasue the work involved tuner1, I had to remove the entire module from the board, so that I could access the metal can, which was being hidden by the other tuner module (tuner2).

After removal of the entire tuner module. I removed the metal can to provide eaiser access to the conexant chip. I used my HASL machine to remove the chip, and cleaned up the pads and board. I installed another Conexant tuner chip CX24108 according to the procedures I found, and reinstalled the metal can and resoldered the tuner module board into the mainboard.

I fired up the 721, and checked signal...good ! So, I successfully repaired my 721, using the smae procedures used to fix 501 units, and the smae COnexant chips. This whole situation is causing major headaches for Dish, as the issues are very widespread and common. BUT, Dish is not fessing up, and probably won't. Some fail early, after a few weeks, some after a year, like mine. I would have never even attempted this repair under warranty conditions, but since my unit was basically a doorstop without repalcing the chip or the enitre tuner module, I gave it a shot. The chips sell for $15-35, if you can find a source, which is very hard to find. You need a decent soldering iron, and at the very minimum a hot air nozzled butane torch. This repair is by no means for newbies, novices or non-technically inclined individuals...if you know what the conexant looks like, you will understand why...

Good luck to those who feel inclined to try fixing this problem, and the tuner chip is most likely the problem (99% of the time of you have voltage at the sat input).