Should I complain?: got refurb HR20-700 instead of new HR22 on install

[marc3]

Hey Team. OK. So I just got DTV installed last week and must admit that I'm disappointed - no actually, mad that on a first install for a new account, I got a refurb HR20 instead of a new HR22.

My buddy in the same city got his installed this week (we each got the $50 refererral) and his was a brand new HR22.

Should I complain and demand a new system? Here are my concerns:

1) refurbs - no idea how many hours on the unit or the HD. Not getting the "maintenance package" so chances are, it won't last as long as a new unit given some wear/tear..

2) doesn't the new unit have a larger HD? Is there any way to tell the size of HD in the device short of counting hours?

3) doesn't the new unit ship with an RF remote std? Luckily, I convinced the tech to check his truck. He had a "used" RF remote, but no antenna. I grabbed an antenna from an old Dish IRD I had to get RF to work.

4) This is the last of the models with integrated ATSC tuner so there is one minor advantage. Does this mean that in my unit, I could record 3 programs at once? (one from ATSC, 2 from sat feed)?

5) Is the HR22 a better unit? (ie: faster processor, better design, more stable s/w, etc).

Please advise as to what you would do if you were me. I guess if the HR20 didn't have the integrated ATSC tuner, I would have called to complain while the guy was still installing.

I just hate to feel like I was swindled by being given used equipment on the initial install. I asked the tech and he told me that all he has is what's in his truck and they were all HR20s.

For the record, the guy that installed at my buddy's this week is from another area and was covering so perhaps he had access to new inventory.

[spartanstew]

There's no guarantee what box you'll get as D* treats them all the same. Yes, the HR22 (and HR23) have slightly larger HD's, but since you're leasing the unit you may get any of a number of different DVR's, refurbed or new. You can call and complain, but it won't get you anywhere.

[RobertE]

Hey Team. OK. So I just got DTV installed last week and must admit that I'm disappointed - no actually, mad that on a first install for a new account, I got a refurb HR20 instead of a new HR22.

My buddy in the same city got his installed this week (we each got the $50 refererral) and his was a brand new HR22.

Should I complain and demand a new system? Here are my concerns:

1) refurbs - no idea how many hours on the unit or the HD. Not getting the "maintenance package" so chances are, it won't last as long as a new unit given some wear/tear..

2) doesn't the new unit have a larger HD? Is there any way to tell the size of HD in the device short of counting hours?

3) doesn't the new unit ship with an RF remote std? Luckily, I convinced the tech to check his truck. He had a "used" RF remote, but no antenna. I grabbed an antenna from an old Dish IRD I had to get RF to work.

4) This is the last of the models with integrated ATSC tuner so there is one minor advantage. Does this mean that in my unit, I could record 3 programs at once? (one from ATSC, 2 from sat feed)?

5) Is the HR22 a better unit? (ie: faster processor, better design, more stable s/w, etc).

Please advise as to what you would do if you were me. I guess if the HR20 didn't have the integrated ATSC tuner, I would have called to complain while the guy was still installing.

I just hate to feel like I was swindled by being given used equipment on the initial install. I asked the tech and he told me that all he has is what's in his truck and they were all HR20s.

For the record, the guy that installed at my buddy's this week is from another area and was covering so perhaps he had access to new inventory.

:welcome_s

1) Refurbs are supposed to get a new HD when they go through the refurb process.

2) The HR22/23 have a 500gb drive vs 300/320 in the 20/21 models.

3) It should have come with a RF remote. Only the 20-100 needs and external RF antenna. All others have an "internal" one.

4) No, you can record a max of 2 programs at once via sat/ota. Only way for a 3rd is via on demand.

5) The HR22 is just an evolution in board design. Same software, etc. Some say its faster, others slower, so...

As far as DirecTv is concerned, anything in the HR2x line is current for a HD-DVR install/upgrade.

[davring]

It is easy to verify the drive size. The standard HR20 will record 50 hours of HD which equals 2% per hour on the scale. If the drive is larger(if replaced during refurb)it will be something less than the 2%. You can do the math.

[Grentz]

Differences between HR2x HD-DVRs. All are considered current and can receive the same main programming/features.

Model--HDD(GB)--OTA----Color----BBC Req.**
HR20---300/320---Yes----Silver----Yes
HR21---320-------No*----Black----Yes
HR22---500-------No*----Black----Yes
HR23---500-------No*----Black----No

*Can add OTA via AM21 Tuner, retails for $50 from Directv.
**BBC - B-Band Converters connect on the cable between the receiver and dish in non-SWM installs.

[urnote96]

i would rather have a HR20-700 over any other box right now....no problems and i have had it for 2 years....and i have 2 of them

[urnote96]

Differences between HR2x HD-DVRs. All are considered current and can receive the same main programming/features.

Model--HDD(GB)--OTA----Color----BBC Req.**
HR20---300/320---Yes----Silver----Yes
HR21---320-------No*----Black----Yes
HR22---500-------No*----Black----Yes
HR23---500-------No*----Black----No

*Can add OTA via AM21 Tuner, retails for $50 from Directv.
**BBC - B-Band Converters connect on the cable between the receiver and dish in non-SWM installs.

on your hr20's,.....there is a HR20-700 that is BLACK

[Herdfan]

on your hr20's,.....there is a HR20-700 that is BLACK

I thought it was the -100's that had a few, but not all black ones.

[bertman64]

It's a FREE HD DVR and leased so if it goes bad you will get replacement so that is a much better deal than most got. I had to pay for standard TIVO, oval dish and HD receiver just 6 years ago, almost 1,000.00 since I got an HD-ready TV and the digital receiver that turned out to be Directv receiver was 700.00 extra! That's almost as bad as when I paid 729.00 for my first VHS VCR or 400.00 for my 1st DVD player or 650.00 for my 1st DVD recorder!

[Grentz]

on your hr20's,.....there is a HR20-700 that is BLACK

For simplicity I neglected to put it as there are seemingly just a few. Plus color should not be a HUGE deal and the HR20s are not in production anymore anyhow ;)

[l8er]

I would think a new customer would get a new DVR. Installing refurbs for new customers says, "Hey, welcome to DIRECTV, we don't give a rat's behind what you want." I'd be downright insulted to get anything but new for the whole system as a new customer.

Fortunately, I suppose, I always do a self install with either DBS provider, so I've got control over what I get for equipment. DIRECTV has always issued credits to offset the cost of the dish and HD DVR.

[fredandbetty]

For simplicity I neglected to put it as there are seemingly just a few. Plus color should not be a HUGE deal and the HR20s are not in production anymore anyhow ;)

And i am SO glad that i have two of them and have had NO probs....yet!

[Davenlr]

I have a Hr20-700 and a Hr22-100. The 20 is much faster than the 22 here. If I had to choose, Id probably choose the 20.

[Upstream]

I would think a new customer would get a new DVR. Installing refurbs for new customers says, "Hey, welcome to DIRECTV, we don't give a rat's behind what you want." I'd be downright insulted to get anything but new for the whole system as a new customer.

Fortunately, I suppose, I always do a self install with either DBS provider, so I've got control over what I get for equipment. DIRECTV has always issued credits to offset the cost of the dish and HD DVR.


The whole point of leasing receivers is that you return them to DirecTV when you are no longer using them, and then they send them out to other customers.

If DirecTV can't reuse returned receivers, then the economics of the lease program won't work.

[Mike Bertelson]

on your hr20's,.....there is a HR20-700 that is BLACKThere were both black and silver HR20-100.

IIRC all the HR20-700s were silver.

Mike

[roadrunner1782]

For simplicity I neglected to put it as there are seemingly just a few. Plus color should not be a HUGE deal and the HR20s are not in production anymore anyhow

Color is a huge deal to me (don't know why), but I despise silver electronics!!!

[BattleZone]

The whole point of leasing receivers is that you return them to DirecTV when you are no longer using them, and then they send them out to other customers.

If DirecTV can't reuse returned receivers, then the economics of the lease program won't work.

With Dish, EVERY standard-def customer gets refurb equipment. That's all we've gotten for months, as people upgrade to HD and their SD equipment goes back into the pool. They occasionally make a run of SD DVRs, but that's rare. The only thing we get new are the latest model of HD-DVRs (722 and 612).

[Grentz]

Color is a huge deal to me (don't know why), but I despise silver electronics!!!

I agree, all my stuff is black, so I much prefer the black models. I received an HR21 and HR22 though so I am happy ;)

[vikingguy]

Since the majority of my recordings are OTA I would rather get a ref hr20 than a new hr22-23. I have read to many issues about the AM21 to want to deal with it right now.

[tds4182]

The HR20 has OTA capability that doesn't exist in the newer units without the add on module.

[tomkarl]

Color is a huge deal to me (don't know why), but I despise silver electronics!!!

+1

Black matches everything else I have.

[dettxw]

My refurb HR20-700 works as well or better than my "new" one.

The HR20-700 has been the CE unit of choice.
(Maybe not as true these days)

OTA is important to me. I'd be pissed if I couldn't get another HR20-700 as a replacement for one I've got.

[mx6bfast]

The whole point of leasing receivers is that you return them to DirecTV when you are no longer using them, and then they send them out to other customers.

If DirecTV can't reuse returned receivers, then the economics of the lease program won't work.
But even for new subs? I can understand (expect) getting a refurb if mine breaks, but why would a new customer not get new equipment.

For the record, I have 2 HR20's and prefer those because of the OTA tuner. I record everything off of it since it has the better PQ.

[Grentz]

But even for new subs? I can understand (expect) getting a refurb if mine breaks, but why would a new customer not get new equipment.

For the record, I have 2 HR20's and prefer those because of the OTA tuner. I record everything off of it since it has the better PQ.

Even for new subs...because if one of a current subs "breaks" it goes back into the pool and can potentially be fixed. I am sure the numbers work out that there are not enough current sub replacements to use up all the refurbs economically so some of the new subs get them as well.

Keep in mind that I think a lot of people that get replacements do not really have anything wrong with their receivers. Many other issues such as cabling, power, dish alignment, etc. are diagnosed as receiver issues quite often resulting in a perfectly fine receiver being replaced.

[spartanstew]

But even for new subs? I can understand (expect) getting a refurb if mine breaks, but why would a new customer not get new equipment.


Why should they? Why would it matter as long as it works correctly? They're just going to give it back to D* when they're done with it.

[mx6bfast]

Why should they? Why would it matter as long as it works correctly? They're just going to give it back to D* when they're done with it.
You call up Whirpool, order a washing machine, do you expect to get a refurb or a new one? You lease a new car, call the dealer, go to pick it up and it's a 2 year old used car. You order a cell phone from a website, go pick it up and it's not brand new. Shall I go on and on?

[Doug Brott]

on your hr20's,.....there is a HR20-700 that is BLACK

I thought it was the -100's that had a few, but not all black ones.

There was one bad batch of HR20-100s that were black instead of silver. Likely Thomson jumped the gun on switching to HR21-100s in part of their process .. Most HR20-100s are sliver.

[SEAKevin]

Just after Xmas I called DirecTV to see if they had any deals on an upgrade of my bedroom R15 to a HD DVR (fully planning on them to tell me it would cost $199..which meant I would go get one at Costco). But to my surprise they told me that because I am such a valued customer they could send me one for free and I'd just have to pay for shipping ($19.95). I was just 1 year into a 2 year agreement.

I was (foolishly) expecting a HR22 or HR23 so that I could move my HR21 to the bedroom and use the higher capacity 22 or 23 on my main TV in my living room. But when the box arrived it was a refurbished HR21-100.. complete with scratches all over the top of the unit put there by a former owner.

I called DirecTV back and told them that I wanted a HR22 or HR23... didn't care if it was refurbished or not..I just wanted the larger hard drive. The agent tried hard to figure out how to order me one, but then came back on and said if I were purchasing the unit their system would allow the agent to specify which model is sent out..but since mine was free there was no way to do it. She said I could go to a store and buy a new unit and send the HR21 back and they'd give me credit.. and I asked how that could be when I paid $0 for the unit..but she insisted there would be some kind of credit to offset the $ I would have to spend at the store.

I decided not to believe her...and I kept the HR21 and installed it in my bedroom. It was free after all.

[Doug Brott]

You call up Whirpool, order a washing machine, do you expect to get a refurb or a new one? You lease a new car, call the dealer, go to pick it up and it's a 2 year old used car. You order a cell phone from a website, go pick it up and it's not brand new. Shall I go on and on?

You can and if you're not satisfied then call up DIRECTV to work out a solution that is satisfactory to you. The HR20 is a capable receiver and should work just as good as the HR22. What is different at this point is the amount of program storage.

[spartanstew]

You call up Whirpool, order a washing machine, do you expect to get a refurb or a new one? You lease a new car, call the dealer, go to pick it up and it's a 2 year old used car. You order a cell phone from a website, go pick it up and it's not brand new. Shall I go on and on?

1. I didn't know Whirlpool leased washing machines. If they do and the arrangement was that I would use it for awhile and then give it back to them, I wouldn't care.
2. Leased cars are totally different as there is always the option to buy the car at the end of the lease period. So, the car has value and it's to the customers benefit to have more value at the end of the period. In that case, it has to be new.
3. AFAIK, cell phones are purchased.

You've included two examples of things that are purchased and one example of something that while it's a lease, is a totally different type of lease and is not comparable.

A much better comparison would be renting a car. When you rent a car, do you insist every time that it's brand new? Why not? Do you have to have brand new bowling shoes at the bowling alley? Why not? D*'s lease is merely a form of renting. When you rent things, there's no reason it has to be new. none.

Yes, please go on and on with your apples to oranges comparisons.

[JLucPicard]

You call up Whirpool, order a washing machine, do you expect to get a refurb or a new one? You lease a new car, call the dealer, go to pick it up and it's a 2 year old used car. You order a cell phone from a website, go pick it up and it's not brand new. Shall I go on and on?
Do new cable installs all get new equipment, or do they just get whatever the installer happens to have with them?

In the case of both cable and DirecTV, they are providing a receiver to allow you to get their programming. The method of payment varies between the two (monthly lease fees for as long as you lease the equipment with cable versus a one-time up-front fee to lease DirecTV equipment), but I'm not aware that new cable installs are guaranteed to get new equipment any more than DirecTV guarantees that new installs will get new equipment.

[phox_mulder]

I just got a refurbed HR20-100 as a free replacement for my dead/dying HR10-250.

Actually quite glad I got the HR20 instead of an HR21/22/23, I'd much rather have the OTA built in instead of relying on an external box.

As to the hard drive size, I can and probably will increase that either internally or externally.
But, based on my previous statement, I'd much rather upgrade internally than rely on an external box.


phox

[JLucPicard]

Unless you now own your HR20 replacement box, I would shy away from doing an internal upgrade. DirecTV tends to frown on people messing with the equipment inside their (DirecTV's) boxes. ;)

[mx6bfast]

1. I didn't know Whirlpool leased washing machines. If they do and the arrangement was that I would use it for awhile and then give it back to them, I wouldn't care.
2. Leased cars are totally different as there is always the option to buy the car at the end of the lease period. So, the car has value and it's to the customers benefit to have more value at the end of the period. In that case, it has to be new.
3. AFAIK, cell phones are purchased.

You've included two examples of things that are purchased and one example of something that while it's a lease, is a totally different type of lease and is not comparable.

A much better comparison would be renting a car. When you rent a car, do you insist every time that it's brand new? Why not? Do you have to have brand new bowling shoes at the bowling alley? Why not? D*'s lease is merely a form of renting. When you rent things, there's no reason it has to be new. none.

Yes, please go on and on with your apples to oranges comparisons.
To expect new bowling shoes or a new rental car is kinda absurb. However I think if you take the facts of subing with D*, you get all of these great promises and you are locked into a 2 year agreement in which if you decided to leave you would have to pay money, that as a new customer they would show their appreciation of you signing with them and provide brand new equipment. That's what I think and if you disagree that's fine. That's just my perspective. If I was the OP I would be a little miffed as well. To him D* did not put out a good vibe. And now he either has to pay out the butt to get out of his contract or deal with used equipment.

[Herdfan]

There was one bad batch of HR20-100s that were black instead of silver.

What made them bad?

[Herdfan]

Color is a huge deal to me (don't know why), but I despise silver electronics!!!

It would not be as bad if they were all the same color silver, but each manufacturer seems to want their "own" color. :(

[evan_s]

To expect new bowling shoes or a new rental car is kinda absurb. However I think if you take the facts of subing with D*, you get all of these great promises and you are locked into a 2 year agreement in which if you decided to leave you would have to pay money, that as a new customer they would show their appreciation of you signing with them and provide brand new equipment. That's what I think and if you disagree that's fine. That's just my perspective. If I was the OP I would be a little miffed as well. To him D* did not put out a good vibe. And now he either has to pay out the butt to get out of his contract or deal with used equipment.

The most direct comparison is renting a box from a cable company or a receiver from Dish. As several people have posted both are just as likely to get you a refurb receiver. My last Digital cable box from comcast was ancient and clearly reused many times.

The OP doesn't note anything specifically wrong with the box that would make it obvious it was a refurb, eg scratches etc, and seems to know it's a refurb just because of the version. If thats the case I don't see anything wrong with the refurb.

As far as things goes the HR20 has the built in OTA and from some reports from the hacked Tivo Series 3's and TivoHd users the older processor in the HR20 and Tivo Series 3 test as faster.

[spartanstew]

or deal with used equipment.

What is there to deal with? You act like the refurbed/used equipment comes with only 1 tuner working or something. The idea of a new rental car everytime is no more absurd than expecting a new receiver for every new customer. It's just a rented/leased piece of equipment. What should they do with the receivers that get returned (either from something not working or customers that leave)? Just throw them out? No, the ones that work, they send back out and the ones that don't, they repair and send back out. If they didn't, if they just tossed all those receivers, which apparently is what you would rather they did (to ensure everyone gets a new one), don't you think our rates would be higher? Or the initial upfront cost would be higher (how else would they absorb the cost of all those boxes they can't send back out)? Then you'd be complaining about that (why is the initial cost $300 - $400. rant, rant).
It's business 101.

[Jhon69]

To expect new bowling shoes or a new rental car is kinda absurb. However I think if you take the facts of subing with D*, you get all of these great promises and you are locked into a 2 year agreement in which if you decided to leave you would have to pay money, that as a new customer they would show their appreciation of you signing with them and provide brand new equipment. That's what I think and if you disagree that's fine. That's just my perspective. If I was the OP I would be a little miffed as well. To him D* did not put out a good vibe. And now he either has to pay out the butt to get out of his contract or deal with used equipment.


I personally agree also.It also sounds like a new DVR just might have become available to upgrade the installer's DirecTV system.:rolleyes:

To me a New install means exactly that.New.:sure:

[tcusta00]

Gosh, I remember not too long ago (before the AM21 came out) that people were chomping at the bit to get their hands on a used HR20. My how much difference a few months make. :lol:

[spartanstew]

Yep, several months ago people would have praised D* for a refubed HR20 and started a thread complaining if they had gotten a new HR21.

[JACKIEGAGA]

I also prefer my HR20-700 over HR21-100 it is much faster

[mx6bfast]

What is there to deal with? You act like the refurbed/used equipment comes with only 1 tuner working or something. The idea of a new rental car everytime is no more absurd than expecting a new receiver for every new customer. It's just a rented/leased piece of equipment. What should they do with the receivers that get returned (either from something not working or customers that leave)? Just throw them out? No, the ones that work, they send back out and the ones that don't, they repair and send back out. If they didn't, if they just tossed all those receivers, which apparently is what you would rather they did (to ensure everyone gets a new one), don't you think our rates would be higher? Or the initial upfront cost would be higher (how else would they absorb the cost of all those boxes they can't send back out)? Then you'd be complaining about that (why is the initial cost $300 - $400. rant, rant).
It's business 101.
Nit pick. Again, it's my personal view. If you don't like it or agree with it get over yourself. You are assuming way too much of me in this post and I will just leave it at that. :nono:

Just curious, what business class is make the customer happy?

[Doug Brott]

What made them bad?

not to spec because the color was wrong ;)

[gnahc79]

Nit pick. Again, it's my personal view. If you don't like it or agree with it get over yourself. You are assuming way too much of me in this post and I will just leave it at that. :nono:

Just curious, what business class is make the customer happy?
Wrong class. Sorry it doesn't exist, it's all about money and that's it. This isn't a mom & pop shop where they care about you and your satisfaction with their product or service. For Directv it's not worth it to have a brand new DVR for a new install, even if .1% are pissed. It's not worth it to pay installers a decent wage, have a more reliable DVR, etc etc. For now the crap we put up with isn't costing them enough money to make any major improvements (it seems).

btw my brand new 1 yr old hr21-700 died last month. I got a refurb as a replacement and was initially apprehensive about getting a refurb. After a while I decided that crap, if a new one died so soon then a refurb is probably the same. A brand new HDDVR gains you nothing IMO. These HDDVRs will quit on you pretty quick brand new or not.

[Upstream]

What is there to deal with? You act like the refurbed/used equipment comes with only 1 tuner working or something. The idea of a new rental car everytime is no more absurd than expecting a new receiver for every new customer. It's just a rented/leased piece of equipment. What should they do with the receivers that get returned (either from something not working or customers that leave)? Just throw them out? No, the ones that work, they send back out and the ones that don't, they repair and send back out. If they didn't, if they just tossed all those receivers, which apparently is what you would rather they did (to ensure everyone gets a new one), don't you think our rates would be higher? Or the initial upfront cost would be higher (how else would they absorb the cost of all those boxes they can't send back out)? Then you'd be complaining about that (why is the initial cost $300 - $400. rant, rant).
It's business 101.


The theory of the lease program is that you lease equipment from DirecTV. The equipment does what it is supposed to do. If it doesn't do what it is supposed to do (i.e., it is broken/defective), you send it back and get a replacement. You don't own the equipment, so you don't have to worry about depreciation or residual value (unlike a car lease, your price is not based on residual value). So as long as the equipment works and gets replaced when it doesn't work, there is no difference between new or used equipment.

However, the theory of the lease program also assumes that DirecTV holds up their side of the bargain. That means DirecTV needs to replace defective equipment at no cost or obligation to the customer. If the customer incurs costs (whether it is a $20 shipping fee, or spending hours on the phone to correct an erroneous contract extension), then the customer is going to want new equipment to lessen the chance of incurring those costs.

I also understand how customers could expect new equipment (even though it doesn't make a difference) since DirecTV has hefty upfront fees and commitments on acquisition of the equipment. A customer is likely to question the purpose of those upfront fees and commitments if there is no difference between new and used equipment. The interchangeability of new and used highlights the fact that DirecTV is not incurring an upfront cost in providing the equipement.

[mx6bfast]

Wrong class. Sorry it doesn't exist, it's all about money and that's it. This isn't a mom & pop shop where they care about you and your satisfaction with their product or service. For Directv it's not worth it to have a brand new DVR for a new install, even if .1% are pissed. It's not worth it to pay installers a decent wage, have a more reliable DVR, etc etc. For now the crap we put up with isn't costing them enough money to make any major improvements (it seems).
I guess that also explains how D*'s customer service rating was below the IRS's for 2007. :D
btw my brand new 1 yr old hr21-700 died last month. I got a refurb as a replacement and was initially apprehensive about getting a refurb. After a while I decided that crap, if a new one died so soon then a refurb is probably the same. A brand new HDDVR gains you nothing IMO. These HDDVRs will quit on you pretty quick brand new or not.
(knock on wood) Our 2 HR20's have been fine for around 2 years for the oldest one.

[spartanstew]

If you don't like it or agree with it get over yourself.

What does that mean? Get over yourself? I did not realize I was, at any point in time, under myself. And that seems to be a position I'd remember.
And for the record, I neither like or dislike your statements, they're just not logical. If you take the emotion out of it (i.e. I've been wronged at some point in my life and will remain bitter to the end), you'd see it to.

You may think new customers deserve brand new equipment (and you still haven't answered my question about what they should do with the used equipment - I know, my fault for throwing logic into it again), but the fact is that's not the way it's done. Cable companies don't do it that way, I don't believe Dish does it that way, nobody does. But still you want to blame D* for it. Fine. Continue your little rants and jabs and maybe some day life for you will be all you desire and every company will do things the way you want.

The theory of the lease program is that you lease equipment from DirecTV. The equipment does what it is supposed to do. If it doesn't do what it is supposed to do (i.e., it is broken/defective), you send it back and get a replacement. You don't own the equipment, so you don't have to worry about depreciation or residual value (unlike a car lease, your price is not based on residual value). So as long as the equipment works and gets replaced when it doesn't work, there is no difference between new or used equipment.


Exactly.


However, the theory of the lease program also assumes that DirecTV holds up their side of the bargain. That means DirecTV needs to replace defective equipment at no cost or obligation to the customer. If the customer incurs costs (whether it is a $20 shipping fee, or spending hours on the phone to correct an erroneous contract extension), then the customer is going to want new equipment to lessen the chance of incurring those costs.


I've seen no data that suggests refurbed or used equipment fails sooner than new equipment. If fact, I think there's a chance that the opposite it true, since failures with this type of equipment seems to happen sooner rather than later. So, if the risk of failure is the argument then it's just another benefit to the customer to receive a used or refurbished unit.

[BKC]

What is there to deal with? You act like the refurbed/used equipment comes with only 1 tuner working or something.

That is exactly what I got with my first two refurbished HR20's on a new install. First one dead on install, second one would work sometimes and then quit, third one is hanging in there...... For now anyway.

[spartanstew]

That would certainly be unacceptable BKC, although there have been threads about new equipment malfunctioning as well. The point is, if used or refurbed equipment works good (which was not the case with you), why does it matter? Nobody has yet answered that.

[BKC]

I wanted new because I didn't want someone else's cooties in my house :D

[iamqnow]

I would think a new customer would get a new DVR. Installing refurbs for new customers says, "Hey, welcome to DIRECTV, we don't give a rat's behind what you want." I'd be downright insulted to get anything but new for the whole system as a new customer.

Fortunately, I suppose, I always do a self install with either DBS provider, so I've got control over what I get for equipment. DIRECTV has always issued credits to offset the cost of the dish and HD DVR.
I have never received a "new' unit from D*for a replacement. For a new customer to get a refurb is pitiful. On my initial install 100 years ago I picked up the receivers at Radioshack and they were new. When I upgrade now I go to Bestbuy. Not happy getting dirty, scratched refurbs.

[mx6bfast]

What does that mean? Get over yourself? I did not realize I was, at any point in time, under myself. And that seems to be a position I'd remember.
And for the record, I neither like or dislike your statements, they're just not logical. If you take the emotion out of it (i.e. I've been wronged at some point in my life and will remain bitter to the end), you'd see it to.

You may think new customers deserve brand new equipment (and you still haven't answered my question about what they should do with the used equipment - I know, my fault for throwing logic into it again), but the fact is that's not the way it's done. Cable companies don't do it that way, I don't believe Dish does it that way, nobody does. But still you want to blame D* for it. Fine. Continue your little rants and jabs and maybe some day life for you will be all you desire and every company will do things the way you want.
If I am being completely non-rational then I will shutup, but I don't see why me thinking brand new customers should get brand new equipment. Obviously I am not the only person in this thread who thinks that. I don't see you asking them for their logic in it? Face it, Memphis beat Michigan State pretty bad in the NCAA's and you aren't over it yet? Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? That's about as stupid as I see your posts putting personal emotion in this for a simple statement of what I think?

No, I have not been "wronged" by the almighty D*, which is not the point of this thread.

Obviously my logic is different than yours. I think that "new" customers should be given "new" equipment as a first impression. With the used equipment give that to people who have a piece of equipment replaced. Or if a new customer gets refurbed equipment give them a discount. I know how leasing works, I'm not an idiot.

If it is not done that way it's fine, I'm not bitching and complaining about it. I just simply stated what I did. You are the one looking much more into this than I am.

[Upstream]

I guess that also explains how D*'s customer service rating was below the IRS's for 2007.

It was customer SATISFACTION not customer SERVICE where DirecTV scored lower than the IRS.

[Upstream]

I've seen no data that suggests refurbed or used equipment fails sooner than new equipment. If fact, I think there's a chance that the opposite it true, since failures with this type of equipment seems to happen sooner rather than later. So, if the risk of failure is the argument then it's just another benefit to the customer to receive a used or refurbished unit.

Electronic equipment tends to have a high failure rate in the first few days of usage, if there are defective components (and this would be covered under warranty). Once you get past the first 30 days or so, failure happens with age. Hard drives also fail with age.

So refurbished equipment is older, and therefore closer to failing.

As an example, let's say you have a receiver which has a 2% failure rate within the first 100 hours of use. After the first 100 hours, the failure rate drops to 0.01%, climbing to 50% after 30,000 hours. If you have a new receiver, if you make it through the first 100 hours, you can expect to get another 30,000 hours on average out of it. But if you have a refurbished receiver which already has 25,000 hours on it, you can only expect another 5000 hours.

[paulman182]

The only used receiver I have ever gotten was a D11 to replace one that failed.

I have never gotten a used DVR, but none of my DVRs have ever needed replacement.

I would very much want a new one on replacement or upgrade--I can't really say why, and I don't really know the logic of it. It's just a "want."

As far as different manufacturers using different shades of silver, don't forget that today some DirecTV DVRs are shiny, "piano" black and some are flat black.

[xIsamuTM]

oooh, shiny!!

/add

[Jhon69]

That would certainly be unacceptable BKC, although there have been threads about new equipment malfunctioning as well. The point is, if used or refurbed equipment works good (which was not the case with you), why does it matter? Nobody has yet answered that.


I thought I did.New install means New.:sure:

Replacement means Refurb.;)

[surfmaui03]

That would certainly be unacceptable BKC, although there have been threads about new equipment malfunctioning as well. The point is, if used or refurbed equipment works good (which was not the case with you), why does it matter? Nobody has yet answered that.



Why would someone pay the same price for used equipment, as new? $199 fee just to get the receiver, should get you a new box. I understand paying a monthly lease fee, whether its new or used. But the initial cost of the box, should entitle you to a new unit if you`re a new customer. Since I am an existing customer, if my receiver failed, I would have no problem with it being REPLACED with a used one. But if I wanted to add another receiver, and was brought a used one, and charged the full price for upgrading, I would have a problem. I fail to see your logic in paying "new price" for something used....Now if the OP was given the receiver for free, then he shouldn't have a beef.
Just my take on it....

[eakes]

Personally, I would prefer a refurb HR20 than a new HRxx. Properly repaired a refurb, out of the box, has a longer life expectancy than a new unit out of the box - the refurb has already had its infant failure corrected, the new one is yet to happen. A few cosmetic scratches are inconsequential,

The $199 price is a lease fee and is the same regardless the manufacture status of the unit. The big plus for me is the on-board OTA tuner. I really hated to have to replace a failed H20 with an H21!

[Upstream]

Why would someone pay the same price for used equipment, as new? $199 fee just to get the receiver, should get you a new box. I understand paying a monthly lease fee, whether its new or used. But the initial cost of the box, should entitle you to a new unit if you`re a new customer.

The upfront fee is not a price you are paying for the equipment. It is an "Upgrade Lease Fee". You can look at this as a fee you pay for the right to lease equipment, or a hefty first month lease price, or just a fee that DirecTV charges because they can. But it is not the price of the box or a deposit. And it doesn't entitle you to any additional ownership rights on the box.

[surfmaui03]

The upfront fee is not a price you are paying for the equipment. It is an "Upgrade Lease Fee". You can look at this as a fee you pay for the right to lease equipment, or a hefty first month lease price, or just a fee that DirecTV charges because they can. But it is not the price of the box or a deposit. And it doesn't entitle you to any additional ownership rights on the box.



I understand that. But it is a fee just to "upgrade" the box. If you`re being charged that price, how is it fair to get the luck of the draw between new and used? I know they refurbish them, and the odds of them failing are slim. But, used electronic equipment can and does fail. Like I said, I can understand paying the same monthly lease fee, and getting new or used, so long as it works right. But I think its absurd to charge that much just to have the right to upgrade to their DVR, then get a used piece of equipment. But back when they started charging their "upgrade" fee, at least you got a brand new DVR.....But Direct still is the best provider around, so I guess we are at their will when it comes to these fees.

[surfmaui03]

Personally, I would prefer a refurb HR20 than a new HRxx. Properly repaired a refurb, out of the box, has a longer life expectancy than a new unit out of the box - the refurb has already had its infant failure corrected, the new one is yet to happen. A few cosmetic scratches are inconsequential,

The $199 price is a lease fee and is the same regardless the manufacture status of the unit. The big plus for me is the on-board OTA tuner. I really hated to have to replace a failed H20 with an H21!


I too would prefer a refurb HR20. But, consider a new customer to directv, paying the same price to get a used dvr, when say his buddy gets a brand new one.

[Upstream]

I understand that. But it is a fee just to "upgrade" the box. If you`re being charged that price, how is it fair to get the luck of the draw between new and used? I know they refurbish them, and the odds of them failing are slim. But, used electronic equipment can and does fail. Like I said, I can understand paying the same monthly lease fee, and getting new or used, so long as it works right. But I think its absurd to charge that much just to have the right to upgrade to their DVR, then get a used piece of equipment. But back when they started charging their "upgrade" fee, at least you got a brand new DVR.....But Direct still is the best provider around, so I guess we are at their will when it comes to these fees.


But if you get a refurb and it fails, you just send it back and get another one. So really, what difference does it make if your first one is new or refurb.

[surfmaui03]

But if you get a refurb and it fails, you just send it back and get another one. So really, what difference does it make if your first one is new or refurb.



To me, the difference is being charged the same price as new equipment, and getting used...

[Upstream]

But you already said you understand that the fee you are charged is not a price you pay for the equipment. So you are not paying the same price as new and getting used, since you are not paying a price for the equipment at all.

[surfmaui03]

But you already said you understand that the fee you are charged is not a price you pay for the equipment. So you are not paying the same price as new and getting used, since you are not paying a price for the equipment at all.



Technically you are paying for the equipment, You just dont own it! $199 and a two year commitment is understandable for new equipment. Why is it hard to understand, that they are charging people full price for used equipment that they most likely have made their money off of already? Please tell me how much it costs direct for each HDDVR? Now if they offered used equipment with no upgrade fee, and just the monthly lease fee, that's totally acceptable. Again, I love Direct and would never consider going elsewhere. But some of their practices, I think are wrong.

[Upstream]

Surf -- I understand how someone paying $200 and entering into a 2 year commitment would think that they are offsetting the cost of the equipment and should get new equipment. But the price and the commitment really have nothing to do with the cost of the equipment or helping DirecTV recoup its costs. Since DirecTV gets the equipment back, their only cost for the equipment is the depreciation for the months you use it, and they get paid for that through the monthly fees you pay DirecTV for the months you use the equipment. (By the way, in Feb 2008, DirecTV reported that their cost for an HD-DVR was $260, and they estimated it would be $220 by Feb 2009, so if you are paying $199 for that reciever, you are essentially paying the entire cost of the receiver, but DirecTV still owns it.)

[surfmaui03]

Surf -- I understand how someone paying $200 and entering into a 2 year commitment would think that they are offsetting the cost of the equipment and should get new equipment. But the price and the commitment really have nothing to do with the cost of the equipment or helping DirecTV recoup its costs. Since DirecTV gets the equipment back, their only cost for the equipment is the depreciation for the months you use it, and they get paid for that through the monthly fees you pay DirecTV for the months you use the equipment. (By the way, in Feb 2008, DirecTV reported that their cost for an HD-DVR was $260, and they estimated it would be $220 by Feb 2009, so if you are paying $199 for that reciever, you are essentially paying the entire cost of the receiver, but DirecTV still owns it.)


I understand what you`re saying. But I dont think its right. So if direct estimates it costs them $260 for a dvr, they charge the customer $199, that's a difference of $61. You say they make up for it with monthly fees. Thats paying for the DVR. I guess my main complaint is, after 30 days, unless you have the protection plan (which I think is wrong for leased equipment), you`re out $199. Now if I`m going to take that chance, I would perfer to do that with new equipment, rather than used. You even said your self in a few posts back, that refurbished equipment is older, and therefore closer to failing.

[MartyS]

I understand what you`re saying. But I dont think its right. So if direct estimates it costs them $260 for a dvr, they charge the customer $199, that's a difference of $61. You say they make up for it with monthly fees. Thats paying for the DVR. I guess my main complaint is, after 30 days, unless you have the protection plan (which I think is wrong for leased equipment), you`re out $199. Now if I`m going to take that chance, I would perfer to do that with new equipment, rather than used. You even said your self in a few posts back, that refurbished equipment is older, and therefore closer to failing.

Just to put it in perspective, and I'm not supporting the lease fee, mind you, but when you sign up for cable, and pay anywhere from $11 to $18 per month (as we do down here) you still don't get a new box, it's always used and/or refurbished, and over the course of the year or so, you're paying the same amount in increased monthly fees to ComCast or whoever for their used box.

[raott]

Just to put it in perspective, and I'm not supporting the lease fee, mind you, but when you sign up for cable, and pay anywhere from $11 to $18 per month (as we do down here) you still don't get a new box, it's always used and/or refurbished, and over the course of the year or so, you're paying the same amount in increased monthly fees to ComCast or whoever for their used box.

But under the cable model, when the box quits working, it is simply swapped out, you don't have to worry about a $20 fee (which, unless the language of the terms have changed, they could charge you for a new box if it is out of warranty) and a 50/50 shot at the CSR giving you a new 2 year commitment

[Upstream]

I understand what you`re saying. But I dont think its right. So if direct estimates it costs them $260 for a dvr, they charge the customer $199, that's a difference of $61. You say they make up for it with monthly fees. Thats paying for the DVR. I guess my main complaint is, after 30 days, unless you have the protection plan (which I think is wrong for leased equipment), you`re out $199. Now if I`m going to take that chance, I would perfer to do that with new equipment, rather than used. You even said your self in a few posts back, that refurbished equipment is older, and therefore closer to failing.

Surf -- Yes, I said earlier that refurb equipment is is older and closer to failing. I also said that if DirecTV lives up to their part, and replaces failed leased equipment at no cost or obligation to the customer, then the customer isn't out anything if refurb equipment fails. They just get another box at no cost or obligation.

The $199 and two year commitment have nothing to do with the cost of the box. If you pay $199 for an HD-DVR and quit DirecTV 2 months later (paying $400 in early termination fees), you will have paid DirecTV about $600 for a box that cost them $220. And DirecTV gets the box back to send out to another customer (and collect another $199). These fees are fees DirecTV charges to boost profitability and reduce churn. They have zero to do with the cost of the box. I think the fee/commitment model is a poor model, but it is the model DirecTV has selected. And it has nothing to do with whether you get a new or refurb box.

[surfmaui03]

Just to put it in perspective, and I'm not supporting the lease fee, mind you, but when you sign up for cable, and pay anywhere from $11 to $18 per month (as we do down here) you still don't get a new box, it's always used and/or refurbished, and over the course of the year or so, you're paying the same amount in increased monthly fees to ComCast or whoever for their used box.



Agreed. However, with cable, You dont pay an up front fee just to get their equipment. And if your box goes down, they replace it with no charge to you. So yes you pay a higher monthly lease fee to them, where with direct you save in monthly fees (and 1000 times better PQ, service, etc..)

[surfmaui03]

Surf -- Yes, I said earlier that refurb equipment is is older and closer to failing. I also said that if DirecTV lives up to their part, and replaces failed leased equipment at no cost or obligation to the customer, then the customer isn't out anything if refurb equipment fails. They just get another box at no cost or obligation.

The $199 and two year commitment have nothing to do with the cost of the box. If you pay $199 for an HD-DVR and quit DirecTV 2 months later (paying $400 in early termination fees), you will have paid DirecTV about $600 for a box that cost them $220. And DirecTV gets the box back to send out to another customer (and collect another $199). These fees are fees DirecTV charges to boost profitability and reduce churn. They have zero to do with the cost of the box. I think the fee/commitment model is a poor model, but it is the model DirecTV has selected. And it has nothing to do with whether you get a new or refurb box.



Unfortuanly, direct doesn't live up to their part. If you dont have the service plan, you`re out of luck. They are pretty clear on the warranty of your LEASED receiver( as I have found out 3 months ago when my HR 20 went dead). But again, despite my opinion of some of their policies, I couldn't imagine having cable or dish as my provider....

[shovelhd]

Agreed. However, with cable, You dont pay an up front fee just to get their equipment.

That, I believe, is the root of the whole issue for those who do have an issue with this sales model. Those that got free D12's as part of a "free" installation, would they care if a replacement was new or used? I know I wouldn't.

The argument is flawed. It's a perception issue. D* could easily raise the lease/mirror fee to $10/mo. like the cable companies and remove the upfront cost. If that were the case, would they still care if the receiver was new or used? Would they expect new equipment? How would they feel about continuing to pay more for the receiver every month, just to make sure they had new equipment?

[surfmaui03]

That, I believe, is the root of the whole issue for those who do have an issue with this sales model. Those that got free D12's as part of a "free" installation, would they care if a replacement was new or used? I know I wouldn't.

The argument is flawed. It's a perception issue. D* could easily raise the lease/mirror fee to $10/mo. like the cable companies and remove the upfront cost. If that were the case, would they still care if the receiver was new or used? Would they expect new equipment? How would they feel about continuing to pay more for the receiver every month, just to make sure they had new equipment?


Sorry, the argument is not flawed. We`re talking about a fee just to get the equipment, not the monthly lease fee on top of that. Of course most people wouldn't care if they got used equipment, so long as they weren't paying a $199 fee just to get it!
Not to mention a poor warranty that comes with the lease.

[Mertzen]

Many other issues such as cabling, power, dish alignment, etc. are diagnosed as receiver issues quite often resulting in a perfectly fine receiver being replaced.

about 90% are misdiagnosed as bad IRDs.

[shovelhd]

Sorry, the argument is not flawed. We`re talking about a fee just to get the equipment, not the monthly lease fee on top of that. Of course most people wouldn't care if they got used equipment, so long as they weren't paying a $199 fee just to get it!
Not to mention a poor warranty that comes with the lease.

So what is your response to my questions in the second paragraph?

[surfmaui03]

So what is your response to my questions in the second paragraph?


I`m done arguing this point. If you and others think its OK to pay full price for used equipment, that you wont even own, then fine....go ahead and pay it...:grin:

[GutBomb]

I`m done arguing this point. If you and others think its OK to pay full price for used equipment, that you wont even own, then fine....go ahead and pay it...:grin:
and you go ahead and believe the falsehood that the lease fee is a "price for equipment" when it isn't.

[surfmaui03]

and you go ahead and believe the falsehood that the lease fee is a "price for equipment" when it isn't.



You`re the only one fooling yourself.....But I`m not going to argue with you. Believe what you want. Like I said, I like direct, and think they`re the best provider. But that doesn't mean they can do no wrong...:nono2:

[spartanstew]

Why would someone pay the same price for used equipment, as new? $199 fee just to get the receiver, should get you a new box. I understand paying a monthly lease fee, whether its new or used. But the initial cost of the box, should entitle you to a new unit if you`re a new customer. Since I am an existing customer, if my receiver failed, I would have no problem with it being REPLACED with a used one. But if I wanted to add another receiver, and was brought a used one, and charged the full price for upgrading, I would have a problem. I fail to see your logic in paying "new price" for something used....Now if the OP was given the receiver for free, then he shouldn't have a beef.
Just my take on it....

1. Nobody is paying a price for new and/or used equipment. Just an upfront fee
2. You're not entitled to anything.
3. You're not being charged the full price (see #1).
4. It's not my logic. It's the way it's done.
5. Again, you're not paying a "new price"

[surfmaui03]

1. Nobody is paying a price for new and/or used equipment. Just an upfront fee
2. You're not entitled to anything.
3. You're not being charged the full price (see #1).
4. It's not my logic. It's the way it's done.
5. Again, you're not paying a "new price"

So the receiver costs directv $260, you pay $199 just to get the receiver into your home, and yet you claim nobody is paying for the equipment? :lol: The point you have, is we`re not being charged "full price". New or used, it still costs us $199....And yet you see nothing wrong with that.... I love directv, and would never switch to another provider... Yet there are too many cheerleaders here, who think directv is like a God, and can do no wrong....:rolleyes:

[spartanstew]

They charge $199 to get a leased receiver. Their cost has nothing to do with it. They can charge whatever they want and you can either pay it or not pay it. If it cost them $1 to make the box, I'd still pay $199 if I valued their service. They are, by the way, in the business of making money.
I have no idea what it costs D* to manufacture a DVR and I don't care. I look at what it costs me and either pay it or don't.

And you're right, I see nothing wrong with D* charging whatever cost customers are willing to pay. If that makes me a cheerleader in your mind, so be it. In my mind, it's common sense. Unfortunately, it's not so common anymore. If you don't like the way they do business you have other options. I think the upfront cost (which is usually reduced or waived, anyway) is fair. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. And since I'm just using the box until I return it, as long as it worked, I wouldn't care if it's new/used/refurbed. I'm just not that materialistic.


:rolleyes: <----look, I can use that cool rolleyes emoticon too. WooHoo.

[surfmaui03]

They charge $199 to get a leased receiver. Their cost has nothing to do with it. They can charge whatever they want and you can either pay it or not pay it. If it cost them $1 to make the box, I'd still pay $199 if I valued their service. They are, by the way, in the business of making money.
I have no idea what it costs D* to manufacture a DVR and I don't care. I look at what it costs me and either pay it or don't.

And you're right, I see nothing wrong with D* charging whatever cost customers are willing to pay. If that makes me a cheerleader in your mind, so be it. In my mind, it's common sense. Unfortunately, it's not so common anymore. If you don't like the way they do business you have other options. I think the upfront cost (which is usually reduced or waived, anyway) is fair. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. And since I'm just using the box until I return it, as long as it worked, I wouldn't care if it's new/used/refurbed. I'm just not that materialistic.


:rolleyes: <----look, I can use that cool rolleyes emoticon too. WooHoo.



Whatever....