Is my TV dying or has Directv PQ gotten worse?

[sigma1914]

Has any others noticed HD channels seem a bit more compressed? On darker scenes, I can see macroblocking of colors. It really shows up on walls, behind actors. Outdoor scenes look great. Signal strengths are great. Blu-Rays play well, so I'm confused.

[harsh]

Some mention of the programming in question would be useful.

Is this isolated to specific HD channels or across the board?

Have you tried connecting to the TV using a different means?

Are you using some sort of external video switch?

[sigma1914]

Some mention of the programming in question would be useful.

Is this isolated to specific HD channels or across the board?

Have you tried connecting to the TV using a different means?

Are you using some sort of external video switch?

I've seen it on TNT-HD, CBS-HD, ABC-HD, HBO-HD (MPeg4), too name a few. There is no video switch. Here's a picture that represents an exaggerated version of what I am seeing.


http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1373562~7a7888682752c41a7130b4212c5b6fea/NBC.compression.jpg

[dcowboy7]

its your tv.

[Doug Brott]

I've not seen any difference

[Michael D'Angelo]

I have not noticed any difference here either.

[say-what]

I can't say that I've seen any differences lately. All seems fine here.

[sigma1914]

It really shows up on walls. Oh well, I ordered a new 46" Samsung last week.

[babzog]

I've seen this recently too and wondered the same thing. TV with other content is fine so I suspect it's D* doing their compression thing like they did with SD channels.

[studdad]

I've seen this recently too and wondered the same thing. TV with other content is fine so I suspect it's D* doing their compression thing like they did with SD channels.+1, I brought this up about a month ago and was landblasted. They have been monkeying around and hoping no one will notice.

[alv]

The picture is softer, particularly on HD locals

[randyk47]

I see no appreciable difference between my DirecTV feed and my OTA when comparing locals and I can't say I've noticed any degradation over the past few months. OTA, at least locally, has always been just a bit better but I get fantastic signal out of my antenna. My spot beam stays in the range of 95-100 on DirecTV so I'm catching about as good as it gets on the that side. If I have an issue it's more that the original content being transmitted wasn't done in HD but it's being shown on a HD channel.

[t_h]

I've seen the same "creeping moss" effect in dark scenes, mostly on a background wall just like the OP. Didnt notice it a year ago. Looks like a low bitrate to me.

Also seen much worse SD quality this year. The NFLST SD channels looked so incredibly awful that I wont be renewing the package. Looked like broadcasts from the 70's.

[Grentz]

The picture is softer, particularly on HD locals

This is something I have noticed. My locals, especially CBS, have gotten a lot "softer" overall. National channels still look the same.

[narrod]

I've seen the picture get quite a bit poorer and darker over the last couple months. I've had dish tweaked and all connections checked. I see in on all three HD sets. Not so much on the SD sets in my home.

[sigma1914]

Well, maybe I wasn't alone. At first, I thought I was being too picky. Our locals had been on par with OTA.

[jjohns]

It's not your tv.

[t_h]

You need Monster cables. That'll solve everything!

[peano]

I notice a softer picture too. Sheesh! It better not continue like this.

[studdad]

I notice a softer picture too. Sheesh! It better not continue like this.yup, softer picture, and more noise.

[Jimmy 440]

Some of the HD cable stations like TNT,TBS & SPIKE IMHO have had softer pictures lately.Especially during nights scenes & scenes with smoke they get real blotchy.
The big networks & the ESPNs seem fine.

[rally]

My OTA and DTV picture quality are close but I've noticed a slight degradation in the past few months on DTV. I thought it was my eyesight changing!

[l8er]

.... landblasted. .... [pednatic on]

lambasted? ( 1 : to assault violently : beat , whip 2 : to attack verbally : censure)

[/pedantic off]

[kvandmx]

Okay, Im glad I am not the only one. I do notice it more on the network channels, But it seems it is only slightly better on OTA. But I do notice it quite a bit on HBO as well. Maybe we are all watching too many Blu-ray discs and trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges. :)

[studdad]

[pednatic on]

lambasted? ( 1 : to assault violently : beat , whip 2 : to attack verbally : censure)

[/pedantic off]lol, ty.

[Shuma13]

Same Here. Big Love on HBO was horrible this week, everyone was blotchy. I ordered a new lamp for my DLP as I thought it was going.

[peaches]

It's not your TV, same here. The rest of you that haven't noticed such are probably already hypnotized by D*V.

[kvandmx]

Burn Notice on USA looked less than stellar tonight. It is usually pretty good. Maybe I'm just losing my mind!:mad:

[Shuma13]

FWIW

HR21 (Samsung DLP, HDMI) shows this "dark bleeding" really badly

New HR22 (Vizio LCD, HDMI) in another room is not that bad. Shows a little bleeding.

[texasmoose]

I've noticed some HD picture degradation in the last couple of months too.:(

[Tele-TV]

Sigma, I love! your avatar. Anyways, back to topic. :)

[kvandmx]

FWIW

HR21 (Samsung DLP, HDMI) shows this "dark bleeding" really badly

New HR22 (Vizio LCD, HDMI) in another room is not that bad. Shows a little bleeding.

So do you believe it is the Samsung or the HR21?

[alv]

It is definitely DTV. I had two of the best ISF calibrators over for dinner this week and they immediately commented on the soft picture. I have a Samsung projector designed by Joe Kane and all was well on Bluray

[sigma1914]

Same Here. Big Love on HBO was horrible this week, everyone was blotchy. I ordered a new lamp for my DLP as I thought it was going.

Big Love's PQ was horrible! It was the show that really made me question Directv & my TV.


I watched an old recording of Life On Mars to compare it to this weeks episode & there was an obvious better PQ on the old episode.

[peano]

I was recommending Directv to my friends and family for the improved HD PQ over E*. NO MORE!!! I think E* is "better" out of the two now. (They are both now terrible).

Now I am stuck with a two year commitment to crappy PQ and a DVR that goes bonk to me all the time.

Time to downgrade to the minimum. Good thing I kept Dish Network. At least I can enjoy a good DVR that doesn't make noises.

[kvandmx]

Quantity not quality! That seems to be the trend anymore! We pay thousands of dollars for high end electronics and are at the mercy of the service providers!

[Greg Alsobrook]

I have noticed some extreme fuzziness (creeping moss) during dark scenes and/or dark objects on TBS-HD over the past few weeks that I don't remember seeing before. I also saw a bit of fuzziness on ESPN-HD a couple nights ago... kinda reminded me of what it looks like on my buddy's setup with Comcast.

[Jhon69]

I was recommending Directv to my friends and family for the improved HD PQ over E*. NO MORE!!! I think E* is "better" out of the two now. (They are both now terrible).

Now I am stuck with a two year commitment to crappy PQ and a DVR that goes bonk to me all the time.

Time to downgrade to the minimum. Good thing I kept Dish Network. At least I can enjoy a good DVR that doesn't make noises.


Think we can all agree Dish has a decent DVR.Now all they need is Programming!.:sure:

[Shuma13]

So do you believe it is the Samsung or the HR21?

I am pretty sure it is the HR21. PS3 Bluray plays fine.

[studdad]

I have noticed some extreme fuzziness (creeping moss) during dark scenes and/or dark objects on TBS-HD over the past few weeks that I don't remember seeing before. I also saw a bit of fuzziness on ESPN-HD a couple nights ago... kinda reminded me of what it looks like on my buddy's setup with Comcast.bingo, looks like the results of a lower bit rate to me.

[LarryFlowers]

Haven't you all noticed... around 5:30AM all of the channels run the image below, add that to the silver posts the DirecTV tech came by and installed in my skull with funny little wire antennas hanging off them and I am probably being regularly "hypnotized" by DirecTV into believing there is no difference in the picture...

Sorry folks... Other than some glitches with CBS, already explained by their people, I am getting a great picture from DirecTV, but then again there are those wires hanging out of my skull..

[narrod]

We will never get DirecTv to admit it but they are clearly compressing the bit rate more and more. When I switched from Comcast to DirecTv ten years ago I was simply blown away be the high quality picture that was consistent across channels and this was SD.

Over the years it has gotten progressively worse in both SD and HD. The HD is still better than any HD cable that I've personally seen. I think I understand their dilemma. Customers clamor for more HD channels. Everyone wants HD locals. They have only so much bandwidth.

I would prefer fewer channels in higher quality for both SD and HD. I wish this was a package option. I would take half the channels if they were broadcast at a significantly
higher bit rate. Actually, it could be much less than half and I wouldn't expect the monthly cost to be reduced and, depending on quality, would be willing to pay more for fewer, high quality picture, channels.

Analogous to the HD DVRs. I've gotten used to the non-Tivo interface and actually now prefer it to Tivo. The constant software upgrades that add more features and break something else are irritating. For me, forget the new features and make the basic functions bulletproof and I would be happier.

[RAD]

We will never get DirecTv to admit it but they are clearly compressing the bit rate more and more.

If we start seeing more then 5 HD channels running on a Ka transponder I might agree with this. But as long as they're only putting 5 HD channels on a Ka transponder what does increasing the compressiong do for them?
Sorry but until they do it doesn't make sense that they would dial compression up.

[studdad]

If we start seeing more then 5 HD channels running on a Ka transponder I might agree with this. But as long as they're only putting 5 HD channels on a Ka transponder what does increasing the compressiong do for them?
Sorry but until they do it doesn't make sense that they would dial compression up.Well something is happening, and the difference has occured recently.

[narrod]

If we start seeing more then 5 HD channels running on a Ka transponder I might agree with this. But as long as they're only putting 5 HD channels on a Ka transponder what does increasing the compressiong do for them?
Sorry but until they do it doesn't make sense that they would dial compression up.

I can't argue with you but can only share what I'm seeing. I was convinced it was my problem until I saw it on all three HD sets and DVRs and had DirecTv out here for a couple of hours tweaking the installation. I have never gotten a stronger signal than I am now. I don't have the technical background to explain it.

[t_h]

If we start seeing more then 5 HD channels running on a Ka transponder I might agree with this. But as long as they're only putting 5 HD channels on a Ka transponder what does increasing the compressiong do for them?
Sorry but until they do it doesn't make sense that they would dial compression up.

Another easy question to answer: to see if anyone notices. If they dont get a flurry of complaint calls, then they could add more channels to those transponders.

[RAD]

Another easy question to answer: to see if anyone notices. If they dont get a flurry of complaint calls, then they could add more channels to those transponders.

That could very well be since E* folks say that their downrezzed HD with 7 channels on a transponder look just as good as D*'s HD channels. ;)

[harsh]

We will never get DirecTv to admit it but they are clearly compressing the bit rate more and more.While it is certainly possible that this is the reason, it may also be attributable to a reduction in signal conditioning that they are doing to the content. If they are no longer punching the content up (ala plasma TV) as some speculated that they were doing, it may take more bandwidth than was required previously to get truly black blacks and hide some of the more obvious compression artifacts.

[bonscott87]

If DirecTV was really downrezzing MPEG4 HD then it would be all over AVS with technical specs and proof. And that is not the case.

I have not seen any reduction in PQ on any channels. They are as crisp and perfect as they were when launched. Frankly I think some of you are trying to see things that aren't there.

[narrod]

While it is certainly possible that this is the reason, it may also be attributable to a reduction in signal conditioning that they are doing to the content. If they are no longer punching the content up (ala plasma TV) as some speculated that they were doing, it may take more bandwidth than was required previously to get truly black blacks and hide some of the more obvious compression artifacts.

Whatever they're doing I'm convinced they're degrading the picture quality. I don't understand why more aren't seeing it. This group is more attentive than the average viewer.

[Sartori]

If DirecTV was really downrezzing MPEG4 HD then it would be all over AVS with technical specs and proof. And that is not the case.

I have not seen any reduction in PQ on any channels. They are as crisp and perfect as they were when launched. Frankly I think some of you are trying to see things that aren't there.

Or, maybe you can't see things that are there......

[babzog]

Or, maybe you can't see things that are there......

+1

This is a relatively new phenomenon which might explain the lack of attention thus far. But, it is there (not everywhere, mind you) in all it's horrid high-def blockiness. When a black scene looks like a "shades of black" rainbow instead of a black scene, there's a PQ issue.

[kvandmx]

Okay, I am currently comparing tonights episode of NCIS on CBS. I receive my local CBS affiliate via Directv in HD and I also am able to receive the same affiliate via OTA. The D* feed exibits the "Crawling moss" effect during the darker scenes. The OTA feed does not suffer from this Phenomena! So it appears that a certain amount of bit starving is occuring through the D* feed. It is indeed happening....

Weirdness: The same OTA signal delivered through the AM21 to the HR21 indeed has the same Issue as the Sat feed. It is not as bad but it is noticibly worse than the OTA thru Television tuner....

[RobertE]

Okay, I am currently comparing tonights episode of NCIS on CBS. I receive my local CBS affiliate via Directv in HD and I also am able to receive the same affiliate via OTA. The D* feed exibits the "Crawling moss" effect during the darker scenes. The OTA feed does not suffer from this Phenomena! So it appears that a certain amount of bit starving is occuring through the D* feed. It is indeed happening....

Weirdness: The same OTA signal delivered through the AM21 to the HR21 indeed has the same Issue as the Sat feed. It is not as bad but it is noticibly worse than the OTA thru Television tuner....

So by your own observations, DirecTv is bitstarving the feed through the AM21. :confused:

Wow, thats some feat. :rolleyes:

CBS has changed some stuff on their backend which is not playing nice with the encoders that DirecTv uses. I don't have any information as to when they expect it to be fixed. I just hope it's soon.

[RobertE]

Or, maybe you can't see things that are there......

Or maybe I can't see things that are not there....:rolleyes:

I just don't see what everyone is complaining about.

For those that claim to see this "issue", how about some pictures?

[peaches]

Whatever you guys that see no difference are smoking, pleeze don't pass it around. lol

[kvandmx]

So by your own observations, DirecTv is bitstarving the feed through the AM21. :confused:

Wow, thats some feat. :rolleyes:

CBS has changed some stuff on their backend which is not playing nice with the encoders that DirecTv uses. I don't have any information as to when they expect it to be fixed. I just hope it's soon.

All I was saying is that whatever processing the HR21/AM21 are doing is having an affect on the PQ as compared to OTA directly to tv.

[studdad]

+1

This is a relatively new phenomenon which might explain the lack of attention thus far. But, it is there (not everywhere, mind you) in all it's horrid high-def blockiness. When a black scene looks like a "shades of black" rainbow instead of a black scene, there's a PQ issue.AND, I almost forgot. I have never seen the rainbow effect on D*, but I see it often now. Can't remember what it is technically called,,,,,dropped out of my memory, lol, but it is when you have a white background, for instance, and that background slowly transitions from super white to off-white at the edges. Instead of a smooth transition, it gradiates/stairsteps out in a rainbow effect.

[studdad]

All I was saying is that whatever processing the HR21/AM21 are doing is having an affect on the PQ as compared to OTA directly to tv.And guess what? This issue started for me at the same time all the other issues started, ie., with the 029b update,,,in November I think. Then was carried over, and even got worse, with 2af update in mid December. So, maybe D* isn't bitstarving the feed, but the DVR updates are causing the issue, along with the audio and video stutters, burps, drops, etc.

[GregLee]

I have a Vizio LCD connected to an H21, and its picture suddenly got lots darker sometime in the last two days. Not bad, just dark. I turned up the TV's brightness control 10 notches to compensate. I thought maybe that TV was starting to fail (and maybe it is). I didn't notice any change on a Samsung plasma I have connected to an HR20.

[alv]

These kind of threads benefit from setup information. The better the set, the easier it is to see these differences. They are there. I have Joe Kane Samsung projector, VP50pro processor and the soft picture is easy to see. An OTA comparison takes only one a/b to conclude which is better. Is try for essentially all guests as well.

[bonscott87]

Or, maybe you can't see things that are there......

So what exact channels/programs are you guys talking about?

Last 2 days we have watched:

CSI - local CBS via sat MPEG4
Burn Notice - USA HD
Leverage - TNT HD
Hockey game on FS Detroit HD
Battlestar Galactica - SciFi HD
Some Demolition show on Discovery HD
Dirty Jobs on Discovery HD
Parts of programs on Science HD

I have seen no PQ problems on any of these programs on my 2 week old 50" Plasma. I can see so much more detail on it then my old rear projection. You'd think if there were a problem I'd see it on this new set.

Now on something like Leverage it is a bit "soft" but that's the way the program is filmed. When a commercial comes on it's as sharp as a tack. Maybe you guys are seeing what is supposed to be there and thinking it's a PQ problem?

I don't know.

List specific examples and I'll record the same and check.

[t_h]

AND, I almost forgot. I have never seen the rainbow effect on D*, but I see it often now. Can't remember what it is technically called,,,,,dropped out of my memory, lol, but it is when you have a white background, for instance, and that background slowly transitions from super white to off-white at the edges. Instead of a smooth transition, it gradiates/stairsteps out in a rainbow effect.

That was a major problem with the NFLST SD broadcasts this past season. All the lines on the field would do the rainbow dance.

Looked like a picture from a set of rabbit ears on a 1970's television.

Which is why I wont be laying out $300 for that next year.

[narrod]

So what exact channels/programs are you guys talking about?

Last 2 days we have watched:

CSI - local CBS via sat MPEG4
Burn Notice - USA HD
Leverage - TNT HD
Hockey game on FS Detroit HD
Battlestar Galactica - SciFi HD
Some Demolition show on Discovery HD
Dirty Jobs on Discovery HD
Parts of programs on Science HD

I have seen no PQ problems on any of these programs on my 2 week old 50" Plasma. I can see so much more detail on it then my old rear projection. You'd think if there were a problem I'd see it on this new set.

Now on something like Leverage it is a bit "soft" but that's the way the program is filmed. When a commercial comes on it's as sharp as a tack. Maybe you guys are seeing what is supposed to be there and thinking it's a PQ problem?

I don't know.

List specific examples and I'll record the same and check.

I'm experiencing the problem, especially a darker picture, across channels (SD and HD). It's obvious and especially apparent when I compare an OTA picture through a 700 with OTA directly into the TV. Of course, this only addresses OTA. Across the board, there is less detail and a softer HD picture.

The experts here say it can't be bit compression or EVERYONE would know DirecTv was doing it. I'm not qualified to know the technical problem but I know what I'm seeing on all three HD sets. I very seldom watch my three SD sets that are in guest rooms. For those who see no problem, I don't have an answer. I know what I've been seeing for the last couple of months.

[sigma1914]

.

List specific examples and I'll record the same and check.

Big Love (HBO West HD)
Trust Me (TNT-HD)
Gary Unmarried (CBS-HD in Dallas DMA)

Sports have looked great...I have NBALP & NHLCI. Outdoor scenes look great. I just see "mossing" on dark scenes and walls behind actors. It's not on all channels, either.

[Shuma13]

Big Love (HBO West HD)
Trust Me (TNT-HD)
Gary Unmarried (CBS-HD in Dallas DMA)

Sports have looked great...I have NBALP & NHLCI. Outdoor scenes look great. I just see "mossing" on dark scenes and walls behind actors. It's not on all channels, either.

Once again this week, Big Love was awful. Blotchy faces, etc.

[bwaldron]

Once again this week, Big Love was awful. Blotchy faces, etc.

Didn't look awful here -- or at least there was nothing that caught my attention in terms of PQ issues.

[Shuma13]

Didn't look awful here -- or at least there was nothing that caught my attention in terms of PQ issues.

This is what seems odd to me. I don't doubt that you don't see it. But there are others like that do. There has to be some explanation.

Lie to Me on Fox tonight is showing it also.

[bobfa]

I just switched out Comcast HD/DVR for the HR22. I'm sorry so say that the quality of the HD content on the Directv HR22 is markedly worse with the same set of cables, same tv, same configuration. If it weren't 1/2 as expensive at Comcast, I feel worse.