SWM LNB/KVH install

[Mustake]

Hello all, this is my first post here. I was directed to this site by KVH. I hope I'm in the right forum.

I work on yachts for a living and I'm very well versed in KVH and Seatel systems. This one job is unique in the fact that the owners home slip is under a covered shed so the KVH is useless when he's at his home port. So we decided to do a multi system install. I installed a KVH M3DX and all is well there.

I did some research on what kind of land based dish I would need to set up an A/B system between the two and I was told I need an SWM ODU LNB with a power inserter (PI-28). Let's keep in mind I'm very ignorant about the land based equipment and setup.

I have an installer install the dish and align it. I fire up the recievers and start my set up.

Here's what my system consist of:

SWM LNB
PI28 power inserter
one Ideal 85-333 3 way splitter
3 H21-100 receivers

The A/B switches are between the receivers and the splitter.

I have done a red button reset on the receivers and what I get is this:

I have the option for Round Dish, 2 LNB Oval, 3 LNB Oval, or 5 LNB Multi Sat.
I select 5 LNB Multi Sat and proceed with the set up. When it gets to the transponder screen I see this:

101 - 28 30 & 32 are in the mid 90's. All others are 0
110 - 8 10 & 12 are 100. All others are N/A
119 - 1 through 21 are N/A. All others are 0
103(a) are all N/A

No matter what I try, this is what I get. I can take the power inserter out and still get the same results. I can hook the line from the LNB to one receiver direct or with the power inserter and I get the exact same results. I have tried every dish option allowed in the receiver.

I have checked voltage on the inserter and it's 29.3VDC at the inserter and at the LNB. I originally thought that maybe my run from the inserter to the LNB was too long and I now have it less than 50 feet.

All the research I have done (mostly on this site) have produce the same results. I feel the system is configured the way it should be and maybe I'm missing something in setting up the receivers.

(I tried to post a URL but it would not let me since this is my first post. It shows the way I wired my system. If it would be helpful to see this PM me and I will send it to you.)

If any of you guys can help it would be greatly appreciated!

Thank You

[Mertzen]

A SWM LNB needs a PI-21 which supplies 21V. Those 29 volts you are sending will most likely mess with the LNB.

Did you use the proper coordinates for the dish? You need directions for a 5LNB not a 3 LNB.

[veryoldschool]

A SWM LNB needs a PI-21 which supplies 21V. Those 29 volts you are sending will most likely mess with the LNB.

Did you use the proper coordinates for the dish? You need directions for a 5LNB not a 3 LNB.
Nope, I've been using the 29 volt since DirecTV sent it to me with the SWMLNB, and have zero problems.

[veryoldschool]

Hello all, this is my first post here. I was directed to this site by KVH. I hope I'm in the right forum.

I work on yachts for a living and I'm very well versed in KVH and Seatel systems. This one job is unique in the fact that the owners home slip is under a covered shed so the KVH is useless when he's at his home port. So we decided to do a multi system install. I installed a KVH M3DX and all is well there.

I did some research on what kind of land based dish I would need to set up an A/B system between the two and I was told I need an SWM ODU LNB with a power inserter (PI-28). Let's keep in mind I'm very ignorant about the land based equipment and setup.

I have an installer install the dish and align it. I fire up the recievers and start my set up.

Here's what my system consist of:

SWM LNB
PI28 power inserter
one Ideal 85-333 3 way splitter
3 H21-100 receivers

The A/B switches are between the receivers and the splitter.

I have done a red button reset on the receivers and what I get is this:

I have the option for Round Dish, 2 LNB Oval, 3 LNB Oval, or 5 LNB Multi Sat.
I select 5 LNB Multi Sat and proceed with the set up. When it gets to the transponder screen I see this:

101 - 28 30 & 32 are in the mid 90's. All others are 0
110 - 8 10 & 12 are 100. All others are N/A
119 - 1 through 21 are N/A. All others are 0
103(a) are all N/A

No matter what I try, this is what I get. I can take the power inserter out and still get the same results. I can hook the line from the LNB to one receiver direct or with the power inserter and I get the exact same results. I have tried every dish option allowed in the receiver.

I have checked voltage on the inserter and it's 29.3VDC at the inserter and at the LNB. I originally thought that maybe my run from the inserter to the LNB was too long and I now have it less than 50 feet.

All the research I have done (mostly on this site) have produce the same results. I feel the system is configured the way it should be and maybe I'm missing something in setting up the receivers.

(I tried to post a URL but it would not let me since this is my first post. It shows the way I wired my system. If it would be helpful to see this PM me and I will send it to you.)

If any of you guys can help it would be greatly appreciated!

Thank You
Each receiver needs to send a 2.3 MHz signal to the SWM. "I have zero idea of what "KVH" is, but "I'd guess" the A/B switch(es) may be giving you some troubles.
Reboot the SWM. Then boot "a receiver" without the A/B switch and see what happens.
Start with a simple setup [prove it works] and then add on.

[Mustake]

The coordinates were set by a home installer and I have read several threads that the 29v PI will work with the LNB but the 21 will not work with the SWM8.

???

[evan_s]

101 - 28 30 & 32 are in the mid 90's. All others are 0
110 - 8 10 & 12 are 100. All others are N/A
119 - 1 through 21 are N/A. All others are 0
103(a) are all N/A


Honestly I think the tech you had come out didn't have a clue and aimed the dish wrong. I'd bet you are aimed at 110 instead of 101.

You don't list where this is but go check www.dishpointer.com for the correct values in your area. I'd bet the dish is 9 degrees too far to the west.

[Mustake]

Each receiver needs to send a 2.3 MHz signal to the SWM. "I have zero idea of what "KVH" is, but "I'd guess" the A/B switch(es) may be giving you some troubles.
Reboot the SWM. Then boot "a receiver" without the A/B switch and see what happens.
Start with a simple setup [prove it works] and then add on.

Like I said, I have hooked the LNB and PI to one receiver directly, which bypasses the entire system on the boat. I get the exact same results.

A KVH is a Mobile Tracking Dish (kvh.com)

[evan_s]

The coordinates were set by a home installer and I have read several threads that the 29v PI will work with the LNB but the 21 will not work with the SWM8.

???

The 29 volt PI was originally released with the SWM8 and is required by the swm8 but it will work just fine with the SWMlnb and thats what they originally came with. The SWMLnb does use less power tho and can use the 21 volt PI which is probably cheaper to make =).

[doctor j]

I do not have any direct knowledge about the KVH system but have looked at options ,intallation manuals etc.
There are many variables in what you are trying to do!
The first order of business is to completely separate the systems and have them both working before trying to combine with an A/B switch.

I'm not certain the A/B switch will pass DC power and that may be one issue to start with.

Spitters and sat systems are tricky at best. Yes a SWM can be used with splitters but how to combine that with a KVH system escapes me.

My understanding is NO KVH system does 99 or 103 Ka band.
I believe the KVH system has only one sat output at a time and most do only 101. If 119 or especially 110 are involve other switching equipment is invovle and those signals could certainly alter the SWM.

If I recall the KVH has 4 output from the dome , but only 3 can be active to receivers. The 4th is a "control" line.

I'm not really visualizing how the 2 sat outputs can be combined.?!

The sat setup in the receiver may be entirely different and may have to be changed and receivers rebooted each time it is changed.
The more I thing about this the less I believe it can be done.

What sat setup do you use for KVH.

SWM lnb should be just that in the setup 5lnb SWM.
Receivers may not have the latest software if not on continuosly and may not have all options.

Sat signal suggest your looking at 110 so dish alignment may not be correct.

To refresh just take one receiver with PI and LNB and get that working first.

Doctor j

[doctor j]

[QUOTE=Mustake;1986262]Like I said, I have hooked the LNB and PI to one receiver directly, which bypasses the entire system on the boat. I get the exact same results.
QUOTE]


If thats true Dish is aimed at 110 and needs realignment.

Doctor j

[Mustake]

Honestly I think the tech you had come out didn't have a clue and aimed the dish wrong. I'd bet you are aimed at 110 instead of 101.

You don't list where this is but go check for the correct values in your area. I'd bet the dish is 9 degrees too far to the west.

77586 is the Zip. Seabrook TX is the city. Says it should 79 deg tilt 54 elevation and 188 az. Thats where it is, and if I try moving the dish all I do is decrease the strength in the transponders I do have, I do not gain any new ones at all.

[boba]

I would also question the splitters my SWM instructions have 2/4/8 port splitters that are approved for SWM. SL5S SWM integrated LNB uses a 21 volt(PI-21) power supply. SWM-8 modules use a 29 volt power supply(PI-28)

[evan_s]

77586 is the Zip. Seabrook TX is the city. Says it should 79 deg tilt 54 elevation and 188 az. Thats where it is, and if I try moving the dish all I do is decrease the strength in the transponders I do have, I do not gain any new ones at all.

Hmm thats odd. Thats what it tells me too. The AZ would be the one that would be off. Did you check it with a compass?

The reason this happens is the SL5 and SL5 SWNLnb has 3 little plastic covers (the bigger center one has 3 lnbs for 99/101/103) so people mistakenly think that it is a 3lnb dish and use the wrong aiming info. The old 3lnb dish picked up 101/110/119 and was aimed at 110. The SL5 picks up 99/101/103/110/119 and is aimed at 101. DirecTV only has 3 TPs on 110 which is why 101 showing only 3 tps is a pretty dead give away that the dish is incorrectly aimed at 110 instead of 101.

[Mustake]

After this post I should be able to post a link that I have been using for reference.

[Mustake]

http://hr20.dbstalk.com/Slimline%20SWM%20ODU%20LNB%20First%20Look.pdf

[Mustake]

Hmm thats odd. Thats what it tells me too. The AZ would be the one that would be off. Did you check it with a compass?

The reason this happens is the SL5 has 3 little plastic covers (the bigger center one has 3 lnbs for 99/101/103) so people mistakenly think that it is a 3lnb dish. The old 3lnb dish picked up 101/110/119 and was aimed at 110. The SL5 picks up 99/101/103/110/119 and is aimed at 101. DirecTV only has 3 TPs on 110 which is why 101 showing only 3 tps is a pretty dead give away that the dish is incorrectly aimed at 110 instead of 101.


I totally agree with you, but it didn't work. LOL

Trust me I have pulled my hair out on this deal!!!

EDIT: Yes we did check with a compass, actually three different compasses. I'm in the marine industry, we have really good compasses. :)

[PokerJoker]

I think the other responders here are missing the bigger picture.

If I am not mistaken, the KVH M3 DX is like all boat/RV domes, in that it can only receive one Ku-band satellite at a time, cannot receive any Ka-band at all, and appears to the receiver to be a conventional 18-inch round single-LNB antenna.

This is completely different from the SWM setup you are trying to use for the boat shed. So, every time you switch from one to the other, the receiver has to change from non-SWM operation, to SWM operation, and back again. I would guess that this is the source of your problem. It was never really intended for the receivers to easily or frequently switch from one to the other.

Generally you would have to power off everything (meaning, actually unplug it), make the A/B switch, power up the SWM PI, then, one at a time, power up each receiver and redo its satellite setup. Not a procedure you would want to do often.

You are between a rock and a hard place here. I assume that one of the primary reasons you chose a SWM system is that it only requires ONE coax to come on board the boat when it's in the shed. That is admirable, but the two systems (dome and SWM) are so different that you run into the nasty switchover issues stated above.

You could use a conventional Slimline (non-SWM) dish on the shed but that would require one coax per receiver to come on board, and run directly to each of your three A/B switches. This would probably require extra wiring (coax runs) on board to accommodate this. That might just be the lesser evil here. You would still need to rerun satellite setup every time you switched, so that the full HD lineup could be received.

I wish I had some other ideas to try. Sorry I wasn't more help.

Keith

(By the way, IMHO that dome, like all of its kind, is kind of a white elephant. The KVH auto-satellite-switch and HD adapters will shortly become useless. The MPEG-2 HD channels (e.g. 70-79) are going away. You will soon not be able to receive any Directv HD channels using that dome. Read the very fine print on the KVH web site. It still will work OK for the basic SD channel lineup on the 101 bird.)

[doctor j]

You need someone with a sat ID meter.
Birddog, SuperBuddy, etc
Your #'s are ok but try 8 to 10 degrees left and 4 to 5 degrees up.

Still lots of questions about how KVH system connects to control unit and to receivers.

I agree with PokerJoker as above!

Doctor j

[Mustake]

Poker and Doc, at this point I really don't care about the KVH, and you guys are all correct, it can only track one bird at a time.

But, that is irrelevant at this point. I can bypass the entire boats system and run direct to one IRD and I cannot get anything different. I know the switch over is going to be complicated and we knew this going in. But it should work when connected to a single IRD regardless.

The one cable thing is the EXACT reason we went SWM, but I also understood the switch would be difficult.

My biggest problem is I can't get the system to work at all as a stand alone, much less combined with the KVH.

I moved the dish today to the left and right, all that happened is I lost the transponders that I had. Never gained anything from it. I changed the elevation in small increments both ways and didn't see much change at all. When we tilted the dish we lost signal on 110.

I'm not completely stupid about how this works and I feel that I should at least get a weak signal on 101 instead of just the 28 30 and 32 which I believe are basically mimicked from the 110 bird (correct me if I'm wrong)

So from this point forward, let's just pretend the KVH is not part of it. If I can get it to work direct, I can figure out the procedure to switch.

In the morning I'm going to take the boat out and lock on with the KVH and do a software update. Don't know if it will help but I can't see where it will hurt.

Thanks all of you for all the input. It's wonderful to be able to discuss things like this instead trying to talk to DTV tech support or some local installer that didn't even know this technology existed. Thanks again!!!

[veryoldschool]

You know what:
"101 - 28 30 & 32 are in the mid 90's. All others are 0
110 - 8 10 & 12 are 100. All others are N/A
119 - 1 through 21 are N/A. All others are 0"

"I think"
101 is really [currently pointed at] 110
So 110 is "only" part of 119
Which would make 119 "nothing".

Move dish 9 degrees east and.....

[Mustake]

Tried all the advice today, even took the boat out and locked on with KVH and downloaded software updates on all 3 receivers.

I'm out of ideas...

[veryoldschool]

Tried all the advice today, even took the boat out and locked on with KVH and downloaded software updates on all 3 receivers.

I'm out of ideas...
The readings you posted [which I quoted above] "sure look like" you were pointed to the 110 SAT instead of the 101. EVERY reading you posted, would be exactly that if the dish was 9 degrees west of where it should be pointing.
Check here for the dish settings: http://www.dishpointer.com/

[doctor j]

I checked your settings with dishpointer.com and they are ok BUT
I agree with VOS, the dish alignment is not right.
Maybe a bad LNB but you need to get someone with some experience and hopefully a sat ID meter and get the Dish correct then add layers of complexity.

Doctor j

[doctor j]

Another quick thought.
Often the receiver in SWM mode gets locked into a "mode" right or wrong and won't behave correctly.
Can "reset" it by running satellite guided setup and select single lnb.

The run setup again and select 5 LNB.

Might need to get a temporary 18 " dish and get your receivers reset.

Doctor j

[Mustake]

We moved the dish today and all that happens is we lose the 3 transponders we originally had. As far as another 18" dish, I did that with the KVH.

I think I may have to contact DTV and try to get them to send me a new LNB.

As far as the switch over I think we're going to buy 3 more receivers and just have two seperate systems. After alot of thought, I believe this will be the less complicated way for the transition back and forth. Thoughts???

Let me pose one more question. Is it possible that this guy put the wrong LNB and it's hooked up to only the 110 port? The LNB looks like the SWM, but I don't know if they make a non SWM that looks the same. If you look at the link I posted above and go to the last page, the LNB I have looks identical to the top one in the last picture. But the dish is VERY difficult to access so I have not been able to actually see if it has one port or four. The installer claims it is an SWM...so who knows.

[veryoldschool]

We moved the dish today and all that happens is we lose the 3 transponders we originally had. As far as another 18" dish, I did that with the KVH.

I think I may have to contact DTV and try to get them to send me a new LNB.

As far as the switch over I think we're going to buy 3 more receivers and just have two seperate systems. After alot of thought, I believe this will be the less complicated way for the transition back and forth. Thoughts???

Let me pose one more question. Is it possible that this guy put the wrong LNB and it's hooked up to only the 110 port? The LNB looks like the SWM, but I don't know if they make a non SWM that looks the same. If you look at the link I posted above and go to the last page, the LNB I have looks identical to the top one in the last picture. But the dish is VERY difficult to access so I have not been able to actually see if it has one port or four. The installer claims it is an SWM...so who knows.
If the LNB has only one coax connection, it's a SWM [like the picture]. If there are four coax connectors, then it isn't a SWM.
Neither LNB [SWM or non] can be connected to "just the 110 port" since they both have some sort of mulit-switch.
Two separate systems "most likely" is a better way to go since a SWM system needs to have a constant receiver -> PI -> SWM connection for the 2.3 MHz comm signal, which the A/B switch would not let you have. With the A/B switch, each time you connected to the SWM, you'd need to reboot the SWM [PI] and then each receiver to reestablish the "comm" between everything.

Your "dual" system may work better if you don't use a SWM, but use a "standard" Slimline, since this doesn't have the 2.3 MHz comm, and "simply" uses the 13/18 volt, tone/no tone to select the correct SATs. This should interface well with your A/B switches. When the boat is out, select the KVH and at the dock, the Slimline. No rebooting of everything.
The Slimline has four outputs and if you need more use a Zinwell WB68 or WB616 multi-switch.

[Mustake]

The problem with that would be the multiple cables going into the boat. It has to be one cable. With that said, the easy way is not an option. But I really think the extra receivers is probably the best way. I just need to figure out the difference in monthly cost with that many receivers. The man has plenty of money and doubt he would have a problem with it. He just wants the **** to work. With a 3 million dollar boat I doubt and extra 40 or 50 bucks will deter him ;)

I still need to figure out why I can't get a signal from the SWM. I have done everything right and even tried doing it wrong on purpose. I'm lost!!! lol

Once again I really appreciate all the advice and help you guys have given me. This has been a real headache for me. I kind of like my KVH stuff. It never gives me problems. Plus I can run 30 knots in 4 foot seas and still watch TV on the Furuno monitor at the helm :)

EDIT: Do you really think the A/B switch will not allow that signal to get through? I would assume that it would.

[veryoldschool]

Do you really think the A/B switch will not allow that signal to get through? I would assume that it would.
Got a link for the A/B switch?
Each receiver would only be $5/month.

Back to SWM:
What are you using in your "simplest" setup?
I've used a receiver to align my SWM Slimline several times.
I mount the dish, run one coax to the PI and then to the receiver with a monitor.
The single wire system needs [during receiver boot up] to establish communication [the 2.3 MHz signal] between the SWM & the receiver [power up SWM, then receiver] . This will be done even with the dish out of alignment. Then I go into the setup screen and start with 101 and view signal meter.
Here's a bit more on SWM: http://forums.directv.com/pe/RepositoryFileDownloadServlet/10396641/SWM%20-%20Integrated%20LNB-ModuleTraining.pdf

[Dumb, but needs to be asked] you're not using the BBCs, right?

[Mustake]

Yes I have hooked up the receiver just as you are saying and I get the exact same thing.

And no BBC's

[veryoldschool]

Yes I have hooked up the receiver just as you are saying and I get the exact same thing.

And no BBC's
I'm left wondering if the receiver is even in the SWM mode.
If you go into the setup screen for the SATs/transponders, do you have/see the screen for SWM?