Why can't E* just fix their PVR bugs? [Archive]

pjm877

05-22-03, 06:27 AM

Gang,

I do not know how many lines of code there are in the current project 721, but knowing what the bug is and then finding the cause can be very hard.  Sure you may find the solution quickly.  But, in testing you find you broke more than you fixed. And then there is the fix works for the 721 but breaks the 921, 522,... ect, and you want to keep a common code line.

Soap box  mode on:

And think about this.  What if the problem is not software but logic in one of the chips.  Working around this might be very hard if can be done at all.  Sure you want it fixed, and yes we demand a correction.  But, the simple fact is that if it is at the chip level there may not be any way to fix the problem other than have an updated/fixed chip made and then that chip replaced.  This would cost lots more than the unit cost E*.  It would be more cost efficient to keep this under their hat and release the fix in say a 722 model.  Or, maybe through an upgrade program. Like you send in your unit with a upgrade payment and they remove your old HDA and put it into the newer unit, and send it back.  By moving the HDA the cost is kept lower.  You see the old way was to have all the LSI chips in sockets (remeber the 80's), but to cut cost they are now surface mounted and that makes replaceing the chip harder.  Just think if your Intel/AMD processer was done this way. You would not be able to replace the chip on your own... well unless you have a hot air station to heat the board.

I can feel for the code debuggers.  Look at MS Windows (no I do not work for MS or E*).. how may lines of code do you think is in that program.  My best guess would be around 20+ mil that is the OS and not IE, Outlook, ect... It can be a very time intensive thankless job debugging the problem. If one can even start the recreation of the problem in the first place.

Think of this like a problem with your car: can't show the technician.. well we all have been down that road.  If you can not provide detailed steps to recreate the problem, and if the code debugger with these steps can't recreate the problem they might not be able find the problem area and fix it.  And, if they think they have a fix test it.

So the bottom line is that this is very complex code built on and around Linux that in its self has issues that contuine to be worked out. Then there is the whole hardware issues...

There will always be bugs... Designed by humans, built by humans.. and frankly humans make errors, over look things.

I am just amazed what can be done with what we have now... How long has the VCR been out?? And, now we have tapeless recording...

better "git" back to work...
OK,  Stepping down off the box for now. 

back to lurking mode

  Ya'll have a nice day and holiday..

 

Bob Haller

05-22-03, 06:46 AM

WELL, COMPLETE TESTING BEFORE RELEASE would be a good start. Caps for emphasis....

Seemingly one bug fix creates 2 new ones in a endless cycle. Yet D TIVO has very little of this...????

Mark Lamutt

05-22-03, 06:49 AM

And yet people complain endlessly that the 921 isn't out yet... :rolleyes:

Can't have it both ways, folks...

Scott Greczkowski

05-22-03, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Bob Haller
WELL, COMPLETE TESTING BEFORE RELEASE would be a good start. Caps for emphasis....
I can say that the testing for L1.12 is some of the most complete testing I have ever done for any beta I have been involved with. As I have said in the past the recent L1.11 upgrade was a maintance release and did not contain the fixes we have been testing. [B]Yet D TIVO has very little of this...????

You OBVIOUSLY don't read the Tivo Community.

Randy_B

05-22-03, 08:07 AM

Maybe you know Scott, does E* PVR teams conduct peer reviews for their code?

Big Bob

05-22-03, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Bob Haller

Seemingly one bug fix creates 2 new ones in a endless cycle. 

Please post the problems. I have asked for a list of the new problems that L1.11 has created in "L1.11 sucks". There were 2 posts.

2

I read a lot of complaining in this forum about new bugs, yet no one can seem to quantify them.

I have had a 721 for just under a year now. I have lived through all (I think) of the upgrades. Every one has made the the product better. Every one.

There have been some new bugs introduced by some of the updates, but there have been far, far more bugs removed and features added.

I think that most of the complaining has it's roots in the dishplayers. I feel for those of you who lived through it, but jeez, what did you expect? The thing relied on WebTV. Of course it was riddled with major problems.

The current line of PVRs are nowhere near as bad as that.

The vast majority of Dish PVR owners do not read this forum. The vast majority of Dish PVR owners are satified with their products. They either don't noticed the few bugs or don't care and/or (more likely) realize that computers have problems every once in a while and accept that if they doesn't happen too often.

I think the truth is that some people like to complain just to complain.

Scott Greczkowski

05-22-03, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Big Bob
I think the truth is that some people like to complain just to complain. Bob you just said a MOUTHFULL! :D

Big Bob

05-22-03, 08:45 AM

Scott,
sorry, in a cranky mood today.
Dealing with Nav4 DHTML :(

ghaynes

05-22-03, 09:14 AM

Big bob,

Is Nav4 that hard to use menu navigation bar. If so you might want to check out Quick Menu Pro at http://www.opencube.com/index.html.

It is so easy to use and the best part is that its free. It's also written in DHTML.

DaYooper

05-22-03, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Mark Lamutt
And yet people complain endlessly that the 921 isn't out yet... :rolleyes:

Can't have it both ways, folks...

Do you really think it will make a difference? I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't matter if the 921 came out next month or next year. Given E* track record, it's going to be full of bugs for at least the first couple of years.

Jason

05-22-03, 10:06 AM

DaYooper,

I totally agree with you! E* will not know about any 921 bugs until actual consumers buy the product and start using it. Their engineers and employees can sit in a room all day and record the one or two shows that they watch and will not run into any bugs. But when the powerusers get ahold of it, there will be bugs aplenty...so much that E* should consider getting a product placement for their PVRs into the sequel to 'A Bug's Life'! LOL

If they could really get rid of all the bugs by delaying the product then I would be in favor of the delay. But facts are fact and there is no way that is going to happen so they might as well release it now so that we (the true beta testers) can actually start the bug reporting process. I would also like to be able to purchase the unit now before it is outdated and needs all sorts of upgrades just to be able to watch a new HDTV channel they may add somewhere down the line.

Ace

05-22-03, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Jason
DaYooper,

I totally agree with you! E* will not know about any 921 bugs until actual consumers buy the product and start using it. Their engineers and employees can sit in a room all day and record the one or two shows that they watch and will not run into any bugs. But when the powerusers get ahold of it, there will be bugs aplenty...so much that E* should consider getting a product placement for their PVRs into the sequel to 'A Bug's Life'! LOL

If they could really get rid of all the bugs by delaying the product then I would be in favor of the delay. But facts are fact and there is no way that is going to happen so they might as well release it now so that we (the true beta testers) can actually start the bug reporting process. I would also like to be able to purchase the unit now before it is outdated and needs all sorts of upgrades just to be able to watch a new HDTV channel they may add somewhere down the line.

Jason, you have some good points there.

Scott Greczkowski

05-22-03, 10:25 AM

Do you guys just think that only the engineers and employees test these things?

Your guys have wild imaginations. :)

They do have beta testers who do not work for Echostar testing these units. You guys just do not know they are testing because the testers can not talk about their testing as they are bound by Non Disclosure Agreements.

Infact besides myself I know a few DBSTalk members who beta test various equipment for Dish but again can't talk about it publicly or for that matter privately. (And I know some of these folks are indeed power users.) :D

Ken_F

05-22-03, 10:52 AM

Dish Network uses the same basic hardware as the Tivo.

As to the question, I have another one. Why can't Microsoft, the largest software company in the world, fix their bugs?

Mark Holtz

05-22-03, 11:17 AM

On Fidonet a few years ago, someone wrote the following:

"While there are only a finite number of ways to use a program correctly, there are an INFINITE number of ways to screw up. Obviously then, no finite number of beta testers can test all possible ways to screw up!" - Bruce Powell, 9/19/92

And, that was in relation with Blue Wave, a offline forum reading software.

Scott Greczkowski

05-22-03, 11:22 AM

Damn, I use to use BlueWave on my Bulletin Board many moons ago!

I ran a 8 line RemoteAccess System. (Origionally started as a WWIV system which also had the BlueWave offline reader feature) I was also part of FidoNet if I remember correctly my node number was 1:142/168 :D Ahh memories

Randy_B

05-22-03, 12:01 PM

Please post the problems. I have asked for a list of the new problems that L1.11 has created in "L1.11 sucks". There were 2 posts
Bob, just because folks haven't restated some issues already raised in your thread doesn't mean they don't exist. Just off the top of my head I know there is the pixelation bug, 2 timer simultaneous fire while watching a recording LOCK UP/REBOOT bug, and the no screensaver "no worky" no more bugs.

The 2 timer REBOOT bug is far from benign. That one wiped our HD when it forced a new image afterwards. Dish is not new to PVR technology now. They have been at this for 5+ years, their track record should be much better. I am certainly not a Tivo'ista, but those folks have made quantam leaps in their reliability from Tivo 1.0 to today. E* is not even close to that kinda reliability. After 5 yrs the DP still has bugs that have haunted that unit for the entire life cycle.

I like my E* PVRs, but I don't trust them. Shows that we really want to see, get recorded on both the 501 and the 721 and we watch it within 24 hrs. For the 24 season finale, I had the old VCR in the bedroom going as well. Kinda pathetic to distrust the equipment that deeply.

Oh, I almost forgot the "big grey box" bug. This one appears on occassion when you bail out of watching a PVR event and jumping to live. A Huge grey box appears in the middle of the screen but you can see the live program going on around the edges between the box and the edge of the TV screen and you hear the audio.

These have been raised with E* advance tech support and discussed here in other threads, so they are not single incidents.

DarrellP

05-22-03, 12:13 PM

I think the truth is that some people like to complain just to complain.
Obviously you don't have to put up with the crap I have with my 501. I agree they have fixed a lot of bugs, but there are still many floating around in this machine and appear to be random and can't be duplicated right off the bat (except for #2 & 3 below).

My biggests complaints with the 501 right now are:

1) Getting kicked back to Live while trying to set a timer and

2) Exiting the PVR screen this machine always hangs for about 5 seconds like it's going to reboot. Most times it makes it but once in awhile I get either a black screen and it hangs or it reboots.

3) Browsing the Guide while Recording and trying to set Timers always makes my 501 reboot after I set about 4 timers.

4) If the machine is not reset regularly, going in and out of PVR/Timer screens will make it hang and reboot.

5) Hard drive noise. The 1st & 2nd ones rattled like a washing machine full of marbles, my 3rd one has a very high pitched whine that is audible over the TV volume. For this reason, I wear headphones plugged into my A/V system at night when I have to lower the volume.

After 2 years on the market, this is not acceptable behaviour. This is my 3rd machine and they have all done it. I've had a 501 for more than 1 1/2 years and have put up with these bugs knowing it was new and they were working on fixes, but my patience is wearing thin waiting for these fixes to materialize.

I hope the 921 delay is due to the fact that they want it to be right when it hits peoples doorsteps. I will not buy one until it is out and good reports start flowing in.

toddjb

05-22-03, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski

Infact besides myself I know a few DBSTalk members who beta test various equipment for Dish but again can't talk about it publicly or for that matter privately. (And I know some of these folks are indeed power users.) :D

So not that anyone in this group HAS used a 921, but IF they had what would you guess they'd say about it? ;)
Again...just hypothetically...

Mark Holtz

05-22-03, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
Damn, I use to use BlueWave on my Bulletin Board many moons ago!

I ran a 8 line RemoteAccess System. (Origionally started as a WWIV system which also had the BlueWave offline reader feature) I was also part of FidoNet if I remember correctly my node number was 1:142/168 :D Ahh memories

Hopping down memory lane.... my BBS was part of Fidonet for a while, with a node address of 1:203/1701 and the phone number being xxx-1701. One of only three BBSes in FidoNet with both a node # and phone # ending in 1701.

Raymond Simonian

05-22-03, 08:48 PM

Scott G. and Toddjb: Are you permitted to let us know if you are beta testing the 921 or if it is in this phase yet? Also can you tell us when manufacturing will begin? I think I heard that there will be a demonstration of it on the tech chat on July 14 and that it may be available in August or September. I would sure like to know when manufacturing starts. Something definitive would help.

Jacob S

05-22-03, 09:09 PM

I would have to agree, none of these bugs should be acceptable after being out for two years. What bugs me even more is the hardware issues instead of the software. The Dishplayers had software issues, these newer pvr's have hardware issues, so now if we can just get a combination of both and I Dont mean having both software and hardware issues but having neither.

Also I dont think customers should have to pay for an upgrade if a new one came out like a 722 that the customers could go to with some rebate or credit for your old receiver program, not unless it was a pretty decent improvement from the old one, and even then one should be given a choice of having a similar model receiver at no charge if these things have this many hardware issues. Either this or they can get it right on exchange.

Ron Barry

05-22-03, 11:50 PM

These types of questions always great a flame war. Being a software Engineer, I thought I would pipe in. I am also a 508 user. Have two that i have had for about 4 months.

First off....

1) Software is never bug free.. Any piece of software that you buy has bugs. Some are better than others but they all have bugs..

2) E* does seem to have a quality issue with there software that is not at an acceptable level. My gut feeling is that it is not as robust as it should be.

Example: I had a problem where I my 4900s started locking up. I called support, got to advance support, and was told it was my installation. An installation I have had for 4 years. Well after discussing the issue with the person I could not convience him that a box locking up as a result of something in the signal was not acceptable, I gave up.

I worked for a company that made embedded hardware that is used on the internet backbone. We were fixing edge conditions and unusual issues all the time. Fixing embedded software bugs is one of the hardest things to do.

3) If you buy V1.0 of anything, be prepared to have some headaches.. The developers can only design and think about so many cases. Some companies do better at this. It is cost prohibitive to get the box to the level of necular type software.

4) Reason MS has not fixed their bugs is because their business model is based on selling boxes. They are on to the next OS release and do not concentrate on stablizing the old releases. If they did this, people would not buy the new stuff.

Example: Window 2000 = 2 service packs OS/2 4 = 10+ (last I looked) They dont have a sustaining model designed to stabalize code.

So I can fully appreciate the pain of dealing with software issues. I have been there myself. I also understand the other side of the equation. As for the 921, if you think it will come out bug free or rock solid both E* track record and software gods are against you... The argument to release now since you are going to have bugs anyway is weak. If they could release it know, they would. It is not ready and if they think it is not ready, imagine the state it is currently in given the track record of what E* considers ready.

Conclusion:
Software always has bugs.
E* needs a QA revamp to catch problem early.
My guess on the 921 is sometime late Nov or Early December.

Cheers.

Jacob S

05-23-03, 12:00 AM

And I would expect it to have bugs as well.

Big Bob

05-23-03, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by WeeJavaDude
Conclusion:
Software always has bugs.
E* needs a QA revamp to catch problem early.
My guess on the 921 is sometime late Nov or Early December.

Cheers.

I think that E* is about average with their testing. Which is another way to say that it could be improved somewhat but is not terrible either.

Example, the lack of  a screen saver on L1.11 for the 721 should never have gotten through. This speaks to a systemic problem in their testing cycle.

A bit off topic. I worked for awhile at a dev house that had 1 tester for every 2 developers. The software that we turned out was great! Feature rich and solid as a rock. A real dream job. They ran out of money and got bought out by a larger company for pennies on the dollar. Might be a lesson there.

Scott Greczkowski

05-23-03, 07:59 AM

Bob I have been told by Echostar the Screen Saver was not removed and that no changes have been made to the screen saver, they are investigating why its no longer not working (It's also not working on the beta software versions)

It almost seems like the screens aver died at the same time for everyone no matter what software version you are running.

(btw the screen saver is one of the GPL'ed software pieces which were not written by Echostar, see http://208.45.37.181/ for the source code for the screen saver)

Randy_B

05-23-03, 08:22 AM

E* does seem to have a quality issue weejavadude has it almots right. It is a huge quality issue. I do not believe that E* has any real, formal quality control process (i.e. ISO 9xxx or SEI CMM level x). If they did, at least 70% of the problems we see wouldn't make it into the market. (we are CMM level 4 ,working on CMMI, so I know what QA is required and it is solid).

I have been told by Echostar the Screen Saver was not removed and that no changes have been made to the screen saver

That is the root and a HUGE part of E*'s problem. They have their heads so far up their @** and are so far in denial of EVERY freakin problem. It is always the same line of reasoning for them, thousands and thousands of users are lying and/or are idiots. I am also convinced that is why E* always refuses to officially comment on what upgrades are supposed to fix. It is because even THEY have no confidence that it will do what it was "designed" to do. E* NEVER acknowledged that the DP had a single problem. :rotfl:

If someone can show me ONE single press release or company statement that addresses a software upgrade (not new features or the the new feature vidieo clips but bug fixes) or acknowledges a problem I will eat it and then I will be quiet (maybe, . . . .nah!).

Jason

05-23-03, 08:35 AM

Randy_B,

Very well said. I have thought about calling tech support when I had problems with my unit. But as you said, they always act like you are crazy and are the only person in the entire world that is having the problem when that is a flat out lie. Most of the time, they simply don't have a clue how to fix the problem so they just lie and say that it is very isolated or they say that your installation is bad when 99.9% that is not the case.

mattyro

05-23-03, 09:08 AM

Wow! - If I had read all this I may have kept my Dishplayer.As it is I have had a 508 for about 3 weeks now. It has locked up once. I have not experienced any other problems.However I baby the unit-I dont jump from menu to play--I will always back out using 0 or cancel. Owning a Dp has trained me to be gentle or bad things can happen. When I chose a show in the prog guide to record the 'create' box is on the screen for a millisecond before the timer page comes up. When i see things like this i take it as a warning not to push the unit. kind of like seeing a the temp gauge in the car going in the red-be gentle!!

Ron Barry

05-23-03, 09:44 AM

Couple of additiona points.

1) ISO9000 does not insure software quality. All IS09000 does is insure you have a process and it is documented. In my experience, it usually does not lead to software quailty. Maybe hardware quality, but for sure not software. I have worked in a number of ISO9000 and I saw it more of creating paper for the sake of paper than solving software quality issues.

2) My guess on commenting on what releases fix is based on the fact that they see there system as a closed system. it is not like running software on your PC. My guess is they see it as their responsibility and the consumer really does not monitor software upgrades and really does not care. Just want it to work..

As for having a clue how to fix it, Like I said My guess is that a lot of these problems are edge conditions and are not easily reproducable in a lab. Not given excuses just opinions based on experience. From our perspective, we see the problem and it is obvious, but from theirs they only have a few cases and cannot reproduce in the lab.

Suggestion, whenever dealing with a problem. Be sure to include everythign you can about it.. Not just the symptom.. Try to find an easy way to reproduce it on multiple boxes if possible. Give a clear idea of the installation and possible when you started to see it. Workarounds you found. Everything you could imagine. Sometimes the slighest comment will be the clue to the issue. I know that it is fruestrating when software quality is obviously not there. As a consumer, you have three choices: switch to another provider, try to help if possible, get angry and do nothing.

I usually try the second one, but with E* I have to admit it does not help all the time.

Cheers

P.S. Never do this type of help with level 1 tech. Work your way up to advanced support and do it there... Level 1 is clueless. And this is not a E* only fact.

Randy_B

05-23-03, 12:41 PM

ISO9000 does not insure software quality. All IS09000 does is insure you have a process and it is documented. In my experience, it usually does not lead to software quailty. Maybe hardware quality, but for sure not software. I have worked in a number of ISO9000 and I saw it more of creating paper for the sake of paper than solving software quality issues.

None of these (ISO, CMM) can gaurantee QA, they are only processes, albeit repeateble and quatifiable processes. Actual QA can only be done by people. ISO and CMM demonstrate a committment by the company and its management to perform at a specified level. Both ISO and CMM are more garauntees to the customer that your company will do what it takes. They are certainly not a warranty bu any stretch of the imagination.

My guess is they see it as their responsibility and the consumer really does not monitor software upgrades
It is not so much that they don't publish what is in the fix, as much as it is the E* has NEVER acknowledged ANY bug in ANY system. At least MS, Intel, Novell, and others etc... (PROFESSIONAL companies) put out alerts and warnings and notes about flaws, bugs, other issues that have been found. Allows their consumers to know it exists and that the comapny is aware of it and working the issue. E* has NEVER done this. They won't allow calls on bugs to get through on chats and they have no knowledge base (at least publically available) that the consumer can look at to maybe find a work around for an issue. The E* methodology is to deny it, accuse the consumer of stupidity or lie and hope and pray that one the internet sites like DBSTalk or DBSForums will handle it for them.

There is aboslutely NO reason that E* couldn't at the very least formulate a company approved statement and publish it on one of the sites. A few E* engineers or WebTV programmers have stepped up and tried to help and get involved and they have been punished for it.

Whispering in Scott's ear or pasing info to Bill is nice and I think we all appreciate the effort of those folks, but it ain't the comapny stepping up to plate in a professional manner. It is always about maintaining complete deniability and distance.

OK Mr. Dugan, Mr. Jackson, Ms Cartwright, here is your chance. Step up and prove me wrong. They can't.

DarrellP

05-23-03, 12:47 PM

Sure all software has bugs, but how often do I reboot my A/V receiver? My VCR's? My TV? My DVD Player? My Pronto remote control? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

My DISH 501? At least twice a week.
My DISH 6000? At least once a week.

Some software is just tested better than others.

Randy_B

05-23-03, 12:52 PM

Anyone else out there remember a few years back when John Hodges was invited to sit in on a chat live and he raised a question about the DP? You could feel the chill flow out of the TV from the E* boys. That is how open E* is to talking about problems.

John is still my hero for that great TV moment!!! Talk about priceless.

ericha

05-23-03, 01:03 PM

From WeeJavaDude

__________________________________________________ ______________________

3) If you buy V1.0 of anything, be prepared to have some headaches.. The developers can only design and think about so many cases. Some companies do better at this. It is cost prohibitive to get the box to the level of necular type software.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Okay, what is "necular type software"?

RJS1111111

05-23-03, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by ericha
From WeeJavaDude

__________________________________________________ ______________________

3) If you buy V1.0 of anything, be prepared to have some headaches.. The developers can only design and think about so many cases. Some companies do better at this. It is cost prohibitive to get the box to the level of necular type software.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Okay, what is "necular type software"?

My guess would be "nuclear reactor control software";
it's-gotta-work-or-people-will-die quality control.

Mark Holtz

05-23-03, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by DarrellP
Sure all software has bugs, but how often do I reboot my A/V receiver? My VCR's? My TV? My DVD Player? My Pronto remote control?

My Toshiba 3108 DVD player which I obtained in February, 1999 had to go through two firmware updates because of problems with DVDs. The first involved DVDs with DVD-ROM contents, while the second dealt with subtitles problems that occurred with The World Is Not Enough.

Now, before you go off on me for the player not supporting the standards, I would like to remind you that some of the more elaborate stuff on DVD only existed on paper, and it was only later on that the DVD producers tried out the more elaborate stuff. Even a few first generation DVD players had problems with dual-layer disks.... there weren't any until late 1997.

Ron Barry

05-23-03, 07:50 PM

YEs that is what I meant RJS. Nuclear... Was typing and running out the door... Sorry for the confusion.

I will leave the merits of ISO9000 to other forums..

As for the VCR, Pronto, etc. I would say that these types of systems are a bit simplier and they do have there problems.. ever heard of the Chroma bug.. Also my Pronto TSU3000 reboots when batteres hit around 25% life left.

Not trying to defend E* just trying to give a perspective from the other side......

Randy_B

05-23-03, 08:00 PM

But have the companies you are talking about acknowledged the equipment has problems? Z'loth, sounds like Toshiba did. weejavadude, is Pronto denying the unit has a flaw?

I think E*'s problem is that their vision now officially exceeds there capability to handle it all in house. They have clearly proven they cannot handle the HW/SW side of the service. They are a distributor and they need to get back in that business. In the old days when they had subscribers in the 200-500K and were making simpler receivers like the 2000 and 3200, they could do it. Now they have millions of subscribers and sophisticated equipment that exceeds their talent. They need to partner more tightly with professional equipment makers (JVC and Toshiba would be good, Sony and Thomson are not available, wouldn't be nice they connected with D&M now that they own replay).

toad57

05-23-03, 09:02 PM

I think that most of the complaining has it's roots in the dishplayers. I feel for those of you who lived through it, but jeez, what did you expect? The thing relied on WebTV. Of course it was riddled with major problems.

I've been an unpaid beta tester for Microsoft for years, I don't expect to have to perform that role with Dishnetwork gear either.

It was not evident to me, as I purchased my DP 7200 from a dealer, that it was 'riddled with major problems'. In fact, it was/is my expectation as a consumer to purchase products that work and work well.

When products are turkeys, I expect the manufacturer to admit it and attempt to make good thier lousy product either by making it work or replacing it for free (or low cost) an acceptable replacement. Based on my experience with the DP 7200, I've never seen Echostar do either.

---

A few weeks ago I had a problem with the DP7200 getting any form of a guide... 'no info' showed up on all channels. On the 3rd attempt to force a guide reload via a 'special code', the box appearantly became confused and did a total reset and wiped the entire contents of the hard drive- I suddenly found myself answering 'new install' questions!! :mad: :mad:

My expectation is that the box, if sufficiently confused, should at least give the user an on-screen option of trying to preserve its stored programs, even if those programs have no description, and just a filename... at least I could play them onto VHS tape.

Would we accept a PC OS that wiped all data files when it became confused? No way, but as an Echostar customer it's just tough s#!t I guess.

If the DSS system designers/manufacturers seem to be able to get it right then why can't Echostar?

toad57

05-23-03, 09:26 PM

You got it right Randy_B... DENIAL sums it up.

Jacob S

05-23-03, 09:28 PM

Your right, why cant Dish get it right when Direct manufacturers can get it right the first time. Dish should not even have to fix it later but have it right in the first place, and they still cant get it right later. They have made satellite receivers for over 20 years now, whats the deal?

Ron Barry

05-24-03, 12:25 AM

Randy & toad,

First off Pronto has not commented on the defect. No mention of it on their website, though it is a known issue. I also had a Pioneer receiver that had a bug in their DSP. They were aware of it but no mention of it on their web site. E* is not alone with bad tech support. It is rampart all over the industry and not just in areas of electronics..

As for DirecTV receiver Manufacturs.. I had a friend that had a Sony PVR that kept crashing and she had to reboot it ever week to clear a memory leak. I am not aware that Sony was posting an alert for this issue.

I agree with you that E* has some quality issues, but I would have to disagree with statements like direct manufacturers get it right the first time. I am sure some units are solid and some are not solid and there are a percentage of people that run into problems (bugs) on all receivers.

I have a 508 and so far I have not ran into any major problems(Consider me lucky). There are design UI issues with the 508, but for me it has been stable. On the other hand, I had a bug that I swear was introduced in a software Rev for my 4900 that caused the boxes to lock up. I did the thing of calling and getting the denial so I know exactly what you are talking about. The point I am making is that this is not some uncommon action from companies. E* is not alone here (No it does not make it ok)

Oh.. and on the point of OSs that wipe drive information. WIndows has been known to corrupt a hard drive on more than one occassion. Windows also issues a security patch a week, but people still use it.

Couple of other points... (I can see the flames)

1) I was thinking about how one would test a UI that is based off a remote for timing related issues. It is not an easy thing to do and it would be intersting to know how companies acheive this...

2) There is nothing stoping the E* community to start a customer reported web site and have people vote on bugs. I would guarentee that over time E* would start watching it and perhaps would actually start looking at it. This is what JavaSoft does with Java.

Oh.. And for reference, I worked for one company that did a great job at bug tracking information for a customer and one that did not. I have worked for a major networking company, process control company, document workflo managment, and tape backup company.

So to answer your question? "Why cant E* fix their bugs?". I don't think none of us can really answer that because we do not work there. I can answer why the companies I work for have problems fixing their bugs, but unless you are there and in the process all we can do is speculate and sling mud. Statements like "Clueless" and "incompotent" etc.. well maybe so, but since I am not prevy to the internals of e* I am not qualified to answer that or make that judgement. From my perspective they have issues, but I am not sure if they are worse than the next guy. Grass is always greenier on the other side. ;)

As for my 508 and 6000.

THey both are currently very stable. I would love to get into my 4900 stability issue but I will save that for another day. My feeling about the E* equipment is that their will always be a percentage of people having problems and that is the same with direct receivers, Tivo's, Prontos, DVD players, VCRs, Receivers etc....

Hope E* is reading this.. They would do good to provide a mechansim for customers to search for reported bugs and vote on them. It would help both sides of the equation.

Well hope you all have a good night and that is my last 2cents... This is a topic that could go on for days without an answer..

Cheers and night!