HR2x power consumption

[redwings_fan]

I apologize if this has been brought up before, I did a quick search and didn't see anything. We have 3 HR2x DVRs in the house and I've noticed a couple things. They consume the same amount of power regardless of what they are doing. Is there any way (or plans to add) some sort of sleep mode when they aren't doing anything? I understand it has to be ready to record, etc. but it seems to me that at least the hard drive could be put to sleep and turned back on when needed, etc. They consume 0.9-1 amp to just sit there. My 60" HDTV consumes just over that when its on and it seems excessive.

[davring]

They consume only 39 watts off and 45 watts on, far less than 1/2 amp.

[spartanstew]

It's always buffering, so it's always on.

If you don't care about the buffer or potential missed recordings, you can pull the plug when not in use.

[dcowboy7]

They consume only 39 watts off and 45 watts on, far less than 1/2 amp.

nope....basically directv is annoyed with the whole "going green" thing:

6 watts x 24 hours x 52 weeks = 7,488 watts per year.

7,488 x 17,000,000 customers = 127,296,000,000 watts per year.

[Jhon69]

I apologize if this has been brought up before, I did a quick search and didn't see anything. We have 3 HR2x DVRs in the house and I've noticed a couple things. They consume the same amount of power regardless of what they are doing. Is there any way (or plans to add) some sort of sleep mode when they aren't doing anything? I understand it has to be ready to record, etc. but it seems to me that at least the hard drive could be put to sleep and turned back on when needed, etc. They consume 0.9-1 amp to just sit there. My 60" HDTV consumes just over that when its on and it seems excessive.


DirecTV has Energy Star HDDVRs.;)

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/prod_lists/set_top_boxes_prod_list.pdf

[davring]

nope....basically directv is annoyed with the whole "going green" thing:

6 watts x 24 hours x 52 weeks = 7,488 watts per year.

7,488 x 17,000,000 customers = 127,296,000,000 watts per year.

Your math is correct showing the difference between off(standby) and on. In standby at 39 watts is less than 10 cents a day assuming $0.10 per kilowatt hour, our base rate down here. Not green but not too bad.

[TomCat]

Your math is correct showing the difference between off(standby) and on. In standby at 39 watts is less than 10 cents a day assuming $0.10 per kilowatt hour, our base rate down here. Not green but not too bad.This is not much worse than the Replay of a decade ago, which could have its HDD spinned down (if you knew the trick). It consumed 25 watts on, and 21 watts off. Of course it had a tiny HDD and recorded SD to one path only. Modern DVRs have a lot more going on inside them.

This also presumes that all power consumed NOT in the name of recording or playback is power down the drain, which is not necessarily the case. That power creates heat. If it is winter time, then that heat is heat your furnace does not have to crank up for and generate. Of course that is a small consolation to those of us who live in the desert (I am in the course of changing all of my home lighting to LED lighting), but on balance, probably half of that power is not wasted at all.

[davring]

Of course that is a small consolation to those of us who live in the desert (I am in the course of changing all of my home lighting to LED lighting), but on balance, probably half of that power is not wasted at all.

Our house has all been fluorescent for many years now, need to start making the move to LED. I haven't really checked into the differences yet, but with the heat down here as well, every BTU I can remove from the load on the A/C is worth considering.

[Thaedron]

It's always buffering, so it's always on.

If you don't care about the buffer or potential missed recordings, you can pull the plug when not in use.

And that might be an option if it didn't take so bleeping long to startup.

[spartanstew]

And that might be an option if it didn't take so bleeping long to startup.

Seems like a small price to pay, to save the planet.

[armophob]

sigh, I never understand the fascination of dwelling on such a small convenience device. When you give up hot air dried clothing and hot water showers in your homes........grrrr
Nevermind.:)
Just remember, we will never kill the planet. We may rid it of ourselves and all life on it for now. But the planet will survive just fine and will find new occupants that may enjoy it again.

[Tom Robertson]

They consume only 39 watts off and 45 watts on, far less than 1/2 amp.

Where did you get these numbers? They are higher than any I've measured (34-35W) and the difference between "off" and "on" is far greater than any time I've measured.

One of my posts of tests: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1060213#post1060213

Cheers,
Tom

[djrobx]

Your math is correct showing the difference between off(standby) and on. In standby at 39 watts is less than 10 cents a day assuming $0.10 per kilowatt hour, our base rate down here. Not green but not too bad.We have a base rate but ours is consumed by ... well, the basics, like the refrigerator. So we pay full price for our DVR power. Here that's about .2 per kWh in the non-summer months. We have two DVRs at 40w each. That's 57,600 watt hours per 30 days (57.6kWh), or $11.52 per month. It's significantly higher during the summer months too when even scaled back AC usage will push us into the "400% over baseline" mark. And that's also not counting additional heat produced that the AC will have to work harder to remove.

So, I'm paying hundreds per year to power DVRs that really only need to be on for a few hours per day. Yes, I could put them on timers to cut out some obvious hours, but that can't be good for the electronics. Technology these days is smart enough to handle this sort of thing. AT&T's U-verse DVRs power down the hard drive when not in use. Of course, it should be optional for people who really want the live buffer available when they power up. It took us a while to get used to not having that with AT&T.

[armophob]

So, I'm paying hundreds per year to power DVRs that really only need to be on for a few hours per day.

That is just an unfounded accusation and I completely dispute the math. I will not even dignify the logic with research. The device will cause 10's of dollars per consumer each year. And any other claim is just silly. Get real:nono:

[davring]

Where did you get these numbers? They are higher than any I've measured (34-35W) and the difference between "off" and "on" is far greater than any time I've measured.

One of my posts of tests: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1060213#post1060213

Cheers,
Tom

I took those measuements with my Fluke VOM a couple of years ago on my first HR20, I presumed the readings to be accurate. I will have to check my meter today with a known load, I'll post my findings.

[Mike Bertelson]

Some members have used a Kill A Watt to measure power usage.

Here's a quick search. You may want to refine it a bit.

http://www.dbstalk.com/search.php?searchid=4490303

Mike

[veryoldschool]

We have two DVRs at 40w each. That's 57,600 watt hours per 30 days (57.6kWh).
2 [DVRs] x 40 [watts] x 24 [hours] x 30 [days] = 57.6 kwatt/hours

There have been several "measurements" of wattage that seem to vary from 30 watts to ~ 40 watts.
What I don't know is whether the LNBs are or aren't part of this.
What does the DVR draw without a SAT connection?
Is there a powered multi-switch?
Is there a SWM?
For any of these measurements to be meaningful, one needs to know the test setup to realize what is being measured. :)

[dcowboy7]

The device will cause 10's of dollars per consumer each year.

$10 a year is alot....what if u & every member here sent me $10 bucks a year....its only $10....will u do it ?

[apexmi]

Some members have used a Kill A Watt to measure power usage.

Here's a quick search. You may want to refine it a bit.

http://www.dbstalk.com/search.php?searchid=4490303

Mike

Mine measured with a kill a watt, is between 25 off 27/28 on

[BattleZone]

The point is: television is a LUXURY. And HDTV with multiple dual-tuner HD-DVRs is even more of a luxury. Luxuries cost money, and not everyone can afford them (hence the name). If you can afford them, good for you. If you can't, so sorry.

DirecTV's HD-DVRs have a LOT to do, including powering the switches and LNBs. They must constantly receive guide updates in order to ensure that any last-minute programming changes are accounted for, and they may be set to record at any hour of the day. They also have to process a massive amount of data when decoding HD, or even SD signals. But even with all that, they have been awarded Energy Star certifications, because great effort was made to minimize the amount of electricity they use.

So, bottom line: there's little point in complaining about a relatively minor cost like power usage for an HD-DVR. It's akin to complaining about the high cost of diesel for your yacht, or tires for your Ferarri. You gotta pay to play.

[mcbeevee]

It's always buffering, so it's always on.

If the XM music channels do not buffer, does that mean you would use less power (and have less wear on the drive) by switching to a XM channel before powering off? Of course, this would only apply until the next recording starts.

:)

[cartrivision]

They consume only 39 watts off and 45 watts on, far less than 1/2 amp.

From actual measurements I have taken, there is nowhere near a 6 watt difference between standby and on modes. As I recall, it was about a 1 watt difference, if that. Very little is turned off in standby mode, just a few LEDs and the video outputs.

[cartrivision]

If the XM music channels do not buffer, does that mean you would use less power (and have less wear on the drive) by switching to a XM channel before powering off? Of course, this would only apply until the next recording starts.

:)

No, because the disk is always powered up and spinning. Furthermore, switching to an XM channel is no guarantee that the second tuner is not still being buffered. As has been discussed in various DLB threads, the HR2x DVRs are often maintaining a live buffer of both tuners (or just the background tuner if the foreground is tuned to an XM channel) even there is no "DLB capability" that lets you switch between both live buffers.

[dreadlk]

Who the hell gives a crap if the DVR uses $10 or $20 a year!!
Im paying $1200 a year on subscription, that $10 is the least of my problems. If you wanna be super green go out and buy a $1500 solar panel system, that small system can run it for free and make you a model citizen without the rest of us having to hear about it.

[DarinC]

If it is winter time, then that heat is heat your furnace does not have to crank up for and generate. Of course that is a small consolation to those of us who live in the desert (I am in the course of changing all of my home lighting to LED lighting), but on balance, probably half of that power is not wasted at all.

Unless you live someplace where you have no summer air conditioning costs, it doesn't work out that way. In the heating season, heating your home with waste heat from the DVR would be heat at the equivalent efficiency of electric resistance heat, which is generally somewhat expensive. So if you spend $1 to operate the DVR, the heat it puts out is less than what that same $1 would give you with natural gas or an electric heat pump. So operating the DVR in the winter isn't "free" UNLESS you have electric resistance heat, or something even more costly (like wood heat fueled by duraflames from 7-11). And in the summer time, for every $1 you spend to power your DVR, you might have to spend an additional $0.30-0.50 in air conditioning costs to remove that heat. And at least around here, our electric rates are about twice as high in the summer as they are in the winter. So the extra load on the a/c is much more costly than any savings on the heat bill in the winter.

[rudeney]

So, I'm paying hundreds per year to power DVRs that really only need to be on for a few hours per day.
That is just an unfounded accusation and I completely dispute the math. I will not even dignify the logic with research. The device will cause 10's of dollars per consumer each year. And any other claim is just silly. Get real:nono:

Here's my math: Let's go with a nominal 35 watts consumption. Time 24 hours in a day is 840 watt-hours per day. Times 30 days in a month is 25,200 watt-hours per month, or 25.2kWh per month. At $0.10 per kWh, that's $2.52 per month to operate the DVR. I have five of them so that's over $12/month. It's not a lot, but it is a waste of money and energy. I do wish that at the very least these devices could be program to stop buffering and power down the hard drives when they are in standby and there are no recordings scheduled. Even if it cut the overall energy usage by only 25%, it would welcome.

[DarinC]

I do wish that at the very least these devices could be program to stop buffering and power down the hard drives when they are in standby and there are no recordings scheduled.

I think at the very least, they should at least be smart enough to power down the internal drive if an external is attached. :rolleyes:

[billsharpe]

Here's my math: Let's go with a nominal 35 watts consumption. Time 24 hours in a day is 840 watt-hours per day. Times 30 days in a month is 25,200 watt-hours per month, or 25.2kWh per month. At $0.10 per kWh, that's $2.52 per month to operate the DVR. I have five of them so that's over $12/month. It's not a lot, but it is a waste of money and energy. I do wish that at the very least these devices could be program to stop buffering and power down the hard drives when they are in standby and there are no recordings scheduled. Even if it cut the overall energy usage by only 25%, it would welcome.

If you got rid of four of those five DVR's you'd save roughly ten bucks a month in the electric bill plus $20 in monthly lease fees. Just a thought :sure:

[EricJRW]

Seems like a small price to pay, to save the planet.It's not the planet that needs saving, it's the animals on the planet (including us homo sapiens)... Once we are gone, the planet will take care of itself... May take a few million years, but it will right itself.

OK, that being said, it does seem reasonable that there could be a user-selectable mode to conserve power.

Why can't we not buffer? I've had plenty of devices that know how to wake up a few minutes/seconds before a scheduled event.

I think the $10 / year (or pick your favorite number) times the number of DVRs always plugged in is a telling number. It's not really about the dollars, rather the energy being saved... Didn't we just go through the "kids unplugging power bricks" wave (though I got to say, if there is no load on the brick, is it really using that much power? But then again, multiplied by bricks in the wall <--- ode to Pink Floyd, it could be a lot).

Anyway, +1 for a green mode from me.

[rudeney]

If you got rid of four of those five DVR's you'd save roughly ten bucks a month in the electric bill plus $20 in monthly lease fees. Just a thought :sure:

But then I'd have four TV's without D*! :eek2:

[Tom Robertson]

But then I'd have four TV's without D*! :eek2:

Long cables doesn't trump electric usage? :)

I hear you, please don't take too much from my jocularity.

Some tricky bits to consider:
1) There are over 1,800 stations broadcasting in the US, with DIRECTV needing to carry all the guide data for all of them that are carried on DIRECTV in SD or HD or digital OTA. Many times that means carrying guide data multiple times for multiple sub-channels. At some point, it will be all stations.

So for the moment, lets say the total number of guide channels is 4,000 (2*1800, plus 400 nationals) for simplicity. And the guide goes out 14 days.

And each guide entry is fairly long xml by the time you get all the title, ratings (with detail), actors, directors, etc.

All that adds up and isn't easily stored entirely in memory. (Not all 14 days--plus the incoming data.)

So the disk has to spin to store and update databases--at least every so often. (Big key, that last bit...) :)

And at least one LNB needs to stay hot all the time.

Now, could DIRECTV find a way to spin the disk less than "all the time"? And turn off some of the LNBs and tuners?

Yes. I know they are smart enough to find a way to make it happen. It might be very difficult.

2) But I think they have a list of stability and features that they want much more first.

Once they have all that in place, they can focus on greening.

Now, another approach you can take, coming very soon, will be to replace some or more of your HR2x with H21/22/23 that don't have a disk. Let them be clients from the HR2x(s) that remain. That will reduce your electricity significantly and even let you turn off the receivers at will with an external power switch.

So, in a way, DIRECTV is also attacking the issue.

Cheers,
Tom

[BattleZone]

Again, what happens when one of the networks changes a show schedule a few hours before a show starts? Today, the DVR would get the updated guide data and adjust, as many people have actually seen happen. But if the DVR was powered down, it would miss those changes and you would lose recordings. Inevitably, customers wouldn't understand that they were making this compromise when they enabled "green mode" and would raise all kinds of hell with DirecTV for "including such a stupid feature!"

Anyway, as I pointed out before, a DVR is a luxury item, and has already been designed to reduce its power consumption to near its practical limit, which is around half the power needed to run an average (i.e., 75W) lightbulb.

Your time and energy, not to mention money, would almost certainly be better spent addressing the much larger users of energy in your home. Frige/freezer, A/C, heater, electric stove/oven, lights, and TVs all use far more power than your DVRs. If $2.50/month, or even $10/month is too much money to spend on the DVR, then you're probably living above your means in the first place.

[dennisj00]

Lots of good arguments and examples, but be sure that EVERY unneeded light bulb (driveway gas lights included!) in your house are OFF before you worry about the DVR using excess energy. ONE 60 watt light bulb uses almost twice the DVR.

IIP above is right, there are much bigger energy wasters in the average house. . . if your heat pump, central air or refrigerator / freezer is over 10 years old, you're wasting MUCH more energy.

[rudeney]

Long cables doesn't trump electric usage? :)

I hear you, please don't take too much from my jocularity.

Trust me, I have enough cabling in the house already! :)

Some tricky bits to consider:
1) There are over 1,800 stations broadcasting in the US, with DIRECTV needing to carry all the guide data for all of them that are carried on DIRECTV in SD or HD or digital OTA. Many times that means carrying guide data multiple times for multiple sub-channels. At some point, it will be all stations.

So for the moment, lets say the total number of guide channels is 4,000 (2*1800, plus 400 nationals) for simplicity. And the guide goes out 14 days.

And each guide entry is fairly long xml by the time you get all the title, ratings (with detail), actors, directors, etc.

All that adds up and isn't easily stored entirely in memory. (Not all 14 days--plus the incoming data.)

So the disk has to spin to store and update databases--at least every so often. (Big key, that last bit...) :)

Not that it helps with today's current IRD's, but a GB or two of flash memory would probably handle that.

And at least one LNB needs to stay hot all the time.

Yeah, but my PI can handle that.

Now, could DIRECTV find a way to spin the disk less than "all the time"? And turn off some of the LNBs and tuners?

Yes. I know they are smart enough to find a way to make it happen. It might be very difficult.

2) But I think they have a list of stability and features that they want much more first.

Once they have all that in place, they can focus on greening.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not a "green freak", and in fact I'm not really even concerned about the money, but it is wasteful and I hate to waste anything.

Now, another approach you can take, coming very soon, will be to replace some or more of your HR2x with H21/22/23 that don't have a disk. Let them be clients from the HR2x(s) that remain. That will reduce your electricity significantly and even let you turn off the receivers at will with an external power switch.

So, in a way, DIRECTV is also attacking the issue.


Yes, that does sound promising! :)

[rudeney]

Lots of good arguments and examples, but be sure that EVERY unneeded light bulb (driveway gas lights included!) in your house are OFF before you worry about the DVR using excess energy. ONE 60 watt light bulb uses almost twice the DVR.

OK, guilty as charged! I have a whole-house light control system and I have lights come on automatically, including several hundred watts of outdoor landscape lighting. I did replace my gas coach light with an electric conversion. It saved me about $30 per month on the gas bill!

[David MacLeod]

anyone remember the Dennis Leary song "I'm a A__hole?"
deals with lot of environmental issues

[dennisj00]

Great example! Even though it's pretty, I've never understood landscape lighting . . .

[rudeney]

Great example! Even though it's pretty, I've never understood landscape lighting . . .

I guess when it comes down to it, it is for looks. Most of my lights are on my fence. I do have two up-lights on some trees. Part of the lighting is also on our screened porch, and we do use it quite a bit. I'm sue I could save some money by turning it off when we aren't out there, but it sure is nice to see it through the windows. It makes the yard seem more inviting and safe. The good news is that no one ever "forgets" to turn it off. The computer does that at 10:45pm each night.

[dennisj00]

Not so bad, only 3 or so hours a night. . . if all the resorts / developments / houses did that it would reduce consumption quite a bit. But so many are on all night - for no one to see. Or at least so few to see. . .

[gitarzan]

If all set-top boxes sold in the U.S. met the ENERGY STAR specification, the savings in energy costs will grow to about $2 billion each year and greenhouse gas emissions will be reduced by the equivalent of greenhouse gas emissions from about 2.5 million vehicles - energystar.gov

Only DirecTV and AT&T have set top boxes that are energy star certified. Great job DirecTV.

The Dish VIP 622 HD DVR uses more electricity than many full size kitchen refridgerators. I've tested with a watt meter for a 30 day period.

3 or 4 HD DVR's in a house in a state with high electricity cost will easily exceed $100 per year.

[Thaedron]

So operating the DVR in the winter isn't "free" UNLESS you have electric resistance heat, or something even more costly (like wood heat fueled by duraflames from 7-11).

OMG, just about spit my water out and all over the computer screen... :icon_lol:

Heating your home with Duraflames purchased @ 7-11 might be slightly more expensive than just burning $1 bills...

[dennisj00]

But that same house probably has a $400-600 MONTHLY bill that could be reduced in many other ways!

[rudeney]

Electricity in my neck of the woods has gone from about $0.07/kWH to about $0.11/kWH over the last four years. I used to be frustrated when my power bill was over $200/mo in the summer months. Now, I can only pray it stays below $400/mo. Basically, the bulk of this (at least $200/mo) is due to running the A/C. We do like to keep the house cold. It's great in the winter when my gas heating bill never exceeds $100/mo, but as you can see, we make up for it in the summer. Unfortunately, we get more "summer" than "winter" here. The extra $10-$12/mo to run my D* DVR's is not really much of a concern to my budget.

[veryoldschool]

Electricity in my neck of the woods has gone from about $0.07/kWH to about $0.11/kWH over the last four years. I used to be frustrated when my power bill was over $200/mo in the summer months. Now, I can only pray it stays below $400/mo. Basically, the bulk of this (at least $200/mo) is due to running the A/C. We do like to keep the house cold. It's great in the winter when my gas heating bill never exceeds $100/mo, but as you can see, we make up for it in the summer. Unfortunately, we get more "summer" than "winter" here. The extra $10-$12/mo to run my D* DVR's is not really much of a concern to my budget.
Feel "lucky", I just looked @ what my most expensive Kwh was [last month]: $0.354
We have a staggered rate, with baseline @ $0.115 [which I've never been able to stay under]

[spartanstew]

Electricity in my neck of the woods has gone from about $0.07/kWH to about $0.11/kWH over the last four years. I used to be frustrated when my power bill was over $200/mo in the summer months. Now, I can only pray it stays below $400/mo.

Dang, my August bill last year was almost $800.

[alv]

I never understand the argument that we use more energy elsewhere. The total cost to power DVR's is equal to several power plants (I did the math a year ago and forget the exact number). One manufacturer doing the right thing could solve a small but non-negligible part of the problem. What is wrong with that? Is it that people don't trust D* to do it without error? The answer to climate change is 1000's of small steps not one big one.

[dodge boy]

Here in my home town we have our own electric and water departments, I get electric water and sewage all on 1 bill all 3 combined is usually 70-80 per month, and yes I bathe/shower daily and wash 4 vehicles in the summer and run my central air.....

[crasmus22]

Using Kill A Watt device and an HR22-100 I've measured 23W during boot, 34W in stand-by and 35W while on.

[gitarzan]

My HR21-200 with AM21 and slimline-5 uses 36 watts. Unplug one sat input it still uses 36 watts. Unplug both sat inputs it uses 27 watts.

[gitarzan]

Here in my home town we have our own electric and water departments, I get electric water and sewage all on 1 bill all 3 combined is usually 70-80 per month, and yes I bathe/shower daily and wash 4 vehicles in the summer and run my central air.....


Coal power vs clean power... States where 80% of the power comes from coal have much lower electricity cost.

[armophob]

Down here in Florida, FPL raises rates when revenue is down from people using less electricity. I say to keep rates low, we keep the dvrs at a steady 29-35w.

[Ken S]

You can save a whole lot more power by unplugging your TVs and leaving them that way. Check the power usage on your TVs when in use it's a bit frightening.

[David MacLeod]

dump all water heaters that store water, use on demand.
buy more efficient appliances.
stop worrying about your dvr.

[gitarzan]

Down here in Florida, FPL raises rates when revenue is down from people using less electricity. I say to keep rates low, we keep the dvrs at a steady 29-35w.

Small changes may mean that a new power plant doesn't have to be built in your community. I read where Austin Texas purchased ground to build a new plant. Then started a conservation program that has saved more electricity than what would have been delivered by the new power plant. The plant has not been built.

I think 29-35w is pretty good for DVR's for now. I hope Dish notices that DirecTV has the lead in this area.

[dennisj00]

I certainly can't worry about the DVR usage, I just counted 12 spinning hard drives in the house (2 people, 2 cats)! And they're on 24x7.

Slightly off topic, but for the $ per Kwh you guys are seeing, you may want to look at a 3 or 4 KW (or larger) solar system -- on grid, no batteries. Even here in NC at .10 a kwh, it's about a 5 year payback (self installed) with the current tax CREDITS. It supplements and possibly replaces your grid usage, either slowing your meter or running it backwards. (May depend on your meter).

[gitarzan]

I certainly can't worry about the DVR usage, I just counted 12 spinning hard drives in the house (2 people, 2 cats)! And they're on 24x7.

Slightly off topic, but for the $ per Kwh you guys are seeing, you may want to look at a 3 or 4 KW (or larger) solar system -- on grid, no batteries. Even here in NC at .10 a kwh, it's about a 5 year payback (self installed) with the current tax CREDITS. It supplements and possibly replaces your grid usage, either slowing your meter or running it backwards. (May depend on your meter).

It is far cheaper to conserve electricity than it is to make it.

Solar systems with net metering is a great idea. A 5 year payback is very good if you can really do that in North Carolina. I think you may have been given some bad numbers somewhere.

[mcbeevee]

TVs and the black boxes that go with them consume about 10 percent of the power in your home. The California Energy Commission says it's time to cut it down. The industry is already working on it.

California Wants to Cut TV Power by 49% in Four years (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/california-wants-to-cut-tv-power-by-49-in-four-years-5874.html)

:)

[dennisj00]

It is far cheaper to conserve electricity than it is to make it.

Solar systems with net metering is a great idea. A 5 year payback is very good if you can really do that in North Carolina. I think you may have been given some bad numbers somewhere.

The current combined federal / state tax credit is 65% of a $30,000 system in NC. Not bad for a 10,500 net (no batteries) but the 30k upfront is currently hard to swallow! Maybe some stimulus loans?

[armophob]

Took the FPL online energy poll and these are the results for one year. Just for fun.

Appliance Cost Percent

Cooling & Heating $ 938 44 %
Entertainment $ 264 13 %
Laundry $ 142 7 %
Refrigerators $ 111 5 %
Home Office $ 71 3 %
Ceiling Fans $ 37 2 %
Air Cleaner $ 24 1 %
Other Appliances $ 17 1 %
Lighting $ 12 1 %
Unassigned $ 493 23 %

[gitarzan]

Took the FPL online energy poll and these are the results for one year. Just for fun.

Appliance Cost Percent

Cooling & Heating $ 938 44 %
Entertainment $ 264 13 %
Laundry $ 142 7 %
Refrigerators $ 111 5 %
Home Office $ 71 3 %
Ceiling Fans $ 37 2 %
Air Cleaner $ 24 1 %
Other Appliances $ 17 1 %
Lighting $ 12 1 %
Unassigned $ 493 23 %

You must have old refridgerators. My kitchen refridgerator cost about $2.25 month to run (or $3 if I moved to Florida) and it is not even energy star rated.

[gitarzan]

The current combined federal / state tax credit is 65% of a $30,000 system in NC. Not bad for a 10,500 net (no batteries) but the 30k upfront is currently hard to swallow! Maybe some stimulus loans?


That is pretty good and something I would definitely consider if I lived in North Carolina. I don't think my state currently offers any solar incentives. The 30% federal credit is very good but not enough without state assistance. Kentucky energy cost is also not as high as North Carolina. My payback would be much longer. Also, solar should only be considered after other conservation investments such as more insulation and energy efficient appliances.

[gitarzan]

Long cables doesn't trump electric usage? :)

I hear you, please don't take too much from my jocularity.

Some tricky bits to consider:
1) There are over 1,800 stations broadcasting in the US, with DIRECTV needing to carry all the guide data for all of them that are carried on DIRECTV in SD or HD or digital OTA. Many times that means carrying guide data multiple times for multiple sub-channels. At some point, it will be all stations.

So for the moment, lets say the total number of guide channels is 4,000 (2*1800, plus 400 nationals) for simplicity. And the guide goes out 14 days.

And each guide entry is fairly long xml by the time you get all the title, ratings (with detail), actors, directors, etc.

All that adds up and isn't easily stored entirely in memory. (Not all 14 days--plus the incoming data.)

So the disk has to spin to store and update databases--at least every so often. (Big key, that last bit...) :)

And at least one LNB needs to stay hot all the time.

Now, could DIRECTV find a way to spin the disk less than "all the time"? And turn off some of the LNBs and tuners?

Yes. I know they are smart enough to find a way to make it happen. It might be very difficult.

2) But I think they have a list of stability and features that they want much more first.

Once they have all that in place, they can focus on greening.

Now, another approach you can take, coming very soon, will be to replace some or more of your HR2x with H21/22/23 that don't have a disk. Let them be clients from the HR2x(s) that remain. That will reduce your electricity significantly and even let you turn off the receivers at will with an external power switch.

So, in a way, DIRECTV is also attacking the issue.

Cheers,
Tom

So getting guide data is the biggest technical hurdle to having a sleep mode? I wouldn't have thought that.

[Tom Robertson]

So getting guide data is the biggest technical hurdle to having a sleep mode? I wouldn't have thought that.

Guide is the hangup for a sleeping disk. There are other data streams that the receivers need regularly for proper operation (authorization and channel mappings) that make a true sleep mode difficult. Those streams are typically small enough that the disk could sleep, but the tuner and LNB could not (easily.)

Cheers,
Tom

[gitarzan]

Guide is the hangup for a sleeping disk. There are other data streams that the receivers need regularly for proper operation (authorization and channel mappings) that make a true sleep mode difficult. Those streams are typically small enough that the disk could sleep, but the tuner and LNB could not (easily.)

Cheers,
Tom

I am an old IT guy and I work 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. I am always curious about how things work. So a hypothetical question.. If I were to unplug my HR21 at midnight during the week and turn it back on at 5pm during the week what would be lost or not work? I typically do not record during that time anyway. Would it miss my prime time recordings? Would I not be able to access most of the guide?

Is the guide data lost when it is turned off? Is that why it takes so long to get guide data when it is powered back on?

[Tom Robertson]

I am an old IT guy and I work 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. I am always curious about how things work. So a hypothetical question.. If I were to unplug my HR21 at midnight during the week and turn it back on at 5pm during the week what would be lost or not work? I typically do not record during that time anyway. Would it miss my prime time recordings? Would I not be able to access most of the guide?

Is the guide data lost when it is turned off? Is that why it takes so long to get guide data when it is powered back on?
There are people who do save energy this way. I have not heard of any major problems other than they will get guide holes in the future. The immediate, next few hours, are loaded during the bootup, the rest is saved on disk.

You might miss a few authorizations telling your box it is authorized, but leaving it on all weekend "should" likely take care of that. And if you keep the DIRECTV website to re-authorize handy, you will be good.

The only feature you would miss would be the movies downloaded to the reserved section of disk. You'll likely have some, but likely miss many. If you don't use PPV or are happy with the wait for the next PPV showing, you'll be fine there too.

Cheers,
Tom

[David MacLeod]

Tom, with the networking capabilities starting to show up in the boxes would you expect some guide/authorization augmentation from network to come into play?
this might help, if always on network available at the home owners location, a self controlled sleep mode.

[gitarzan]

There are people who do save energy this way. I have not heard of any major problems other than they will get guide holes in the future. The immediate, next few hours, are loaded during the bootup, the rest is saved on disk.

You might miss a few authorizations telling your box it is authorized, but leaving it on all weekend "should" likely take care of that. And if you keep the DIRECTV website to re-authorize handy, you will be good.

The only feature you would miss would be the movies downloaded to the reserved section of disk. You'll likely have some, but likely miss many. If you don't use PPV or are happy with the wait for the next PPV showing, you'll be fine there too.

Cheers,
Tom

Tom, thank you for the information.

I don't turn off my HR21 because I forget and don't have it plugged into wall switch outlet. If it were something I could schedule I would do so. I forgot about the satellite downloaded movies. That is probably a revenue stream that DirecTV doesn't like being turned off but I don't watch anyway.


This is how I would like to see it work. Give the user an optional 'away mode' where the user sets his normal away hours, like midnight to 5pm Sunday - Thursday. If the DVR has nothing to do for 4 hours or longer it should sleep for 4 hours (shutting down everything excepts its clock). Then it wakes up gets authorizations, guide data and goes back to sleep if there is nothing to record for 4 more hours.

[armophob]

You must have old refridgerators. My kitchen refridgerator cost about $2.25 month to run (or $3 if I moved to Florida) and it is not even energy star rated.

Kenmore Elite 2005, energy star as well. You have to remember, these are formula numbers from an online questionnaire. Not results from my tests.

[Jhon69]

Dang, my August bill last year was almost $800.


That would have me calling a solar installer.:eek2:


Solar,wind turbine,squirrels in a cage.;)

[Tom Robertson]

That would have me calling a solar installer.:eek2:


Solar,wind turbine,squirrels in a cage.;)

Grandkids in a game that generated electricity from all their energy. :)

[dennisj00]

Unfortunately the human body isn't a great source of energy. . . at least sustained for any length of time.

[Tom Robertson]

Unfortunately the human body isn't a great source of energy. . . at least sustained for any lenght of time.

No little kids in your household? :)

[dennisj00]

No, even when they visit, you can't capture it. . .

[DarinC]

You must have old refridgerators. My kitchen refridgerator cost about $2.25 month to run (or $3 if I moved to Florida) and it is not even energy star rated.

You must have really low electricity rates, or a manual defrost model. $2.25/m for a non-energy star model seems really low.

[gitarzan]

My electric utility charges about 7.4 cents per Kwh 24x7x365. My 17.8 cu ft Fridgidaire was manufactured in 2001 just after all refridgerators were required to meet the higher government standards. It keeps drinks cold. Just realized my electric cost have risen slightly since I measured last summer. $2.50/month would be more accurate.

[gitarzan]

Unfortunately the human body isn't a great source of energy. . . at least sustained for any lenght of time.

An amazing fact about The Mall of America which is in a very cold climate. It has no heating system. The people, lighting and passive solar makes it unnescessary. On a smaller scale, a room full of people does make a difference.

[DarinC]

Just realized my electric cost have risen slightly since I measured last summer. $2.50/month would be more accurate.

So that was based on an actual measurement rather than the energyguide label? I have a kill-a-watt, but have never put my fridge on it. How long of a period did you measure it over?

[gitarzan]

So that was based on an actual measurement rather than the energyguide label? I have a kill-a-watt, but have never put my fridge on it. How long of a period did you measure it over?

I pluged it into a killawatt for a week and projected the energy and cost for a month. I was making a comparison to a Dish VIP 622 HD DVR which cost slightly more to run.

[DarinC]

I was making a comparison to a Dish VIP 622 HD DVR which cost slightly more to run.

A discrepency between actual measured consumption and the energyguide label isn't itself surprising, but measured consumption of a refrigerator being higher than a DVR is! :eek2: I'm curious to measure mine now, though my fridge is about 15 years old, side by side unit with ice in the door, so I'm sure it would be a lot higher.

Your consumption still seems surprisingly low. $2.50 equates to about 31 kwh assuming $0.08/kwh. If we assume a 50% duty cycle, that's only 87 watts average while running, if my math is correct. And that's before taking in to account defrost cycles, and the fact that summer usage should be worst case. That just seems really low. :confused:

[veryoldschool]

Not to get too far off topic [but]:
An 18.6 cf refrigerator is on the small side, which can help.
I just got a new 21 cf and "the guide" lists 34.6 KWh/month [416 yearly], which at my cheapest rate [.115] is about $4/month.

[gitarzan]

A discrepency between actual measured consumption and the energyguide label isn't itself surprising, but measured consumption of a refrigerator being higher than a DVR is! :eek2: I'm curious to measure mine now, though my fridge is about 15 years old, side by side unit with ice in the door, so I'm sure it would be a lot higher.

Your consumption still seems surprisingly low. $2.50 equates to about 31 kwh assuming $0.08/kwh. If we assume a 50% duty cycle, that's only 87 watts average while running, if my math is correct. And that's before taking in to account defrost cycles, and the fact that summer usage should be worst case. That just seems really low. :confused:

It uses about 118-122 watts when it is 'on' which is probably close to 40% of the time or an average 48 watts.

[DarinC]

Perhaps I just haven't realized how much more efficient the newer ones are. But even with the savings, it's kind of hard to justify replacing a perfectly good one. I had to buy a new one for my rental property a couple years ago... maybe I should have given them my old one and bought myself a new one. :D

[gitarzan]

Perhaps I just haven't realized how much more efficient the newer ones are. But even with the savings, it's kind of hard to justify replacing a perfectly good one. I had to buy a new one for my rental property a couple years ago... maybe I should have given them my old one and bought myself a new one. :D

This is the best web site I know of for saving electrictiy info...this is his page that talks about refridgerators

michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html

[dennisj00]

An amazing fact about The Mall of America which is in a very cold climate. It has no heating system. The people, lighting and passive solar makes it unnescessary. On a smaller scale, a room full of people does make a difference.

I'd almost bet they have some backup system. The Mall closing for a couple of cloudy days could get messy.

But true, our by-products of heat, moisture and waste don't currently convert very easily to usable forms like electricity.

Even Lance Armstrong whose output is easily twice the average male generates about 1 kilowatt-hour in a typical day of the Tour de France.

He also has a resting heartbeat of 24-32 !!

Back to topic, the HR2x consumpton is the least of our worries!!

[DarinC]

Does that mall never close? It is completely normal for commercial buildings to require cooling even during the winter months, but virtually every building in locations that have cold seasons, even down here in Atlanta, requires heat for morning warm-up.

[TomCat]

Unless you live someplace where you have no summer air conditioning costs, it doesn't work out that way. In the heating season, heating your home with waste heat from the DVR would be heat at the equivalent efficiency of electric resistance heat, which is generally somewhat expensive. So if you spend $1 to operate the DVR, the heat it puts out is less than what that same $1 would give you with natural gas or an electric heat pump. So operating the DVR in the winter isn't "free" UNLESS you have electric resistance heat, or something even more costly (like wood heat fueled by duraflames from 7-11). And in the summer time, for every $1 you spend to power your DVR, you might have to spend an additional $0.30-0.50 in air conditioning costs to remove that heat. And at least around here, our electric rates are about twice as high in the summer as they are in the winter. So the extra load on the a/c is much more costly than any savings on the heat bill in the winter.Gee. Thanks for splitting that hair for us. I didn't say it was free heat, I said it wasn't entirely wasted during the cold season. Most of us are not chimps, and do not need a lecture on the differences between resistive and inductive heating costs, which we all learned in high school physics class. Somehow I didn't expect my comment, which I considered pretty innocent, to morph into a diatribe on Duraflame logs. But you get all kinds on the internet, so maybe I shouldn't be entirely surprised. ;)

[TomCat]

...Even though it's pretty, I've never understood landscape lighting . . .I think you just proved that you do understand it. People do it because they like it. It's "pretty". There's really not much more to understand. :)

[TomCat]

...If I were to unplug my HR21 at midnight during the week and turn it back on at 5pm during the week what would be lost or not work?... Speaking as a broadcast engineer, the wear and tear turning electronics on and off (with associated spikes) is probably not worth the effort. There is a great debate about whether spindown is actually good for extending drive life or shortening it, for instance.

We never turn anything off. We have TV monitors that have run since our UPS was installed a decade ago. They glow all night to empty production and editing suites. Not very green, I know, but every bench tech can tell you about numerous times when equipment worked right up to the time it got unplugged, and then took major repair to get it up again.

[armophob]

I think you just proved that you do understand it. People do it because they like it. It's "pretty". There's really not much more to understand. :)

Well that and so they can see better not to trip and split their head on the pretty landscape.:)

[bjoh]

I have three DVRs and I am bothered by their power consumption and the overindulgence. That said I am guilty as anyone. Some answer is found in a multi room DVR. One hard drive feeding all the TVs in my home. Apparently /a whole house system was announced/alluded to/ at one point- Directv has not committed or abandoned resource this. Constant energy use is one issue-- all those extra manufactured electronic boxes is another. Does not D* have responsibility in looking for energy savings for customers as well as the rest of the cooperate community?? Seems silly to me that a whole house HD and SD system is not available.

[Tom Robertson]

I have three DVRs and I am bothered by their power consumption and the overindulgence. That said I am guilty as anyone. Some answer is found in a multi room DVR. One hard drive feeding all the TVs in my home. Apparently /a whole house system was announced/alluded to/ at one point- Directv has not committed or abandoned resource this. Constant energy use is one issue-- all those extra manufactured electronic boxes is another. Does not D* have responsibility in looking for energy savings for customers as well as the rest of the cooperate community?? Seems silly to me that a whole house HD and SD system is not available.

The whole house DVR is in active development in various stages: hardware (not sure about its current status); User Interface (very active); software (also very active.)

The topic is regularly brought up at investors conferences and still tracking along the original timeline. I'm expecting DBStalkers will see it late this year or early next. (And we're already seeing pieces of the software.) :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Tron]

Just FYI what I got off my KillaWatt meter: HR23-700: 20W off and 22W on. I think that's very good! Internal temp is about 105-108F and I never hear the fan on.

[gitarzan]

Just FYI what I got off my KillaWatt meter: HR23-700: 20W off and 22W on. I think that's very good! Internal temp is about 105-108F and I never hear the fan on.

That is really good. Almost 40% less than my HR21. I wonder why.

[Tom Robertson]

Just FYI what I got off my KillaWatt meter: HR23-700: 20W off and 22W on. I think that's very good! Internal temp is about 105-108F and I never hear the fan on.

That is really good. Almost 40% less than my HR21. I wonder why.

I was going to test mine this week. I wonder, is the HR23 on a SWM or SWM LNB, that will cut 10W. (the SWM powers the LNBs instead.)

[luckydob]

Unfortunately the human body isn't a great source of energy. . . at least sustained for any length of time.

not so sure...in a large setting like Beijing or NYC it could be.

http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2007/08/using_human_motion_to_create_e.php

[dennisj00]

not so sure...in a large setting like Beijing or NYC it could be.

http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2007/08/using_human_motion_to_create_e.php

I'll just say this won't be powering your HR2x in your lifetime!

[Tron]

I was going to test mine this week. I wonder, is the HR23 on a SWM or SWM LNB, that will cut 10W. (the SWM powers the LNBs instead.)

Yes, the HR-23 is on a SL3-SWM setup...haha, I thought I was saving bigtime wattage...forgot about the PI. I'll have to attach the killawatt to the PI and see what it reads.... I'll post back when I get to it... But still, I would think this would help the HR-23 last longer as it doesn't have to 'exert' as much of its own power.

[DarinC]

I was going to test mine this week. I wonder, is the HR23 on a SWM or SWM LNB, that will cut 10W. (the SWM powers the LNBs instead.)

In a non-SWM multi-receiver set-up, what determines which receiver is powering the multiswitch & LNBs? In my previous setup (before Ka) my multiswitch had it's own power supply. But I'm pretty sure the new one doesn't.

[HersheyBud]

"It's akin to complaining about the high cost of diesel for your yacht, or tires for your Ferarri. You gotta pay to play."

+1

[Tom Robertson]

In a non-SWM multi-receiver set-up, what determines which receiver is powering the multiswitch & LNBs? In my previous setup (before Ka) my multiswitch had it's own power supply. But I'm pretty sure the new one doesn't.

In a non-swm arrangement, the tuners supply power, even if the switch is powered, I believe. Now... I don't know if the power draw differs between a powered switch and an unpowered switch. That would also be an interesting test. Alas, I don't have a powered WB616 to test.

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

In a non-swm arrangement, the tuners supply power, even if the switch is powered, I believe. Now... I don't know if the power draw differs between a powered switch and an unpowered switch. That would also be an interesting test. Alas, I don't have a powered WB616 to test.

Cheers,
Tom
"I think" voltage but not "power". The LNBs should still be driven by the powered switch, while the tuners "simply" supply "tune voltage" for the switch.

From what I'm reading:
OTA tuners use power
LNBs draw power unless on a SWM/powered multiswitch/Sonora locker.

[DarinC]

In a non-swm arrangement, the tuners supply power, even if the switch is powered, I believe.

The part that I was wondering was which DVR was supplying the power. Sharing the load between connected DVRs would require some way of splitting the power up while still isolating them for protection. Seems to me that it would be much simpler to power the LNBs from just one DVR. If that's the case, people should expect a slight variance in power draw from unit to unit, even if they are otherwise identical. But I have no idea... maybe they do share the load.

[veryoldschool]

The part that I was wondering was which DVR was supplying the power. Sharing the load between connected DVRs would require some way of splitting the power up while still isolating them for protection. Seems to me that it would be much simpler to power the LNBs from just one DVR. If that's the case, people should expect a slight variance in power draw from unit to unit, even if they are otherwise identical. But I have no idea... maybe they do share the load.
If 2 tuners are suppling the same tune voltage, the current draw should be divided between the two. "I doubt" there is any "isolation" for protection, but just a "simple" DC circuit.

[DarinC]

"I doubt" there is any "isolation" for protection, but just a "simple" DC circuit.

I guess my assumption was wrong then. Though on second thought, since this is all DC, I guess they could be isolated fairly easy with diodes if they wanted. But even with a shared load, the external load could vary depending on how many other receivers (if any) are sharing the external load (such as one tuned to an 18v transponder, and all the others tuned to 13v transponders). I doubt the LNBs and multiswitch draw too much power, but I do remember my previous multiswitch getting fairly warm. Not sure about the current one.

[veryoldschool]

I guess my assumption was wrong then. Though on second thought, since this is all DC, I guess they could be isolated fairly easy with diodes if they wanted. But even with a shared load, the external load could vary depending on how many other receivers (if any) are sharing the external load (such as one tuned to an 18v transponder, and all the others tuned to 13v transponders). I doubt the LNBs and multiswitch draw too much power, but I do remember my previous multiswitch getting fairly warm. Not sure about the current one.
Isn't this what is done in the multi-switch to select which LNB/cable?
As for your previous switch getting warm, this may be due [in part] to the voltage drop from the supply voltage to LNB voltage. [ie: 20 volt supply needing to be dropped to 13 volts for LNB].
IIRC: the slimline is rated @ ~ 500 milliamps [some of the multiswitches list 450 ma]

[DarinC]

Isn't this what is done in the multi-switch to select which LNB/cable?
I don't know, I don't think I've ever seen a schematic on one.

[veryoldschool]

I don't know, I don't think I've ever seen a schematic on one.
The ones I've seen don't have full detail, but to get the switch "to switch" seems that below 14 volts goes one place/way and above goes the other. Then add in the tone/no tone and you have the four "options".

[Tom Robertson]

I'm pretty sure there are diodes to protect everything. Being the cautious designer I am, I'd likely have them both in the tuners and the switches. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

I'm pretty sure there are diodes to protect everything. Being the cautious designer I am, I'd likely have them both in the tuners and the switches. :)

Cheers,
Tom
Sorry the memo said to make these cheap, causing these "diodes" to be only used in the receivers [and maybe not even there, ask "Smoke"] . :lol:

[Tom Robertson]

Sorry the memo said to make these cheap, causing these "diodes" to be only used in the receivers [and maybe not even there, ask "Smoke"] . :lol:

Even diodes have their limits :) (Good point, about SMOKE...)