View Full Version : Shut down software for internal drives
I would really like to see a software option that would shutdown the internal hard drives and leave the fans running when using an eSATA. The 20's fans do run after they "see" the eSATA, but the 21's fans shut off. If they can make the fans shut off (and I do believe they get their juice from the power cord on the internal drive), why can't the internal drive shut down too when an eSATA is attached?
Thoughts?
Rich
veryoldschool
03-14-09, 09:45 AM
I would really like to see a software option that would shutdown the internal hard drives and leave the fans running when using an eSATA. The 20's fans do run after they "see" the eSATA, but the 21's fans shut off. If they can make the fans shut off (and I do believe they get their juice from the power cord on the internal drive), why can't the internal drive shut down too when an eSATA is attached?
Thoughts?
Rich
"The fan" may not shut down and may be needed for airflow through the STB.
hdtvfan0001
03-14-09, 09:53 AM
"The fan" may not shut down and may be needed for airflow through the STB.
Indeed - there's more to cool than just the hard drive.
DarkSkies
03-14-09, 10:41 AM
The OP is not asking that fans be shut down, he's asking that the internal drive be shut down. Regarding the fans, he was just commenting that there is a difference in behavior between the HR20 and HR21 with the fans, saying that if they can shut off fans on one model they apparently can isolate internal devices, so why can't they shut down the power to the internal drive?
I would really like to see a software option that would shutdown the internal hard drives and leave the fans running when using an eSATA.
Bold empahis in the quote is mine.
veryoldschool
03-14-09, 10:56 AM
The OP is not asking that fans be shut down, he's asking that the internal drive be shut down. Regarding the fans, he was just commenting that there is a difference in behavior between the HR20 and HR21 with the fans, saying that if they can shut off fans on one model they apparently can isolate internal devices, so why can't they shut down the power to the internal drive?
Rich asked for thoughts, which were given.
Shutting down the internal drives is a very old [2 years] question and one would think if it could be done, it would have by now.
DarkSkies
03-14-09, 11:02 AM
Rich asked for thoughts, which were given.
Shutting down the internal drives is a very old [2 years] question and one would think if it could be done, it would have by now.It seemes that the first 2 replies to the OP only addressed the fan issue, so that's why I chimed in with my 2pence. :)
Yeah, I see that the question may be an old one, but 2 years ago the HR21 didn't exist, so I think it's always appropriate to revisit old topics in light of new changes and other external influences. We still have topics on DLB, on access to the To Do List, on banner ads in the Guide, etc. I see nothing wrong with that, as attitudes and opinions do change over time and if a thread or specific post get the attention of the right person at DIRECTV, one never knows what will happen, right? :)
veryoldschool
03-14-09, 11:14 AM
As you'll see in my first reply, I questioned whether the fan does change with the eSATA connected.
I have to wonder how many "tweaks" can be added to the software when it has such limited storage on the chips.
"Myself" would rather have it go to the up coming HR to HR MRV, than [be wasted for me] to something not all would use/need. [just my .02] :)
"The fan" may not shut down and may be needed for airflow through the STB.
I would rather see the fan stay on and that we be given the option to energize the internal drive or not energize it. If that can't be done, I'd rather see both deenergized. But I don't see why the fan can't be "told" by the software to stay on whether or not the internal drive is energized.
Rich
The OP is not asking that fans be shut down, he's asking that the internal drive be shut down. Regarding the fans, he was just commenting that there is a difference in behavior between the HR20 and HR21 with the fans, saying that if they can shut off fans on one model they apparently can isolate internal devices, so why can't they shut down the power to the internal drive?
Bold empahis in the quote is mine.
Exactly, thanx.
Rich
Rich asked for thoughts, which were given.
Shutting down the internal drives is a very old [2 years] question and one would think if it could be done, it would have by now.
I've never seen a post or thread that suggested that it could not be done thru the software. I feel the tops of my 21-700s that are attached to eSATAs and the fans are not running and they are not hot to the touch. Not much different than my son's 21-200 without an eSATA, or my 22-100 that also does not have an eSATA attached.
And before the question arises, the only 21s that I know for sure that the fan stops when the eSATA is recognized are the 21-700s and the 21-200s. If they are gonna stop the fan, why not the hard drive?
Rich
It seemes that the first 2 replies to the OP only addressed the fan issue, so that's why I chimed in with my 2pence. :)
Yeah, I see that the question may be an old one, but 2 years ago the HR21 didn't exist, so I think it's always appropriate to revisit old topics in light of new changes and other external influences. We still have topics on DLB, on access to the To Do List, on banner ads in the Guide, etc. I see nothing wrong with that, as attitudes and opinions do change over time and if a thread or specific post get the attention of the right person at DIRECTV, one never knows what will happen, right? :)
You're correct, I didn't get my first 21-700 until January of 2007. And every 21 that I've had since then that I have attached an eSATA to, the fan has stopped. This wasn't an issue with the 20s, when you attach an eSATA, the fan keeps running.
Rich
armophob
03-14-09, 12:20 PM
You're correct, I didn't get my first 21-700 until January of 2007. And every 21 that I've had since then that I have attached an eSATA to, the fan has stopped. This wasn't an issue with the 20s, when you attach an eSATA, the fan keeps running.
Rich
Just curious, the ones where the fans stopped. Did you ever notice them getting warmer to the touch or in the menu?
Just curious, the ones where the fans stopped. Did you ever notice them getting warmer to the touch or in the menu?
No more than I expected. They've been running like that for a while and I always check them by feel. No problems yet.
You can't read the temp in the menu, you get the default 77 degrees. When you see that or 32 degrees, you know the fan is not running. Before I hooked up the eSATAs the temp readings were normal.
Rich
louiss3000
03-15-09, 04:59 AM
So the fan might be controlled by HD temp, and eSATA may not be passing a temp to the controller, so the controller defaults to 32'. No fan needed at 32'. Just a thought.
hdtvfan0001
03-15-09, 07:48 AM
I suspect you will not see the ability to "shut down" (disable) the internal drive with an external SATA drive used, until DirecTV "officially" supports the use of an external drive. Yes, it works, but is not "officially" supported.
So the fan might be controlled by HD temp, and eSATA may not be passing a temp to the controller, so the controller defaults to 32'. No fan needed at 32'. Just a thought.
I've only seen the 32 degree reading once and that was on a bad box. Normally, on a 21, you get 77 degrees for a reading and that is the default reading. Don't know quite what the 32 degree reading is all about.
Once you see the 77 degrees on a 21, you can bet the fan won't run.
Rich
I suspect you will not see the ability to "shut down" (disable) the internal drive with an external SATA drive used, until DirecTV "officially" supports the use of an external drive. Yes, it works, but is not "officially" supported.
I know, but I keep trying. I will be a happy camper when they finally recognize the eSATA function.
Rich
Its pretty easy to tell a disk drive to spin down due to lack of activity.
I will be a happy camper when they finally recognize the eSATA function.
What might poke a hole in the happiness is that we already know which two external drives they're going to support, and practically nobody is using them.
hdtvfan0001
03-15-09, 11:59 AM
Its pretty easy to tell a disk drive to spin down due to lack of activity.
Yup....put it into nappy mode. :D
(Most folks call it hibernation)
.
What might poke a hole in the happiness is that we already know which two external drives they're going to support, and practically nobody is using them.
Is that a hard fact or an opinion gathered because of a question that was asked of one of the moderators? A while ago I asked Stuart Sweet a question about eSATAs and he said he wasn't that familiar with them and would get back to us. I think that is what caused Doug Brott to post about the two eSATAs in question. He posted very soon after Stuart said he would check with someone more knowledgeable and I've always assumed that Doug's reply was the result.
Rich
Is that a hard fact or an opinion gathered because of a question that was asked of one of the moderators? A while ago I asked Stuart Sweet a question about eSATAs and he said he wasn't that familiar with them and would get back to us. I think that is what caused Doug Brott to post about the two eSATAs in question. He posted very soon after Stuart said he would check with someone more knowledgeable and I've always assumed that Doug's reply was the result.
Rich
What two drives were named?
veryoldschool
03-16-09, 11:27 AM
What two drives were named?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10078351-1.html
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=334
Is that a hard fact or an opinion gathered because of a question that was asked of one of the moderators?
I suppose it depends on what you consider a hard fact.
Doug has mentioned about six times that those two drives are Dbstalks recommendations, and when asked if they would be the officially supported drive by directv, said something to the effect 'that would be a good presumption'.
Data leaks on unannounced stuff seems to be rather rare, so I take this one seriously.
As a guess, I'm thinking that this was passed along so everyone had the info, and if they chose to buy something else...hey...we told you so.
This is why one of my esatas has a seagate pipeline in it (same drive as the seagate showcase) and the other has a seagate db35, which is a drive that was used as an internal in some models of the HR.
The software shouldnt be able to tell the difference between what I have and regular supported HR drives.
Why might these work and others cause troubles? These drives can take commands for read and write streams that change error control, cache buffering and encryption that other drives wont process. Its possible that the HR software may elect to not work with drives that dont return the right drive identification (which tivo does do) or kick out drives that dont support these AV command sets.
Its also possible that it'll continue working to some degree, but if you call in a receiver problem with an unsupported e-sata attached, you'll be asked to retry your problems with the internal drive or a supported drive.
And they'd know. The startup log for linux includes all the drive information, including the ident showing the make and model of disk drive.
I suppose it depends on what you consider a hard fact.
Doug has mentioned about six times that those two drives are Dbstalks recommendations, ...
I could also well be the case that those are the drives (and drivers) that DirecTV has specifically designed to and tested. DirecTV is not saying "don't use drive x". What they are saying is "We know drives y and z work". Big difference there.
Doesnt seem that they've said anything at all, actually.
All we got is "good idea to use these drives".
Once again, dipping into the tea leaves, Directv tends to say nothing about anything until its a released product. That it seems they've seeded the mods to make a statement about future product support seems fairly serious, in that light.
Looking at similar industry players, there are drive expanders for some cable boxes and for tivos. As far as I know, many of the receivers will refuse to work with a non-certified external drive. I can see why. Lots of room for some el cheapo or incompatible drive to cause lots of problems that the STB support provider then gets blamed for.
I dont know any more than anyone else, but when I see a break in policy, I figure theres a reason. Hell, when the HR22 came out, nobody knew about it or said anything about it until someone got one installed and posted about it. And that was just the same receiver with a slightly larger hard drive.
Sooooo..."we recommend you use x and y" with the recommendation coming from the manufacturer with about the tightest lips in the business? Do your own tea leaf readings...
Mine say that directv didnt want to announce support and have all the people who've put esatas on their box to be annoyed that their choice of drive was not on the support list, or worse...that it wouldnt be allowed to operate anymore.
Way to head that off? Tell people what will work, and if they go ahead and choose something else, hey...we told ya so.
I could also well be the case that those are the drives (and drivers) that DirecTV has specifically designed to and tested. DirecTV is not saying "don't use drive x". What they are saying is "We know drives y and z work". Big difference there.
That was the way I took the post. Imagine the uproar, if all the folks who bought eSATAs the last couple years couldn't use them. My eSATAs have done no harm to any of my HRs. After what they put us thru the first year with the HRs, how could they possibly have the nerve to say "This and this are the only two drives that we will allow."?
As far as it not being "supported'', are we really supported by the CSRs, who read off scripts, know virtually nothing about an HR, don't possess an HR and whose final answer is either reformat the drive or we'll send you a replacement? Is that support? Are we supported by installers who have virtually no training, can't mount a dish correctly and are called by misinformed CSRs "technicians"?
I don't need help with my eSATAs. All I have ever asked for is to be able to use any eSATA on any HR within my account. And to be allowed thru a software option to shut down the internal drive.
Rich
Rich, I think your expressed frustration is exactly the sort of thing directv wants to head off by giving recommendations.
I think Doug made the first comment about the WD DVR Expander and the Seagate Showcase about six months ago. I thought it was an interesting comment since the Showcase wasnt even a released product yet.
But basically what we're using is an unsupported feature, largely not using the recommended drives, and basing product selections on a collection of institutional knowledge that frankly differs from the institutional knowledge of other DVR communities with regards to external DVR storage upgrades.
So would directv really be yanking peoples chains if they announced official support for the product, limited to two readily available devices, which we were advised to select six months ago, when the first thing Earl said about it was 'this is unsupported, use at your own risk...'?
Its not without precedent. Tivo has a supported external drive product, also the WD DVR Expander, and lets you put one of those on the box. If you put something else on, it doesnt work. You can hack it and open it up and put your own drives in, but at that point you've pretty much taken over support and ownership of the hardware issues. Prior to that, tivo had no specific solution, but you could hack it yourself. But you were on your own, support wise.
Sure, people will be pissed if something like this happens, and I hope it doesnt. On the other hand, now that this information appears to be well described, if I were buying an esata drive for my HR box, I'd be sure to buy one of the two recommended boxes or be prepared to eat whatever alternative solution I purchased.
So would directv really be yanking peoples chains if they announced official support for the product, limited to two readily available devices, which we were advised to select six months ago, when the first thing Earl said about it was 'this is unsupported, use at your own risk...'?
I think if you go back in Earl's posts, you'll find that he said that several times, starting just after the function was enabled.
Its not without precedent. Tivo has a supported external drive product, also the WD DVR Expander, and lets you put one of those on the box.
Have you read the reviews on the WD DVR Expander? Not good.
If you put something else on, it doesnt work. You can hack it and open it up and put your own drives in, but at that point you've pretty much taken over support and ownership of the hardware issues. Prior to that, tivo had no specific solution, but you could hack it yourself. But you were on your own, support wise.
Sure, people will be pissed if something like this happens, and I hope it doesnt. On the other hand, now that this information appears to be well described, if I were buying an esata drive for my HR box, I'd be sure to buy one of the two recommended boxes or be prepared to eat whatever alternative solution I purchased.
If it gets to that point, I'll buy all my HRs outright and put large internals in them. Eight HRs at what? $470 each? I did this with TiVos and had no problem. I do realize that everyone can't afford to do this, but some of us can and I would have no problem with it. Be a nice boost to the economy. :lol:
Rich
CCarncross
03-17-09, 10:54 AM
Can you shut down a drive on your pc, without disconnecting it, and keep other drive(s) up and running? I've never tried it, never really had a need. And I read all the posts, but kind of skimmed some of the longer ones, is this because it will save like 1.21 jiggawatts of energy, which it really won't, or is there some other reason I'm not thinking of?
Also, doesnt it seem rather silly or am I missing something else where the new HR's have 500GB drives in them, and the DVR expander is only 500GB? The whole idea is to increase your space.
Can you shut down a drive on your pc, without disconnecting it, and keep other drive(s) up and running? I've never tried it, never really had a need. And I read all the posts, but kind of skimmed some of the longer ones, is this because it will save like 1.21 jiggawatts of energy, which it really won't, or is there some other reason I'm not thinking of?
Also, doesnt it seem rather silly or am I missing something else where the new HR's have 500GB drives in them, and the DVR expander is only 500GB? The whole idea is to increase your space.
Read the retailer's reviews of the WD Expander. Not good. And you're correct about the new HRs and the Expanders capacity being the same. I guess they're aiming at the older HRs. Never been thrilled with WD drives, much prefer Seagate drives. Just an opinion.
Rich
veryoldschool
03-17-09, 12:32 PM
Read the retailer's reviews of the WD Expander. Not good. And you're correct about the new HRs and the Expanders capacity being the same. I guess they're aiming at the older HRs. Never been thrilled with WD drives, much prefer Seagate drives. Just an opinion.
Rich
And Seagate has them in 1TB too. :)
And I believe Doug said a 1TB version of the dvr expander might be coming along soon.
Its been a while since I looked at the WD expander reviews, but if I recall correctly most of the people having trouble with them sounded like technical neophytes who bought the wrong disk for their receiver and couldnt get it to work.
I did buy one for my dads HD tivo, and its been invisible since...about 5 months now.
And Seagate has them in 1TB too. :)
Gonna call them up now.
Rich
Just got off the phone with Seagate and the 1TB Showcase is on sale on their site for $199. Here's a link:
http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/home_entertainment/showcase/
Looks kinda like an MX-1 (generally speaking). Made specifically for DVRs and the capacity sizes should be moving up soon.
Rich
A little bit of a premium on that, but at least its cheaper than a tenbox (which isnt one of the drives that was recommended).
Funny its been out a while and still isnt readily available for purchase through the usual retail suspects like newegg and amazon. Only via the seagate site directly and through one other etailer (memory4less) at a huge premium...$330-something.
CCarncross
03-17-09, 02:03 PM
Unless the development for the HR2x boxes specifically make it so you cant use an MX-1 with a reputable drive of your choice, I'll stick with that solution. I still didnt see anywhere in that lit that said they are actively cooled. IMO, Its a fools errand to use an external that is not actively cooled.
sunking
03-17-09, 02:09 PM
I would rather see the fan stay on and that we be given the option to energize the internal drive or not energize it. If that can't be done, I'd rather see both deenergized. But I don't see why the fan can't be "told" by the software to stay on whether or not the internal drive is energized.
Rich
My guess is that even when you have an external drive for the data that the internal drive is still needed for swap and system files and database files. Imagine the number of complaints people would have when they click on the guide button and you then had to wait 5+s for the internal drive to spin up to access what it needed.
And Seagate has them in 1TB too. :)
Ah, sweet success! Not bored now!
Rich
Unless the development for the HR2x boxes specifically make it so you cant use an MX-1 with a reputable drive of your choice, I'll stick with that solution. I still didnt see anywhere in that lit that said they are actively cooled. IMO, Its a fools errand to use an external that is not actively cooled.
I don't quite understand your post. I gather you're talking about the FAP not being actively cooled by a fan. Seagate used a special plastic case that was supposed to kinda pass the heat out of the enclosure. I really never had a problem with one that I didn't cause myself.
I also use a Cavalry 750 and I can't find a fan on that either and I've had it for over a year without a problem. Never took it apart, but I don't see a fan opening anywhere.
I think as you get larger hard drives, the cooling fans must be used. The Seagate Xtremes (1.5TB) have fans and they are not that quiet. I have them in a different room and use a long eSATA to eSATA jumper thru a hole in the wall to connect them to my HRs. Same setup with my really loud 2TB Cavalry eSATA.
Rich
My guess is that even when you have an external drive for the data that the internal drive is still needed for swap and system files and database files. Imagine the number of complaints people would have when they click on the guide button and you then had to wait 5+s for the internal drive to spin up to access what it needed.
Not as far as I know. The flash holds the system code and the box uses one drive or the other, but not both.
The tivo uses this implementation when an esata is attached. All the system stuff happens on the internal drive, all the databases reside there, and any other slack space is used for shorter length recordings. The bulk of the recordings and all the larger ones go to the e-sata. You can subsequently 'divorce' the e-sata, losing all the recordings on it but retaining your settings and whatever recordings are on the internal.
CCarncross
03-18-09, 06:57 AM
The failure rates at least reported here at this site are high by my standards for most of the "eSATA in a box" solutions, and I feel its due to heat related failures in those situations. Those were not specifically designed for 24x7 use, and constant writing either. If you were just using one with your PC, it would not have the same duty cycle as with your DVR, in fact, depending on your pc power settings, it may actually spin down when not in use. That does not happen with the DVR. How many posts have you seen about failed reputable drives in MX-1 enclosures? How many posts have you seen about FAP or Cavalry issues? The anecdotal evidence is pretty strong, and the biggest difference that I see is active cooling.
Never had a FAP so I cant comment on that, but I did buy a 1TB Cavalry unit. Ran extremely hot and that didnt jibe with what some others experiences were.
When I went to disassemble it to remove the drive for other purposes, I found that the rear plate had a bunch of air holes in it. If you put the plate on one way, the holes lined up with another set of air holes in the case. If you put the plate on upside down, it fit fine but all the air holes were blocked.
Mine came from the factory with the plate on upside down. To see what would happen, I put the plate back on right side up and spun the drive up for a few hours. Heat issues went away.
So the people with cavalry failures may have simply had units with the plate on upside down, since apparently their manufacturing/assembly procedure has issues.
The failure rates at least reported here at this site are high by my standards for most of the "eSATA in a box" solutions, and I feel its due to heat related failures in those situations. Those were not specifically designed for 24x7 use, and constant writing either. If you were just using one with your PC, it would not have the same duty cycle as with your DVR, in fact, depending on your pc power settings, it may actually spin down when not in use. That does not happen with the DVR. How many posts have you seen about failed reputable drives in MX-1 enclosures? How many posts have you seen about FAP or Cavalry issues? The anecdotal evidence is pretty strong, and the biggest difference that I see is active cooling.
To be honest, I've never seen anything about a failed MX-1 and I've stated that many times. But, I haven't seen many posts about failed eSATAs either. The only problems I've had with the FAPs is the way they are configured physically. Why a hard drive is made in such a way that it so very easy to tip over is beyond me. That is the problem that I have had with FAPs. Knocked a couple over while they were on and they started banging and clanging. But they both worked. They still recorded and played back, but the noise was just too much.
When I first started using eSATAs, shortly after the function was enabled, I bought eight Cavalry 750s over the course of several months. They all made so much noise I took them back and kept trying them and finally gave up. But thru all the noise, they worked.
The only hard drive I've had fail utterly was a Cavalry in a RAID enclosure that was set so that I could get the full 2TB capacity. That one sounded like it was grinding glass before it destroyed it's power supply. And that one had a huge fan.
Aside from all the hard drive failures I had on TiVos, that 2TB Cav is the ONLY hard drive failure that I have experienced in my life. And I've been using computers for a long time.
Rich
Never had a FAP so I cant comment on that, but I did buy a 1TB Cavalry unit. Ran extremely hot and that didnt jibe with what some others experiences were.
When I went to disassemble it to remove the drive for other purposes, I found that the rear plate had a bunch of air holes in it. If you put the plate on one way, the holes lined up with another set of air holes in the case. If you put the plate on upside down, it fit fine but all the air holes were blocked.
Mine came from the factory with the plate on upside down. To see what would happen, I put the plate back on right side up and spun the drive up for a few hours. Heat issues went away.
So the people with cavalry failures may have simply had units with the plate on upside down, since apparently their manufacturing/assembly procedure has issues.
You do kinda get what you pay for.
Rich
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