View Full Version : Digital cable is making it tough on satellite
I got a call from Time Warner today for a 1 year offer of 36.99 including 14 HBO Channels and all the digital channels. All I got to do is let them have the dish. I have my high speed internet with them and they are making it tough to stay with the satellite. They mention to me that they have 3 Fox Sports Channels they added (Atlantic, Central, and Pacific) and the Tennis Channel. When I went to satellite, the cable was behind and the satellite offered more. It seems to have turned the other way now. I don't have HDTV but they offer 3 of my locals in HD. The best thing my directv has is the NFL Ticket. The 90.00 for High Speed Internet and full cable with 58 additional digital channels and the 14 HBO's is hard to pass on. I get the extended basic cable on all my TV's for no additional charge. I know that doesn't include digital cable but I get nothing with my directv.
Why me....... If I had been working instead of vacationing around the house.
Tell cable to take a hike you will be better off with Directvin long run.
Cyclone
05-28-03, 05:00 PM
Ask them how much all this will be next year. I've check my Comcast local Digitial offering. It stinks! So I'm on Dish for the foreseable future.
Mike123abc
05-28-03, 05:06 PM
Just wait until the end of the year when digital cable ready TVs start to be sold. Then you will be able to add televisions without cable boxes. Then you will really start to see digital cable get the advantage. When you do not have to pay $$ for extra televisions it will make DBS more expensive in multiple television houses.
bills976
05-28-03, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Mike123abc
Just wait until the end of the year when digital cable ready TVs start to be sold. Then you will be able to add televisions without cable boxes. Then you will really start to see digital cable get the advantage. When you do not have to pay $$ for extra televisions it will make DBS more expensive in multiple television houses.
It should be interesting to see if this advance in technology will force E* and D* to drop the stupid $4.99 mirroring fee....
Why cant Dish or Direct develop some sort of pvr that can serve the entire house similar to what comcast just announced?
After the 1st year, I will get the digital channels plus the 14 HBO's (if I want them.... 11.00 bucks either way) for 80.00 dollars (it's actually 75.00 but I added for rate increase...LOL).... Right now I pay 65.00 for directv with no locals and only 7 HBO's..... I have to pay 12.00 for the sports pak to get just a few channels I want.... That kinda sucks in my opinion.....
And one thing that has driven me crazy for months is the Fox Sports Channel (ch 630)..... It freezes up all the time...... Directv said it was the installation so I called the satellite company and they checked everything..... They said it was ok..... Well, directv sent a repairman out and he said it was ok also..... It's not real bad but tough to watch basketball and football...... Directv has no answer..... I'm not sure if some of the others Fox Sports channels do that or not...... I usually watch this one for the Braves and SEC sports.......
american_2000
05-28-03, 07:35 PM
Make sure you read the fine print. If you don't have anything in writing, then they can jack up that rate any time they want. The cable company here has raised their rates 3 time this year alone which made the satellite business around here boom!! I have had Direct for 4 years and I believe I have only seen 2 rate hikes ($2 a month at the most). Im not a big sports fan, but I would never trade my system for anything! Not even for the most gorgeous woman on earth!! (ok, thats pushing it!!)
Mike
I just watched a soccer game on digital Cable! I will NEVER get digital cable, it SUCKS! I have worked in digital cable and satellite installation, and I am ashamed of the quality of picture that I was installing with digitaln cable, so I had to quit and follow my heart in SATELLITE!
Jacob S
05-28-03, 08:29 PM
They are working on a whole house PVR solution as well as developing multi-receiver solutions. Cable may charge you more per receiver in which you need a receiver per tv just as you do with satellite. No charge for the second outlet fee (if they do this) for a two tuner satellite receiver is a good start and is the reason why they would implement this. Having it run on one wire makes it simpler.
Adding wireless tv/audio transmitters and UHF (in which I am sure it will come the UHF) will make it even easier and simpler to install.
Well, I called to see what I owed directv if I cancelled...... Well, I ended up with showtime for 6 months free and my sports pak for 9.00..... I guess they wanted me stay...... I think I will try this every 6 months....
Yes, I agree--Digital cable rocks and rolls over blurry satellite picture!! Many more channels, too.
pez2002
05-29-03, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Bif
Yes, I agree--Digital cable rocks and rolls over blurry satellite picture!! Many more channels, too.
Oh look we have the comcast Digital cable cheerleaders on the board :o If your picture was blurry you must have had it set up wrong becuease my picture is clear
I've had digital cable before...... The picture is equal to satellite but you gotta have good connections...... I had problems all the time..... They fixed them but I got tired of it..... It seem to mess up on the channels I liked..... The damn shopping network never messed up.....
Yes, I have had some problems with the Fox Sports Channels on Directv but no comparison to the problems on cable..... I remember the digital cable going off for days...... Time Warner's comments was they were fixing the problem.....
I had digital Cable with Time Warner while having Sky Angel for a time in 1999...It went out for about a week and all I got was the standard, "we're working on it" answer and shortly after we got Dish Network and havent regretted it since..
To be fair, this was just after the introduction of Digital Cable to Akron-Canton and I'm sure there were bugs to work out. Now they have channels I would like to see on Dish like Goodlife and Trio..
Tim Lones
pez2002
05-29-03, 10:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimL
[B]I had digital Cable with Time Warner while having Sky Angel for a time in 1999...It went out for about a week and all I got was the standard, "we're working on it" answer and shortly after we got Dish Network and havent regretted it since..
To be fair, this was just after the introduction of Digital Cable to Akron-Canton and I'm sure there were bugs to work out. Now they have channels I would like to see on Dish like Goodlife and Trio..
Drop dish network and get directv
Both channels are on Directv
No im not directvs Pimp :lol:
"Quote from Mike:"
Drop dish network and get directv
Both channels are on Directv
No im not directvs Pimp
That was not funny..But if you are going to make a comment like that, get your facts straight..According to Direct Tv's program guide Goodlife is not on Direct TV While Trio is, admittedly. Whether they are on Dish or not doesnt matter to me now..I am happy with Dish Network. still loads better than cable..
Tim Lones
Jacob S
05-29-03, 11:45 PM
There are channels that one has that the other does not and more likely whichever ones the other does not have they will get eventually for the most part.
It seems like the cable has more room to add channels when they want..... The digital cable in my area has alot more channels then directv..... I'm still staying with directv but why is the cable so fast to add channels..... They also have the On Demand services for free on certain channels (Food Network, Comedy, CNN, Golf Channel, A&E, HGTV, etc.).... I can see me leaving if directv don't get busy.....
I think the cable companies finally moved ahead of the satellite companies because of technology..... I don't see the satellite companies offering On Demand services or 14 HBO's, 20 Showtimes/TMC, and 12 Cinemax's (11.00 for these premium channels)...... Damn, I 'm gonna talk myself into again...... I better let it go.....
Originally posted by Bif
Yes, I agree--Digital cable rocks and rolls over blurry satellite picture!! Many more channels, too. Hmm, that's funny ... I dropped Comcast digital cable and went to Dish specifically because Comcast *dropped* a few channels that I (Fox Sports World) and my wife (Travel Channel) enjoyed.
I've noticed that Comcast digitial has more PPVs that satellite, and they offer more premium movie channels (East / West coast feeds of all HBOs / Showtimes / etc.). However, Dish has FSW, Travel Channel, out of market sports networks, distant NETs, and Superstations. I'll pick Dish's lineup.
All of those were available on Time Warner except the Superstations..... I wouldn't mind having those Superstations on Directv but that will never happen......
Link to my cable channels..... http://www.twcsc.com/PDF/lineups/columbia.pdf
Karl Foster
05-30-03, 12:17 PM
Until digital cable gets a good time-based dual-tuner integrated PVR, I'll stay with Directv. I can't imagine spending big bucks for tv service without it. YMMV.
That is quite a lineup! I just hope Lifetime Real Women never shows up on Dish! I already lose enough TV time to LMN and Lifetime.
Rick_EE
05-30-03, 12:27 PM
I got a call from TimeWarner. They offered 3 free months of digital cable.
I tried it, but kept Dish.
When the three months were up, they offered my a year at $33/month. I agreed. I kept dish for 2 more months.
They had all the channels we watched, plus a few that Dish did not have like PBSKids.
The PQ has been about the same, the guide 2-3 time as fast and it goes out more than a week. Never had info not available.
I just got the dual tuner DVR. A Scientific Atlanta 8100. It has name based, timer and manual recordings. Buffer so record from when you started watching the channel. PIP. Season Pass recordings. I am still playing with it.
No bugs so far.
All for $6/month over the regualar cost of a box. $12.95 total. No up front costs. I liked that. It let me try it w/o shelling out a couple hundred $$$.
So far, I am pretty happy.
BUT- when the promo runs out and the bill skyrockets, I probably will be back with dish. But by then I will know if I want to buy a PVR.
They also offer locals in HD. Plus the VOD mentioned before.
In my mind the only advantage Dish has is price.
Cyclone
05-30-03, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by karl_f
Until digital cable gets a good time-based dual-tuner integrated PVR, I'll stay with Directv. I can't imagine spending big bucks for tv service without it. YMMV.
I had this problem too. Have you tried password protecting these two channels and then "forget" the password?
Originally posted by Mike123abc
Just wait until the end of the year when digital cable ready TVs start to be sold. Then you will be able to add televisions without cable boxes. Then you will really start to see digital cable get the advantage. When you do not have to pay $$ for extra televisions it will make DBS more expensive in multiple television houses.
Uh, um, not quite. The reason for the "digital cable box" is to do the unscrambling. Each cable system has the freedom to scramble the signals as they wish. The 256QAM "digital cable tuners" will only receive UNscrambled signals. What cable company in their right mind would send out a quality (digital) signal that anybody could receive without their control. Yes, it is technically possible, but nobody is putting a gun to the heads of the cable companies to force them to send unencoded digital signals to your set connected to the cable...
Mike123abc
05-30-03, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by davhol
Uh, um, not quite. The reason for the "digital cable box" is to do the unscrambling. Each cable system has the freedom to scramble the signals as they wish. The 256QAM "digital cable tuners" will only receive UNscrambled signals. What cable company in their right mind would send out a quality (digital) signal that anybody could receive without their control. Yes, it is technically possible, but nobody is putting a gun to the heads of the cable companies to force them to send unencoded digital signals to your set connected to the cable...
Actually they will be able to descramble the signals. They have a "POD" interface that accepts a smartcard to be used to descramble the signal. That is why the agreement took so long, to do a simple 256QAM demodulation they would have had it done a long time ago. It was the decryption interface and the long haggling on the right to copy the content. The breakthrough came last year where a read only version license was developed. So, TVs can decode but do not have an output of unencrypted signal.
I looked into cable with my mother . sha has regular cable ( no cable box ) . they told her . it would cost $55 a month . she pays $45 now . The FCC does not see how cable is charging . then again , either bush . He thinks everyone has jobs . get rid of the FCC and bush .
pez2002
05-31-03, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by catman
I looked into cable with my mother . sha has regular cable ( no cable box ) . they told her . it would cost $55 a month . she pays $45 now . The FCC does not see how cable is charging . then again , either bush . He thinks everyone has jobs . get rid of the FCC and bush .
In all respects of your mother why dont you tell her to get Directv or Dish Network
And no i was not being smart Either
http://dishnetwork.com
http://directv.com
2 websites for her to look @ let us know if she decides to stick with cable or not
waydwolf
05-31-03, 11:13 PM
(Smorgasboard of things to reply to here...)
Originally posted by SAR
Tell cable to take a hike you will be better off with Directvin long run.
Both DirecTV and Dish Network are sorely lacking in the bandwidth department for SD locals as it is. They should have HD locals right about when we hold the Winter Olympics in Hell.
Originally posted by PSB
I just watched a soccer game on digital Cable! I will NEVER get digital cable, it SUCKS! I have worked in digital cable and satellite installation, and I am ashamed of the quality of picture that I was installing with digitaln cable, so I had to quit and follow my heart in SATELLITE!
If anything, I'm ashamed of the entire DBS industry's installation practices, and (purposeful) lack of education of its technicians in the most basic concepts of RF, cabling practice, and business ethics. $150 for a tripod in a house with 100% line of sight from EVERYWHERE in the yard at GROUND LEVEL??? A $300+ Spaun multiswitch for a SINGLE SET install? Over 75% of installations done by others which I've repaired UNGROUNDED? Umpteen levels of subcontracting and charge skimming leaving the final man impoverished and with no choice but to engage in predatory "upselling"? Cheap tin fittings covered in silicone sealant instead of modern compression fittings to save the technician $2?
Not one cable contractor I know EVER engages in ANYTHING remotely as shady as some of the satellite techs I've worked with.
Originally posted by pez2002
Originally posted by Bif
Yes, I agree--Digital cable rocks and rolls over blurry satellite picture!! Many more channels, too.
Oh look we have the comcast Digital cable cheerleaders on the board :o If your picture was blurry you must have had it set up wrong becuease my picture is clear
The debate over which has a better picture, DTV or E*, has been going on forever with general consensus that E* has MPEG-2 compression pushed too high causing softer seeming pictures. I've witnessed it myself when I installed DTV for a man who was dropping E* and we had the two side by side. Comcast digital on the other hand DOES NOT tend to have a fuzzy picture. I know, I also have installed for hundreds of their customers as well.
Originally posted by davhol
Uh, um, not quite. The reason for the "digital cable box" is to do the unscrambling. Each cable system has the freedom to scramble the signals as they wish. The 256QAM "digital cable tuners" will only receive UNscrambled signals. What cable company in their right mind would send out a quality (digital) signal that anybody could receive without their control. Yes, it is technically possible, but nobody is putting a gun to the heads of the cable companies to force them to send unencoded digital signals to your set connected to the cable...
Nor should they be forced to send unencoded signals anywhere and when analog goes silent and the all digital transition occurs, BILLIONS of dollars bled out to piracy will be cut off for the time being. I do cable audits as one of my many many hats and deal with pirates constantly. Nothing makes me happier than uncovering the slime and shutting them off.
Originally posted by Mike123abc
Actually they will be able to descramble the signals. They have a "POD" interface that accepts a smartcard to be used to descramble the signal. That is why the agreement took so long, to do a simple 256QAM demodulation they would have had it done a long time ago. It was the decryption interface and the long haggling on the right to copy the content. The breakthrough came last year where a read only version license was developed. So, TVs can decode but do not have an output of unencrypted signal.
Actually, it was a matter of standards, not copy protection, as no manufacturer EVER was looking at anything like a DVB-ASI MPEG-2 interface on ANY consumer equipment. They ARE still looking at digital output via Firewire and it WILL happen as the FCC, US Copyright Office, and Congress are not likely to bend over and take it like the new guy in San Quentin from the MPAA. Fair use isn't dead yet by a longshot.
Sony's new Passage system bridges the long-standing divide between Scientific Atlanta and Motorola/General Insturment systems because normally, streams are WAY over-encrypted and there's only enough bandwidth for one type. By only encrypting a certain percentage of any given stream and broadcasting the rest unencrypted, both types can coexist on a system. Only a small percentage of encryption of an MPEG-2 stream renders it utterly useless.
Originally posted by catman
I looked into cable with my mother . sha has regular cable ( no cable box ) . they told her . it would cost $55 a month . she pays $45 now . The FCC does not see how cable is charging . then again , either bush . He thinks everyone has jobs . get rid of the FCC and bush .
Cable costs are based on costs of every business: manpower, energy, supplies including both physical like cable and fittings and content to deliver to you as you sit on your hind end like Playboy. They are also based on theft. When they look at piracy costs, they see millions that must be recouped somehow, usually by raising rates on honest paying folks. Then the content originators look at the figures and they too see a loss needing recouping and they up the price they charge the cable companies, and the DBS companies, to make up for it. That cost is then passed on to you and me as well.
Current estimates are that as many as three out of four DBS viewers are stealing service. Best guess is at least half. Do you think DTV and E* will continue bleeding red ink without noting the cost to their black ink and not pass it on to paying honest subs eventually?
Cable is far more honestly priced than DBS service and isn't a ticking time bomb waiting to go off in the mail in the form of a superexpanding nova of a bill. Cable increases are regular in line with economic conditions and not out of line with their costs of doing business nor the quality of service I receive.
DBS on the other hand goes out of its way to hide costs, such as nonstandard mounts not covered by basic installation when line of sight is bad, extra receivers and almost clockwork needs to upgrade to keep up with the changing service, escalating costs for anything beyond four receivers, complexity and difference of cabling practice from cable tv, unethical installers, and so forth.
Video On Demand for which there is ZERO bandwidth in DBS as well as ZERO return path for true live interactivity, giving the choice of hundreds of movies at once is another feather in cable's cap not to mention telephony which DBS also cannot do.
DBS *DOES* have one or two advantages, but I shouldn't have to spell them out if DTV and E* are the geniuses so many think they are. Suffice to say, they both ignore them studiously and continue their losing campaign of comparing the cable of 1983 with the satellite of 2003, largely because if it was an honest present day comparison, they'd get whomped like a whiny nerd rocker two minutes after taking the stage at a biker convention.
Richssat
05-31-03, 11:59 PM
*** If anything, I'm ashamed of the entire DBS industry's installation practices, and (purposeful) lack of education of its technicians in the most basic concepts of RF, cabling practice, and business ethics. $150 for a tripod in a house with 100% line of sight from EVERYWHERE in the yard at GROUND LEVEL??? A $300+ Spaun multiswitch for a SINGLE SET install? Over 75% of installations done by others which I've repaired UNGROUNDED? Umpteen levels of subcontracting and charge skimming leaving the final man impoverished and with no choice but to engage in predatory "upselling"? Cheap tin fittings covered in silicone sealant instead of modern compression fittings to save the technician $2?
*** Not one cable contractor I know EVER engages in ANYTHING remotely as shady as some of the satellite techs I've worked with.
Some major installation houses are paying as little as $25 for a single install. Quality of work is directly proportionate to money paid out.
Sad but true.
RR
Jacob S
06-01-03, 12:33 AM
It was just a matter of time.
wesmills
06-01-03, 08:12 AM
<i>Current estimates are that as many as three out of four DBS viewers are stealing service. Best guess is at least half.</i>
THREE OUT OF FOUR?!
If 75% of all DBS viewers are stealing service, I'm an idiot (for paying) and so are the satellite companies. I find this "fact" to be completely out of line, for two simple reasons:
First, it is harder than most average joes are prepared to admit to both bust into the smartcards, and then keep them active after ECMs. This is based solely off of reading websites dedicated to "testing" the service, and the hoops and holes that are posted for people to take to continue getting "free" television.
Second is the utter cost. Unencumbered cards are not cheap (just ask eBay), nor is the equipment to read and write smartcards. Then there's the time and effort invested in actually making the "test" setup work, which is not an insignificant amount. Compare this to the $34/month EchoStar charges on their base package, and the average technical ability of the general public, and 75% is absurd at best. Hell, compare it to the ease by which expanded basic cable can be had. If you want to stay perfectly legit, just call the cable company and order cable Internet service. No fuss, no muss, no cheating. You have a valid line from the ped to your house, which carries a signal they did not bother to trap out. In my area, AT&T (Comcast, excuse me) is even advertising the free expanded basic as a BENEFIT. They ENCOURAGE you to effectively "steal" the signal!
Steve Mehs
06-01-03, 11:19 AM
DirecTV estimates about 1 million pirates, Dish never really gave an estimate but it's probably under a million. I don't know if D*s 1M includes Canada or not.
juan ellitinez
06-01-03, 12:31 PM
If cable companies have to provide smart cards for these new built in tv digital convertor boxes,wouldn't they charge for them? I beleive they cost 50 bucks a card. Or are these smart cards going to be built into the box much like the next generation of dish receivers. If cable has to provide a smartcard I highly doubt additional receivers in a house will still be free.
Jasonbp
06-01-03, 01:35 PM
Digital cable around here is a joke.
Comcast (name change again!)- Doesn't offer digital cable here yet. Comcast doesn't even have a clue when it will be offered either.
Charter- Yeah its digital. Digital crap. Out of 173 channels (35 being PPV/Adult channels) 28, 28 are digital! Its beyond bad with them. If something goes wrong, picture looks like crap, its always your TV. Never the line or something on there end. Its your TV.
Geronimo
06-01-03, 03:12 PM
Current estimates are that as many as three out of four DBS viewers are stealing service. Best guess is at least half. Do you think DTV and E* will continue bleeding red ink without noting the cost to their black ink and not pass it on to paying honest subs eventually?
Cable is far more honestly priced than DBS service and isn't a ticking time bomb waiting to go off in the mail in the form of a superexpanding nova of a bill. Cable increases are regular in line with economic conditions and not out of line with their costs of doing business nor the quality of service I receive.
I have never seen any estimate of DBS theft that was anywhere near that high.
Cable increases in most areas have far outpaced inflation and I cant even foolow what you are trying to say with the hyperbole about a superexpanding nova.
AS for telephony and VOD. Thety are nice ideas but most cable comapnies don't offer them. When they do I might coinsider it. But until then I weill get telephone from the phone company and use my PVR.
If cable works for you so be it. If DBS does more power to you.
Mike123abc
06-01-03, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by waydwolf
(Smorgasboard of things to reply to here...)
DBS *DOES* have one or two advantages, but I shouldn't have to spell them out if DTV and E* are the geniuses so many think they are. Suffice to say, they both ignore them studiously and continue their losing campaign of comparing the cable of 1983 with the satellite of 2003, largely because if it was an honest present day comparison, they'd get whomped like a whiny nerd rocker two minutes after taking the stage at a biker convention.
DBS's biggest advantage is that they can put a satellite up in the sky and reach the entire country. When they need to upgrade they launch another satellite (and force end users to buy new boxes as needed). Cable has to run a cable (fiber) everywhere.
I admit I wish I was on cable! Now for a DBS customer that is a big admission. I have my entire house cable system with RG-6 Quad cable. I have high quality amplifiers through out the house. (News flash doing this costs less than one of my Dish 6000 units costs). When I do a side by side comparison of DBS vs Cable, I would say Cable has higher resolution. Now it does show some grain/snow but it is very faint. But, you can also see things like the wrinkles on people's foreheads. Yes it is true, not everyone has gotten pumped full of Botox that DBS makes it look like.
The fine grain/snow is more like a faint noise in the dark areas of the picture. It is quite possible that it is the original source that had this in it and CABLE is preserving it where DBS simply compresses it away. Also there is definitely more color fidelity on Cable.
Note: This is analog cable NOT digital cable.
Now you might ask why I am on DBS and not my local cable company (and I ask that every time I pay my Dish bill). My local cable company has ZERO HDTV on it. The price factor has narrowed substantially. With the fact that you save $$ on cable modem when you have cable it makes my cable only $5/month more expensive. If I were to add another TV the savings would be eliminated.
I have grown tired of Discovery HDT since I have seen all the shows. They really need an HDTV package quick on Dish, it is the only reason I have not given up on HDTV and DBS... The hope that there will be a great package and a *lot* of new HDTV on Dish. If my local TW Cable co gets it first I will no longer sub to DBS unless TWC really raises the rate.
Yea Right ! Cables making it hard for me to do enough installs to keep up with the demand of people swapping over from digital cable to dbs................FACT! And not all installers are the same! I have done thousands of dbs installs and have yet to have ANY one call me back with a complaint, in fact I have to try my best not to leave my bosses # behind as the customers all want to call "him" (me). I leave my card with EVERY customer, and I have made many life long friends, I love digital cable : ) Thanks for sucking so bad, and the over inflated prices are the icing on the cake!
My mother likes cable because she can tape 1 show and watch teh other one . she has a VCR only . She does not want the tivo
I had digital cable from Comcast here in Atlanta, and had cable from GCTV, then MediaOne, then AT&T, THEN Comcast over nine years in that apartment, mind you.
The picture was so-so at best in most cases; the cable techs couldn't do a damn thing about it. The wiring needed to be redone in the walls, and the complex wasn't gonna pony up for it. I settled for the PQ and kept the cable modem running.
Now that I'm buying a house, I called Comcast to see about transferring my service (path of least resistance and cost as far as I could determine) in the midst of everything else.
"Oh, we don't serve that address. It's a brand new subdivision," the nasally-challenged phone stooge said.
"I know it's a new subdivision. What do I need to do to get service?"
"You need to have ten of your neighbors call up to enquire about service. THEN, we'll come out and do a site survey to see if it is possible to serve that subdivision..."
"Uh. No. I'm not about to do your job for you," I replied as I hung up.
My D* gets installed Thursday.
I can't believe the gall of Comcast - they complain about the penetration of satellite in Atlanta, and they pull stunts like this? Heck. No wonder they are losing out.
The only things I'll miss are the local radar channel, the local severe weather alerts on TWC, G4 & Style. (My kids are ticked off that I won't get the Encore pack for their WAM channel, but that I'm getting the sports pack instead...)
Ah, well....
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