Charlie Holding Aces for HDTV? (A Scott Commentary)

[Scott Greczkowski]

I must admit it, I at times have become upset at the way Charlie runs his company, but my anger usually turns to joy within a few weeks when Charlie makes an announcement to ease my anger.

Last week I was upset because DirecTV announced 3 new HD channels and announced a firm date for when those channels would be available while Dish Network on the other hand only announced HDNet and HDNet movies with no planned launch date other then "Later this summer"

Then in another exciting but bone headed move by Dish Network they mentioned you would need a new SuperDish to see the new HD Channels. After talking to a bunch of technical people (including a few Echostar employees) I learned that the SuperDish was just a pipe dream and would not work this summer as announced. (The 121 satellite has not be launched yet and may not make it to launch this year and the 105 satellite is in inclined orbit, its replacement is not set to launch until late next year.)

So because of these things I put up the challange to Charlie to put up or shut up, it looks like we are about to see Charlie put up.

I am hearing rumblings that we could hear Charlie announce his own HD package TONIGHT on the Charlie Chat and the channel offering might surprise you.

While nothing is official yet I am hearing that Charlie will announce the addition of a handful of new channels possibly including...

ESPN-HD (Yes he will bite the bullet and pay the fees, he has to this is HD's Golden Child)
Bravo-HD (For our Gold members I posted some information on this last week)
Hallmark-HD (Not to sure on this one but I have heard some rumblings about this one)
CineMax HD
And Surprise.... Starz HD!

Yes you read that correctly STARZ HD! It is my understanding that this new HD Channel will be announced today by Starz/Encore! What I find amazing by this news was just months ago Starz CEO John Sie was against HDTV.

This is from the February 24th CableWorld Magazine interview with John Sie.Sie hopes he can halt the current march toward HD in a similar fashion. Starz Encore isn't offering an HD product like competitors HBO or Showtime, and it won't until it can come up with an alternative. Sie thinks it will be more efficient and cost-effective. He believes high-resolution TV (DVD quality) is more than sufficient to the human eye. And don't even get him started on the aspect ratios of HD. He is a firm believer that the 4:3 ratio now used in NTSC delivery is better and easier on the eye than the 16:9 ratio now being used to deliver hi-def.
As many of you may already know Starz and Dish Network are very tight infact Starz CEO John Sie has been a guest on a past Charlie Chat show. The addition of Starz HD to Dish Networks lineup is only natural.

And Charlie also hold a few more aces in his hands, Charlie knows that DirecTV is out of space at the moment, when they add the new HDTV channels in July they would be almost out of space to add any additional HD channels. Charlie has some room at 110 and room also available at 61.5 and 148 to offer additional HD offerings.

While the Superdish is not a reality at the moment I would expect that sometime in the future the SuperDish will be a working item, that again opens a lot more space to more HD channels.

On July 1st Dish Network may not be the leader in HDTV but do not fear, Charlie is holding a few aces and will take back that title quickly.

I can only hope that tonight Charlie talks more about HDTV including some more announcements with some firm launch dates. I don't want to hear "later this Summer" I want an exact date. That's not asking to much is it? And any such announcement may keep Dish loyals form flocking to DirecTV for their HDTV fix.

Thats my take on things, lets hear yours!

[RAD]

Scott, I agree with you, Charlier needs to make a firm announcement, not 'coming soon to a Dish near you' type dates. But I have a feeling that he won't put up but will shut up and not say anything new past what he announced in the last Charlie Chart.

[rowdymon]

Yay!

[angiodan]

I hope Charlie really wows us tonight Scott with definite dates and pricing. This will be the only way he will prevent the 'churn' he talks about so much.

I'll be watching Game 7 tonight, but 1st intermission should be close to 9:00, and the big stuff is usually announced first thing in the show.

Go Ducks, and go HD! If I'm lucky, I'll be cheering for a couple of reasons tonight!!!

[dmodemd]

I think Charlie needs to put stuff up NOW. Just like Discovery HD, that came on very quickly, even with the need for more hardware. He put it up for a free preview for awhile until everyone went out and got the 8PSK box.

So why cant they put this stuff up as teasers TONIGHT and have people start paying 7/1? (esp for the DiscHD suck---subscrib--ers)

[Nick]

Charlie cannot give us an exact date if he doesn't actually have a date.

Way back last year, I was ready to add a second dish for 61.5 in anticipation of the 921. For me, Charlie's vague and unfullfilled promises have turned me off, and now, with this assinine superdish vaporware announcement, I'm sad to say he has soured me on wanting HD from Dish altogether.

If D* can commit to a date for their HD launch, why can't E* get its sh*t together and do the same? As far as the Charlie Chats go, they have become a joke. And we are a bunch of fools for tuning in and slavering over every little tidbit of misinformation. Ergen's folksy style is reminiscent of a snake-oil salesman. IMO, any credibility he may have had with me has turned to distrust.

Because of Dish's lies and unfulfilled promises, I am frustrated, PO'ed, angry and profoundly disappointed! Since I subbed to Dish 3 years ago, I have not even considered switching to D*, but now I am going to take a serious look.

[dinkster]

Scott, I also would like to hear Charlie make the announcements discussed in your post.

I would also like to hear some tangible info on the 921. This has been a while developing and I would like to know when this unit will be out.

[Nick]

If automakers adopted Dishnetwork's marketing strategy, they wouldn't sell many of this year's models because buyers would be waiting for all the nifty new features announced for next year's models

[Chris Freeland]

I would not be surprised to see some or all of the HDTV channels duplicated on both the side 148/61.5 side birds as well as 110, with the 110 channels moving to 105 in 04 once the new bird is launched and ready. I would not be surprised to see the SuperDish sold this summer for new HD sat systems even though it will not be needed until 04, this way 110 HDTV channels could be seamlessly relocated to 105 and current HDTV subs would not need to upgrade to the SuperDish for at least a year or two because HDTV channels will remain duplicated on the 148/61.5 birds for at least a year or two.

I also believe that some of the new locals announced for this year that are not going to a spotbeam will go to 110 conus with a SuperDish requirement until 105 and or 121 is ready for them. Just my crystal ball ;) .

[rjruby]

Starz just announced:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=238613&TICK=NCOR&STORY=/www/story/06-09-2003/0001961851&EDATE=Jun+9,+2003

[rjruby]

And more on Starz:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=238613&TICK=NCOR&STORY=/www/story/06-09-2003/0001961781&EDATE=Jun+9,+2003

[Scott Greczkowski]

This is from the press release....Sharper Movies HD will be marketed to multichannel providers separate and distinct from other Starz Encore pay TV movie services.It means that Starz HD can be part of a seperate HD package.

Heres to hoping tonight's Charlie Chat is a good one!

[jeffwtux]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
And Surprise.... Starz HD!

Yes you read that correctly STARZ HD! It is my understanding that this new HD Channel will be announced today by Starz/Encore! What I find amazing by this news was just months ago Starz CEO John Sie was against HDTV.

This is from the February 24th CableWorld Magazine interview with John Sie.
As many of you may already know Starz and Dish Network are very tight infact Starz CEO John Sie has been a guest on a past Charlie Chat show. The addition of Starz HD to Dish Networks lineup is only natural.



ScottG: Ok, I know you're busy, and I also know that you aren't on Charlie's speed dial or email buddy's list(yet), but could you hazard a guess as to why there isn't a similar package with Starz/Encore like there is with the HBO/Cinemax Value Pak? I personally like Starz better because I subscribe to a movie channel package for movies, and Starz has the most(new ones anyway). I also thougt that Dish was on better terms with Starz/Encore with easier contract renegotiations, and it stands to reasonsing, as Dish directly competes with Time Warner cable which is clearly the companies crown jewels.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Jeff I have no answers and at this I will not even venture to guess.

I have just contacted Charlie and I am hoping for a reply in a bit that may let us know what the future may hold.

I do agree that Starz is a better fit for Dish then on DirecTV. Starz and Dish have always seemed to have a close unique relationship with Dish (like making some channels for its SuperPack available to the Dish top 150 package.)

If you get a chance join us tonight for our Live Charlie Chat... Chat while you watch Charlie on TV, let hope he comments on this.

[BobMurdoch]

Originally posted by Nick
If automakers adopted Dishnetwork's marketing strategy, they wouldn't sell many of this year's models because buyers would be waiting for all the nifty new features announced for next year's models

Osborne Computer Syndrome as I call it. The recently passed CEO of the company once famously killed demand for his then current computer product by talking about the great features the NEXT generation's unit would have.. effectively killing the market for his then current generation of product.

C'Mon Charlie less vapor, more hard info (921 release date and pricing, etc.)

[Lee L]

Last week, right after the D* announcement, I emailed Charlie asking about E*'s plans and he emailed me back saying they would "add several HD channels in August, with HDNet, HD Net Movies and perhaps others (espn, etc)"

Hopefully we will find out some more on the Chat tonight. We have been dissapointed before though. I guess the one thing that IMO makes it more likely he will anbnounce something tonight is the D* announcement, it would be foolish to hold all their cards until the Tech Chat in July given that D* will have a package out by then. Maybe, we'll hear about a few channels with possibly othews to be added later and tune in for the next Tech Chat to see the 921, yada, yada, yada.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I do hope he mentions the plans tonight, it would be the perfect time to do it, next month is the tech chat which can help people get setup who need help. :D

[Raymond Simonian]

I have two HDTV"s. I just purchased one and have had the other one since I became a sub of Dish in Feb of 2002. I have been waiting for the 921 since then. I never purchased the 6000. I hope he makes a firm release date on the 921 or at least let us know when it will go into production. Also is there any other HD receiver to be introduced soon?

[Eyedox]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
It means that Starz HD can be part of a seperate HD package. I am confused ... I read the press release to mean that "Starz HD" and "Starz Hi Rez" would ONLY be available with the traditional subscription to the Starz/Encore package ... and that "Sharper Movies HD" would be an entry level tier for inclusion in the $10 HD tiers of most Cable and DBS operators .... like Discovery HD, ESPN-HD, HDNet, etc .... any clarification on that?

[kstevens]

Originally posted by Nick
Charlie cannot give us an exact date if he doesn't actually have a date.

Way back last year, I was ready to add a second dish for 61.5 in anticipation of the 921. For me, Charlie's vague and unfullfilled promises have turned me off, and now, with this assinine superdish vaporware announcement, I'm sad to say he has soured me on wanting HD from Dish altogether.

If D* can commit to a date for their HD launch, why can't E* get its sh*t together and do the same? As far as the Charlie Chats go, they have become a joke. And we are a bunch of fools for tuning in and slavering over every little tidbit of misinformation. Ergen's folksy style is reminiscent of a snake-oil salesman. IMO, any credibility he may have had with me has turned to distrust.

Because of Dish's lies and unfulfilled promises, I am frustrated, PO'ed, angry and profoundly disappointed! Since I subbed to Dish 3 years ago, I have not even considered switching to D*, but now I am going to take a serious look.

Whine, whine, whine......

[Cyclone]

Originally posted by BobMurdoch


Osborne Computer Syndrome as I call it. The recently passed CEO of the company once famously killed demand for his then current computer product by talking about the great features the NEXT generation's unit would have.. effectively killing the market for his then current generation of product.

C'Mon Charlie less vapor, more hard info (921 release date and pricing, etc.)

Big difference in business models here. Dish you pay month by month. Automobiles you purchase all at once. (financing become month to month). So you may wait a year for a new car, but you won't go without TV for a year. If leaked information about HD in months will likely incline you to sign up now for that service (or stay with it) so you'll be all set when it launches.

It benefits Charlie to leak info, where it killed off that computer business.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Eyedox
I am confused ... I read the press release to mean that "Starz HD" and "Starz Hi Rez" would ONLY be available with the traditional subscription to the Starz/Encore package ... and that "Sharper Movies HD" would be an entry level tier for inclusion in the $10 HD tiers of most Cable and DBS operators .... like Discovery HD, ESPN-HD, HDNet, etc .... any clarification on that?

Scott was mistaken here, you are correct, StarzHD will be part of Starz Super Pack, Sharper Movies HD will be in the DBS and cable HD packs with ESPN HD, HD Net etc. Starz Hi Res will also be part of the Starz Super Pack on cable systems that do not choose to use their bandwidth for the real deal.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Sorry about that the inital press release was not clear.

Don't expect Sharper Movies HD to show the blockbuster movies found on Starz, chances are the movies will be older movies which aired in the past on Starz.

[RAD]

Originally posted by RAD
Scott, I agree with you, Charlier needs to make a firm announcement, not 'coming soon to a Dish near you' type dates. But I have a feeling that he won't put up but will shut up and not say anything new past what he announced in the last Charlie Chart.

Hate to say it but looks like I was right.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
Sorry about that the inital press release was not clear.

Don't expect Sharper Movies HD to show the blockbuster movies found on Starz, chances are the movies will be older movies which aired in the past on Starz.

Thats all right, we all make a mistake now and then ;) .

I agree, I suspect you are correct on this one ;) .

I was not expecting a big announcement from Charlie tonight , however I do suspect we will have an official announcement within the next few weeks.

[Jacob S]

Charlie is not giving exact dates because he does not know exactly when they will be up and does not want to give a promise on an exact date just to have people say that he did not deliver on his promise. I am guessing that he has been giving an estimated guess on when he is hoping when the receivers come out, channels go up, etc.

If the SuperDish is not going to be release for a bit longer, and 121 satellite is not going to be launched for a while longer either, then are we going to see all of these local markets go up that were announced for 3rd and 4th quarter? Are all of these markets going to 110 spot beams instead of 121 or 105?

[krazy k]

Ok did not watch the chat so what happened. New channels or is dish net dropping the ball and becomeing a second runner up instead of a for runner in the industry.
ps
my 721 was not worth the money charlie!!!!!
Get with it!!~
krazy kent

[RAD]

Originally posted by Jacob S
Charlie is not giving exact dates because he does not know exactly when they will be up and does not want to give a promise on an exact date just to have people say that he did not deliver on his promise. I am guessing that he has been giving an estimated guess on when he is hoping when the receivers come out, channels go up, etc.

But why doesn't Charlie know when HDNet and HDMovies will be up? He's already said that they will be 'on this summer' and other threads say that SuperDish won't work/be available this summer so you have to assume that they'll use current transponder space, which people says there's space available. So what's the hold up on those two channels????

[Mike123abc]

Well they have transponder 26 cleared out on 61.5 according to lynsat.com , perhaps they are getting ready for something.

[Marcus S]

And on Charlie Chat last night, he offered nothing and promised it in great abundance.

[cws80us]

Looks like Charlie made you look like a fool again Scott. The Charlie Chat has come and gone, and not a word about any new HD offerings, nothing about the 921 or other new HD receivers, nothing about the Superdish, still no firm date on HDNet Movies and Sports, nothing. And he still has the gall to sit there and look into the camera and say "we plan on being the leader in HD". The guy's a bald face lier, and I'm just about fed up with his questionable business practices. When are you going to realize that he's just using both you and this site as tool to spread his propaganda?

[Cyclone]

Jeeze! Enough of a cynic aren't you?

Charlie never promised dates on the HD channels. They'll be announced when its time.

[P Smith]

Originally posted by Mike123abc
Well they have transponder 26 cleared out on 61.5 according to lynsat.com , perhaps they are getting ready for something.
Are you mean tpn16 ? Tpn26 is full of programms now.

[Mike123abc]

Originally posted by P Smith

Are you mean tpn16 ? Tpn26 is full of programms now.

Yeah lyngsat just updated today showing 16 now empty and 26 now full. I just hope they are moving stuff around to clear out for HDTV...

[Mike123abc]

Also see that they have cleared 4 transponders completely on 110. They are getting ready for something soon. 5, 7, 24,25 are empty on 110 according to lyngsat.com

[Ken_F]

They'll need to create quite a bit of space if they hope to carry existing channels like CBS-HD, Discovery HD, Showtime HD, HBO HD, and HDTV PPV, plus:

Hdnet
Hdnet Movies
InHD #1
InHD #2
ESPN-HD
Bravo-HD
Cinemax-HD
Starz-HD
Starz "Sharper Movies" HD

All the above HDTV channels are planned for launch by ~Christmas. DirecTV will be adding some of them in July, likely one or two more in September/October, and probably the remainder in early 2004 after a successful launch of DirecTV-7S. Now that FOX has just announced it will be launching of four regional sports networks in HDTV (likely 720p) this fall, you'd expect those to be carried on DirecTV at some point as well, though possibly not until late 2004 or 2005.

If Dish Network could somehow get double-powered transponders on 110 running 8PSK at 5/6 FEC (46.07Mbps), or 3/4 FEC with turbo coding (49.76Mbps) using a 26" dish, then should be able to fit three 1080i HD movie channels on a transponder with stat mux. If they could pull off turbo coding (24 msymbols/s) at 5/6 FEC (55.29Mbps), then combining three 1080i HD channels per transponder without stat mux would seem feasible, given the original bit rate of some HD channels is well under 19.4 (i.e. Starz HD will be 17.6Mbps). I don't know what kind of SNR is realistic with a 240w transponder and a 26" Superdish.

Ex: Starz HD + Starz "Sharper Movies" HD + Discovery = 17.6+17.6+19.4 = 54.6

Of course, there've been a lot of complaints on other forums about the impact that stat mux has had on DirecTV HDTV quality; people seem willing to switch providers to get a noticeably better picture, and once Firewire becomes more widespread, you'll see more people comparing bit rates. The movie channels already do a good bit high-pass filtering, and any more on top of that just makes for a softer picture.

I hope Dish recognizes that people spend all that money for HD to get quality over quantity, and that unlike SD, better quality HD can play a role in product differentiation. The HD enthusiast in me is against stat muxing for 24/7 HDTV video channels, but I definitely see the need to stat mux channels that are not 24/7, or anything close to it. It seems absurd to give CBS-HD (or CBS-E and CBS-W) feeds a full 19Mbps all day, when they only do HDTV 2-3 hours a day. The same goes for ESPN-HD initially, as well as any HDTV RSNs that Dish would eventually carry.

[rowdymon]

I don't think dish will carry inHD. I thougth that was reserved for certain cable systems only.

[Ken_F]

rowdy,

Nope, InHD is completely separate from the other InDemand services. It is being sold just like Hdnet. DirecTV is in preliminary negotations to carry it now.

[BobMurdoch]

Originally posted by cws80us
Looks like Charlie made you look like a fool again Scott. The Charlie Chat has come and gone, and not a word about any new HD offerings, nothing about the 921 or other new HD receivers, nothing about the Superdish, still no firm date on HDNet Movies and Sports, nothing. And he still has the gall to sit there and look into the camera and say "we plan on being the leader in HD". The guy's a bald face lier, and I'm just about fed up with his questionable business practices. When are you going to realize that he's just using both you and this site as tool to spread his propaganda?

As one of the chief E* pom pom wavers, even I'm becoming disillusioned as he keeps making like Lucy Van Pelt with Charlie Brown's football.

C'Mon Charlie, give us a LITTLE something to work with. I have to agree that this was the most USELESS chat you've had in years. That Mountain Climber segment was ALMOST as painful as the Tech Boys go TV shopping debacle. No, wait..... it WAS more painful than that.

[Jacob S]

Charlie did not give exact dates but him giving a time frame as had been done in the past should indicate that they are uncertain and may delay things. Thats what I had found to happen before because it seems like they are unsure.

Maybe they are waiting for the tech chat next month for announcement on SuperDish. They probably will not add HD with the space needed for the locals on 110. They would add HD to 61.5 though probably.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Ken_F
They'll need to create quite a bit of space if they hope to carry existing channels like CBS-HD, Discovery HD, Showtime HD, HBO HD, and HDTV PPV, plus:

Hdnet
Hdnet Movies
InHD #1
InHD #2
ESPN-HD
Bravo-HD
Cinemax-HD
Starz-HD
Starz "Sharper Movies" HD

All the above HDTV channels are planned for launch by ~Christmas. DirecTV will be adding some of them in July, likely one or two more in September/October, and probably the remainder in early 2004 after a successful launch of DirecTV-7S. Now that FOX has just announced it will be launching of four regional sports networks in HDTV (likely 720p) this fall, you'd expect those to be carried on DirecTV at some point as well, though possibly not until late 2004 or 2005.

If Dish Network could somehow get double-powered transponders on 110 running 8PSK at 5/6 FEC (46.07Mbps), or 3/4 FEC with turbo coding (49.76Mbps) using a 26" dish, then should be able to fit three 1080i HD movie channels on a transponder with stat mux. If they could pull off turbo coding (24 msymbols/s) at 5/6 FEC (55.29Mbps), then combining three 1080i HD channels per transponder without stat mux would seem feasible, given the original bit rate of some HD channels is well under 19.4 (i.e. Starz HD will be 17.6Mbps). I don't know what kind of SNR is realistic with a 240w transponder and a 26" Superdish.

Ex: Starz HD + Starz "Sharper Movies" HD + Discovery = 17.6+17.6+19.4 = 54.6

Of course, there've been a lot of complaints on other forums about the impact that stat mux has had on DirecTV HDTV quality; people seem willing to switch providers to get a noticeably better picture, and once Firewire becomes more widespread, you'll see more people comparing bit rates. The movie channels already do a good bit high-pass filtering, and any more on top of that just makes for a softer picture.

I hope Dish recognizes that people spend all that money for HD to get quality over quantity, and that unlike SD, better quality HD can play a role in product differentiation. The HD enthusiast in me is against stat muxing for 24/7 HDTV video channels, but I definitely see the need to stat mux channels that are not 24/7, or anything close to it. It seems absurd to give CBS-HD (or CBS-E and CBS-W) feeds a full 19Mbps all day, when they only do HDTV 2-3 hours a day. The same goes for ESPN-HD initially, as well as any HDTV RSNs that Dish would eventually carry.

Remember that many of those channels are not available to any provider yet and will not be until late this year or early next. Also it is likely that the HD channels that may go to 110 initially will likely move to 105 when a suitable satellite is in place their. If E* does a HD package in the July or Aug est time frame it will likely have the same 5 channels at intro that the D* HD package will have on July 1, with 4 110 TP's now clear at 110, this leaves enough room to do that plus duplicate HBOHD, ShowtimeHD, HD PPV and possibly both CBSHD channels too. With one TP clear on 61.5 using 8PSK should allow enough space to duplicate HD Net, HD Net Movies and possibly ESPN HD and their is plenty of room on 148. It does appear that E* is preparing the way for an HD package and duplication, just like I predicted just a few days ago .:)

[Mike Richardson]

I think that putting HD on the main orbital slots would kind of suck... up the bandwidth. If DISH won't even carry all the SD that they could then putting HD on the main slots just gives them excuse to say that they have no room for more SD channels (and, of course, no room for new local markets). At the maximum, maybe HD Info and PPV HD on the 110 dish, and that's it. (That would actually be smart - putting PPV HD on there, since that's a revenue stream)

Definately don't put CBS on a main slot - the side slots are so much more appropriate for that, being there's two different feeds of CBS, and two different side slots.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Mike Richardson
I think that putting HD on the main orbital slots would kind of suck... up the bandwidth. If DISH won't even carry all the SD that they could then putting HD on the main slots just gives them excuse to say that they have no room for more SD channels (and, of course, no room for new local markets). At the maximum, maybe HD Info and PPV HD on the 110 dish, and that's it. (That would actually be smart - putting PPV HD on there, since that's a revenue stream)

Definately don't put CBS on a main slot - the side slots are so much more appropriate for that, being there's two different feeds of CBS, and two different side slots.

I think if E* does place HD on 110 which I believe will happen, it will only be temporary until the new 105 satellite is ready, once it is ready the HD on 110 will move to 105 thus clearing the way for more SD on 110. :)

[Jacob S]

I dont think he will do that because of all of these other local channels he has to put up and the space needed for that.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Jacob S
I dont think he will do that because of all of these other local channels he has to put up and the space needed for that.

E* would not need to clear whole TP's for locals since they are QPSK modulated SD channels, they can be squeezed in anywhere. HD channels on the other hand need the TP's to be cleared of SD, these HD channels will be 8PSK modulated and unless I am mistaken 8PSK channels can not share TP's with QPSK, anyone who knows can correct me if I am wrong. These clearing of TP's is just one reason I believe that HD channels will go to 110 before ultimately switching to 105. By clearing those 4 TP's, this still leaves 20 TP's for AT150, DL, PPV's and the 6 extra premium, 3 Distant Net cities, the 8 or 9 PI channels and temporally including some new locals until they can be shifted to 105 or 121. Other then SI, we might not see any new SD channels until 105 and or 121 are up and operating, I am afraid TP's will likely be tight for a few months once again. HD and additional local markets seam to be the priority for both E* and D* at this time.

[Jacob S]

If these transponders will not be used for locals and 105/121 cannot be used for a while and no SuperDish coming out for a while then where is the space coming from to put up all of these additonal locals that Dish promised, that long list that they had for Q2, Q3, Q4?

Also even if these whole transponders were going to be used for locals, what about the spotbeams to use? Is there no more spotbeam space for all of these locals? If these whole transponders were to be used for locals then it would be offered nationally if you decided to travel with your dish so that would be a big advantage to those in the markets that get them added to those transponders. This would make me happy.

[Ken_F]

Jacob,

121 was originally slated for launch Q3, so some or all of their local plans for Q3 and Q4 could be based on that launch. Even without any HDTV at 110, I don't think they've have capacity for many (if any) of those Q3 locals, unless they can offload the national content off Echostar VIII and use many those 15 now-conus transponders as spot beams.

Does anyone know how many working transponders there are on the damaged Echostar VI? According to Lyngsat, they currently are using only 18 transponders (9 double powered) of capacity on that sat. If they have a few more working on E*VI, perhaps they plan to use those free transponders on E*VIII as spots (for locals), and use some additional conus transponders on E*VI. Alternatively, they could revert back to 120-130w on some of those E*VI conus beams and increase FEC.

[Ken_F]

E* would not need to clear whole TP's for locals since they are QPSK modulated SD channels, they can be squeezed in anywhere.They would need to clear out entire conus transponders on Echostar VIII if they want to light up additional spots to deliver locals. IIRC, E*VIII has 32 total transponders (far less than the 54 on DirecTV's spotbeam sats), which it can use for either spots or conus. Note this is incorrect--E*VIII has well in excess of 32 usable transponders.

Echostar has also cleared two transponders on E*VI. That could be for HDTV, or it could be to move conus feeds from E*VIII to E*VI, to free up yet more transponders on the former satellite for spot beams.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Ken_F
They would need to clear out entire conus transponders on Echostar VIII if they want to light up additional spots to deliver locals. IIRC, E*VIII has 32 total transponders (far less than the 54 on DirecTV's spotbeam sats), which it can use for either spots or conus.

Echostar has also cleared two transponders on E*VI. That could be for HDTV, or it could be to move conus feeds from E*VIII to E*VI, to free up yet more transponders on the former satellite for spot beams.

I do not understand, according to my understanding of the spotbeams E* currently uses 5 frequencies x 5 for 25 total spots which would use up 25 TP's, I was thinking that this bird had a total of 40 TP's, which leaves 15 for conus or 7 double powered with one spare. I was under the impression that the 15 conus TP's could not be converted to additional spotbeams, are you saying that they can be?

[Ken_F]

Chris,

When I made that post, I couldn't remember how many transponders were on E*VIII, so I just looked at the Dish web page. But now that you mention it, I do seem to recall 25 TPs for spots being mentioned on a chat, so I think your understanding is correct.

At Lyngsat, 22 spots are listed, plus 15 conus, of which 12 are in use. Why aren't they using the extra 3 spots for locals? Do you recall whether E*VIII has experienced any power issues?

[Jacob S]

How many channels can be put up on each transponder on a spotbeam?

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Ken_F
Chris,

When I made that post, I couldn't remember how many transponders were on E*VIII, so I just looked at the Dish web page. But now that you mention it, I do seem to recall 25 TPs for spots being mentioned on a chat, so I think your understanding is correct.

At Lyngsat, 22 spots are listed, plus 15 conus, of which 12 are in use. Why aren't they using the extra 3 spots for locals? Do you recall whether E*VIII has experienced any power issues?

If I remember correctly 1 of those spots go's to Alaska, if the AK locals are ever added that should take care of that one. One I believe is over PR, the 3rd one is real strange and seams like a waste, it is over Mexico.

[Mike123abc]

Echostar 8 has 5 freqencies (2-10 even) for spot beams and 16 double CONUS transponders. Now I believe they can do more CONUS at normal power, but only have 16 when then do double. This is why at 119 E7 can do it all 16+5spot = 21 the number of transponders Dish has on 119. On 110 they needed E5 and now E6 to do the other frequencies since they have 29 transponder frequencies.

Now, I speculate that they are using E6 at 110 rather than E5 because E6 has more power per transponder at double power than either E5 or E8. This extra power could be what is needed to run 8PSK at 5/6 FEC, so they can squeeze 3 channels per transponder in HDTV.

[P Smith]

Mike123abc,

How it possible, without sending ppl over there, change modulation type from QPSK to 8PSK ?

[Mike123abc]

Echostar can run the transponders either in QPSK or 8PSK mode. It is possible for them to change some transponders on 110 to 8PSK for HDTV. Dish has not announce what they are doing for HDTV.

[DenR]

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030702/25692_1.html

Looks like AMC-2 will be at 105 W by early August, The superdish may be usable in another six weeks.

[Mark Holtz]

The question then becomes.... what services will be offered from the 105 slot and from the 121 slot. My guess: HD services followed by additional local markets.

[DenR]

Another issues is the exact timing of the HDNet start. Even if they get AMC-2 in place by early August, will they be able to test and ship the superdish out the door for a "summer" start? If not, are they going to put them on 148/61.5 or 110 temporarily?

[Chris Freeland]

I am starting to think September 1 for a "ATHD" and SuperDish launch. It appears AMC2 will be up just in time for some of the 3rd and 4th Q launch of some of the new locals too. :) :us:

[DenR]

I always assumed that they would try to put together a Superdish, 921 PVR, and ATHD package together for a big launch. I just was not sure all the parts would be available at the same time. As far as I have heard, the 921 is still suppose to start production this month with reasonable availability in September. So this looks like it may actually happen.

[BobMurdoch]

Oh, please let it be ready for September's new season. I'm whittling down my 721's recorded shows right now in anticipation of trading it in (right now I only have new NYPD Blue shows I haven't seen yet. Other than Stargate SG-1 and Dead Like Me I haven't been recording anything other than Letterman or Trading Spaces so it would be relatively painless right now to switch in September)

[Raymond Simonian]

Bob M.

Would the 811 interest you? On the thread "Last dealer Charlie Chat and 921", it was mentioned that the 811 would be out on Sept 1. There was more speculation that the 921 will not be out until Thanksgiving. It seems the 811 is a replacement for the 6000. Hopefully the Tech Chat on 7/14/03 will answer all of the speculation.

[thescrub]

I'd be interested in some news about the 211. I have a Mits set and no 6000. Would love something inexpensive to get me through to the 921.

[dfergie]

get a panasonic dvd recorder, with the ram discs and record away at 480, better pq than pvr :) from your 6000.

[dfergie]

ie. dead like me and sg1, look better on ram disc on xp or fp from hd or the sci fi feed.

[Big Bob]

ie. dead like me and sg1, look better on ram disc on xp or fp from hd or the sci fi feed.

Award for the most abbreviations jammed into one sentence :)