Problems: New set up causing issue - help -

[Balestrom]

Due to the end of Sat 72.5, DirecTV came out and removed our locals 72.5 dish and upgraded one of our ancient receivers. However, now that they have done this, one our rooms is having issues with local channels, while the other rooms our not.

The issue is grey borders at the top and bottom of our local channels for one non-HD TV. Its all of our locals and only on one TV.

What I expected to get was: Black borders on top and bottom during HD programming, regular picture during non HD broadcasts. What we see is HD formatted programs working as expected, non HD programming gives us gray horizantal boxes on the top and bottom of the TV and black up and down borders on the left and right of the screen. In effect, the programming is in a box.

TV is a Sanyo Tube TV, obviously not HD, with no cropping function. I believe the receiver is an HR22 or its a HR21 with the HD turned off. I cannot crop with that receiver as it doesn't allow any HD set up on the receiver, those options are completely grayed out.

What I see on my other Televisions are fine. My downstairs TV is an HDTV with an HR21 and my local programming is fine. Only see left and right boxes during non HD programming on my locals. Our other TV, a Tube TV was upgraded with an HR20 when the removed the local 72.5 dish. It appears to be that they left HD on. With the HR20 I can chose to view HD or non HD programming from DirecTV national programs (as an example, I have two ch 360). This is different then the TV experiencing the boxes. The local programming airs with no problems at all.

I have called DirecTV. The gentleman that I spoke with had not heard of this before. He recommend that I do a complete reset of my receiver, stating that we may lose all of our recorded shows. We have not yet tried this because my wife is trying to watch some of the shows before the reset. The guy at DirecTV is not sure if this will work.

Before we wipe out all our recorded programming, has anybody had this problem or heard of it? Would a complete reset really work? Is there another work around?

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

[Stuart Sweet]

To me that sounds like something coming from the broadcast end... Is there another SD TV in the house or is this the only one?

[Balestrom]

To me that sounds like something coming from the broadcast end... Is there another SD TV in the house or is this the only one?

We have one SD in the bedroom. When they took down the dish, they exchanged that old receiver with an HR20. Locals in that room our fine. I believe they have HD turned on for that HR20 though, even though I do not have an HDTV in that room. I discuss that above.

But again, that one works fine.

[evan_s]

It sounds like you've got an R22, which is essentially a hr21 with the hd features disabled. Unfortunately I think what you are describing is expected behavior as the box is actually receiving a HD signal and then formatting it for SD output by adding the black bars on the top. The bars on the sides are actually part of the HD signal and the only way to get rid of them would be to change the settings that are grayed out and not accessible.

[veryoldschool]

:confused:
First: a "reset" doesn't wipe anything out. A "reset everything" is what does.
Second:
What it seems is happening would have to do with setting for the TV type and what color you have selected as the background for letterbox/pillarbox. Default is gray.
The mix of black & gray seems to be from the station for 4:3 programing on their HD channel [black] and the receiver being set to gray [the top & bottom].
With the TV type set to 4:3, format functions only work for HD, where if you set the TV type to 16:9, format functions only work for SD.

I think if you go into the setup menu and look at display & HDTV, you'll find some settings to change and find what you want.

[Stuart Sweet]

What might help is if you got the exact model numbers of the receivers in the two rooms. If one is an R22 and the other is an HR21, for example, then the HR21 might be picking up HD content and reformatting them for your SD TV, while the R22 would be picking up SD content "as is."

The other thing I'd try, if you haven't, is pushing the {FORMAT} button on the remote and cycling through the options to see if that makes a difference.

[STEVED21]

Try going to the system setup then go to the HDTV tab. Go to the TV Ratio and make sure it is set for standard 4:3.

[Balestrom]

Thanks for all your responses! It is appreciated.

The DirecTV CSR wants be to do a "reset everything."

I will call my wife over lunch as she is at home today and see if she can get me model information.

I am amost sure that the reciever is set to 4x3, but it will not let me crop. I will double check when I speak with my wife.

[veryoldschool]

Thanks for all your responses! It is appreciated.

The DirecTV CSR wants be to do a "reset everything." Don't do it

I will call my wife over lunch as she is at home today and see if she can get me model information.

I am amost sure that the reciever is set to 4x3, but it will not let me crop. I will double check when I speak with my wife.
I think you may have it set to 4:3 also, but I also think you're calling "non HD" what is an HD [channel] showing 4:3 programing [as this would explain the black & gray].
Make sure the default color is changed to black from gray.

[Balestrom]

Okay, just got off the phone with the wife.

The Tube TV with the problem of the bars has an R22-100 receiver. The tube TV without the problem is an H20-600.

On the R22-100 in the menu for HDTV there are three options: Video, resolution and ratio. Rather the ratio is set to 4:3 or 16:9, the video and resolution options are grayed out. It will not let me access them.

When the receiver is set to 4:3 here is what I get:

All national channels are fine, no boxes on the left and right, no boxes on the top and bottom.

All local channels however, have a complete box around them during Non HD programming (local news for example). The bars on the left and right are black, the bars on the top and bottom are gray.

When HD programming is presented by my local channels, I lose the boxes on the left and right and the boxes on the top and bottom (like viewing a widescreen movie) are black.

I then had my wife set the receiver to 16:9. When she did that here is what happened:

My national channels started showing gray bars on the left and right side.
My local channels lost the gray bar on the top and bottom of the screen. The black bars remained on the left and right for the non SD programming. The programing also appeared stretched on the locals.

Like I said before, my H20 in the bedroom is not experiencing any of these problems for that SD tube TV.

[veryoldschool]

The R22-100 receiver is an HD receiver that it limited to SD output. This may have some other effects that might be different than our HD [HR] versions.
What is the color set for the bars, under display?
Also are there any settings in your TV that have gray/black as options.

[Balestrom]

What is the color set for the bars, under display?

I am sorry, I am not sure I understand your question.

[veryoldschool]

I am sorry, I am not sure I understand your question.
Under setup/HDTV mine had "bar color", which is where I have three options from gray to black.

[Balestrom]

Under setup/HDTV mine had "bar color", which is where I have three options from gray to black.

In the set up when we select HDTV we only have one available option, Ratio. We can select between 4:3 and 16:9. We cannot get into any of the other menu options for HDTV. Video and Resolution are grayed out.

So if the option to change the bar color is there, we cannot get to it.

[veryoldschool]

In the set up when we select HDTV we only have one available option, Ratio. We can select between 4:3 and 16:9. We cannot get into any of the other menu options for HDTV. Video and Resolution are grayed out.

So if the option to change the bar color is there, we cannot get to it.
Ok, I don't have the R22 so didn't know what is limited.
You might move the H20 to this TV and then use the setup menu options to the same and see what it looks like.
The black bars on an HD channel [I'm guess these are your locals] that is 4:3 come from the broadcaster. The gray top & bottom, are either from the receiver [and with the R22 you don't seem to have an option for them] or are from your TV. A CRT TV doesn't like [last long] black bars, as this will cause "burn in". Gray is used to prevent this.
Your TV may have a setting for the color of the top & bottom bars.

[Balestrom]

I think you may have it set to 4:3 also, but I also think you're calling "non HD" what is an HD [channel] showing 4:3 programing [as this would explain the black & gray].

I don't understand this either. A channel that broadcasts in HD but is currently showing program in SD have bars on the left and right. I am getting bars also on the top and bottom for this one SD TV. My other SD TV with a different receiver does not have this problem.

[Balestrom]

Ok, I don't have the R22 so didn't know what is limited.
You might move the H20 to this TV and then use the setup menu options to the same and see what it looks like.
The black bars on an HD channel [I'm guess these are your locals] that is 4:3 come from the broadcaster. The gray top & bottom, are either from the receiver [and with the R22 you don't seem to have an option for them] or are from your TV. A CRT TV doesn't like [last long] black bars, as this will cause "burn in". Gray is used to prevent this.
Your TV may have a setting for the color of the top & bottom bars.

We can give that a try when we get home. The TV, though, is not CRT. It also has no settings for bars. I have looked through the menu options for that TV and there is nothing, no cropping, no bars nothing.

What is also wierd is that when I change to 16:9, I lose the top and bottom bars on my locals, but we keep the side bars. However, left and right gray bars suddenly appear on the national channels.

[veryoldschool]

I don't understand this either. A channel that broadcasts in HD but is currently showing program in SD have bars on the left and right. I am getting bars also on the top and bottom for this one SD TV. My other SD TV with a different receiver does not have this problem.
OK, this can get a bit complex.
The broadcaster is broadcasting in 16:9 HD [100%], but not all of their programing is "HD", so they upconvert this to their HD resolution and add bars to the 4:3 image, thus making it 16:9.
Your R22 is limited to 480 output [no 720p/1080i], so this now downconverts the HD 16:9 to 480 16:9.
Now you've set your R22 to a 4:3 TV, so [if this was the HR22] it adds the top and bottom bars, but since you don't have an option, I don't know if the R22 is doing this.
Now your TV is "seeing" a 16:9 480 resolution signal. It "can be" adding the gray bars at the top and bottom.

"If I were you", I'd move the receivers around and play with each on your two SD TVs to see what the image looks like between the two receivers and the two TVs. This would tell me what is the receiver and what is the TV that is causing the bars and colors.
"Most of this" I can simulate here on my Sony 16:9 and my HR2x DVRs, since each [TV & DVR] have options that I can change to get the same results that you've posted.

[veryoldschool]

What is also wierd is that when I change to 16:9, I lose the top and bottom bars on my locals, but we keep the side bars. However, left and right gray bars suddenly appear on the national channels.
Believe it or not, this makes sense to me.
Your "national channels" are SD [4:3] so the R22 is adding the bars "thinking" you have a 16:9 TV.

"Regretfully" this is starting to sound like the R22 is outputting the gray bars [the default setting] and doesn't give you the option to change this to black.

The only thing left I can think of is to set the R22 back to a 4:3 TV and see if the remote format button will let you change the local programs to crop. If it works, this should remove the bars on the top and bottom and the 4:3 should fill the screen, but when it's 16:9 it will crop off the edges [center cut of the programing]

[Balestrom]

Believe it or not, this makes sense to me.
Your "national channels" are SD [4:3] so the R22 is adding the bars "thinking" you have a 16:9 TV.

"Regretfully" this is starting to sound like the R22 is outputting the gray bars [the default setting] and doesn't give you the option to change this to black.

Okay, so assuming for a moment this is the R22 that is at fault.

What really has me confused is my H20 in the other room. My locals show up fine. No bars at the top and bottom during SD programming. I need to verify, but I don't think there are any side bars either. It is like its knows what is comming in and is compensating for it. It does, however, provide the top and bottom bars for HD programming.

[RobertE]

Believe it or not, this makes sense to me.
Your "national channels" are SD [4:3] so the R22 is adding the bars "thinking" you have a 16:9 TV.

"Regretfully" this is starting to sound like the R22 is outputting the gray bars [the default setting] and doesn't give you the option to change this to black.

See here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=157100
and other threads in the SD DVR forum.

[veryoldschool]

Okay, so assuming for a moment this is the R22 that is at fault.

What really has me confused is my H20 in the other room. My locals show up fine. No bars at the top and bottom during SD programming. I need to verify, but I don't think there are any side bars either. It is like its knows what is comming in and is compensating for it. It does, however, provide the top and bottom bars for HD programming.
see my edit to my last post.
The H20 may be set to crop.

[veryoldschool]

See here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=157100
and other threads in the SD DVR forum.
Thanks, it's what I just learned here.
If the format option doesn't function, then there is no way [currently] to remove the gray bars.

[Balestrom]

Thank you all for your help! The answer sucks, but thank you.

Now I call DirecTV and demand a new box. They forced me down this road, by

A) providing me with a crap R22 as a replacement
B) forcing me to drop my 72.5 SAT which provided perfect locals for SD.

Now I get this unacceptable box on my locals, half gray and half black.

Furthermore, I have a bad feeling I am not going to win this fight.

[veryoldschool]

Thank you all for your help! The answer sucks, but thank you.

Now I call DirecTV and demand a new box. They forced me down this road, by

A) providing me with a crap R22 as a replacement
B) forcing me to drop my 72.5 SAT which provided perfect locals for SD.

Now I get this unacceptable box on my locals, half gray and half black.

Furthermore, I have a bad feeling I am not going to win this fight.
Take a step back before you go to battle [it should help].
The 72.5 SAT is going away, so you had to do something.
Leverage them to replace the R22 with an HD DVR. This will give you the missing options.
If you get the right person, work the right angle, you should be able to get this done either for free or offset with program credits [I would think].

[Balestrom]

Take a step back before you go to battle [it should help].
The 72.5 SAT is going away, so you had to do something.
Leverage them to replace the R22 with an HD DVR. This will give you the missing options.
If you get the right person, work the right angle, you should be able to get this done either for free or offset with program credits [I would think].

Sound advice.

I will work that route first.

If that doesn't work, I'd like to email them a picture of my screen to see if they think its acceptable viewing.

I thought I saw a post a while back that had listed a VP's email address for DirecTV or something along those lines. I was looking through the posts for that information, just in case I go no where. (My wife will kill me and DirecTV) if we cannot crop this picture.

[veryoldschool]

Sound advice.

I will work that route first.

If that doesn't work, I'd like to email them a picture of my screen to see if they think its acceptable viewing.

I thought I saw a post a while back that had listed a VP's email address for DirecTV or something along those lines. I was looking through the posts for that information, just in case I go no where. (My wife will kill me and DirecTV) if we cannot crop this picture.
See what happens and remember to play "CSR roulette" if the first doesn't work with you. It isn't worth fighting with someone that doesn't want to help. Say thank you and simply call back. You'd be surprised what the next [or one after that] will do for you.
If all attempts fail, send me a PM and I'll give you the email address.

[Balestrom]

Well, my next call to DirecTV was interesting.

Earlier in this thread I had explained that the CSR on Saturday wanted me to do a reset, "reset everything" option which would remove all recordings.

It was suggested in this thread that I do not want to do that. So I called to night and fibbed. They had read the notes completely regarding this issue and asked me if I had done this. I told I had and it didn't work. Based on what I am learning regarding the R22, I fully believe that it would not have worked.

Well, they are now asking be to reboot or reformat my hard drive. Which will also remove all recordings. To do this I need to hit the red reset button and when the screen says almost there I need to hit REC and the Down Arrow on the front pannel for 15 seconds. It will take two hours and will say, "reformat in progress."

The DirecTV CSR states that by doing this, the receiver will essentially be as if it were brand new, uncorrupted.

Any thoughts regarding this before I tell my wife she is going to lose all her shows?

[RobertE]

Thoughts?

Yep.

Your wife will lose all her shows and you will still have the gray bars.

[veryoldschool]

Thoughts?
Yes, this CSR is simply reading from the script, with zero comprehension of your issue.
If you were to do this, it completes in about 15 mins.
Next call please. :lol:

[Balestrom]

Well, I was told that rebooting the hard drive would take two hours, not 15 min. Is it more like 15?

Is there any way to get the R22 back to factory, before they mucked with it to block cropping and the like.

Or do I just do this, take the next step and hope they send me a new receiver that is not an R22?

[Balestrom]

Thoughts?
Yes, this CSR is simply reading from the script, with zero comprehension of your issue.
If you were to do this, it completes in about 15 mins.
Next call please. :lol:

What do you recommend at this point? I this was my second call now since Saturday and they are all reading my notes completely from each call.

[inkahauts]

Yeah. that does nothing.. If an option doesn;t exsit in a menu, resettign and wiping everythgin out doesn;t help.. I might call back and say.. Well, I followed your direcitons, and now my unit is making a clanking noise, and STILL has these bars..

Clanking noises always get a replacement... :D

Ok, i haven't skimmed over the thread and it appears its all a settings issue, and that the r22 doesn't have the proper setting to get around your issue.. Curious, have you tried swapping the unit that works on the other tube tv with the one that doesn't on the tube thats having the issues? I'm guessing you issue would swap to the other tv.. I'd say you need to get another HD unit instead of the r22 so you have the proper settings.. As VOS says.. Keep calling, and tell your wife she needs to watch all her recordings quickly before your new unit gets here... :D

[veryoldschool]

back to Factory [defaults] is the menu reset everything under setup.
It won't do what you want, since this is the software and not a "defect" [though it is a problem].
The only way for this receiver to output what you want, would be "if" the format button would work and you set the TV type to 4:3 and then select "crop" as the format.
I've sent a message off through channels to see if there could be a software update/improvement for this [assuming the format function doesn't work now].
This receiver isn't "defective" by DirecTV standards, so this would need to be replaced with the "fully functional" HD model. This would need to be done by escalating this issue to at least the customer advocate group.

[RobertE]

There isn't anything you can do from your end to get rid of the grey bars.
A replacement R22 is going to do the same thing.

The only things that will fix it is:
Replace with an HD box (H/HR)
or
DirecTv unlocks the rest of the settings on the box. IMHO, having those settings locked out is stupid and makes no sense.

[veryoldschool]

DirecTv unlocks the rest of the settings on the box. IMHO, having those settings locked out is stupid and makes no sense.
Now that I know of this, I agree 100% and have suggested this to be changed, at least for the format/crop function.

[Balestrom]

back to Factory [defaults] is the menu reset everything under setup.
It won't do what you want, since this is the software and not a "defect" [though it is a problem].
The only way for this receiver to output what you want, would be "if" the format button would work and you set the TV type to 4:3 and then select "crop" as the format.
I've sent a message off through channels to see if there could be a software update/improvement for this [assuming the format function doesn't work now].
This receiver isn't "defective" by DirecTV standards, so this would need to be replaced with the "fully functional" HD model. This would need to be done by escalating this issue to at least the customer advocate group.

Thanks everybody. I will hold off at this point from doing the reboot. Let me know if you come up with anything veryoldschool.

Otherwise, I got back to them tomorrow night and let them know I still have problems.

How do I get a hold of the customer advocacy group?

[veryoldschool]

Thanks everybody. I will hold off at this point from doing the reboot. Let me know if you come up with anything veryoldschool.

Otherwise, I got back to them tomorrow night and let them know I still have problems.

How do I get a hold of the customer advocacy group?
Check your PMs :)

[Balestrom]

Okay, so for the first time in all my years as a DirecTV customer I am so upset with the company that I am not even sure I want there service any more.

I emailed Ellen Filipiak's office and one of the customer advocacy rep's called me back.

Long and short, she was rude, to the point and didn't believe that this was a DirecTV problem. Her response is that some people find those bars acceptable, some don't and that its a matter of opinion. Also, they are doing there job by providing us a signal and that is there definition of a working receiver, regardless of the fact that all the cropping functions are tunred off.

When I found that not acceptable she wouldn't budge, would provide any other escalation point... she was the escalation point. She honestly didn't care. Not only was it in her voice, but in everything that she said.

Furthermore, if I wanted to select any reciever to replace the R22 I'd need to pay for it at half price. Now, I understand that half price is a deal... but it simply means that I have to pay 100.00 to fix a problem created by that company.

Does anybody know if an existing non HD DVR by DirecTV that will receive a signal from the slimline 5 and has cropping functions? If I have to pay for their problem, I'd prefer to only pay for a non HD receiver at half price.

You know, as much as it makes me want to vomit, Dish for the first time is actually looking like an option. Man, I'd hate to go that route!

Any other recommendations at this point?

[veryoldschool]

The R22 is the only SD DVR that has MPEG-4, which is what you need for the channels that moved off 72.5.
Call customer retention [get transferred to them] and see what price/discount/programing credits they can offer for the HD DVR.

[dubber deux]

It seems like it would simply make more sense if D* would stop supplying SD boxes to customers and only use HD boxes. Firstly it would simplify and streamline the range of variation in how equipment operates which would help the CSRs to do their job better and secondly if would help to solve problems like the one the OP is having.

I have a SD box (D12) and if you are watching certain channels like Discovery, Animal Planet, and a number of others that I do watch often it shows those channels in 16:9 format whether you like it or not, even on your 4:3 tube set. There is no provision for changing it. If you happen to have a smaller tv set you are going to be viewing a very tiny picture. Even my cheap 10$ (after coupon DTV converter box allows me to crop HD sources to fill my SD tube set.

Of course I understand the cost c onsiderations and the like so I don't mind tolerating it, but it would make more sense if they just stop offering the SD products now and charge a bit more for HD models to keep disatisfaction to a minimum.

To the OP,

sorry to hear about the rude response from the "customer advocate team" member. While my advocate was polite and respectful she wasn't really helpful at all as far as I can tell. I probably wasted my time and money on that call.

[veryoldschool]

dubber deux,
Before you throw DirecTV under the bus...
The SD Discovery, Animal Planet channels are the ones sending 16:9 over their SD channels. The D12 is a basic SD receiver, which is old enough to not even "think of" 16:9 programing.
New converter boxes are designed to receive 16:9 programing and display it on a 4:3 TV.
There may be several [many] things to throw DirecTV under the bus for, but you example doesn't seem to be a valid one.

The R22 is a "detuned" HR22, for those that don't want the HR22. All of the other SD DVRs don't have the MPEG-4 decoding.
"Hopefully" the R22 software can be tweaked to have the format function, but [again] this should really only be a problem for markets that have moved off the 72.5 to the MPEG-4 HD feeds and customers that only wanted SD.
There is no MPEG-4 non recording SD receiver, so your D12 gets replaced with a H20/21/23.

[dubber deux]

dubber deux,
Before you throw DirecTV under the bus...
The D12 is a basic SD receiver, which is old enough to not even "think of" 16:9 programing.


I DO understand that Discovery Networks is sending their programming in 16:9 format and D* is just passing it through.

I'm not throwing D* under the bus on this one because, I am getting a very good price a couple of decent discounts for the year) on my programming. Nothing is free, and this small short coming is not unreasonable to deal with.

If I am correct this receiver, the D 12, was just issued last year or so, you would think that whomever made it would have considered the zoom and crop function should be included. It is a software feature that is fairly simple and cheap to produce perhaps it is there but not activated ? IDN. My Zenith DTT CECB 900 is a almost two years old and it has a cropping sizing function, and it was only 10 bucks.

[Balestrom]

The R22 is the only SD DVR that has MPEG-4, which is what you need for the channels that moved off 72.5.
Call customer retention [get transferred to them] and see what price/discount/programing credits they can offer for the HD DVR.

As stated in my earlier post, they are offering me 100 dollars off a HD DVR, which means a 100 dollars out of my pocket.

Now to some, 100 dollars is chump change. I watch every dollar that comes in and goes out. Can I afford if needed, sure. Am I going to spend hundred dollars on something that is DirecTV's fault? NO!

I have begun by emailing all my local stations and letting them know that there SD picture will be going away... as stated by the rep I spoke too.

I am letting them know exactly what their viewers are in for. But I am not going to stop there.... I would like to make the R22 infamous. Is that reality, who the hell knows... but I am going to do what I can.

[dubber deux]

Balestrom:

This is what may KILL D*. Your problem can be EASILY solved by simply taking one of the thousands of refurbed HD DVRs (like the other one you have ) and giving it to you.
I CLEARLY understand your problem, you explained it simply and clearly. WHY is getting a resolution rep to understand that and satisy the customer so hard!!!!?!?!?!

Would you be willing to spend 15 bucks on shipping charges for the HD DVR? I think that would be a fair way to solve your issue. I do understand that D* doesn't promise any specific model of unit you basically get either a HD DVR or a SD DVR.

Note to D* you need to stop buying SD equipment NOW.

You can make up of some of the increased cost difference on increasing the volume of HD unit purchases.

[Balestrom]

Balestrom:

This is what may KILL D*. Your problem can be EASILY solved by simply taking one of the thousands of refurbed HD DVRs (like the other one you have ) and giving it to you.
I CLEARLY understand your problem, you explained it simply and clearly. WHY is getting a resolution rep to understand that and satisy the customer so hard!!!!?!?!?!

Would you be willing to spend 15 bucks on shipping charges for the HD DVR? I think that would be a fair way to solve your issue. I do understand that D* doesn't promise any specific model of unit you basically get either a HD DVR or a SD DVR.

Note to D* you need to stop buying SD equipment NOW.

You can make up of some of the increased cost difference on increasing the volume of HD unit purchases.

Thanks man. Just feels good to have people on your side when crap like this happens.

I gave all my local stations the email address to the customer Advocacy Group in case they had questions. :grin:
It made feel good anyways.

[dubber deux]

No problem.

I'm generally happy with my D* service but there are some things that could use improvement, NO product or service is faultless or perfect, and there is no reason not to chime in when you notice an issue that clearly needs attention.

There are too many folks on here that seem to automatically defend ANYTHING that D* does not matter how UNacceptable it is.

Makes me wonder if they work for them.