Expansion questions - SWM needed?

[eileen22]

I currently have a Zinwell 6x8 multiswitch in my basement, with all 8 feeds in use:

HR20-700 (HD DVR – 2 feeds)
HR10-250 (DirecTivo DVR – 2 feeds)
SAT-W60 (UltimateTV DVR – 2 feeds)
SAT-A55 – (Sony receiver – 1 feed)
SAT-A55 – (Sony receiver – 1 feed) guest room

5 LNB dish with 4 feeds coming into the basement and into the multiswitch.

I know some of this equipment is very old, the A55’s are from 1999 and the UTV is from 2001. But it all still works, and hasn’t been a problem until now. We only have one HD TV, which has the HR20. In addition to these locations, there are 3 other TV’s in the house connected to Comcast expanded basic cable, comes in via the basement, goes through an IBM Home Director box, and feeds to the wall jacks throughout the house. Up until now, I have not needed cable boxes at any of the TV locations that have just cable. I have an RF modulator hooked up to one of the A55’s, which transmits the satellite feed from that receiver to cable channel 122. I use an RF remote control to control the A55, which works at all 3 of the cable locations and enables those TV’s to view a satellite channel when desired.

Last week I received a call from Comcast telling me that in order to continue to receive most of the expanded basic cable channels (above ch. 30 I believe), I would have to now use a digital cable box or a DTA (digital transport adaptor) with each TV. This is because Comcast is moving to all digital signals on those channels. The DTA box is small – 5” x 4.5” x 1” – so it would not be a big deal to use these at the cable locations. However, I have done some research and I am pretty sure that the RF modulator would no longer work, thereby completely eliminating the ability to receive a satellite channel at the 3 cable TV’s. That is a dealbreaker for me, so I’m thinking that it is time to move to all satellite and get rid of cable.

With my current equipment, what would be the easiest way to expand my satellite feeds from 8 to 11? Would a SWM work for me? I think that the only current receiver that would work with the SWM is the HR20, correct? I would need to get 3 additional DTV receivers, which I guess are the D12’s. These also work with the SWM, correct? I read an old post from 2007 by Earl which discusses the SWM’s, but I am still a bit confused about the SWM-1 and SWM-2 designation, and also need to know if things have materially changed since that posting. Or, would I need to add another or a larger multiswitch? Is this an installation that I can do myself without having to get a DTV tech to come out?

Part of my desire to keep my current setup was because I didn’t want to have cable or satellite boxes at the 3 TV locations that now are on cable, because of the locations themselves (one is in the kitchen), but I guess there is no way around that now.

Any feedback/suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated, especially if some of my assumptions here are incorrect. Unfortunately, after dealing with DirecTV customer service over the years, I have little confidence that I will be able to call them and explain this setup and receive accurate information.

Thanks!

Eileen

[Mertzen]

I

With my current equipment, what would be the easiest way to expand my satellite feeds from 8 to 11?


In your case I think SWM makes little sense.

Two options:

-4 power passing splitters and add another WB68. About $30-40 on ebay for all.
-Swap out the WB68 for a WB616. This is a powered switch and will be a bit more expensive.

Both will give 16 HD capabale outputs.

You could put a SWM8 switch in parallel with the WB68 if you ever need single line capabilities.

[eileen22]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a power passing splitter? Is this something that will take the 4 incoming sat feeds and split them in two, so that four lines can go to each multiswitch?

Thanks.

[Mertzen]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a power passing splitter? Is this something that will take the 4 incoming sat feeds and split them in two, so that four lines can go to each multiswitch?

Thanks.

You're exactly right.

You do have to make sure that each line you split then goes to the same port on both the switches.

No endorsement but something like this:
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=313

[eileen22]

I just realized that I already have another WB68, new in the box, in the basement. I vaguely remember one of our installation nightmares when we had the 5 LNB dish installed, the first tech came and couldn't finish the install and left the multiswitch, then another tech came a few days later and brought another multiswitch and told me to just keep the other one. So all I would need is the four splitters and the new receivers, and a new piece of plywood to mount the second WB68 on, since I'm out of space.

So the SWM is designed for a situation where you only have one line coming off of your dish? In theory, I could get a SWM and split out one of my incoming sat feeds, and that would work for what I am wanting to do now, correct? It just makes more sense to use the second WB68 and splitters, and it will also give me more bandwidth for future expansion if needed (like if we decide to add DVRs with 2 feeds to some of the single locations).

BTW, do you know if my assumption is correct that my RF modulator would no longer work if I went the cable route and converted the 3 cable locations to digital cable? Thanks.

[dennisj00]

Just curious, if I read your layout correctly, you have 3 TVs with Cable. On those 3 you can receive the A55 through the cable / rf modulator on Ch. 122.

Would those not continue to work with the cable feed from Comcast disconnected and is there any programming you would then miss that's not on D*?

Not that I wouldn't can the cable anyway and add the D* receivers!

[Mertzen]

So the SWM is designed for a situation where you only have one line coming off of your dish?

More if you only have one line to the IRD.

If you have one line coming down you can use the SWMLNB. But you'd need all compatible IRDs.
If you have 4 lines you can use the SWM8 switch and use a combination of SWM and legacy IRDs

In theory, I could get a SWM and split out one of my incoming sat feeds, and that would work for what I am wanting to do now, correct?

Nope.

In your case run a SWM8 switch and WB68 if you need SWM capabilities.

[eileen22]

Just curious, if I read your layout correctly, you have 3 TVs with Cable. On those 3 you can receive the A55 through the cable / rf modulator on Ch. 122.

Would those not continue to work with the cable feed from Comcast disconnected and is there any programming you would then miss that's not on D*?

Not that I wouldn't can the cable anyway and add the D* receivers!

I am not sure if the RF modulator would continue to work on Ch. 122 after the digital converters were connected, but I suspect that they would not. I was hoping some techie on this forum would have the answer to that.:)

As for the programming, the only thing that we would lose is the programming on the local Comcast sports channel for Phillies, Flyers and Sixers games. Because of the fued between Comcast and DirecTV, I can't get Phillies games on satellite, even though I subscribe to the MLB package. Same with the Flyers and Versus, if the Flyers are on Versus, we are blacked out. This isn't a huge deal for our house, since the whole reason we got DirecTV in the first place was so I could get MLB and NFL games for my home teams, which isn't Philly.

[bobnielsen]

If the Comcast digital adapter allows for analog feedthrough, your modulator might work. You would need to ask Comcast (or go to a Comcast forum). Otherwise you might be able to add it back in with a splitter after the adapter.

[dennisj00]

Physically disconnect Comcast at the house entry point and see if your modulator still works. I doubt you'd find anyone at Comcast to answer that question!

[eileen22]

Physically disconnect Comcast at the house entry point and see if your modulator still works. I doubt you'd find anyone at Comcast to answer that question!

So you're saying that the modulator may still work on Ch. 122, even if the cable input to the house is disabled? Meaning that the modulator is not dependent on the cable signal at all? Or, if it doesn't work with the cable input disabled, then the modulator DOES depend on the cable signal. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, if the modulator still works, then it shouldn't matter if I hook up the DTA's, correct? If the modulator doesn't work w/o the cable signal, then it won't work after the DTA's? This is very confusing!

[jdspencer]

Since you have a second WB68 you might try cascading it off of 4 outputs of the first WB68. This will give you 12 usable connections. Some have said that cascading won't work, and if it doesn't for you then the 4 splitters solutions will.

[dennisj00]

So you're saying that the modulator may still work on Ch. 122, even if the cable input to the house is disabled? Meaning that the modulator is not dependent on the cable signal at all? Or, if it doesn't work with the cable input disabled, then the modulator DOES depend on the cable signal. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, if the modulator still works, then it shouldn't matter if I hook up the DTA's, correct? If the modulator doesn't work w/o the cable signal, then it won't work after the DTA's? This is very confusing!

It's been a while since I had cable but unless there's something other than a splitter that 'joins' your RF modulator into the cable, it should work. Basically analog cable is just a 'bunch' of carriers at each channel frequency all coexisting on the coax.

The DTA is just their version of a set top box (STB) that converts Digital to Analog (DTA). Your RF Modulator system probably won't work with the DTA.. . without a second coax connecting to the Analog side.

Try it. . .if you can find an easy place to disconnect - even on one TV. Let us know.

[texasbrit]

Since you have a second WB68 you might try cascading it off of 4 outputs of the first WB68. This will give you 12 usable connections. Some have said that cascading won't work, and if it doesn't for you then the 4 splitters solutions will.

Don't cascade them! Zinwell does not recommend cascading of WB68s, because they are unpowered, and this can cause problems powering the LNBs. So it works for some people, and works for others some of the time, but the problems are very difficult to diagnose. Just use the four splitters....

[carl6]

You are currently mixing the channel 122 signal onto the same cable that is feeding the comcast analog signal to your three tv locations, correct? If channel 122 is working now, it will probably continue to work just fine after the comcast conversion. Your analog modulation has nothing to do with the comcast conversion. So long as the channel 122 frequency on the coax is unused by comcast, it will work for your purpose. But, you would feed the analog signal directly to your TV, not to the comcast adapter. You would probably feed the tv from the comcast adapter using yellow composite video, or s-video.

If you want to go all satellite (and you could for somewhat less recurring cost than you have now with both satellite and cable), then adding the second WB68 in parallel to the first, and feeding independent receivers at those locations, should be easy to do.

SWM comes in 2 forms. One is an SWM LNB which has one coax from the dish, and is capable of feeding an absolute maximum of eight tuners (a DVR has 2 tuners). The other is an external SWM multiswitch which will work with the dish you currently have. The SWM output will allow a single coax feed to be split and sent to multiple locations/receivers, so if you added three SWM capable receivers at the three TV locations, then you could insert the SWM signal onto the existing coax (remove the comcast feed), and feed those three locations without having to run any additional coax. For standard definition, you would have to use a D12 receiver or R16 or R22 DVR. All HD receivers and DVRs are SWM compatible.

[eileen22]

You are currently mixing the channel 122 signal onto the same cable that is feeding the comcast analog signal to your three tv locations, correct? If channel 122 is working now, it will probably continue to work just fine after the comcast conversion. Your analog modulation has nothing to do with the comcast conversion. So long as the channel 122 frequency on the coax is unused by comcast, it will work for your purpose. But, you would feed the analog signal directly to your TV, not to the comcast adapter. You would probably feed the tv from the comcast adapter using yellow composite video, or s-video.

If you want to go all satellite (and you could for somewhat less recurring cost than you have now with both satellite and cable), then adding the second WB68 in parallel to the first, and feeding independent receivers at those locations, should be easy to do.

SWM comes in 2 forms. One is an SWM LNB which has one coax from the dish, and is capable of feeding an absolute maximum of eight tuners (a DVR has 2 tuners). The other is an external SWM multiswitch which will work with the dish you currently have. The SWM output will allow a single coax feed to be split and sent to multiple locations/receivers, so if you added three SWM capable receivers at the three TV locations, then you could insert the SWM signal onto the existing coax (remove the comcast feed), and feed those three locations without having to run any additional coax. For standard definition, you would have to use a D12 receiver or R16 or R22 DVR. All HD receivers and DVRs are SWM compatible.


I don't think the modulator will work, because the comcast adapters only have coax in and out jacks, no composite or s-video. So both the modulator and the adapter would require the same coax input. The adapters are very small little boxes.

So in the SWM multiswitch configuration that you describe, I would leave my existing WB68 as-is and add the SWM multiswitch? Where would I get the single coax sat feed to input to the SWM multiswitch? By splitting one of the inputs going into the WB68?

[carl6]

So in the SWM multiswitch configuration that you describe, I would leave my existing WB68 as-is and add the SWM multiswitch? Where would I get the single coax sat feed to input to the SWM multiswitch? By splitting one of the inputs going into the WB68?

No, the SWM requires FOUR inputs, same as the WB68. Put the SWM near the WB68. Split the four lines from the dish and feed both switches. Then run single coax from the output of the SWM to your new locations.

As to the comcast adapter, they are starting to use those around here also, but they still pass the first 30 analog channels and apparently convert the other channels from digital to analog. I don't know how those work though. If you get the chance to experiment, let us know what you find.

[eileen22]

Question re: the power passng splitters - does it make a difference how far away or long the coax cables are that are going from the splitters to the second WB68? My setup in the basement is such that I'm going to have to go with probably a minimum 3' cable for these. Should I expect to see any degradation in picture quality because of the addition of the splitters and second WB68, and does cable length make a difference? Also, what is the shortest length of cable that I can expect to find out there (for the first WB68)? Thanks.

[bobnielsen]

It's the total cable length that might be an issue, but adding 3' to what you have now should be negligible. Splitters will reduce the signal into each multiswitch by half, but there should be enough margin (if the dish is correctly aimed) that it will have minimal effect.

If you are looking for pre-made cables, Monoprice (http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10216) has assemblies from 1.5 to 100 ft. Of course, if you make your own, any length is possible. Compression connectors are recommended and Home Depot has a nice compression tool for ~$15.

[jdspencer]

Don't cascade them! Zinwell does not recommend cascading of WB68s, because they are unpowered, and this can cause problems powering the LNBs. So it works for some people, and works for others some of the time, but the problems are very difficult to diagnose. Just use the four splitters....I think I said something like that.:)