HR20-700 versus HR23-700

[Monty23]

I've had two HR20-700's since they came out in late summer of 2006 so I've gotten quite used to them. I recently added an HR23-700 replacing an old Tivo unit. After using the HR23 for about a month I've made several observations.

HR20-700:

The Good:

Faster and more responsive than the HR23
Has OTA connections built in
Same picture quality as HR23
RF remote has longer range than HR23

The Bad:

Louder hard drive
Smaller hard drive
Have to connect B-band converters
More keybounce with RF remote than HR23
Ugly silver color doesn't match other components

HR23-700

The Good:

Much quieter than HR20
Much larger hard drive
Same picture quality
B-band converters built in
Black color matches my other components
Much less keybounce with RF remote

The Bad:

RF remote has very short range
Slower responsiveness than HR20
No OTA connections

[dave29]

Sounds about right:)

[bobnielsen]

A minor point, but the B-Band converters aren't built-in. The HR23 has a wider bandwidth and doesn't require them.

[roadrunner1782]

I don't have a HR23 but I do have a HR22 (swm set up so no b-band anyways) and I have to agree with everything you said. Other than my HR20-700 being silver it is an amazing piece of equipment! I just got my HR20-700 a few weeks ago so I'm still getting used to it but I love it, although the hard drive is alot louder than the one in my HR22.

[rotohead]

The HR20's faster responsivness is the biggest asset next to PQ. I don't have a HR23 but compared to the HR21 it's a big difference. The day my HR20 dies will be a sad day.

[davring]

When either one of my HR20-700's fail, they will be repaired, at my expense and not traded in:)

[TheRatPatrol]

RF remote has very short range
Whats the range of the RF remote compared to the HR20?

Its been reported on here that the HR23 has better PQ then the HR20. Have you noticed it?

I just got my HR20-700 a few weeks ago
Where did you find an HR20-700 at?

[roadrunner1782]

Whats the range of the RF remote compared to the HR20?

Its been reported on here that the HR23 has better PQ then the HR20. Have you noticed it?


Where did you find an HR20-700 at?

Ebay. Not the best place to buy an owned receiver but I guess I got lucky.

[TheRatPatrol]

Ebay. Not the best place to buy an owned receiver but I guess I got lucky.
So you own it then, its not a lease? Was it new or used? Thanks

[roadrunner1782]

When either one of my HR20-700's fail, they will be repaired, at my expense and not traded in:)

Not meaning to sound stupid but is there someone that can actually repair these receivers if something goes awry? Someone other than D* I should say.

[Monty23]

I have been able to change channels with RF on my HR20's on the second floor of the house and certainly easily 35 feet away. The HR23 has a hard time doing 18 feet unless the remote is pointed at it. Both my HR20's and HR23 are behind closed glass doors of a cabinet.

Picture quality is exactly the same via HDMI hooked to the same 65" TV

[roadrunner1782]

So you own it then, its not a lease? Was it new or used? Thanks

Yes it's owned. It was used but it looked brand new when I took it out the box. I will suggest if you go the ebay route be very careful and call D* with the RID# and verify it is owned and has no previous balance on it. Actually call them more than once to be sure (I'm speaking from experience on that one!)

[bidger]

When either one of my HR20-700's fail, they will be repaired, at my expense and not traded in:)

As long as it's nothing more than a hard drive swap-out, I'm with you. If it's the tuners or something with the internal circuitry, I'll just have to hope the replacement is an HR20-700, which I know isn't likely.

[TheRatPatrol]

Not meaning to sound stupid but is there someone that can actually repair these receivers if something goes awry? Someone other than D* I should say.
These guys (http://www.ccscorporation.net/) can, they fixed my Ultimate TV DVR when the tuners went bad.

[roadrunner1782]

These guys (http://www.ccscorporation.net/) can, they fixed my Ultimate TV DVR when the tuners went bad.

It says on their price page they don't repair several receivers, one of which is the H20. I know we are talking about a HR20 here but I wonder if they would fix one.

[CCarncross]

D* doesnt even repair the H20's....especially if it was a -600 model

[Monty23]

In unit responsiveness I've found that the HR20 is the fastest, followed by the HR23 and the slowest being the HR22. I've never owned an HR21 but I've heard it's about the same as the HR20.

[TheRatPatrol]

In unit responsiveness I've found that the HR20 is the fastest, followed by the HR23 and the slowest being the HR22. I've never owned an HR21 but I've heard it's about the same as the HR20.
Interesting that the newer model from the same company wouldn't have a faster processor in it.

[jdspencer]

Processor speed is just a part of the equation. The support chips could be part of the problem with responsiveness.

[Rich]

Not meaning to sound stupid but is there someone that can actually repair these receivers if something goes awry? Someone other than D* I should say.

You don't really believe that the contractor that D* uses to "refurbish" their returned HRs actually fixes them, do you?

Rich

[Rich]

Yes it's owned. It was used but it looked brand new when I took it out the box. I will suggest if you go the ebay route be very careful and call D* with the RID# and verify it is owned and has no previous balance on it. Actually call them more than once to be sure (I'm speaking from experience on that one!)

Easiest way to ensure that the HR is either owned or leased is to call the Access Card Team (ACT) and give them the RID #. And then be sure to have the ACT activate the unit when you get it. Make sure you pay thru PayPal and that the offering is insured by PayPal.

Rich

[Rich]

In unit responsiveness I've found that the HR20 is the fastest, followed by the HR23 and the slowest being the HR22. I've never owned an HR21 but I've heard it's about the same as the HR20.

No, it's about the same as the 21-700. The 20-700 is a lot faster. The wretched 22 I just swapped for a 23 was faster and more responsive to remote commands than any HR I have except for my four 20-700s.

Rich

[Rich]

Interesting that the newer model from the same company wouldn't have a faster processor in it.

The "First Look" at the 23 seemed to suggest it would be, but I believe it is just a 21-700 with a larger internal HDD. The 20-700s are much more responsive and are faster. Still the 23 is a 700 and can be considered one of the better HRs.

Rich

[Rich]

I just reread the first post on this thread and I've got four 20-700s that are silent. None of my 21-700s or my 23 or my 21-200 make any noise.

Rich

[Rich]

Ugly silver color doesn't match other components

Ugly!? I'm typing this in a room with four 20-700 silver HRs and all I see is four HRs that work very well and I'm very glad to have. Yeah, the piano black and black matte 21s, 22s and 23s are aesthetically pleasing, but if they don't work as well, and they don't, isn't that kinda like trying to shine...well, you know?

Rich

[rsblaski]

In unit responsiveness I've found that the HR20 is the fastest, followed by the HR23 and the slowest being the HR22. I've never owned an HR21 but I've heard it's about the same as the HR20.

I had a -21 go bad and I replaced it with a -22-100. The 21 was really slow. The 22, although not as fast as my -20, is still a lot faster than the 21 ever was. I would have gotten a 23 if I could have found one locally since my 21 crapped out right before Memorial Day weekend and I needed two dvrs for many hours of auto racing.

[Monty23]

I just reread the first post on this thread and I've got four 20-700s that are silent. None of my 21-700s or my 23 or my 21-200 make any noise.

Rich

I have one of my HR20's sitting atop a 5" thick pillow to keep it from vibrating my TV like a sounding board.

[Monty23]

Ugly!? I'm typing this in a room with four 20-700 silver HRs and all I see is four HRs that work very well and I'm very glad to have. Yeah, the piano black and black matte 21s, 22s and 23s are aesthetically pleasing, but if they don't work as well, and they don't, isn't that kinda like trying to shine...well, you know?

Rich

I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder :)
Anyway, almost all stereo equipment is black.

[Monty23]

http://www.jrslabs.com/Quiet-HR20.jpg

[roadrunner1782]

You don't really believe that the contractor that D* uses to "refurbish" their returned HRs actually fixes them, do you?

Rich

!rolling I guess not!

[Rich]

I have one of my HR20's sitting atop a 5" thick pillow to keep it from vibrating my TV like a sounding board.

Think you've got a problem with that. That sounds like the TiVos I used to have. Sounded like a herd of crickets in each room.

I think that the reason the HRs don't, normally, have sound issues is that the HDDs are secured so much better. In a TiVo, the HDDs were kinda just sitting there and if you added an extra HDD, you used a flimsy plastic bracket and that vibrated.

In any event, you shouldn't be hearing those noises or getting that vibration from the 20-700, that's an abnormal condition. All my eSATAs are on cushions that I made to take care of the vibrations, but all four of my 20-700s are sitting on glass or wood shelves on the same rack and none vibrate or make noise. The rack has no back, sides or front panels and I'd hear the vibration or noise if it were occurring.

Rich

[Rich]

I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder :)
Anyway, almost all stereo equipment is black.

After what we all went thru in '06 and '07, I'm just happy to have a bunch of HRs that work properly. All the rest of the A/V equipment on that rack is black and I gotta say that I wish the Panny plasma was in matte black instead of piano black. I don't get any glare from the TV itself, but the piano black of the frame is kinda glarey (new word).

Rich

[Rich]

http://www.jrslabs.com/Quiet-HR20.jpg

Oh, My, God! How can you put up with that? My wife would go berserk. I wouldn't give up on the 20-700. PM me if you want some suggestions.

Rich

[Rich]

!rolling I guess not!

Good guess!

Rich

[Monty23]

Oh, My, God! How can you put up with that? My wife would go berserk. I wouldn't give up on the 20-700. PM me if you want some suggestions.

Rich

I've got (2) HR20's and (1) HR23. This HR20 really vibrates and when sitting on a wooden TV or shelf it will make a very audible hum. The other HR20 is not quite as bad but I have than one sitting on 1" of foam. I don't want to call D* to replace it as I like them and they work good otherwise and I need the OTA connections. My HR23 is dead silent.

[edpowers]

I haven't been following the HR23 release at all, but I remember reading the first-look. Wasn't there something about improved picture quality? Since I'm the owner of 4 HR20-700s, I guess I'm relieved that I don't need to worry about upgrading.

As for the loud hard drives and the ugly silver exterior of the HR20, I completely agree. Luckily I have a centralized media closet (dungeon) where I can hide them.

[CCarncross]

Everyone seems to keep quoting the 1st look about improved PQ, but that since has been pretty much proven to be not true. In fact the OP of that statement has written in several threads that it doesnt seem to be the case.

[Mike Bertelson]

I've had two HR20-700's since they came out in late summer of 2006 so I've gotten quite used to them. I recently added an HR23-700 replacing an old Tivo unit. After using the HR23 for about a month I've made several observations.

HR20-700:

The Good:

Faster and more responsive than the HR23
Has OTA connections built in
Same picture quality as HR23
RF remote has longer range than HR23

The Bad:

Louder hard drive
Smaller hard drive
Have to connect B-band converters
More keybounce with RF remote than HR23
Ugly silver color doesn't match other components

HR23-700

The Good:

Much quieter than HR20
Much larger hard drive
Same picture quality
B-band converters built in
Black color matches my other components
Much less keybounce with RF remote

The Bad:

RF remote has very short range
Slower responsiveness than HR20
No OTA connectionsActually, for clarity, the HR23 uses wide-band tuners and doesn't need the BBCs.

Mike

[edpowers]

Everyone seems to keep quoting the 1st look about improved PQ, but that since has been pretty much proven to be not true. In fact the OP of that statement has written in several threads that it doesnt seem to be the case.

Thanks for clarifying. As I said, I haven't been following the HR23 since that first look, so I was just looking for a confirmation on that. I apologize for not monitoring the other threads more carefully.

[jdspencer]

http://www.jrslabs.com/Quiet-HR20.jpgHow's the temperature with that set up?

[roadrunner1782]

How's the temperature with that set up?

I was wondering the same thing since my HR20-700 runs around 127 as opposed to my HR22-100 at 99!

[TomCat]

...I remember reading the first-look. Wasn't there something about improved picture quality?...There was, but the report was incorrect. That's the short answer. But the details are available as well:

As far as consumer-level equipment is concerned, when a signal is in the digital domain, PQ is locked, meaning it can't be altered, which means it can't get better or worse, which means it stays pristine and is exactly the same for all STBs/DVRs receiving it. This is quite different, a paradigm shift from what we could expect with analog equipment, where the signal was always degraded to some extent and all processing equipment degraded it further by one measure or another, giving rise to comparison of equipment as far as PQ is concerned becoming a real issue and a common pastime for techies and consumers alike.

But digital removes that issue completely. We can forget about having to compare digital PQ, because it is always the same (assuming the source is the same, of course). Signals transmitted as digital means that for the same source, digital video PQ is exactly the same for everyone unless acted on later by an analog process. The only analog processes in the DBS delivery chain or in a DBS DVR are the component out of the DVR, and processing that happens in the display itself.

Since component, an analog process, is a mature technology with a short distance to traverse within shielded cables, PQ will be virtually the same as HDMI (a digital process). That means that for HD signals the PQ that enters your display (regardless of whether component or HDMI) will be identical on any digital DVR that receives the DTV signal, including all flavors of the HR2x as well as the Tivo HR10-250.

99% of the contribution to what can make PQ change would be the quality of or the parameters of the display itself. So the only practical way to get better PQ is to get a better HD display. There are a lot of analog contributers to PQ degradation within the various brands of TVs and their different product lines and technologies (claims of "100% digital processing" nonwithstanding, ironically enough), so you can see some variance in quality between one set and another. But the source PQ, the starting line, is the same for everyone, and for every DVR/STB. Digital is the great equalizer.

New HR2x models and the successor to the HR10-250 will also have the same identical quality. There is no room for improvement such as there is when signals are delivered in the analog domain, so unlike the analog world, newer digital DVRs will never see an improvement in PQ. The only way to "improve" PQ for digital signals is to do that while they are still in the analog domain. IOW, before DTV ever even gets their hands on it.

Faster processors and other bells and whistles can't help. All parameters of a digital signal, such as resolution, luminance, chroma, gamma, etc. are fixed for as long as the signal is in the digital domain. Once signals are represented strictly as binary coefficients, the only way to alter them is to perform a mathematical operation on them. Since that can't occur in nature and does not occur in consumer-level DVRs/STBs, PQ remains the same for everyone.

There are a couple of ways to degrade digital signals in delivery, such as applying too much secondary compression, but those conditions again affect all subscribers, so all DVRs still have the exact same PQ for any given signal.

[Monty23]

How's the temperature with that set up?

It runs at 127 sitting on that soft pillow. Sure is quiet though :)

[edpowers]

There was, but the report was incorrect. That's the short answer. But the details are available as well:

As far as consumer-level equipment is concerned, when a signal is in the digital domain, PQ is locked, meaning it can't be altered, which means it can't get better or worse, which means it stays pristine and is exactly the same for all STBs/DVRs receiving it. This is quite different, a paradigm shift from what we could expect with analog equipment, where the signal was always degraded to some extent and all processing equipment degraded it further by one measure or another, giving rise to comparison of equipment as far as PQ is concerned becoming a real issue and a common pastime for techies and consumers alike.

But digital removes that issue completely. We can forget about having to compare digital PQ, because it is always the same (assuming the source is the same, of course). Signals transmitted as digital means that for the same source, digital video PQ is exactly the same for everyone unless acted on later by an analog process. The only analog processes in the DBS delivery chain or in a DBS DVR are the component out of the DVR, and processing that happens in the display itself.

Since component, an analog process, is a mature technology with a short distance to traverse within shielded cables, PQ will be virtually the same as HDMI (a digital process). That means that for HD signals the PQ that enters your display (regardless of whether component or HDMI) will be identical on any digital DVR that receives the DTV signal, including all flavors of the HR2x as well as the Tivo HR10-250.

99% of the contribution to what can make PQ change would be the quality of or the parameters of the display itself. So the only practical way to get better PQ is to get a better HD display. There are a lot of analog contributers to PQ degradation within the various brands of TVs and their different product lines and technologies (claims of "100% digital processing" nonwithstanding, ironically enough), so you can see some variance in quality between one set and another. But the source PQ, the starting line, is the same for everyone, and for every DVR/STB. Digital is the great equalizer.

New HR2x models and the successor to the HR10-250 will also have the same identical quality. There is no room for improvement such as there is when signals are delivered in the analog domain, so unlike the analog world, newer digital DVRs will never see an improvement in PQ. The only way to "improve" PQ for digital signals is to do that while they are still in the analog domain. IOW, before DTV ever even gets their hands on it.

Faster processors and other bells and whistles can't help. All parameters of a digital signal, such as resolution, luminance, chroma, gamma, etc. are fixed for as long as the signal is in the digital domain. Once signals are represented strictly as binary coefficients, the only way to alter them is to perform a mathematical operation on them. Since that can't occur in nature and does not occur in consumer-level DVRs/STBs, PQ remains the same for everyone.

There are a couple of ways to degrade digital signals in delivery, such as applying too much secondary compression, but those conditions again affect all subscribers, so all DVRs still have the exact same PQ for any given signal.

Thanks for the clarification. I now understand that the HR23 has the same PQ as the rest of the HRxx models.

I do think that a major assumption to the above explanation is that you have your HRxx set to native-only mode. If not, the HRxx will 'process' the picture in the digital domain to scale to your desired resolution. At that point, hardware/software definitely plays a role in PQ, even if the signal remains in the digital domain.

[HarleyD]

Funny, I was just noting this morning that the response time on my HR20-700 has gotten worse. I can punch in a whole channel number before the banner even pops up.

I remember chuckling to myself and thinking, 'this ought to make the TiVo fanboys happy. It gets more like a TiVo every day.' :)

[Rich]

I've got (2) HR20's and (1) HR23. This HR20 really vibrates and when sitting on a wooden TV or shelf it will make a very audible hum. The other HR20 is not quite as bad but I have than one sitting on 1" of foam. I don't want to call D* to replace it as I like them and they work good otherwise and I need the OTA connections. My HR23 is dead silent.

That "hum" might not be the HDD. And probably isn't.

Rich

[Rich]

I haven't been following the HR23 release at all, but I remember reading the first-look. Wasn't there something about improved picture quality? Since I'm the owner of 4 HR20-700s, I guess I'm relieved that I don't need to worry about upgrading.

As for the loud hard drives and the ugly silver exterior of the HR20, I completely agree. Luckily I have a centralized media closet (dungeon) where I can hide them.

Et tu, Ed? Don't give up on the 20-700s, the 23s are just 21-700s with a larger HDD, I think. I've never had an HR that I thought was superior to the 20-700s and I kinda doubt if we will see one in the future. But the noise? I don't get that at all. I did have one that hummed, but it got over it. I'm typing this in a room with four 20-700s that are just as quiet as my 21-700s, my 21-200 and my 23.

I got the same thing from the "First Look" at the 23. Couldn't wait to get one. Then I started reading posts from folks who know more than I do and they seemed to agree with the fact that the 23 was just a 21-700 with a few goodies added into it. Certainly performs just like a 21-700 or a 21-200.

Anybody that wants to know how I got rid of that hum, feel free to PM me.

Rich

[edpowers]

Et tu, Ed? Don't give up on the 20-700s, the 23s are just 21-700s with a larger HDD, I think. I've never had an HR that I thought was superior to the 20-700s and I kinda doubt if we will see one in the future. But the noise? I don't get that at all. I did have one that hummed, but it got over it. I'm typing this in a room with four 20-700s that are just as quiet as my 21-700s, my 21-200 and my 23.

I got the same thing from the "First Look" at the 23. Couldn't wait to get one. Then I started reading posts from folks who know more than I do and they seemed to agree with the fact that the 23 was just a 21-700 with a few goodies added into it. Certainly performs just like a 21-700 or a 21-200.

Anybody that wants to know how I got rid of that hum, feel free to PM me.

Rich

Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of replacing my HR20-700s. Especially now that I know the PQ is the same. I thought the PQ+ was a questionable finding in the first-look, so I'm relieved to find out that it was flat out incorrect.

As for the noise, my HR20s were a bit louder than my old Tivos. But I've never even attempted to limit the noise since they are all tucked away in a basement media closet. In fact, if I had it my way, they'd be super ugly rack mountable boxes with extra cooling fans.

[Rich]

Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of replacing my HR20-700s. Especially now that I know the PQ is the same. I thought the PQ+ was a questionable finding in the first-look, so I'm relieved to find out that it was flat out incorrect.

As for the noise, my HR20s were a bit louder than my old Tivos. But I've never even attempted to limit the noise since they are all tucked away in a basement media closet. In fact, if I had it my way, they'd be super ugly rack mountable boxes with extra cooling fans.

That's one of the reasons I was glad to finally put my last TiVo to sleep. Those things were so noisy they were driving me nutz (well, nuttier). I did put large HDDs in every TiVo I had and that did seem to increase the noise.

I'm really surprised to hear these complaints about the noise of the 20-700s. I did get some replacement 20-700s that had very noisy HDDs, but as soon as I started the boot up process and heard them, I got rid of them without activating them. Couldn't see any sense in activating them. I did put one 20-100 in my son's room and he woke me up in the middle of the night because of the noise. After that, I just sent the noisy ones right back. The noisy ones were a lot noisier than any TiVo I had.

Rich

[Monty23]

That "hum" might not be the HDD. And probably isn't.

Rich


Rich

If you lift up the HR20 while it is running it is completely silent but has a "buzzy" feeling to it. If you set it down on something like the top of a wooden TV or a wooden shelf the "buzz" will make the shelf or TV into a sounding board and is very annoying. Sitting on that pillow keeps it quiet. What else could it be except for the hard drive?? There aren't any other moving parts inside.

Monty

[TheRatPatrol]

Rich

If you lift up the HR20 while it is running it is completely silent but has a "buzzy" feeling to it. If you set it down on something like the top of a wooden TV or a wooden shelf the "buzz" will make the shelf or TV into a sounding board and is very annoying. Sitting on that pillow keeps it quiet. What else could it be except for the hard drive?? There aren't any other moving parts inside.

Monty
I would put 3 to 4 felt pads together under each "rubber leg" and see if its still quiet, that way it'll run much cooler. 127 is a little hot.

[TomCat]

... I do think that a major assumption to the above explanation is that you have your HRxx set to native-only mode. If not, the HRxx will 'process' the picture in the digital domain to scale to your desired resolution. At that point, hardware/software definitely plays a role in PQ, even if the signal remains in the digital domain.The point I was trying to make is that all DVRs start out with (receive and do not degrade) the same PQ, meaning all DVRs actually will have the capability of producing the same PQ, and that newer, better models will never improve on that. What you do to the signal afterwards such as rescaling is sort of after the fact.

And really, rescaling is pretty transparent, although that is indeed probably the one process in consumer equipment that can actually perform math operations on the signal while still in the digital domain. But that does not necessarily mean there is any degradation to PQ. 1080, 720, 768, and 480 are all multiples of 24, which is a pretty large whole number, so the math is actually surprisingly simple (there's just a lot of it to do in a very short time) and the potential for rounding errors is minimal.

If you either have native on or have your DVR matched to the native rez of your TV, there would be no degradation at all from the objective viewpoint of the viewer himself. There are no significant errors introduced into the mix from rescaling that can produce digital artifacts that can visibly degrade PQ.

If, on the other hand, you had a DVR set to 720p, for instance, and a 1080p TV, that would definitely reduce the perceived resolution of 1080i content, something certainly not recommended. But this would be a change in resolution, not commonly considered a change in PQ from a technical standpoint.

PQ is a somewhat more narrow topic than lay people sometimes understand. Some people even equate bad reception issues with reduced PQ, because "bad reception makes the 'picture quality' not as good as it would be otherwise", but this does not actually fall within the category of PQ, even though on the surface it might sound like it does. Neither do manipulations to resolution, although about half of what we watch is rescaled either in the display or in the DVR (all content if you have a 768p TV).

[Monty23]

I would put 3 to 4 felt pads together under each "rubber leg" and see if its still quiet, that way it'll run much cooler. 127 is a little hot.

Tried that two years ago , and sitting on that big wooden TV top it still made a loud hum...... so that's why the soft pillow. :)

[Rich]

I would put 3 to 4 felt pads together under each "rubber leg" and see if its still quiet, that way it'll run much cooler. 127 is a little hot.

I've been using insulation tape. The stuff that comes in rolls and has adhesive on one side. About a half inch thick and you can add layers. Works well on my large eSATAs. Mouse pads work well too.

127 degrees is a tad on the high side for a 20-700. If it got above 130 he'd be having problems. In one of Earl's posts he stated that 123-126 degrees was acceptable for a 20-700.

Rich

[Monty23]

I would put 3 to 4 felt pads together under each "rubber leg" and see if its still quiet, that way it'll run much cooler. 127 is a little hot.

I've been using insulation tape. The stuff that comes in rolls and has adhesive on one side. About a half inch thick and you can add layers. Works well on my large eSATAs. Mouse pads work well too.

127 degrees is a tad on the high side for a 20-700. If it got above 130 he'd be having problems. In one of Earl's posts he stated that 123-126 degrees was acceptable for a 20-700.

Rich

Ok..... you guys are probably right about running too hot. I'll try to use some of your suggestions and see if I can be cool AND quiet !! :)

[Monty23]

I just took a look at the temperature on my other HR20. It is located inside an open back stereo cabinet and is sitting on foam pads only under the feet. It too is running at 127 degrees.

[Rich]

Ok..... you guys are probably right about running too hot. I'll try to use some of your suggestions and see if I can be cool AND quiet !! :)

Please send a picture of the pillowless HR. My wife is still talking about that. Now she wants to know what else your wife has to put up with that allows you to do that. :lol:

Seriously, try the weather stripping that comes in flat rolls and is available at either Lowes or the Home Depot. Costs next to nothing and works really well. Just make sure it is at least a half inch thick and about an inch wide and only has adhesive on one size. You can double up on the thickness and get the HR about an inch or more above the TV and it won't stick to the TV. The more surface area that is exposed to open air, the cooler the HR will run.

Rich

[Rich]

I just took a look at the temperature on my other HR20. It is located inside an open back stereo cabinet and is sitting on foam pads only under the feet. It too is running at 127 degrees.

I just checked the 20-700 that I'm watching and it is sitting on top of another 20-700 separated by four BBC boxes (with the BBCs inside) and it is running at 122 degrees. Good temp for a 20-700.

Rich

[edpowers]

The point I was trying to make is that all DVRs start out with (receive and do not degrade) the same PQ, meaning all DVRs actually will have the capability of producing the same PQ, and that newer, better models will never improve on that. What you do to the signal afterwards such as rescaling is sort of after the fact.

In my opinion, "after the fact" is after the signal has left the DVR. Since scaling can occur before the signal has left the DVR, it means a better scaler has the ability to output a better picture if you choose to scale.



And really, rescaling is pretty transparent, although that is indeed probably the one process in consumer equipment that can actually perform math operations on the signal while still in the digital domain. But that does not necessarily mean there is any degradation to PQ. 1080, 720, 768, and 480 are all multiples of 24, which is a pretty large whole number, so the math is actually surprisingly simple (there's just a lot of it to do in a very short time) and the potential for rounding errors is minimal.

I completely disagree with this. Go tell this to the people in the HTPC, DVD, Blu-Ray or display forums over on avsforum. They all must be wasting their time! Going from 480 to 720 or 1080 is not transparent and can vary wildly based on the hardware/software performing the scaling. Even going from 720 to 1080 can have noticeable differences depending on the system.


If you either have native on or have your DVR matched to the native rez of your TV, there would be no degradation at all from the objective viewpoint of the viewer himself. There are no significant errors introduced into the mix from rescaling that can produce digital artifacts that can visibly degrade PQ.

Maybe most people won't notice a difference, depending on their display, viewing distance, and other factors ... but there are plenty of people who absolutely can notice a difference.


PQ is a somewhat more narrow topic than lay people sometimes understand. Some people even equate bad reception issues with reduced PQ, because "bad reception makes the 'picture quality' not as good as it would be otherwise", but this does not actually fall within the category of PQ, even though on the surface it might sound like it does. Neither do manipulations to resolution, although about half of what we watch is rescaled either in the display or in the DVR (all content if you have a 768p TV).

That's your opinion, not a fact. Many people would certainly equate internal scaling to Picture quality as it relates to a video device. For example, if a new HR-2x model implemented superior scaling processing compared to my Pioneer KRP-500M, I would consider locking the HR-2x to 1080i (and then allow my Pioneer to scale from 1080i to 1080p). But since I consider my Pioneer scaler to be superior, I set my HR-2x to native. That way, I get better PQ with 480i and 720p sources. The difference is obvious on my 50" Plasma and even more obvious on my 106" Front Projector.

[TheRatPatrol]

I've been using insulation tape. The stuff that comes in rolls and has adhesive on one side. About a half inch thick and you can add layers. Works well on my large eSATAs. Mouse pads work well too.

127 degrees is a tad on the high side for a 20-700. If it got above 130 he'd be having problems. In one of Earl's posts he stated that 123-126 degrees was acceptable for a 20-700.

Rich

I just took a look at the temperature on my other HR20. It is located inside an open back stereo cabinet and is sitting on foam pads only under the feet. It too is running at 127 degrees.

I just checked the 20-700 that I'm watching and it is sitting on top of another 20-700 separated by four BBC boxes (with the BBCs inside) and it is running at 122 degrees. Good temp for a 20-700.

Rich
Mines at a cool 118. Of course I do have a laptop cooler on top of it. :D

[roadrunner1782]

Mines at a cool 118. Of course I do have a laptop cooler on top of it. :D

I just ordered a laptop cooler for mine, is it better to put it on top or on the bottom?

[TheRatPatrol]

I just ordered a laptop cooler for mine, is it better to put it on top or on the bottom?
Well, thats still debatable on here. If you have an HR20-700, with the vents on the top, then the top is better. Not sure how others feel on the top vs bottom placement.

[Rich]

Well, thats still debatable on here. If you have an HR20-700, with the vents on the top, then the top is better. Not sure how others feel on the top vs bottom placement.

When you look at the box these things come in, nowhere does it say you might need additional cooling. Damn shame that folks have to go out and buy devices to cool the HRs down.

If they'd just put disclaimers somewhere on the boxes I wouldn't mind the various omissions. Had they printed "HDMI connections might not work on every TV" on the boxes, it would have made my life a bit simpler when I first bought my HRs.

Oh well,

Rich

[roadrunner1782]

When you look at the box these things come in, nowhere does it say you might need additional cooling. Damn shame that folks have to go out and buy devices to cool the HRs down.

If they'd just put disclaimers somewhere on the boxes I wouldn't mind the various omissions. Had they printed "HDMI connections might not work on every TV" on the boxes, it would have made my life a bit simpler when I first bought my HRs.

Oh well,

Rich

+1 My main concern with my HR20 is it stays at 127 degrees, and my HR22 never gets hotter than 97 degrees. Plus I bought the HR20 used on e-bay and don't know if it was taken care of. Plus it is a bit faster than the 22 and I want to make sure and take care of it since I enjoy it so much!

[Rich]

+1 My main concern with my HR20 is it stays at 127 degrees, and my HR22 never gets hotter than 97 degrees. Plus I bought the HR20 used on e-bay and don't know if it was taken care of. Plus it is a bit faster than the 22 and I want to make sure and take care of it since I enjoy it so much!

You're all right at 127 degrees. If it gets over 130, you should start to worry.

All the 21s run cooler than the 20-700s. The truly wonderful thing about the 21s (including the 22s and 23s) is that if you put an eSATA on them, the fan stops and you get a reading of 77 degrees. Then, the only way to tell how hot the thing is running is to quickly switch back to the internal. But as soon as the eSATA is removed the fan starts running and you never really get an accurate temperature reading.

Wonderful design.

Rich

[davring]

[QUOTE=roadrunner1782;2150726]+1 My main concern with my HR20 is it stays at 127 degrees, .


My two Hr20-700's run at 127 degrees +/- 2 degrees all the time, in fact they hardly change with the room temperature. One is just shy of 3 years old and the second is two and they have never had any heat related issues.

[Rich]

+1 My main concern with my HR20 is it stays at 127 degrees, .


My two Hr20-700's run at 127 degrees +/- 2 degrees all the time, in fact they hardly change with the room temperature. One is just shy of 3 years old and the second is two and they have never had any heat related issues.

I think it upsets people to see the 21 series run so much cooler than the 20-700s, but it is normal to see 99 degrees in the 21s and 120-127 in the 20-700s. They are different machines. Nothing to get excited about.

Rich

[tkrandall]

My first HR20 (July 2007) was a brand new HR20-100 (out of the installer's van) with a bad OTA tuner #2, so it went back. They sent a refurb HR20-700 that had bad HDMI output for audio. It went back. Due to the call dropping in the process of arranging to send that one back, two orders were placed for replacements and they both showed up. Both of those were -700s as well. One (the first of those that I tried) had a very tangible and audible buzz (it went back) from something vibrating inside. The last one I tried was quiet. I still have that unit today.

I just wish its built in OTA tuner was more robust, as I have marginally weak signal environment.

[tkrandall]

I think it upsets people to see the 21 series run so much cooler than the 20-700s, but it is normal to see 99 degrees in the 21s and 120-127 in the 20-700s. They are different machines. Nothing to get excited about.

Rich

Might it also be the location/placement of the thermometer in the units?

[edpowers]

I just wish its built in OTA tuner was more robust, as I have marginally weak signal environment.

I sympathize with you on that. I spent countless hours trying to get a realiable OTA signal on my HR20s (and HR10s) at my old house. Luckily my new house has a line of sight to the broadcast towers. Reading about other people's OTA problems brings back bad memories.

[Rich]

Might it also be the location/placement of the thermometer in the units?

It's on the hard drive.

Rich

[CCarncross]

I've always found the tuners to be robust, just poor at multipath. The only tuners I've found that really are any better that I have any personal experience with are the 5th gen LG tuners....maybe they are up to 6th or 7th gen now I don't know. Unfortunately many people just say, this tuner got it, this one doesnt, therefore its a crappy tuner, without ever qualifying it, or figuring out why its having issues when another tuner in their house might be fine. There are things you can do to make the D* OTA tuners perform better, like placement etc, but again, many people won't take any time at all to try to remedy it.

[tkrandall]

The Samsung DLP TV's tuner and my Zenith DTT900 tuner are much better at my weak signal and multipath environment. ( I live a mile or two on the "shadowed" side of a mountian/ridge between me and the Atlanta stations which are only 20-25 miles away.)

[CCarncross]

The Samsung DLP TV's tuner and my Zenith DTT900 tuner are much better at my weak signal and multipath environment. ( I live a mile or two on the "shadowed" side of a mountian/ridge between me and the Atlanta stations which are only 20-25 miles away.)

Both of which I believe are using the LG 5th gen or later tuners...I know for sure the Zenith it.

:)

[die02493]

Actually, while digital pictures aren't subject to many of the degradations that plague analog video (assuming they are digitally delivered to the TV as HDMI) there are things in set top box processing that can make a difference in picture quality.

Specifically essentially all digital video is delivered compressed by either MPEG2 compression or by H264 AVC (MPEG4), the latter being what is used for most all Ka band HD on DirecTV. And not all decompression engines that convert compressed video streams to HDMI uncompressed format are exactly equal and yield bit for bit the same video when fed the same compressed transport stream.

Some decompression chips do a better job... and some output (when the video path to the TV allows it) 10 bit or even 12 bit depth color though the actual compression is done into a compressed format with only 8 bits of resolution for most of the information. Processing of fast motion is another area where compression chips may vary one from another... as is behavior when there are errors in the data.

It is therefore possible that one DTV box *might* have a better decompression chip in it than another and that difference might be visible in the results to a critical observer even when both are hooked by HDMI to the same monitor and fed exactly the same transport stream.

And it is also possible that one box may have firmware that enables the higher performance modes of the HDMI interface (10 and 12 bit color depth and full colorspace) while another does not even though the TV supports the advanced modes in both cases.

What IS true is that the box analog circuit design and component and HDMI cable quality (provided it is good enough for essentially error free HDMI data transfer) don't make any difference at all since the box deterministicly decodes the incoming bits into output bits. But the quality of that processing CAN be different due to use of different versions of chips and algorithms and settings for the chip signal processing.

Whether this means the HR23 has a better decompression chip, or has firmware that enables better picture quality for that or other reasons is unknown to me... I do not have a HR23 at the moment and cannot try experiments to check. And even if the HR23 has the ability to provide a better image, it isn't clear to me whether DirecTV intends to enable these features and actually configure HR23s in the field to use these superior processing capabilities because that might drive many of the their pickier customers to demand HR23s which would cost them money for upgrades they would not otherwise have to make. (And it is also possible that some of the chips or circuit boards in older HR23s have bugs and will not even work in the advanced extra good picture modes - this is not uncommon in SOTA high tech hardware until the design is completely shaken out and the chips upgraded to the newest revs).

[tothefloor]

DTV just sent me an HR20 to replace my jumpy pictured 22k.

We will seee how it goes.