Dish Prices Would be lower IF...

[Tim Godsil]

I have been around long enough since Dish Came out, it used to be called Digital Sky Highway.

Well they went the way of the cellphone, so did Directv,

It all started out back when people where starting to pile themselves into credit card debt. See it used to be, you bought a cell phone, and it was yours, you could cancel service anytime you wanted to, and throw the phone away, well people didnt want to shell out booku amounts of money for a cell phone, they were quite expensive back then, so cell phone companies wised up and started giving them away, well people were drawn to this, however there was a catch! They didn't just hand you the phone and say "Have a nice day!" No!, you had to keep the phone for two years, in that two years time, you could not cancel your service or you had to pay out the wazoo to do so.

So then dish started to do the same thing, instead of buying a whole system for $200 and slapping it on the roof, you had to keep it for 18 months, or have a large ETF aka early termination fee.

Then they came out with the dvr, and they charged people to use it! What?

It does not cost dish anything after a dvr is made and sent to your door. Of course your service cover's satellite launches, install fees, etc, but why do you pay for the DVR? Because, when dish started to give away systems, they couldnt just give people a DVR, they would loose money, they couldnt raise service cost, or people would be upset, so they hatched a plan, charge people to use their DVR! So when you pay that DVR fee, it has nothing to with you DVR, it has to do with the cost of the DVR itself!

So why did service go up so much the next few years, dish added some channels, but this was skyrocketing!

Well dish wass loosing money, instead of people buying the system, they gave it away, so they had to include production costs, logistics, and installs, that wasnt cheap you know!

So today, even if you buy your system, you still have to pay for DVR, you still have to pay the same service costs everyone else did, which is not fair to the consumer's end of the stick.

So why didnt they nix DVR service for the paid customer's why didnt they charged them less? Because Directv, Dish, cell phone companies, and any contract based service company was founded upon, corporate greed.

[harsh]

Are you assuming that the costs of manufacturing a satellite receiver have stayed the same since the '90s?

The new model is for leasing and in the long run, it will allow DISH Network (and other companies) to do equipment upgrades more on their terms. Having the subscribers unwittingly hold you hostage because a number of them still have 3700s is not good business.

[Kent Taylor]

Sorry, I stopped reading at "loose".

[harsh]

Sorry, I stopped reading at "loose".I paused for quite a while on booku (beaucoup) but out of respect for a fellow poster making their first post, I muddled on.

[Stewart Vernon]

At the risk of getting an answer... I'm forced to ask...

What's the topic here?

[Tim Godsil]

Are you assuming that the costs of manufacturing a satellite receiver have stayed the same since the '90s?

The new model is for leasing and in the long run, it will allow DISH Network (and other companies) to do equipment upgrades more on their terms. Having the subscribers unwittingly hold you hostage because a number of them still have 3700s is not good business.

the costs have gone down

back in the mid 90's a sony directv box was over 500 dollars :nono:

today you can pick up a new dish receiver for under 75 dollars

if subsribers were holding them hostage, dish would still make proffit on their service.

when primestar was around, the price of the package included the dish, install, the receiver, AND any service calls.

there were no contracts on that either.

So why couldnt dish follow that?

[Tim Godsil]

At the risk of getting an answer... I'm forced to ask...

What's the topic here?


the topic im trying to get across is why cant dish and directv have a diy system, and prices adjusted to it?

if we are paying money on our 2 year contracted system, to pay for construction of new receivers. Dish has a free for all promo, but it sucks. Directv doesnt have much of a DIY kit either

so what i think needs to be done is have the old fashioned DIY system, people could install them, and then pay for a service only package, there would also be no DVR fee, since, what i pointed out earlier, the DVR fee you guys pay have nothing to do with the use of the DVR itself

thats why i switched to 4dtv from directv. No longer do i have to sit in the dark during the rain, no longer do i have to pay $57 dollars a month for programming, and the PQ looks like HD, instead of the horrid compression-ridden junk that directv and dish push with their little pizza pans.


So the topic i am pointing out, is, i would not mind having directv, if i could install it my self, and pay only for the programming, and not have to pay that lousy DVR fee.

If you look back, when the DVR came out, rates went up, when the Hd receiver came out, rates went up, then when the HD DVR came out rates REALLY went up, that what im trying to say, rates did not go up due to programming, it went up because the HD DVR cost alot of money to produce

More and more people are going back to c-band because of this, the rates dont go up as much, becuase those providers do not pay for receivers, satellite launches or service.

The reason the mini-dish came out was due to people who wanted simplicty or could not have a 10 foot dish in the backyard.

Ku band has, and always will be prone to rain fade, When the 18 inch dish came out, rain fade sucked, so people bought aftermarket dishes up to 31", i owned one, that did not go out in the rain, but when hd came out, they launced more satellites, and came out with a super dish or the slimline, which basicly packed 5 satellites on a 36" span, then they made them smaller, to look cooler, which then came back to sqaure one, rain fade!

So, now, with more satellites being launced due to High Def, there will be a bigger dish.

So the reason people wanted the mini-dish in the first place, liked it becuase it was small.

So either their will be a bigger dish, or some sorta motorized deal that will come out that will allow people to acess more satellites. Which basicly will be a mini-cband system. Except it will rainfade


so what will be left with? cable tv is fine, except you cant run cable everywhere.

same goes for fiber optic

the whole microwave spec is in use, so am, fm, uhf, vhf, is out of the question

and you couldnt due an ota system either, because you would still need satellite for global tranmsission

Dish and directv's days are numbered, they will keep filling those satellites up with hd, over compressing the crap outa them, launching more satellites, either making a 4 foot dish to get them all, or make some sorta motorized deal like you see for FTA or c-band

so i think it is time we all go back to c-band

so in short there is no topic its just my personal nostradomous

and sorry for the spelling mistakes, im tired

[Mertzen]

the topic im trying to get across is why cant dish and directv have a diy system, and prices adjusted to it?


DIY is gone, it's too complicated, too prone to misinstall.

You'd install it yourself for a $100 discount, but would you then complain for a $100 service call when something goes wrong and you need a truck roll?

[Jim5506]

The cost of hardware is minor compared to programming and self installs would inevitably lead to a plethora of service calls to fix the screw-ups on self-installs. Look at the number of call backs they get on their "professional" installs.

[LarryFlowers]

99% of self installs would end up with a service call or merchandise returned because "it didn't work"... the equipment is above the level of a normal user now.

Larry

[dmspen]

Yes, by all means, let's go back to C band. We'd have to foot the bill for new satellites, new antennae, new receivers, new ground support equipment...

So, everytone chip in 3 million bucks each and we'll get right on it.

[finniganps]

Some people just like to complain. Dish is marketing to the mass market...not the folks who can do their own installs. If you don't like the way Dish does business (I don't believe you actually said that), then go to another vendor. Some people just like to bring crap up for teh sake of stirring a pot...if you don't like the way Dish does business, move on to another provider. I've been with Dish since 1999....I started with a Dishplayer and bought ALL my equipment...now I have a 722 and lease...I like the current lease model....if I stay, I can upgrade for a reasonable rate, if I go, I return the equipment (just like the cable co.) and move on. Funny how no one seems to complain that cable has always required you to lease or doesn't allow you to buy the equipment, but Dish doing it is a huge problem.....

[nmetro]

The reason for ever increasing costs is because of major consolidation of ownership of the so called "cable channels", higher costs of sports programming and retransmission fees from local broadcasters. In the end, equipment though a cost item is minor compared to NBC Universal, Time-Warner, VIACOM, Disney, FOX, et. al. own more than 90% of the channels available. Throw in corporate broadcasters like Gannett, Tribune, Sinclair, Fisher, Scripps, et. al., who want higher costs per subscriber for retransmission consent; you can see why your bill keeps rising year after year.

While, I have not always agreed with the way DISH handles some of the programming (not adding channels, removing channels, etc.), they have strived to keep costs as low as possible for their subscribers. At least this has been my experience over the past 11 years. The bottom line is the corporate greed bottom line that permiates our economy; it is not just limited to financial institutions.

[finniganps]

I also noticed you don't like the DVR fee...then don't get a DVR...then no fee. I love the DVR and wouldn't do without it. The independent - Tivo has those fees...and still has them. If you choose to pay the lifetime fee with Tivo and the DVR dies....you have to pay to repair it....with Dish you get a replacement with the insurance. You get choices.....if you really hate the fee, then DON'T get a DVR or shop elsewhere to get what you want.

[harsh]

if subsribers were holding them hostage, dish would still make proffit on their service.They might make a profit, but they couldn't be competitive if they had a large group of users that screamed bloody murder because their investments in hardware were being thrown out the window.when primestar was around, the price of the package included the dish, install, the receiver, AND any service calls. Where is Primestar now? The model doesn't work anymore as everyone is charging fees for everything to get the customers in the door at a low price.there were no contracts on that either.You don't need a contract to insure cost recovery when the customer pays for everything up front. The less the customer pays to get set up, the more important the contracts are for keeping them around.So why couldnt dish follow that?Because they are a business that wants to be around in five to ten years and in order to do that, they must remain competitive in both programming and hardware.

Comparing the offerings Primestar or VOOM seems more than just a little silly given their current status. You need a viable business model to stay in business and their models may have seemed viable in a vacuum, but not when you're facing savvy competition.

[SaltiDawg]

Sorry, I stopped reading at "loose".
I never got that far.

[phrelin]

Hmmm. Well, if the topic is "Dish Prices Would be lower IF...", then I'd be really interested in suggestions as I don't think there is a realistic option to getting a "cable TV" service cheaper than what Dish offers. Better quality but more costly, yes, but lower priced?

[olguy]

I never got that far.

I got all the way to "credit card debt".

[RasputinAXP]

I just kind of glazed over. The price is what the price is.

[askuhn]

so what i think needs to be done is have the old fashioned DIY system, people could install them, and then pay for a service only package, there would also be no DVR fee, since, what i pointed out earlier, the DVR fee you guys pay have nothing to do with the use of the DVR itself

I thought that part of the reason for the DVR fee is licencing of the 9 day program guide (but I'm not sure about this).

[Stewart Vernon]

That's why I asked what the topic was... the original post and subsequent discussion doesn't seem to jive with the thread title.

Nothing wrong with the thread itself, though I do personally believe much of it is in the "horse already out of the barn" category and we won't be going back to the "old ways" of things anytime soon.

[STEELERSRULE]

the topic im trying to get across is why cant dish and directv have a diy system, and prices adjusted to it?


Actually Dish does, DirecTV does not(to my knowledge. Not looking for a fight from DirecTV lovers, but they do NOT offer this. At least here in the USA).

Dish has the Dish Now prepaid system, which can installed by the customer rather easily(Dish 500 pointed at satellites 110/119), with no installation required by you, the customer. You can hire pro's to do it if you like, but it is not necessary.

No contracts or leases at all. Only a "shell" account created by dish upon first activation(name, address, phone #, e-mail address, zip code), and that's it(all you needed was a zip code until Dish began replacing the smartcards with the new G3 Smartcards a couple of months ago).

It is available for only one room, and is SD only too boot. But you can order just 1 day of programming, and thn have it stop and start at your leisure. No hidden fee, or taxes.

But there are things it does not offer/have which a regular Dish customer would/could get:

1. No local channels
2. No local Regional Sports Networks(FSN's, NESN, YES, MSG, etc...)
3. No HD
4. No PPV/VOD

But, they be shutting down this setup over the next year. They may grandfather in those of us who have it, and then stop selling it, or they may stop the service altogether.

But something is happening now with it. It is just no one knows the eventual outcome yet.

[stogie5150]

I am not paying for TV again ( I was with D* from 1996-2007) until I can pay JUST for what I want, when I want it. The days of 5 bazillion channels I have no interest in, but still paid for, are OVER.

I still maintain that the US is missing a HUGE market, by not having a system like Europe does, they just use a FTA receiver and BUY the decryption card. THAT would be SWEET. :hurah:

No equipment costs at ALL for the uplinker. Just make the card, and tell the user what satellite to point at. :)

[Tim Godsil]

Actually Dish does, DirecTV does not(to my knowledge. Not looking for a fight from DirecTV lovers, but they do NOT offer this. At least here in the USA).

Dish has the Dish Now prepaid system, which can installed by the customer rather easily(Dish 500 pointed at satellites 110/119), with no installation required by you, the customer. You can hire pro's to do it if you like, but it is not necessary.

No contracts or leases at all. Only a "shell" account created by dish upon first activation(name, address, phone #, e-mail address, zip code), and that's it(all you needed was a zip code until Dish began replacing the smartcards with the new G3 Smartcards a couple of months ago).

It is available for only one room, and is SD only too boot. But you can order just 1 day of programming, and thn have it stop and start at your leisure. No hidden fee, or taxes.

But there are things it does not offer/have which a regular Dish customer would/could get:

1. No local channels
2. No local Regional Sports Networks(FSN's, NESN, YES, MSG, etc...)
3. No HD
4. No PPV/VOD

But, they be shutting down this setup over the next year. They may grandfather in those of us who have it, and then stop selling it, or they may stop the service altogether.

But something is happening now with it. It is just no one knows the eventual outcome yet.

primestar had a good plan, thats why they were bought out by directv, they were a threat to them, that is what large corporations do, they stomp out the little guy.

dish'es pre paid system still has the regular price, and you are right, no local channels or hd, but dish does not want improve upon it, like you said, it would hurt income

dish moved the call centers overseas because it was cheaper, they did not care if you couldnt understand, they dont care about consumer's.

I was a satellite TV giant, if i was in progress of development of a new receiver, i would send out a form to ask what people would like to see in it, not just make it and hope they like it, which is a very bad practice, and why some models of car were only made for a few years, see, they cant see what the consumer wants because of the large stack of dollar bills that sits in front of them

so thats why companies make something that they think people would like, 3/4 of them may like it, but as long as what it takes for them to make revenue, they dont care if the other 1/4 is pissed off.

so why do ya think dish has come out with all those ad's recently bashing directv? because they are hurting, they are now realizing that they are loosing money because alot of people were mad about their service, having to call some one in calibobannorastera, only to not have the problem fixed due to minimal english language understanding, that is where directv picked up their group, when ever i had a problem, even the bottom level was english ,and the second tier support were experts in the field.


So if dish would send out a little form in everyones email to do online, what they would like in the next receiver.

Would if people want a receiver another color besided black, silver or white?
Would if people want a receiver that you can send content to another dvr in the room?

What if people want a receiver they can put a note on Gramp's tv downstairs saying that supper is ready?

What if people want a receiver that you can hook you camcorder up to and download content to another DVR, maybe send it to someone else across the country

dish and directv need to think of the future, they need to keep up with changing times and make things look like something that wouldnt come out for 10 years, that is what competion is based upon if dish came out with something that looks 15 years ahead, then people would prefer them more.

so the perfect list would be

1. Listen to your customers, please as many of them as you can, even the pissed 25 percent.
2. Make something that will make the other brand look stuck in the stone age.

If dish would follow that, they could pick up quite a few people, instead of THINKING why people are going away, ASK WHY, and then solve the problem, instead of sugercoating yourselves with that 9.99 a month for 6 months crap,because they will be happy for 6 months, then the same ol stuff will start up, and then they will leave

maybe dish is doing that on purpose,see how many people they can pissed in 6 months, they maybe they will leave and they can make some money off the early cancelation charges, make there deal look better again, and suck more people in, the ol bait and switch trick!

[Tim Godsil]

I am not paying for TV again ( I was with D* from 1996-2007) until I can pay JUST for what I want, when I want it. The days of 5 bazillion channels I have no interest in, but still paid for, are OVER.

I still maintain that the US is missing a HUGE market, by not having a system like Europe does, they just use a FTA receiver and BUY the decryption card. THAT would be SWEET. :hurah:

No equipment costs at ALL for the uplinker. Just make the card, and tell the user what satellite to point at. :)

when dish was a baby, they did have pick 10 pack, c-band is ala carte still, but here is the story i got when i asked at satellite guys,

here ya go about ala carte:

It's not up to Dish or DirecTV. If it were Dish would STILL have it (they used to and they had to drop it)

Dish used to have a package called "DishPix" for $15 a month. You could pick 10 channels from any of the channels they had at the time (about 40) with the exception of ESPN and MTV networks including Nickelodeon and Disney Dhannel. Disney Channel was $10 at the time all by itself.

Anyway, as Dish added more and more channels, the owners of the channel like Viacom, ESPN/Disney, Turner all started insisting on channel packaging. IOW if a subscriber wanted TBS, they would also have to get the rest of the Turner Networks like CNN, TNT, CMT, etc. After a while the package was unviable and they dropped it.

So anyway, that is my long way of saying, until the program providers allow a la carte, you will not see any provider like Dish, DirecTV or cable offer a la carte on any of the main stream channels with rare exeptions.

so basicly greed ruined the channels companies too, if you live in europe, you can get every channel darn near for free, even free adult channels!

[Shades228]

Easiest way to lower your bill with any provider is to cancel them. If you're not happy with the price you pay for your service then don't have the service.

Prices will never go down because even if they did get cheaper programming deals the companies know customers are willing to pay these rates. Why lower them?

As far as the lease vs DIY model. You would never recoup your savings in 24 months that you get from either satellite carrier if you had to purchase this equipment outright.

[deaincaelo]

let me try to rebut a few things.

...there would also be no DVR fee, since, what i pointed out earlier, the DVR fee you guys pay have nothing to do with the use of the DVR itself

programming providers charge higher rates when they know it is being dvr'ed. This is the same as the tv2 fee.

dish and directv have a diy system, and prices adjusted to it?

DIY systems are more expensive to the company than professionally installed for the reasons above.

dish moved the call centers overseas because it was cheaper, they did not care if you couldnt understand, they dont care about consumer's.

dish has plenty of callcenters in the US. If your gung ho about putting a foreigner out of work apply. http://www.dishnetwork.jobs/

Would if people want a receiver that you can send content to another dvr in the room? ...What if people want a receiver that you can hook you camcorder up to and download content to another DVR, maybe send it to someone else across the country


Doing so would most likely be against the DMCA, and would cause a massive problem with the MAFIAA. They porbably couldn't continue to carry programming if they offered un DRM'ed anything.


2. Make something that will make the other brand look stuck in the stone age.

Did you see the 922 yet? dish trys to do this in every generation of equipment.

if you want to lower the price you need two things:

1)competivie motivation to lower prices.

2) an ability to lower operating expenses.

So the best thing that people can do if they want lower prices is to use automation as much as possible (why wouldnt you want to use the machine instead fo a csr anyway?) wait out programming disputes as much as possible, etc. while still making dish feel the pressure to pass the profits on.

[jclewter79]

You are never going to see E* or D* have a motorized dish system. That would be hell on a multi-room system. Try explaining to the customers they can't watch a certain channel in the bedroom because dad is watching a channel on another sattelite in the living room. C-band was never supposed to be for direct to home service, it just ended up that way.

[Richard King]

More and more people are going back to c-band because of this,You're kidding, right? I doubt that there has been any month in MANY years that C-band actually gained consumer subscribers. I think the last time they gained subscribers was 1995? The activation center even stopped releasing numbers because they were dwindling every month and became totally insignificant.
primestar had a good plan, thats why they were bought out by directv, they were a threat to them, that is what large corporations do, they stomp out the little guy.Primestar went broke. They couldn't compete and stomped themselves out. Primestar WASN'T "the little guy" they were owned by some of the largest cable companies in the country.

[shabadoo25]

I have a friend exactly like the OP, and he also has dish.

My friend would also prefer that everything in life was as cheap as humanly possible, even if it meant doing things like installing your own dish. Of course, he is technically inclined and used to DIY, so this makes perfect sense to him.

He also hates to pay for any services, and thinks that they are all ripoffs. He thinks that $5 is a fantastic tip no matter what the restaurant bill adds up to. He regularly has his wife order one soda with unlimited refills for them both to drink. As an aside, he makes 6 figures a year as an IT guy.

It's just in some people's natures to b*tch about the cost of everything and wish that prices were the same as the 70's/80's.

[HobbyTalk]

I may be mistaken but if I remember correctly when I looked at Primestar when they were in business you had to lease the equipment and pay a $150 installation fee.

[Tim Godsil]

I may be mistaken but if I remember correctly when I looked at Primestar when they were in business you had to lease the equipment and pay a $150 installation fee.

correct, i would not mind giving anyone $150 to install my dish, because the new kaku dish directv has has to be dithered on a $300+ bird dog signal finder. I like it when i could use those little 15 dollar tone signal finders off ebay, they worked great

and there were no contracts with primestar, once you paid that $150, the dish was yours.

From my research primestar was planning to go high-power, but that would of required to replace everyone's dish, and IRD.


So instead, they were planning on going Digicipher-II, what 4dtv was using., they had, in development, a digicipher-II sidecar that would plug in to the receiver

4dtv had some downfalls, there was never a DVR made for them, or a integrated hd receiver, except for starchoice

So if primestar went DG-II, that means down the road, General Instrument would of made dvr's for them and hd receiver


well what is DG-II main selling point? stunning pq that was blowing away directv and dish at the time. hd on primestar would blow away anything directv could of made with their overcompressed junk
So here is what directv thought

if primestar came out with a dg-II box that had dvr or hd, they would instantly crush the little dish market, directv would loose customers

and if primestar had DVR and hd made for them, them GI would of made them for C-band 4dtv, that would send alot of c-band folks back online, making a double whammy for directv. So they bought them ought, and converted primestar subs over to directv, that way, they GAINED customers, instead of LOSING them to both 4dtv and primestar.

the threat was too great so that is why directv, who had more money then dish at the time bought them out, it had nothing to with them being broke, they were a double threat to directv, so they had to be snuffed out.

[HobbyTalk]

correct, i would not mind giving anyone $150 to install my dish, because the new kaku dish directv has has to be dithered on a $300+ bird dog signal finder. I like it when i could use those little 15 dollar tone signal finders off ebay, they worked great

and there were no contracts with primestar, once you paid that $150, the dish was yours.



Kind of counteracting yourself aren't you? First you say it should be DIY, now you say $150 an OK price to install. You say the equipment should be owned (using Primestar as an example) but the Primestar equipment was leased... sure you might have owned the dish, but that doesn't do you much good without the rest of the electronics.

[Paul Secic]

The reason for ever increasing costs is because of major consolidation of ownership of the so called "cable channels", higher costs of sports programming and retransmission fees from local broadcasters. In the end, equipment though a cost item is minor compared to NBC Universal, Time-Warner, VIACOM, Disney, FOX, et. al. own more than 90% of the channels available. Throw in corporate broadcasters like Gannett, Tribune, Sinclair, Fisher, Scripps, et. al., who want higher costs per subscriber for retransmission consent; you can see why your bill keeps rising year after year.

While, I have not always agreed with the way DISH handles some of the programming (not adding channels, removing channels, etc.), they have strived to keep costs as low as possible for their subscribers. At least this has been my experience over the past 11 years. The bottom line is the corporate greed bottom line that permiates our economy; it is not just limited to financial institutions.

BINGO. We have a winner. It's the media!

[RasputinAXP]

More and more people are going back to c-band because of this, the rates dont go up as much, becuase those providers do not pay for receivers, satellite launches or service.

Dish and directv's days are numbered, they will keep filling those satellites up with hd, over compressing the crap outa them, launching more satellites, either making a 4 foot dish to get them all, or make some sorta motorized deal like you see for FTA or c-band

so i think it is time we all go back to c-band

!rolling :rolling: !rolling :rolling:

[harsh]

if primestar went DG-II...if primestar came out with a dg-II box that had dvr or hd...if primestar had DVR and hd made for themAnd if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.

This is precisely what I mean by a business plan. If VOOM had a DVR and a satellite other than at (or in addition to) 61.5W they might be alive today. Nary a business can survive today without having thought of pretty much everything.

[FastNOC]

Bread was a nickel a loaf once too.

[Jim5506]

Dish prices would be lower if bozos didn't expect everything for free, free HD upgrade, free programming because it rained and I missed Lost, free dish because I want to switch to EA, Blah, Blah, Blah, WAA, WAA, WAA!

[phrelin]

This thread from the original post on......:uglyhamme:bonk1:!rolling

[Kent Taylor]

One of the things Dish could do to reduce prices is to stop replacing units as the first step of troubleshooting. I've seen many posts of folks who say "they're shipping me out a new unit free of charge" for things that we've discussed here as a software issue. If the first line CSR's have that much authority, they should know the product a lot better than is being exhibited.

[whalerfan]

I don't know if Dish has an extra $10 HD access fee but D* does. This is a bit outrageous. My experience is as follows. For the past 6 years or so, I had Total Choice Plus. A co-worker was able to talk a CSR into an HR20 upgrade for me. This machine worked great for a while although I did not have HD access, I received the locals in HD. This machine had an issue and I called to get it fixed. It took 5 service calls to get it fixed and the remedy was replacing it. When I replaced it, as I did not have the protection plan, my commitment was extended by 2 years. I only found this out by checking my account on-line then calling a CSR. Having "blown a fuse" I was sent to customer retention. I then talked to a great CSR and upgraded my upstairs DVR to another HR21. Fast forward to this month. I downgraded my package to the family pack. I then did a comparison. I went from a minimum of 33 HD channels to about 7. This is fine but despite the lower cost of the package, the HD access fee remains the same. I look forward to the time that this fee will no longer be charged as all channels will be in HD.

[coldsteel]

Kent, there is NO troubleshooting procedures for either company where the first step is to replace the receiver. There is one where there's only one option before replacement, but that's in HDD failure on a DVR.

WhalerFan, good luck with that. Dish does charge $10 for HD beyond locals, and used to charge $5/$7 for no HD package. You'll probably never see every channel in HD in our lifetime, honestly.

[FogCutter]

Corporate greed? Hey, Dish is an optional service. Stick it to the Man and watch OTA. But wait -- the networks are corporations -- MORE CORPORATE GREED. Can't get away from it. Turn off the TV (which was built by a greedy corporation) and read a book. Damn -- books come from publishers, most of which are corporations -- MORE GREED.

Tim, when you accept pay for the work you do, that's greed too if you don't give it all away to charity, isn't it?

Greed, greed, GREED, unless the money is coming your way. Then it's OK. You earned it.

So there is free socialist porn in Europe -- hadn't heard that -- there is something to aspire to. I'll write Congress and have it added to the next stimulus package. That way at least something will be stimulated.

[coldsteel]

Corporate greed? Hey, Dish is an optional service. Stick it to the Man and watch OTA. But wait -- the networks are corporations -- MORE CORPORATE GREED. Can't get away from it. Turn off the TV (which was built by a greedy corporation) and read a book. Damn -- books come from publishers, most of which are corporations -- MORE GREED.

Tim, when you accept pay for the work you do, that's greed too if you don't give it all away to charity, isn't it?

Greed, greed, GREED, unless the money is coming your way. Then it's OK. You earned it.

So there is free socialist porn in Europe -- hadn't heard that -- there is something to aspire to. I'll write Congress and have it added to the next stimulus package. That way at least something will be stimulated.

:gott::thats::icon_lol::righton: