America's Top 200

[IndyMichael]

America's Top 200 (http://servicedesk.dbstalk.com/AT200.htm)

I'd pay more for an America's Top 200 package. These are the channels from the link that I would really like: America One, College Sports TV, Good Life, Movie Watch, MTV Hits, Nicktoons, Oxygen, PBS Kids, Tennis Channel, Trio, and VH1 Country, Mega Hits and Soul.

[Steve Mehs]

I'm not really interested in any new channels, unless Viacom could get rid of CMT and replace it with VH-1 Country (but that would probably go to hell eventually) and MTV Jamz could turn back into MTVX. For the channels that DirecTV has in TC and TC+ that are not on Dish I would think Dish would do their best to keep them in AT100 and AT150 for competition reasons.

[gcutler]

Those are all nice channels, but how many people are clamoring for them to Charlie? I personally wouldn't lift a finger to request them. I think (rightly or wrongly) Charlie feels that they can make more people happy by each or all the locals they add than they can make happy by adding those channels you list?

[FTA Michael]

It's not about Charlie making people happy, it's about which channels best serve E*'s goals. Some current channels are there because they were bundled in negotiations for channels E* really wanted. Some channels aren't there because (I'm guessing) their negotiations reached a Take-or-Leave point of failure. (See: Trio). Once they hit that point, Charlie's very reluctant to reopen those talks.

Even if channels are provided free to E*, they represent a missed opportunity for a money-making channel. For example, E* will make more money with an extra cricket PPV channel than it would with the increased subs that America One would bring.

Personally, I'd love to subscribe to an AT200 package like that, but I understand why it probably just won't happen. :(

[Jacob S]

I would say that more than likely Charlie would make top 50, 100, 150 into something like top 60, 125, 200 instead of making an additional top 200 package in addition to what they have now because it used to be top 40, 60 then top 50, 100 then they added the top 150 to it. Its hard to tell but dont you think that four basic packages are too many? Top 150 is already at $42.99 so the next one above that would probably be $50+

[Chris Freeland]

hmmmm! Lets see, if you add all AT150 tv and audio channels together it adds to about 177 channels, now if you add the Multi-Sport pack of over 20 out-of-market RSN's, wow you have a AT200 package now :D .

Some of those channels that are listed in this America's Top 200 link, are already included in the SA* package at 61.5, these will not likely ever be added to E*. I also have to agree with Jacob S, some of those channels or others may eventually be added to AT150 or a successor to AT150, aka AT160 perhaps, but I too do not believe we will ever see a 4th (5th if you count AT50 Plus) basic package. It is possible that we could see an add on mini-pack or two in the future that could be added to any basic package, however I kind of doubt this because most of these channels only want to be included in one of the big basic packages (AT50/100/150 etc). Any new channels in the future will need to be able to either make more :money: for E*, or be a channel with enough name recognition to increase the perceived value to a basic package to bring in enough additional subs or be able to keep old subs, their are few if any channels available out their that E* does not already have in their line-up that fits the above criteria.

[gcutler]

It's not about Charlie making people happy, it's about which channels best serve E*'s goals.

But it is about making people happy...you add locals for certain DMAs (you make X many people happy) and then X many people buy the locals (if they were giving away locals then Happy would mean nothing). The addition of an AT200 would probably not make that many people happy (my conjecture only) and as a result not many people would upgrade to it (again my conjecture).

But if we take the goals point of view, their goals are OBVIOUSLY more Locals. Is Charlie even in major negotiation for other channels??? Or are all his negotiations involving Locals.

There are some variables... Now of course some locals will have little income potential, but there are still DMAs that have the potental to draw in alot of money, and some people will upgrade tp an AT200 even if they never plan to watch those new channels (I used to be one of those until Mr. Economy slapped me silly)

[Jacob S]

After you saying that I now believe that they could in a way add a fourth package as a mini pack, or even a fifth in this manner. Having AT 50, 100, 150 then AT 50 Plus, 100 Plus, 150 Plus then perhaps another mini pack calling it for example Platinum which would either include all of those in the mini pack plus additional ones or an individual package in itself. This extra package would be different from the basic packages in that you would not have to get AT 150 to get the channels but have AT 50 plus this package.

[gcutler]

After you saying that I now believe that they could in a way add a fourth package as a mini pack, or even a fifth in this manner. Having AT 50, 100, 150 then AT 50 Plus, 100 Plus, 150 Plus then perhaps another mini pack calling it for example Platinum which would either include all of those in the mini pack plus additional ones or an individual package in itself. This extra package would be different from the basic packages in that you would not have to get AT 150 to get the channels but have AT 50 plus this package.

I remember Charlie once saying in a Chat that their accounting system can't handle that many packages as consumer choices, I wonder if a Accounting system Software upgrade would be required to do the "Plus" packaging :D

[Bobby94928]

I remember Charlie once saying in a Chat that their accounting system can't handle that many packages as consumer choices, I wonder if a Accounting system Software upgrade would be required to do the "Plus" packaging :D

My question here might be; is the accounting system driving the satellite revolution? That's a weak excuse. I am in agreement with much of what Charlie does, but let's not let the software guide the product.

[Jacob S]

Charlie and his accouting and computer systems not being able to handle this and that. He needs to upgrade his hardware if it cannot take simple changes such as this. He really needs to do something about that instead of being cheap.

[gcutler]

My question here might be; is the accounting system driving the satellite revolution? That's a weak excuse. I am in agreement with much of what Charlie does, but let's not let the software guide the product.

Don't know if it is true or not, but that was an excuse I did hear out of his mouth on a chat about lack of alternative packages. And as Jacob S. reminds us, he is really cheap, so i would not put it past him.

[dfergie]

If they eliminated the audio channels, it would free up room for some of the channels mentioned above. I do not listen to any of mine, but am obligated as I have the everything pack.

[abospaum]

E*'s accounting system is why we have the $4.99/month additional receiver fee.

While they could gain another 5 million subs in the first year that they dropped the fee they don't have a system to keep track of that many smart cards. One of the reasons why people pirate Dish feed in the first place is the ridiculous fees that make no sense such as additional receiver fees.

Cable companies call the fee a rental fee and the same fee is charged under the dish if you rent your receivers. Why is this fee there if you own your own receivers.

[RichW]

"E*'s accounting system is why we have the $4.99/month additional receiver fee."

Nope! Its not about the accounting system. Its about the accounts themselves.
The 5 buck fee brings in millions of dollars a month. The reason it brings in millions of dollars a month is that people are willing to pay it.

[Mike D-CO5]

But if they would make the "sacrifice "and cut out the additional fees they would start a trend that would make all sat and cable companies follow through. They would also get a large amount of new subscribers from both cable and Directv. That would make them a lot of money from people who would buy new receivers for other rooms in the house that they might not buy other wise. Either way the consumer would win and Dish would gain more market share in new customer subscriptions. That would surely be worth more to them than a few extra $5.00 a month.

[Claude Greiner]

Instead of bigger packages, id much rather see theme based packages like Expressvu has.

I think that for customers to be able to bundle together several smaller packages to get the channels they like would be more popular than offering bigger packages and forcing customers to take channels they do not like.

It would be a marketing nightmare trying to explain these packages to new potential customers, but this would be something that basic analog cable just couldn't compete with since Dish would have the ability to turn on and off certain groups of channels..

[Jacob S]

The audio channels do not take up that much room so several of those take up the same space as one video channel. Why get rid of a lot of the audio channels just to add a video channel or two? How many audio channels takes up the same space as a video channel anyways?

[Chris Freeland]

Marketing is one reason I do not believe we will ever see a basic package above AT150, I do not believe their is a big enough of a market for it to be worthwhile for E* to go beyond AT150, Premium, ATHD and possibly other add ons, yes, but beyond that I doubt it.

[Jacob S]

I would also like to see theme based packages like ExpressVu has. I believe that Rainbow is going to do something similar to this as well as some ala carte channels. Perhaps DirecTv and Dish will do this if they do it and are successful with it unless they do not view the company as that big of a threat.


Thats why there is a need for smaller theme packages. Instead of just creating bigger and bigger packages, smaller ones would be the way to go in a sense. Makes more sense for subscribers and for the company. It gives the customer more choice.

[Jacob S]

I agree on the accounting system not being the reason that the $4.99 additional receiver fee is being charged. Charlie himself did say that the extra charges were for keeping the signal encrypted and to pay some sort of fee to NagraVision in which encrypts them.

I do not think they would gain THAT many subscribers by dropping the additional outlet fee. Even if they did, they would lose the income on the additional outlet fees so would they make any additional money off of that to offset what they would lose not getting that extra $4.99 per additional receiver? Also what if they do have to pay NagraVision to encrypt each receiver? That may be something they may not be able to eliminate the charge of. If they could actually make more money by dropping the fee by bringing in more customers then that would be good but that may result in higher receiver prices and/or higher programming charges made up somewhere else if they dont get it for the additional outlet. I believe if one provider does it then the other will as well in which would not leave it as much of an advantage to the other as a result unless cable still charged those fees for their additional digital receivers. Cable (particularly digital cable) has a receiver for each tv and charges more than $4.99 a month per tv in a lot of cases, renting out those receivers, according to what others have said on here.

[Ronmort]

Why not have one fee for additional receivers. I think that would make both Dish and DTV more attractive for people who want to have an independent system in more than two areas of their homes.

[Jacob S]

Perhaps the dual tuner receivers is a way of them combating this extra fee, unless they choose to charge an additional fee on those too. If they do then I wonder if they will allow only one tuner to be on instead of both. Also is DirecTv having any plans on coming out with dual tuner receivers other than the DirecTivo dual tuner receiver that is not a pvr?

[BobMurdoch]

People who are interested in Satellite TV are not going to install because of an additional receiver charge.

It's one of those things we all hate, but not enough to pitch the service and go back to cable.

[Claude Greiner]

Its the additional reciever fees which keep people away from satellite.

Try compairing At50 with (4) recievers and locals to basic cable. Dish is actually more money than cable!

I know the picture is better and you get better equipment, but people are more concerned about price, than features these days.

[Mike D-CO5]

Like I said before : the price of additional subscribers say subing to the top 100 package as oppossed to the 4.99 fee per extra receiver cost . Obviously they are going to beat the competition with the no fee on extra receivers. They are going to hurt cable at least digital cable . Directv would have to follow to compete. Everyone would win especially the consumers. More people would sub to satellite if they didn't have to pay the extra fees. Think what kind of Advantage they would have for a while over everyone " It's all in the Dish except No extra fees on extra receivers."

If they didn't want to totally do away with the fees they could offer a whole house discount of a certain price say $9.99 per household. That would certainly still give them an advantage over the competition. That would still help them keep the price comparable to cable and a clear advantage over Directv, at least till they caught up with their own package discount price.

[Mike D-CO5]

Another thought Dish could offer no fees if you subbed to AEP and locals . That way they could still have the fees and it would encourage subscribers to sub to America's Everything Pack which would Help Dish's bottom line . They would still be able to charge for customers who didn't buy the more expensive package. Directv has done something like that for the customers who have Tivo and their premier pack or what ever is their most expensive pack and movies together. No Fee if you sub to this package with Tivo. Of course this only applies to the Tivo service but the idea is similiar.

[gcutler]

Another thought Dish could offer no fees if you subbed to AEP and locals . That way they could still have the fees and it would encourage subscribers to sub to America's Everything Pack which would Help Dish's bottom line .

That would be a great idea, until recently, except for Foreign channels there was NO RED when I did All Channels in the guide, had almost a $100/month bill. That would have been a nice incentive. I have always had a spare Reciever in the closet and wouldn't mind throwing it in the "Guest Room" instead (even hook it up to a VCR to record in case the SA TiVo and 508 aren't enough, happens about once a month) But I doubt that will happen (blame the Accounting system again :D )

[Jacob S]

Those that have the AEP package are the ones that would more likely be able to afford the additional receiver fee vs. those that have the smaller programming packages, so do you think that they would drop it for those that pay more money for their programming that are more able to pay for it?

Doesn't digital cable charge for each additional outlet that requires a receiver like around $10 per month? Can customers still get some channel packages in analog without a receiver?

[Geronimo]

Of course the cable company charges you foir a box they own. Satellite charges you when you own it.

[gcutler]

Those that have the AEP package are the ones that would more likely be able to afford the additional receiver fee vs. those that have the smaller programming packages, so do you think that they would drop it for those that pay more money for their programming that are more able to pay for it?


Thats the way it usually goes...At the bank you get free checking when you have a minimum balance, those with more than the minimum balance can more afford the account than those who can't keep the minimum balance.

For Dish It is more an incentive for those who can afford it to spend a certain amount thant those who just have minimum service.

[abospaum]

The cable companies charge a rental fee for their equipment. You can buy your own box and there is no fee. Some of the digital cable systems such as cablevision are using smartcards as well. It is possible to buy your own set top box and have cablevision install it so that they give you the smartcard. There is an installation fee but no maintenence fee. Also if you have digital cable you can still feed the signal into an ordinary cable ready set and receive all the basic channels which is ideal for a guest room.

My parents often have lots of visitors so they need TVs in their guest rooms plus an excercise room all with cable. They only have 2 digital boxes. I have a friend with a similar set-up. 2 boxes but six TV's. For either of them to go to DISH would be an additional $15/month over what they are currently paying.

Once the 522 is out we will see a better deal because 2 TV's can be controlled by one box without complicated switching. Dish has said that there will be one one smart card for these receivers and therefore it only counts as one receiver.

I understand if Dish needs to pay a fee to keep encryption up but they are limiting their business to people who only have a couple of TV's in their house and the high end user market. The vast majority of the middle market won't go near satellite because it is so much more expensive.

Dish has morons for marketing managers. We loved when they had movies for $2.99 for one view along with the All-Day Tickets. Since many users have PVR's now there is absolutely no need for an All-Day movie. Also when I questioned them on this they used a market study from video rentals. According to that marketing study many people who rent video tapes/DVD's watch them more than once or only a portion at a time. They can do this with the All-Day ticket. I tried to explain to them that people can record their PPV's to watch at a later time. Also when you rent you don't watch it numerous times the same evening. They don't know how to market their product. They'll do anything to gain new subs by giving equipment away but they won't ever give a break to someone who has stuck with them for 10 years.

[jeffwtux]

Actually, Blue Crush was offered in June for $2.99.

[Jacob S]

They should give a deal for those that order multiple ppv's such as 3 for $10 or $3 each if you order so many per month. If you order AEP (in which those customers would be less likely to order ppv) they should allow those customers to get the ppv's for $2-$3.

[rtt2]

Actually Cablevision does not let you buy your own cable box. This is not an option to buy your own box. It is true that Cablevision does use smart cards in their new digital cable boxes. In fact they use NDS as the CA system. (The same CA company DirecTV uses).
My suspicion is that this will be the the same CA system that Cablevision's new satellite will operate under as well. Rainbow 1 scheduled to be launched July 17 probably will use NDS and may be another target for hackers.

By the way a lost, stolen, or damaged cards is a $70 fee under Cablevision's rules.

[Jacob S]

I didnt know that Rainbow was launching on July 17. Is it just the satellite they are launching or the service as a whole? I thought the service was not supposed to be up until the end of the year?

Also if they use NDS they will be stupid as the system is not as secure as some of the others out there. I thought they were using something a bit more advanced. I figure they would use something at least similar to what Dish uses in which is NagaraVision. If they can get in DirecTv's cards then they can probably get into the Cablevision cards as well. A hack for one is a hack for the other too it would seem unless they use a different card for the cable system than the satellite service.

[Adam Richey]

I think it's just the satellite. The service isn't supposed to be up until the end of the year.

[DarrellP]

I am a cheapskate and currently have a Dish 6000 and a PVR 501 on my account. I have a spare 3900 sitting in the garage because I don't want to spend another $5 for TV programming to hook this up in the bedroom. Instead I use an antenna for OTA Analog in the bedroom and I get the locals just fine. Sorry Charlie, you're not getting another $5 out of me, I'm saving my bucks for the new HD package.

[rtt2]

I am guessing that Rainbow will use NDS since Cablevision has implemented NDS as its CA system for its cable boxes. According to rumors Kristen Dolan (The president of Cablevision's wife) took about a year and a half picking out a CA system. She took forever for many rumored reasons but some say to pick a system that would operate on both the satellite and cable system.
NDS was apparently used for the first time in digital Scientific Atlanta boxes for the Cablevision account.
PS I mistakenly said a lost, stolen or damaged card for cablevision is $70 when it is in fact $75. Apparently this is a big problem because the cards on the Cablevision boxes stick out noticeably in the front and don't have a door to cover them up.

[rtt2]

Wrong pic above I am guessing that Rainbow will use NDS since Cablevision has implemented NDS as its CA system for its cable boxes. According to rumors Kristen Dolan (The president of Cablevision's wife) took about a year and a half picking out a CA system. She took forever for many rumored reasons but some say to pick a system that would operate on both the satellite and cable system.
NDS was apparently used for the first time in digital Scientific Atlanta boxes for the Cablevision account.
PS I mistakenly said a lost, stolen or damaged card for cablevision is $70 when it is in fact $75. Apparently this is a big problem because the cards on the Cablevision boxes stick out noticeably in the front and don't have a door to cover them up.

[rtt2]

wrong pic above I am guessing that Rainbow will use NDS since Cablevision has implemented NDS as its CA system for its cable boxes. According to rumors Kristen Dolan (The president of Cablevision's wife) took about a year and a half picking out a CA system. She took forever for many rumored reasons but some say to pick a system that would operate on both the satellite and cable system.
NDS was apparently used for the first time in digital Scientific Atlanta boxes for the Cablevision account.
PS I mistakenly said a lost, stolen or damaged card for cablevision is $70 when it is in fact $75. Apparently this is a big problem because the cards on the Cablevision boxes stick out noticeably in the front and don't have a door to cover them up.

[DoyleS]

A top 200 wouldn't do it for me. There are lots of nice additions when you move from 50 to 100 or 100 to 150 but there doesn't seem to be a big offering left other than the premium channels which are already available on an ala carte or package basis. I like the music channels but find the mono channels worthless because the sound quality is so poor. I would add a receiver just to have the music channels available in another room but it is not worth an additional $5 receiver fee. What would be nice would be to be able to subscribe to HBO, Showtime or the other premium channels on a weekly basis. Order with your remote or over the phone but be able to get a week of a premium channel for say $5-$6. I don't want to pay connect and disconnect fees but sometimes it would be nice to order up a week of premium channels and pay a premium price for doing that. Now if you accounting system can't handle it, well you should probably fire the CFO and get someone in there that understands marketing and sales. In the end you can only sell the products that you have and if you aren't getting more long term subs for premiums then maybe you should look at trying to get some additional short term subs.

..Doyle

[Jacob S]

The image is not showing completely, just the top of the picture, although I am using Opera so that may explain it. I wonder if there have been issues with the Cablevision NDS security if it has been compromised. I also wonder if they use the same card DirecTv uses and if Rainbow will be using the same card as well as their cable service or the DirecTv service.

If they allowed customers to sign up for a premium service for just a week then that would not be encouraging the customers to keep it for a longer term but at the same time it may encourage more to try out the packages. Perhaps a 7 day satisfaction guarantee and if you do not like it then no $5 drop fee applied, and this allowed only one time per package that you choose.

[rtt2]

I am using Opera too and all I did was to use horizontal scroll bar on the bottom to go from left to right and I was able to view the photo just fine. However your computer may be different, who knows. Sorry about the photo but it is the only one I had. A friend gave me the photo and I had a difficult enough time learning how to post it on this message board to begin with.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I have adjusted the size of the photo so you should not need to scroll left and right to see the entire thing. :)

[Bobby94928]

Thanks Scott!

[Jacob S]

That fixed the problem, I can see the whole picture now. I figured they would have at least put a door over the smart card or at least make it to where it goes in further instead of sticking out like it does. Even the 2700 card stuck in more than that even though there was no door.

[rtt2]

Thanks Scott,
The smart card sticking out is an incredible problem apparently. Cablevision operates in NY, NJ & CT. In those states it operates in places like the Bronx, where crime is higher. People stealing smart cards and others accidentally damaging them because they stick out have caused many problems apparently. People are even more pissed when they learn that there is a $75 fee for replacements. We should consider ourselves lucky compared to what E* & D* charge. Its still an arm and a leg but not $75.

[Chris Freeland]

I have adjusted the size of the photo so you should not need to scroll left and right to see the entire thing. :)

Thank Yoo Sooooooo much! I hate scrolling left to write and my little wheel on my mouse only goes up and down, once again thank you Scott.
:)

[speedy882001]

I have basic cable since I can not get locals off of my dish. The basic cable for networks is about $11.50 a month and I have it attached to 5 outlets. They (Time Warner) does not charge extra for the additional outlets. Since they are analog, I can plug a tv into any of the 5 locations and start watching. No additional equipment. I think this is still one advantage that cable has over satellite.

[Mike123abc]

I have basic cable since I can not get locals off of my dish. The basic cable for networks is about $11.50 a month and I have it attached to 5 outlets. They (Time Warner) does not charge extra for the additional outlets. Since they are analog, I can plug a tv into any of the 5 locations and start watching. No additional equipment. I think this is still one advantage that cable has over satellite.


Cable's advantage is about to get bigger when Digital cable ready TVs come out at the end of this year. Then you will also be able to get the digital tier without paying for additional boxes/TVs.

[Mike Richardson]

Cable's advantage is about to get bigger when Digital cable ready TVs come out at the end of this year. Then you will also be able to get the digital tier without paying for additional boxes/TVs.
Will they really be able to market TVs that work on ALL digital cable systems? They have to work on ALL systems not just one company's. If they do that and then decide they want to use better compression formats or something then a lot of people are screwed.

But if they do make "digital cable ready TVs" that are worth anything, maybe one of the satellite companies will market a box that "maps" the satellite channels into a format those TVs can use. Perhaps said box could even map some satellite channels into analog channels for use on any TV (but I think the box would need a lot of tuners to do that, or some kind of detection technology or something odd like that).

[Jacob S]

Thats what I was thinking a while back Mike Richardson whenever I first heard about these tv's with the Digital Cable ready tuner inside. One problem may be a common platform in which hackers would be more likely to get into since there would be more of the same type and then if there would be a need for upgrade and its built into the tv, then what came in the tv is no good anymore and its just something else to go wrong with the tv.