Supervisor Tech says *no LOS*, but ...

[UhClem]

I had a "High-def upgrade" install scheduled 3 weeks ago. The only good thing I can say about the tech is that he showed up. It went downhill and the Supervisor was called in. He goes up on the roof, walks around with gadget to his eye, shaking his head; comes down and tells me that I could get SD from the roof but not HD [my current SD is from a self-install tree mount 7 yrs ago]. He then walks the yard -- no good. Then proceeds to "close out" the install order with a "no LOS".

Disappointed, but not completely discouraged, I decided to pursue the tree-mount approach and posted a thread here titled "Upgrading tree-mount SD to HD (+SD)". The responses were "supportive" but not very encouraging.

While contemplating the horror of returning to Comcast (I really do want HD; shucks, I've got a 720p projector and a 1080p LCD), and, considering that all three DTV contractor techs I've dealt with have been incompetent, I figured there was a chance that this Supervisor could be a loser too.

I dragged myself up the ladder (with my knees, I don't *climb* anything), to the eastern edge of my roof, at the astronomically correct time of day and Eureka! (I can see!!). In picture #1 I have marked the 99/101/103 positions, at *eye-level* from the tree where my current SD (18" round) is, and where I had planned to put the HD Slimline. Note that, from a mounting point 18-22 feet above ground there would be clear LOS now, and quite a few years forward.

OK, did you notice that U-shaped "sweet spot" to the right? Check out pic #2. This was taken from the eastern edge of my roof, about halfway down (and north of) the peak. I have marked, individually, the positions of the 99, 101, & 103 (L to R) from my proposed roof mount point. Yes, I was standing (on the ladder :) ) but my chin was on the roof. The reason for the "vertical uncertainty" of these markings is because my "right on the money" twice-a-year "Sun day" is still a few days away, so I had to calculate, measure, and extrapolate. I would give even odds that the correct spot is just about one-third down from the top of each band. Even at the bottom of each range, there's 6-10 feet of headroom. Those are 65-80 feet tall Eastern Hemlocks; they'll still grow, but slowly (probably 3-6 inches per year).

So, now, I'm thinking, how should I approach DirecTV to schedule yet another installation attempt (there was another botch job two weeks before the "no LOS" shootdown)? I called "Retention" (CRG), laid out the whole scene, including the Sun plotting endeavor (irrefutable proof, I might have said), and they said "OK, no problem". I *was* pleasantly surprised. It's scheduled for Thursday, and I'm nervously wondering how Multiband and Murphy are going to F* me this time.

[David MacLeod]

good luck, I think this is you're best option. the tree mount has inherent issues. not only circumference growth bit spiral growth (while minimal) would affect it too. beech often has uneven bark growth which could cause pressurization on the mount. then a tree that tall has a lot of sail area on top and exerts a lot of leverage on mount area. while you may not see a measurable movement there would be vibration. if you were to top that tree, killing it, you might be ok but thats expensive.
just my humble opinion.

guy down the road has one mounted to tree and bragged to me that he keeps signal even in 20 mph winds......I told him mine takes 60 mph and he said his installer told him winds over 20 always lose signal.
it was tree mounted due to laziness, there had already been an old 18 inch dish there.

I used to do primestar and carried a chainsaw (covered rural maine) just for this situation.

[jimisham]

I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll even have to get the ladder out when "Sun Day" arrives.
Look at the roof, at the times, in the afternoon, when the sun is in the same location as each of the three satellites.
Any place on the roof, that has the sun shining on it, all three times, should work.
Then take pictures of the roof to show the installer where the sun shines all three times.

[carl6]

I agree you have adequately established you have LOS from the second photo. However I don't know that you will convince any installer to do the job as a result. Given that a supervisor has already "verified" no LOS, you may well have to go with a private company or contractor to put your dish up. If the regular installer declines again, start looking for a local custom shop to do the work. You may also have to order the upgrade through them, and the cost may be higher - but you'll get the desired outcome.

[joe diamond]

This is a job for the big guns,

You can prune those trees with a shotgun. Get a slimline & mast and install it on the tree...(a steel 2" pole would be better)...but peak the 101 sat and then select the 103c on your receiver and open fire. My personal favorite is 12ga BB but buck shot will work well also..... you just have to shoot better. Slugs are for real shooters and the 50cal muzzle loads go too far. Don't consider rifles unless you know your area.

Joe

[Fabuloso]

Sir why are the Techs and their supervisor incompetent?

what makes you think that just because your homeowner hack job somehow works when you mounted an 18" dish on a tree that you think you can get LOS with a KA/KU dish?

Assuming you installed and properly aimed the dish, what will you do when the trees move from the wind and you are no longer able to watch tv?

Unfortunately because of the limitations that satellite reception incurs you will not be able to receive DTV service. From my count according to your post 4 different people have told you that.

I feel those four people did you a favor by not installing it where it would not work. If they had instead of you complaining that you cant get your installation completed you would be complaining that your DTV service does not work.

So why dont you trust the insight of 4 different people who install DTV FOR A LIVING and either MOVE out of the Forrest you live in or CUT DOWN whatever tree(s) that the techs say are in the way. But do not call the technicians incompetent it just makes you look worse.:)

[rudeney]

This is a job for the big guns,

You can prune those trees with a shotgun. Get a slimline & mast and install it on the tree...(a steel 2" pole would be better)...but peak the 101 sat and then select the 103c on your receiver and open fire. My personal favorite is 12ga BB but buck shot will work well also..... you just have to shoot better. Slugs are for real shooters and the 50cal muzzle loads go too far. Don't consider rifles unless you know your area.

Joe

A real marksman would do this with a .22 pistol! :p

[Matt9876]

It can be done just work with a local tech/retailer and give him what he ask for ($$,bucket truck,whatever) and be prepared to readjust the alignment about every nine months.

It's done in the mountains of east Tn all the time...:grin:

[joe diamond]

A real marksman would do this with a .22 pistol! :p

You can't assume or expect too much.

I did roll in on a job while trees were being cut...big trees! I set up the rig using the published az. Mr. customer rolled in and asked about the trees north of the house...he had been told they were blocking the LOS. Neither tech #1 or the cx could use a compass.

Shotguns & lots of BB still my fav IF the woods keep going beyond the trees in the pic.

Joe

[taz291819]

Sir why are the Techs and their supervisor incompetent?

what makes you think that just because your homeowner hack job somehow works when you mounted an 18" dish on a tree that you think you can get LOS with a KA/KU dish?

So why dont you trust the insight of 4 different people who install DTV FOR A LIVING and either MOVE out of the Forrest you live in or CUT DOWN whatever tree(s) that the techs say are in the way. But do not call the technicians incompetent it just makes you look worse.:)

I looked at his pics, he's got more LOS than I do, and mine comes in fine. Yeah, I'll lose signal more often than most due to rain-fade, but I still get the service 98% of the year.

I'll post picks of how small of a "wedge" between trees I'm shooting through this weekend.

[jdspencer]

If the LOS is that tight where he can get 101 but not 99 and 103, he'll be in trouble when the trees grow a bit more.:)

[gtheel]

I had a similar situation with multiple techs and supervisors claiming no HD LOS (primarily for the 110 and 119). I convinced myself with the astronomical shadow test that my LOS to 99-103 was good, and purchased an installed my own Slimline dish and point with a borrowed receiver.

After I had done almost everything, all the tech had to do was run the extra coax and install the new receivers. Granted, my install was not up a ladder on a tree.

I do understand why many techs are hesitant to take a risk on an install that may not succeed and may have problems down the road, but it certainly is frustrating as a customer. It just depends on how badly you want it.

[boba]

I had a similar situation with multiple techs and supervisors claiming no HD LOS (primarily for the 110 and 119). I convinced myself with the astronomical shadow test that my LOS to 99-103 was good, and purchased an installed my own Slimline dish and point with a borrowed receiver.

After I had done almost everything, all the tech had to do was run the extra coax and install the new receivers. Granted, my install was not up a ladder on a tree.

I do understand why many techs are hesitant to take a risk on an install that may not succeed and may have problems down the road, but it certainly is frustrating as a customer. It just depends on how badly you want it.

Would you like to go to work and find at the end of the day you weren't going to get paid because someone decided the work you did was wrong? Why do you expect an installer to take that gamble?

[Mertzen]

Where in NH are you located. I'm a bit of an expert in 'hard to get' installs and I can work around HSP protocol. PM me.

[jdogg]

why dont you get a old tv tower to get the elevation you need, i mount the ka on them all day, in fact they slide right over the top. be way better than a tree and would last longer. depends on how bad you want hd dtv also i have heard of people using multiple dishes{18"} to get around trees, the first thing you need is a installer willing to do it, pay for the trip and i will help!

[taz291819]

why dont you get a old tv tower to get the elevation you need, i mount the ka on them all day, in fact they slide right over the top. be way better than a tree and would last longer. depends on how bad you want hd dtv also i have heard of people using multiple dishes{18"} to get around trees, the first thing you need is a installer willing to do it, pay for the trip and i will help!

I agree with you. While imo you do have LOS, I'd put up a tower. You can probably even get the tower for free, just find a home owner that has one that they aren't using. The guys that work on our tower (I work for a television station) get them all the time for free, just have to put in the labor to take it down and re-locate it. With those towers, you can hit 50 feet without needing guy-wires, though I recommend guy-wires for anything over 30 feet.

btw, as promised, here's a pic of my LOS. The trees are about 15-20 feet from the dish, a lot closer than looks in the pic. Sorry for the bad PQ, taken from my cell phone.

[joe diamond]

Would you like to go to work and find at the end of the day you weren't going to get paid because someone decided the work you did was wrong? Why do you expect an installer to take that gamble?

Worse than that,

"We require one year clearance from trees and would like three years."

"Sir, what are the growth rates of the trees indigenous to this climate zone?"

"What does indigenous mean to you?"

"Near here"

"I would have to look it up. Are there any other stupid questions?"

" Sir, are you a MASTEC contractor or an employee?"

"Joe that is enough stupid questions! Are there other any other stupid questions from anybody besides Joe?"

Joe

[UhClem]

(I convinced "Retention" (CRG) to schedule another high-def upgrade installation ...) It's scheduled for Thursday, and ...

(Sorry to have taken this long to follow-up; diversions, distractions, etc.). Thursday came, and everything almost went in the crapper right from the beginning, but (I'll give you the short version first)

99c:
1-8 94 93 87 91 89 89 85 89
9-16 89 87 85 87 92 90 NA NA

103c:
1-8 95 96 86 92 89 95 83 92
9-16 87 94 85 92 89 94 NA NA

101:
1-8 97 98 96 100 94 100 97 100
9-16 95 98 97 100 95 100 95 100
17-24 93 100 94 100 94 100 95 100
25-32 95 100 92 100 94 100 95 100

(tuner 1/2 differences negligible)

The long version:

Schedule was for 12-4pm; tech calls at 10:30am saying he's nearby, can he come early. I tell him "Yes". I go out to meet him in the driveway. First, I have to put his mind at ease about the old tree mount, and the tree-line LOS (non-) obstacle. He's no longer cynical, just semi-skeptical. My pictures and short astronomy lesson help further.

As he's getting out of his van, work order in hand, I verify that he has the equipment needed: AU9-SL3 (check!) and proper under-eave (UE) mount [DTVUEM or SLMTUE] (WHOOPS! -- Oh crap!) And, I had confirmed with DTV, on Wednesday, that this had been specified, and conveyed, to the installation contractor. In fact, it was DTV/CRG that recommended this mount when I explained the logistics of my situation.

The tech said he didn't know anything about this, and proceeded to try to convince/coerce me to accept a roof mount. I refused, stating that DTV specified the UE mount, I wanted the UE mount, and I needed to speak to his supervisor. At this point, I got a glance at his work order, and actually *saw* the SLMTUE listed. After I had spoken to both a supervisor at Multiband (DTV's contractor) and the tech's boss (a Multiband sub-contractor), the boss said he would drive over with the UE mount.
( This UE mount attaches to a vertical outside wall, not a rafter or the eave itself.)

While we waited, I showed the tech the mounting location, and proposed my solution, which consisted of a length of 2"x6" intended to span 3 horizontal cross-braces, and cut to fit the roofline. I had prepared it the previous evening, and the paint was probably dry. The mast foot would attach to this. (I have vertical plank siding, on horiz braces.) The tech liked it, and proceeded to start the (straightforward) inside cable run.

30-40 minutes later, the boss arrived with the UE mount. I could see his "eyes rolling" over the (apparent to him) tree obstacles. I presented my evidence to him, and he OK'd the tech to proceed, wishing us luck, and departing.

The rest was uneventful, except for the tech's surprised, and relieved, expression when he got good signal; and, of course, my own satisfaction when I (finally) saw decent (though not stellar) signal strength screens.

Although I had a few quibbles with the work he did, and especially what he didn't do (ignoring the work order, and expecting me to do likewise), I did appreciate his (subsequent) attitude, and that I do seem to finally have HD. (At least, for as long as Mother Nature smiles on me.) I tipped him 40.

Thank you all for your input, observations, and reality checks. I'll post (belated) follow-ups to some of your (above) replies in a bit. I'm going to eat something, and watch some more HD:) [Remember, I haven't had *any* TV in the house for 9 months (not even SD).]

[HRJustin]

Those signals look fantastic I think mine are lower for the 99c and 103c. I have good open view for signal to I just haven't needed to adjust it as I don't have HD access. My dish is also on a pole mount I think the periodic removal of snow in the winter is what lowered my signals lol.

If you can post some pics of the dish all mounted we all like pictures :lol:. From the signals you posted I dont think you will have to much of a problem with rain fade.

[jdogg]

if you want dtv, mount it on a tv tower.... or get a saw looks like you wont miss a few

[4120 woodrow ct]

keep in mind that you may have a LOS... but is it valid to DirecTVs Standards? DirecTV wants 10 degrees clearance each way. when 5 degrees will usually do fine.. but DirecTV has standards for these things. I let them go in at 5 degrees, unless the obstruction is a fixed object. anyway its usually the field supervisors call...

[joe diamond]

keep in mind that you may have a LOS... but is it valid to DirecTVs Standards? DirecTV wants 10 degrees clearance each way. when 5 degrees will usually do fine.. but DirecTV has standards for these things. I let them go in at 5 degrees, unless the obstruction is a fixed object. anyway its usually the field supervisors call...
There you go again,

Where are these "Directv Standards?" I have seen memos on walls and verbal discussions.

Where does Directv publish, as part of a contract: compression fittings required. free pole mounts, DVRs require a second FREE line, phone lines must be run for FREE? And the stuff I forgot.

How about keep your fly up and your shirt in? Another Directv standard?

How about...."...persons engaging in Directv installations must verify that they have paid all subcontractors before a performance bond will be released?"

Idiots!

Could you just publish these "standards?"

Joe

[4120 woodrow ct]

There you go again,

There I go again? Huh Today is my first day posting... what do you mean again?

Where are these "Directv Standards?" I have seen memos on walls and verbal discussions.

Where does Directv publish, as part of a contract: compression fittings required. free pole mounts, DVRs require a second FREE line, phone lines must be run for FREE? And the stuff I forgot.

that info is usually located inside of the contract that DirecTV has with their contractors... its a long tedious contract that is open ended usually. and the last one I read was well over 20 pages... but it is in there. I have no clue where it is posted for customers, other than the definition of what a "free professional standard installation" is..

[UhClem]

good luck, I think this is you're best option. the tree mount has inherent issues. not only circumference growth bit spiral growth (while minimal) would affect it too. beech often has uneven bark growth which could cause pressurization on the mount. then a tree that tall has a lot of sail area on top and exerts a lot of leverage on mount area. while you may not see a measurable movement there would be vibration. ...

guy down the road has one mounted to tree and bragged to me that he keeps signal even in 20 mph winds......I told him mine takes 60 mph and he said his installer told him winds over 20 always lose signal. ...

David, thanks for your insight; especially since you're familiar with the beech. You really got me thinking when you mention "circumferential growth". While I am *far* from a botanist, I wouldn't expect much effect from the new growth (on the circumference) directly on the fasteners (it should just "grow around them"); but the radial aspect of the circ growth could really play havoc on the contact points of the trunk surface and the "foreigner" (either a platform base similar to what I used on the SD, or the actual 4-6 mast foot mounting holes in a bare attach). Any uneveness in the pressures applied by that new growth radially on the contact points will translate directly into misalignment. Now that you've caused my brain to churn, I'm thinking that a platform attached with plain nails, or some sort of "high-compression" springs or spring washers decoupling the platform or mast foot from the trunk surface would absorb that radial pressure and minimize misalignment.
This is fun, but it's starting to hurt:) .

The mast of a beech is actually pretty sparse (vs. e.g. a hemlock) with regard to wind resistance, and I would expect only negligible vibration effect. What were the characteristics (type, size, maturity) of your neighbor's tree? And, is his mount itself solid/stable? There's no substitute for actual experience, as long as the parameters are applicable.

I agree you have adequately established you have LOS from the second photo. However I don't know that you will convince any installer to do the job as a result. Given that a supervisor has already "verified" no LOS,
Thanks for this reality check. Just because you're right doesn't guarantee that you win. And, this is exactly why I like to "over-prepare". Rather than just say "But there weren't any shadows on that spot.", my research was rigorous, my measurements were accurate, and, fortunately, my pictures were convincing. Also, neither the tech nor his boss (the sub-contractor) were stubborn fools.

you may well have to go with a private company or contractor to put your dish up. If the regular installer declines again, start looking for a local custom shop to do the work. You may also have to order the upgrade through them, and the cost may be higher - but you'll get the desired outcome.

One would think so, or, at least, hope so. But, the day before the scheduled install, I actually tracked down the only non-bigbox dealer in the area, and spoke to their installer. When I described my situation (existing SD-(TiVo)DVR + new HR23), he tried to tell me that I had to give up on my DTiVo if I wanted a HD-DVR, because the only acceptable dish/lnb would be a SWiMline-3. I tried to tell him he was wrong, but he gives me the "Hey, I do this for a living, and I know my job". I thanked him for his time, and told him I hoped to call him next (ie, this) week. That will be fun; I'll *try* not to be a schmuck:).

[David MacLeod]

his was actually on a large fairly mature sugar maple and foot of mast was bolted to tree, there was one support hooked somehow. went by other day and this was down, not sure why he's not a person I talk to often.
while beech cover is less than a lot, really due to small leaf shape causing less sail area, there is still movement. and the top exerts a lot of leverage on lower sections. even if the vibration did not kill signal it would eventually wear on alignment. but a 2 foot movement, which can easily happen, could easily move mount 1/2 inch causing losses. it does not take much for these dishes.
you might be fine, especially if you top the tree, but I would cut trees down before doing it. I love trees but tv is important.
in reality these tree mounts are just a bad idea.

[Tom Robertson]

UhClem, while "we're all bozos on the bus", we (which clearly includes you, now) are capable of getting the job done and done right. Good job!

Cheers,
Tom

[David MacLeod]

there really are advantages to self install :)

[joe diamond]

There I go again? Huh Today is my first day posting... what do you mean again?



that info is usually located inside of the contract that DirecTV has with their contractors... its a long tedious contract that is open ended usually. and the last one I read was well over 20 pages... but it is in there. I have no clue where it is posted for customers, other than the definition of what a "free professional standard installation" is..

I didn't mean you personally,

It was a rhetorical grunt.....I meant to point out that even the contents of the standard FREE professional installation get expanded.

And the definition is framed in small print for customers.
When I tell customers that I plan to attach the cables to the side of the house and tack it to base boards they are sometimes shocked. What, run wires inside walls? And have to pay money? Oh no, everything is FREE!

This has been going on for a long time.

Joe...and welcome!