Yet another SWM question/problem, please help

[Non Jeff]

I have spent a week re-reading everything on SWM8 installations, and I'm stuck. Sorry for yet another question on SWM installation, but I just can't figure this out. I know I'm overlooking something, and hope someone can spot my error.

Last summer I installed a SWM-8 from my Slimline 5 dish, and round 72.5 dish since we still got locals from that satellite at the time. I kept my WB68 multiswitch and installed it in parallel for future use.

My equipment at the time were three H10's, an HR20, two H20's and two H23's. I also use off-air. Installation was a breeze thanks to all the great info on dbstalk, and things worked flawlessly.

I installed my SWM-8 inside my home near my cable distribution center. The four runs from the dish to the SWM-8 are about 20-25 feet. I installed the PI about 20 feet from the SWM-8. I used only one SWM port and terminated the other, running it to a SWS-8 splitter. I put my three H10's on the legacy ports and diplexed in off-air. I put the HR20, the two H20's and two H23's on the SWS-8 splitter and terminated the unused ports there. I like to use off-air on all my HDTV's from time to time, so I diplexed out at the TV's. No problems.

My locals are switching from 72.5 and so I was notified I needed an equpiment upgrade, which in my case was just new boxes to replace the H10's. When the installer arrived last week, he looked at my setup with amazement. He knew somewhat about the SWM-8 but had never seen one. He said he was really only authorized to set up my new H23's through the WB68, which I expected. So we did this without any problems running them through the WB68. However, I do want to keep off-air, so after he left I then re-configured my setup.

Obviously I previously had six tuners to my SWM-8, and now I have nine. Therefore I decided to run my two old H20's through the WB68 multiswitch using the BBC's, leaving my SWM-8 with seven tuners to feed.

So, to recap, I have the SWM-8 and WB68 installed parallel from my Slimline 5 dish about 20 feet inside the house. PI is installed about 20 feet from my SWM-8. One SWM port on the SWM-8 feeds a SWS-8 splitter, the other is terminated. Antenna connected to the off-air port. Flex port is detached since I don't need the 72.5 sat anymore. No legacy ports used anymore.

Two H20's attached to the WB68 with the BBC's installed before off-air is diplexed in. Both were set up without problems and work fine.

Five H23's and one HR20 connected to the SWS-8 splitter, terminated the two unused ports on the 8-way splitter.

Diplexer used at each HDTV where the H23's are, with off-air to the TV, and sat to the H23.

Here's the problem. IF I use off air, I have trouble getting sat signals to any random box. Usually about 3 / 5 boxes work, the other two won't. This changes from box to box randomly, for no apparent reason. If I disconnect antenna from the off-air port of the SWM-8, OR take out the diplexer at each location, then all work fine.

Why is diplexing screwing things up? I can't figure this out. I'm using D*-approved, high frequency splitters and diplexers everywhere. I'm using high-quality compression fittings and RG6 everywhere. I'm stumped, and can't figure out what I'm overlooking.

Any ideas? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thx.

[BattleZone]

There's no such thing as a DirecTV-approved diplexer, because diplexing is totally unsupported.

Having said that, is works. But the issue that you're running into is signal loss. Every time the signal is split or diplexed, you lose a HUGE amount of signal, and you've got several cascasded high-loss splits going on.

At the very least, you need a pre-amp on your antenna, and even that may not be enough, but it's the right place to start. If that still isn't enough, you'll need a distribution amp as well. This is before the signal even gets to the SWM8.

You need to raise your signal level by 15-20 db. Decibels (db) are measured logrithmicly; a 10 db loss means only 1/10th of the signal is getting through. A 20 db loss means only 1/100th of the signal is getting through, etc.

[veryoldschool]

I think you just found out why DirecTV no longer supports diplexing. The SWM8 is for commercial [MDU] installs.

[veryoldschool]

There's no such thing as a DirecTV-approved diplexer, because diplexing is totally unsupported.

Having said that, is works. But the issue that you're running into is signal loss. Every time the signal is split or diplexed, you lose a HUGE amount of signal, and you've got several cascasded high-loss splits going on.

At the very least, you need a pre-amp on your antenna, and even that may not be enough, but it's the right place to start. If that still isn't enough, you'll need a distribution amp as well. This is before the signal even gets to the SWM8.

You need to raise your signal level by 15-20 db. Decibels (db) are measured logrithmicly; a 10 db loss means only 1/10th of the signal is getting through. A 20 db loss means only 1/100th of the signal is getting through, etc.
You may have missed this:
Here's the problem. IF I use off air, I have trouble getting sat signals to any random box.
"Seems like" there may be a problem with the 2.3 MHz comm signal, but :shrug:

[veryoldschool]

I'm not sure if this would make it work, "but":
You're losing 3dB by not using the second SWM output with the termination.
If you were to change to 4-way splitters and use both outputs, the levels would be higher. Would this be enough? :shrug:

[dettxw]

Very nice write-up.
Like stated before, diplexing is not supported but usually works. Don't think that you mentioned the diplexer model though. Any chance that the diplexers are not up to snuff?

BTW, start thinking about separate OTA runs as you may want to take advantage of future capabilities that will use those frequencies.

[Non Jeff]

Diplexers are the Perfect Vision PVDP2 I bought from SolidSignal, sold as "Directv Approved" back in the day when Directv supported diplexing.

That's probably a good idea to try using both SWM ports with 4-way splitters, VOS. Thx. I will give that a try.

Yes, my problem is not with my OTA signal strength (which bats about 100% with my pre-amp), its with sat signal strength which somehow is getting blocked by diplexing OTA. What I can't figure is why my previous system had zero problems pushing satellite to six receivers while diplexing, but now adding just one more tuner to the SWM-8 seems to have hurt sat signals while diplexing. Take out the diplexing, no problem. But I have great OTA and enjoy watching it for certain things over MPEG4 signal, not to mention getting stations not offered via Directv. Would hate to lose it. I already knew Directv does not support any diplexing now, but its proven to still work, and in theory, should work. I just can't figure out what's wrong. Its a head scratcher...

Could improper grounding of the SMW-8 have this affect? I know there is some kind of polarity issue going on too, as testing often shows a loss of even voltage at times from certain satellites, primarily 99 and 103c.

[netraa]

I'm thinking out loud here so some of the guys that know this stuff a lot better than me can help me out on this...

each different IRD model, and each IRD itself for that matter, has a different RF threshold. the point at which it can or can not 'hear' the signal being offered. Somewhere in that is the signal to noise ratio threshold for the IRD.

The OTA diplexing is 'noise' because it is outside of the desired spectrum for the IRD. Yes, it's good noise for something else, but it is noise.

Perhaps the H23's just have a lower RF threshold and your one more split/diplexer is pushing them over the limit.

If I am understanding what you did right, you changed out the H10's to 23's adding them to the swm and moved the 20's to the 6X8.

your move did more than add 1 tuner to the swm8:
you added 3 different runs of coax, untested on the swm8 to the system (the H10's)
removed 2 lines that were in service. (the h20's)
changed out/added 5 diplexers


lots of places for a gremlin to hide.
the 23's may just flat out have a lower RF threshold, 'leaky' diplexer, noisy line, RF interference from an outside source, one of the diplexers is eating the control frequency, bad port on the splitter that wasn't in use previously.....


If i'm totally off base here, at least it will be one hell of a learning experience.

[Non Jeff]

I'm thinking out loud here so some of the guys that know this stuff a lot better than me can help me out on this...

each different IRD model, and each IRD itself for that matter, has a different RF threshold. the point at which it can or can not 'hear' the signal being offered. Somewhere in that is the signal to noise ratio threshold for the IRD.

The OTA diplexing is 'noise' because it is outside of the desired spectrum for the IRD. Yes, it's good noise for something else, but it is noise.

Perhaps the H23's just have a lower RF threshold and your one more split/diplexer is pushing them over the limit.

If I am understanding what you did right, you changed out the H10's to 23's adding them to the swm and moved the 20's to the 6X8.

your move did more than add 1 tuner to the swm8:
you added 3 different runs of coax, untested on the swm8 to the system (the H10's)
removed 2 lines that were in service. (the h20's)
changed out/added 5 diplexers


lots of places for a gremlin to hide.
the 23's may just flat out have a lower RF threshold, 'leaky' diplexer, noisy line, RF interference from an outside source, one of the diplexers is eating the control frequency, bad port on the splitter that wasn't in use previously.....


If i'm totally off base here, at least it will be one hell of a learning experience.

Actually the number of diplexers used has dropped from 3 to 2 (not counting diplexers at the boxes).

I removed the three H10's from the legacy ports, which are now completely empty. Subtract three diplexers.

I removed two H20's from the SWS-8 connected to the SWM-8.

I put those two H20's on the paralleled WB68 multiswitch. From the multiswitch, I added the BBC's to the ports, and connected them to a diplexer to join OTA signal, and from there to the H20's. Add two diplexers.

Thus I had four tuners using the SWM-8 (HR20 and two H23's). I added the three new H23's to the SWM-8 for a total of 7 tuners total. No diplexers added.

Only one new connection to the SMW-8, which was on the legacy port (the other two legacy ports went to the paralled WB68).

So in summary, I'm actually using one less diplexer, and only added one new run from the SMW-8. But your point is well taken - there are so many places that could be causing the interference, and I've wondered about a bad port on my splitter, too. Thanks for your thoughts - anything is appreciated.

[veryoldschool]

"One thing" is that the diplexers at each receiver are trying to send the 2.3 MHz comm signal through a port [with filtering] that is for 950 MHz and above. This means there is a lot of loss in this signal.

[HoTat2]

"One thing" is that the diplexers at each receiver are trying to send the 2.3 MHz comm signal through a port [with filtering] that is for 950 MHz and above. This means there is a lot of loss in this signal.

That's what I suspect, assuming the DC power pass going through the satellite leg of the diplexer is totally filtered for RF, the 2.3 MHz control signal for the SWM-8 module is trying to communicate upstream from the receivers through an RF port filtered to accept 950-2150 MHz.

Are the receivers which keep randomly losing the satellite signal when OTA is diplexed in the ones connected to the SWM-8?

[David MacLeod]

would a diplexer hooked up wrong (swapped terminals) cause this? I've never thought to ask before.

[Non Jeff]

That's what I suspect, assuming the DC power pass going through the satellite leg of the diplexer is totally filtered for RF, the 2.3 MHz control signal for the SWM-8 module is trying to communicate upstream from the receivers through an RF port filtered to accept 950-2150 MHz.

Are the receivers which keep randomly losing the satellite signal when OTA is diplexed in the ones connected to the SWM-8?

Yes, the receivers losing signal are only those using the SWM-8. And they have problems randomly. One day it will be two or three receivers, the next day it will be a different 2 or 3. The receivers using the WB68 (and diplexed) are fine.

So basically the comm signal for the SWM-8 is being filtered out by the diplexer? (2.3 MHz will not pass through the 950-2250 MHz range of the satellite arm of the diplexer?) If so, that makes sense, but wonder why others haven't had similar trouble diplexing.... seems like no diplexing would work if that is the case, yet we know many have done so.

Is the fact that I consistently lose even polarity on satellites significant? After you choose your sat dish and multiswitch in the H23, it "verifies" your choices by testing it, and brings up the results. I consistently see errors on the even polarity for 99 and 103c, and it reports an error on tuner 1. I read grounding issues can affect polarity, yet it should bother all receivers I would think. Also, weakness.com talks about getting a "polarity locker" that may be needed between the 5LNB and high-freq splitters - could this be what is needed?

Thanks to everyone for their brain and thoughts....

[houskamp]

also possible that extra "junk" is coming down the OTA.. try running it without the OTA connected to input of diplexors.. this will tell you if it's the ota or the connections..

[veryoldschool]

The SWM8 IS a polarity locker, since it's powering the LNBs [through the four cables].

[veryoldschool]

also possible that extra "junk" is coming down the OTA.. try running it without the OTA connected to input of diplexors.. this will tell you if it's the ota or the connections..
You may have a point here since "it seems" if the OTA input is removed, the problem goes away.
Adding a filter [blocking below 50 MHz] might help.

[eakes]

Since the "problem" seems to randomly move from receiver to receiver and goes away when the antenna lead is removed, I would suspect there is extraneous signals being picked up by the antenna and being fed into the system that is causing interference with the signal channels from the SWM. As the actual SWM channel used to deliver signal to a particular receiver will change from time to time, the "problem" will travel with the channel(s) being interfered with, thus the "problem" seems to randomly effect different receivers.

One could use an RF spectrum analyzer and look at the coax at one or more receivers and actually see which channel(s) are being effected. One could then apply a filter in the antenna connection to minimize the interference - maybe!

I believe I read that there was a preamp on the antenna. What is the situation if the preamp is removed and the un-amped antenna connected?

[houskamp]

also try FM traps.. that was what was killing mine (local FM station)

[Non Jeff]

Yes I have a pre-amp (25 dB) at the antenna in the attic of my garage feeding down to my basement utility room where my cable distribution center is located. The OTA run is probably a good 100 feet, and its best to amplify the pure signals. Then there is a second pre-amp (10 dB) right before my OTA 8-way splitter located at the distribution center. All my ATSC tuners in my HDTV's and the H20's pick up my locals in my secondary market (60 miles away) at near 100% strength using a DB4 antenna, and oddly the locals for my city (which are strangely located 30 miles away) only come in at 75% because I must use a smaller UHF antenna for those. I can't use the FM Trap for some reason, as it creates interference on analog (well, back when I had to use analog), but also affects digital signals as well. Not using the FM trap does have its advantages, as I get great FM reception through the coaxial.

This is exactly what I was thinking - something in that OTA line is garbage, and leaking into my sat signals. It is definitely not a specific H23 since it has occurred in all boxes at somepoint. Perhaps I'll fiddle with the FM trap since others have had problems with it. Its been a long time since I monkeyed with that. Good idea, thx.

I am going to try something - I will disconnect the OTA and setup all the receivers without OTA, one at a time. AFTER that, I will then reconnect OTA diplexing and see what happens. It occurred to me that I have always set up the boxes while OTA was being diplexed, and today re-read a trouble shooting article posted here which gave steps to try to figure out if the problem was a faulty SWM or a receiver. One of those steps was to do a "clean" setup, so I will try this. Should have done this in the first place actually....

I have checked my ground and its solid. All my cable is high quality as are my splitters and diplexers and compression connectors, and its always worked without any apparent RF interference. If some new signal garbage contaminant from the OTA signal has entered the picture, I don't think I would be able to trace it. But I'm feeling fairly certain that the system is "shielded" as best as possible.

Regarding these so-called polarity lockers - first, they're very expensive; second, it said it would rarely be needed in a residential setting since it might be necessary for very long runs between the dish and splitters, thus its more for MDU. VOS mentioned the SMW IS a polarity locker, and that's exactly what my uneducated sense told me based on the 13V and 18V inputs on the SWM8. My run between dish and splitter is only about 20-25 feet. So scrap that idea.

k, off to hack off my family again by forbidding any TV watching once again while I test my system. My daughter just asked, "Dad, why don't you just call someone...." - she just doesn't understand its now become a mission. Besides, I don't think my local installers are familiar enough with SWM setups. I will post my results....

Thanks to everyone for helping, it is much appreciated.

[RobertE]

Calling someone isn't going to do anything for you. DirecTv policy will be to remove all the diplexers.

[HoTat2]

Calling someone isn't going to do anything for you. DirecTv policy will be to remove all the diplexers.

And considering that the problematic receivers are fed from an officially unsupported SWM module, would the DirecTV techs even touch it?

[RobertE]

And considering that the problematic receivers are fed from an officially unsupported SWM module, would the DirecTV techs even touch it?

Thats currently a grey area, one that will become much clearer next week. ;)

[Non Jeff]

Eureka! Problem solved. :hurah:

First I went to the attic and fiddled with the FM trap - whether on or off my receivers could not be setup - same problem. THEN I bypassed each of my pre-amps, one at a time, and then both, setting up a receiver after each change. Same results. It is apparent I need both pre-amps as my OTA signal strength suffered, and my two locals which are the weakest pixelated.

THEN I disconnected OTA from the SWM-8, but left the diplexers connected at each receiver. No go, same problems.

THEN I disconnected the diplexers at each receiver, bypassed them completely and just ran a straight sat feed to the receiver. All receivers set up perfectly.

THEN I reconnected the OTA at the SMW-8. Did not reset receivers. No problem.

THEN I reconnected the diplexers at each receiver. Did not reset receivers. No problem.

Moral of the story - first set up the H23's with satellite feed only. After that, you can connect OTA at the SMW and use diplexers at each receiver just fine. I knew it would be something simple.

I actually tried this at first, but my error was that I was always resetting the receiver after I added back the OTA. Not good thinking. Dumb. :nono2:

For reasons I don't understand, having OTA connected and diplexed during setup interferes with the setup. Apparently the OTA (specifically the diplexers I think) interferes with sat signals reaching the receiver during setup. Remove the OTA and diplexers, the receivers get full sat signals and sets up normally. Then adding back the OTA causes no interference at all. Now I know the sequence of setup, just don't know why. But don't care either.

Anyway, thanks to everyone, and all the time spent thinking about my problem. I'm sorry I wasted everyone's time when it was a dumb error on my part to begin with. This forum is simply the best, and I've learned everything from here. It is greatly appreciated and I thank everyone who helped. (So does my daughter.)

Oh, forgot to mention that the installer from last week just happened to call tonight - he was so interested and fascinated with my SMW-8 setup that he wanted to know if I ever got my receivers working. I was impressed by that - he takes interest in his job to do it right, for his own edification. I told him no, but I am going to call him back tomorrow and tell him the simple solution.

Thanks again everyone.

[veryoldschool]

[two cents, and not worth more] Diplexers don't pass 2.3 MHz very well. :)

[CJTE]

I think you just found out why DirecTV no longer supports diplexing. The SWM8 is for commercial [MDU] installs.

I'm confused.
The SWM8 is for MDU installs?
So DirecTV is expecting MDU's to only have 8 tuners!?

Why would the SWM8 be any more for MDU installs than the SWM5 (I believe that's the other one, right?)

Isn't the theory behind the SWM systems that most houses/buildings come wired with 1 coax per TV location (In houses this would most likely be the main/great/living room and master bedroom at the cheapest) (in apt's this would be the living room and mast. bedroom).
Therefore save the installers time and cost of cable by using a multiswitch that could pass signal to both DVR tuners over a single wire.


I just had a thought of awesomeness.
Would it not be badass for DirecTV to make a SWiM signal converter (or receiver) that could take the signal from the SWiM and break it back down to 2 seperate feeds for legacy equipment?
Yes. Yes it would.

[CJTE]

Eureka! Problem solved. :hurah:

"" Lengthy explanation of problem solving ""

"" Grattitude ""

Oh, forgot to mention that the installer from last week just happened to call tonight - he was so interested and fascinated with my SMW-8 setup that he wanted to know if I ever got my receivers working. I was impressed by that - he takes interest in his job to do it right, for his own edification. I told him no, but I am going to call him back tomorrow and tell him the simple solution.

Thanks again everyone.

You call THAT the simple solution??

:lol:

//

Nonetheless, awesome job on critical thinking.

[Non Jeff]

[two cents, and not worth more] Diplexers don't pass 2.3 MHz very well. :)

I believe you said that from the start. :) And its worth way more than two cents. Now I know. Thx.

[Non Jeff]

You call THAT the simple solution??

:lol:

//

Nonetheless, awesome job on critical thinking.

ha ha, it was a simple solution, considering all the time I wasted experimenting for a solution, when all I had to do was take out the dang diplexers. Maybe you're being sarcastic, but its hardly an awesome job at critical problem solving, lol. More like a slow learner...

I hope my long explanation can help other newbies like me if they have the same problem.

[Non Jeff]

Calling someone isn't going to do anything for you. DirecTv policy will be to remove all the diplexers.

...which actually is the solution. But I doubt they would then tell me all I had to do was add the diplexers afterwards.

What is Directv's problem with folks who want to have OTA locals in HD? Seems like they do everything to discourage it. I know its redundant, but they don't provide every local HD station, such as the substations.

BTW, my installer is not a Directv tech - they are a local private independent communications company. They were more than happy to help actually, they just had no experience with the SMW-8.

[veryoldschool]

I'm confused.
The SWM8 is for MDU installs?
So DirecTV is expecting MDU's to only have 8 tuners!?

Why would the SWM8 be any more for MDU installs than the SWM5 (I believe that's the other one, right?)

Isn't the theory behind the SWM systems that most houses/buildings come wired with 1 coax per TV location (In houses this would most likely be the main/great/living room and master bedroom at the cheapest) (in apt's this would be the living room and mast. bedroom).
Therefore save the installers time and cost of cable by using a multiswitch that could pass signal to both DVR tuners over a single wire.


I just had a thought of awesomeness.
Would it not be badass for DirecTV to make a SWiM signal converter (or receiver) that could take the signal from the SWiM and break it back down to 2 seperate feeds for legacy equipment?
Yes. Yes it would.
SWM8s are for MDU systems. They use "stacks" of them. The SWM5 never made it out of test markets before it died.
SWMLNBs are for residential installs [and have no OTA port].
As for your "bad ass" idea:
It would never go anywhere. SWM receivers are already here to replace legacy receivers.
SWM8s may move into the residential markets soon as will the SWM16, since there are new features coming out that will only work with SWiM systems, and diplexing will become a thing of the past, since it will interfere with these new features.

[veryoldschool]

What is Directv's problem with folks who want to have OTA locals in HD? Seems like they do everything to discourage it. I know its redundant, but they don't provide every local HD station, such as the substations.
As I just posted ^ OTA will interfere with the new features that DirecTV is coming out with for SWiM systems. "So" it's not that DirecTV has anything against OTA, since they still offer the AM21 add-on OTA tuners, "But" diplexing is the "no-no".

[RobertE]

...which actually is the solution. But I doubt they would then tell me all I had to do was add the diplexers afterwards.

What is Directv's problem with folks who want to have OTA locals in HD? Seems like they do everything to discourage it. I know its redundant, but they don't provide every local HD station, such as the substations.

BTW, my installer is not a Directv tech - they are a local private independent communications company. They were more than happy to help actually, they just had no experience with the SMW-8.

DirecTv is in the Sat tv business, not the OTA buisness. As VOS points out there are other considerations as to why diplexing is not supported.

I would not be the least bit surprised if your diplexing fails again in the comming days.

[dsw2112]

I'm confused.
The SWM8 is for MDU installs?
So DirecTV is expecting MDU's to only have 8 tuners!?.

Yes, SWM8's are for MDU only at this point in time. They are additive and can be placed in special racks for MDU expandability to give as many tuners as is necessary for the MDU.

Therefore save the installers time and cost of cable by using a multiswitch that could pass signal to both DVR tuners over a single wire.

In the past D* has not care how much time it took an installer to complete a job... I don't know that they care any more now, but there is a paradigm shift happening in regards to SWM. Full details have not been released, but many are hoping for some good news in the near future.

[BattleZone]

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/fmc-6_Zoom.gif

Here is a pic of one of the SWM expansion chassis. It will hold 6 SWM-8's.

[Non Jeff]

DirecTv is in the Sat tv business, not the OTA buisness. As VOS points out there are other considerations as to why diplexing is not supported.

I would not be the least bit surprised if your diplexing fails again in the comming days.

If they are not in the OTA business, why do they offer the AM21? :)
But your point is well taken. What I really meant was why Directv seems to be less concerned with OTA considerations now, whereas previously they have always made sure their systems integrated OTA.

Yes, I'm worried about the diplexing failing also, when the new SWM features come out. What is the solution for OTA once those features come out and preclude diplexers? Running a separate coaxial line just for OTA? That would be impossible for me, and I'm sure alot of others.

[David MacLeod]

If they are not in the OTA business, why do they offer the AM21? :)
But your point is well taken. What I really meant was why Directv seems to be less concerned with OTA considerations now, whereas previously they have always made sure their systems integrated OTA.

Yes, I'm worried about the diplexing failing also, when the new SWM features come out. What is the solution for OTA once those features come out and preclude diplexers? Running a separate coaxial line just for OTA? That would be impossible for me, and I'm sure alot of others.

I see them not doing anything on this, they will provide a way to watch the signal (am21) but will not worry about carrying the ota signal over THEIR distribution lines.
as time goes on more and more LiL's are added, I think this is their solution and the only one they will support.
just an opinion.

[Non Jeff]

I see them not doing anything on this, they will provide a way to watch the signal (am21) but will not worry about carrying the ota signal over THEIR distribution lines.
as time goes on more and more LiL's are added, I think this is their solution and the only one they will support.
just an opinion.

This is what I was wondering too. Seems like they want single wire solutions, which is great, but have dropped the inclusion of OTA signals in that single wire solution. If OTA is going to interfere with their new features, then why the Off Air port and built in diplexer on the SWM-8, (which is now supported by Directv in residential installations)? If diplexers are now a no-no, then why is it built into the supported SWM-8? I would think that if they no longer want folks to diplex in OTA cuz it will interefere with some of their new features, they would not support the SWM-8 any longer.:confused:

[David MacLeod]

while present swm-8 has the ota in I would think it could be disabled with firmware if needed. iirc the pics of the swm-16 did not have ota input.
many d* branded units had usb ports that were pretty much useless, they were there but not used. same scenario could apply here, component is there but unused.
again, just an opinion.

[veryoldschool]

Even before SWMs, diplexing was "out", as the BBCs were to be mounted on the receivers.
There once was a SWM5 tested for home use. It had no OTA input.
The SWM8 was not for home use and the SWMLNB [again no OTA] was.
Changing over from a "standard" installation to a SWM would free up a coax for many.
Some are able to use indoor antenna.
I'm sorry you have problems running a second coax, but even in the old days, this was the preferred method.

[David MacLeod]

I am diplexed, and I will say its not the best method. I did it, honestly, for the ease of using the swm for it.
it adds unneeded complexity and more potential points for failure.

[BattleZone]

If they are not in the OTA business, why do they offer the AM21? :)
But your point is well taken. What I really meant was why Directv seems to be less concerned with OTA considerations now, whereas previously they have always made sure their systems integrated OTA.

The fact is that almost 90% of US homes are served HD locals over the satellite via DirecTV (and more being added on a regular basis), and DirecTV needs that bandwidth on the cable to add additional channels and services.

The right solution has ALWAYS been to run OTA on its own cable, and of course it is *possible*. Whether you choose to accept the options to make that happen is another matter altogether.

[Non Jeff]

The fact is that almost 90% of US homes are served HD locals over the satellite via DirecTV (and more being added on a regular basis), and DirecTV needs that bandwidth on the cable to add additional channels and services.

The right solution has ALWAYS been to run OTA on its own cable, and of course it is *possible*. Whether you choose to accept the options to make that happen is another matter altogether.

I believe you mean that Directv can provide HD locals to over 90% of their customers.

I do understand their need for bandwidth, as they continue to provide more and more for their customers, and eventually they had to give up their previously strong support for OTA.

I now also understand that just because their SWM8 has an off air port does not mean it will be used indefinitely. It was a good transitional piece of equipment, providing for OTA until such a time that OTA had to be let go.

Actually the fact is that running a second line to every TV in a person's home for OTA (or dual tuners) is not a good solution for the vast majority of people in Amercia. Of course it is possible, lol, but the vast majority are not going to "choose" the option (singlular, not plural) to make it happen, which is running a second line to every TV for OTA.

Obviously Directv knew this, and thus developed the SWM solution which initially included OTA integration. Today running a second line for OTA is the right solution only because it is the only solution for Directv customers who desire OTA, as Directv continues to add more and more services/stations for their customers, need the bandwith of a single cable, and must finally let go of OTA support. In return Directv has done a very good job providing HD locals for most of their customers.

Thanks to all for your help and to VOS for explaining the 2.3 MHz conflict with diplexers, it was the missing piece of info I needed. It is too bad that due to my location other antenna solutions are not possible, nor second cabling, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Currently my system is flawless again, and I'll just wait to see how long it lasts as Directv upgrades. Thanks again folks.

[David MacLeod]

the bandwidth mentioned here is not satellite bandwidth but bandwidth on the coax itself. ota uses areas on the coax that will soon be needed by directv for their stuff.

thought that should be clarified sice most of us usually associate bandwidth with satellite.

[Non Jeff]

the bandwidth mentioned here is not satellite bandwidth but bandwidth on the coax itself. ota uses areas on the coax that will soon be needed by directv for their stuff.

thought that should be clarified sice most of us usually associate bandwidth with satellite.

right, sorry if I didn't clarify that well. We're talking about the bandwith of a single coax cable. Directv will soon need frequencies now used by OTA, thus making OTA and satellite incompatable on the same single coax line.

I installed my LNB5 Simline and SWM8 over 18 months ago, and had not kept up on the latest since that time. When I was notified my locals were moving from 72.5 and that I would need new equipment, I was already expecting this some day, so thought nothing of it. In my case the only new equipment needed were new H23's to replace my old H10's. I thought it was just a matter of swapping boxes. I did not know about the 2.3 MHz signal, or it being attenuated by the diplexers. I did not know that the SWM8 were officially branded for MDU only and until recently not residential installments (I assumed it would become standard everywhere). So I had to catch up quickly on dbstalk to find out the latest.

I was somewhat surprised to find a noticable change in "attitude" on dbstalk towards the SMW8 and OTA integration. Previously everyone seemed excited about a single wire solution, and how to diplex off air into the system, and talk was a-plenty about how to do it. It was perfect for me, that's for sure. Now it appears the mere suggestion is frowned upon, instead following official Directv recommendations. I had fallen behind the times, its good to get caught up again.

[veryoldschool]

Previously everyone seemed excited about a single wire solution, and how to diplex off air into the system, and talk was a-plenty about how to do it. It was perfect for me, that's for sure. Now it appears the mere suggestion is frowned upon, instead following official Directv recommendations. I had fallen behind the times, its good to get caught up again.
"Previously" nobody knew what the OTA band was going to be used for. Now we do: networking over coax. :)

[Non Jeff]

"Previously" nobody knew what the OTA band was going to be used for. Now we do: networking over coax. :)

Yep. And I love networking, too, so though I may lose OTA, its a great trade-off.

[houskamp]

"Previously" nobody knew what the OTA band was going to be used for. Now we do: networking over coax. :)
Hopefully that's the only use.. network is already in place here, OTA would be a major problem to do..

[woodybeetle]

Very nice write-up.
Like stated before, diplexing is not supported but usually works. Don't think that you mentioned the diplexer model though. Any chance that the diplexers are not up to snuff?

BTW, start thinking about separate OTA runs as you may want to take advantage of future capabilities that will use those frequencies.

DTV supports di[plexing aftger the SWM, part number 9501 passes all frequencies from 2-2150 and has been used in the MDU enviroment for 2 years with the SWM systems. It is even in the new MDU sMFH2 certification program that all MDU installers are required to take (20 hours in an online format).

[veryoldschool]

DTV supports di[plexing aftger the SWM, part number 9501 passes all frequencies from 2-2150 and has been used in the MDU enviroment for 2 years with the SWM systems. It is even in the new MDU sMFH2 certification program that all MDU installers are required to take (20 hours in an online format).
FWIW: when the DECA units come out, the bandstop filter will need to go between the diplexer and the first splitter, since DECA & OTA are in the same band.