View Full Version : Zinwell Split8-Z
gpauljr
10-07-09, 01:43 PM
DTV is presently installing 5 HD DVRs, and 2 HD receivers. They are using SWM technology and using a Zinwell Split8-Z SWM splitter. The installers claim that the seven ports will each power two inputs on an HD DVR (HR 20). I thought that each output (there are seven outputs and one power input, along with the single signal input) would only take care of one input on the DVR and consequently this splitter would only handle three DVRs and one regular receiver. Is this the same as an SWM8, or is it different? First post, although been reading for several years.
DTV is presently installing 5 HD DVRs, and 2 HD receivers. They are using SWM technology and using a Zinwell Split8-Z SWM splitter. The installers claim that the seven ports will each power two inputs on an HD DVR (HR 20). I thought that each output (there are seven outputs and one power input, along with the single signal input) would only take care of one input on the DVR and consequently this splitter would only handle three DVRs and one regular receiver. Is this the same as an SWM8, or is it different? First post, although been reading for several years.
If they are using a SWiM LNB, then your going to come up 4 tuners short.
If they are using 1 SWiM8 module, then your going to come up 4 tuners short.
If they are using 4 splitters, and 2 SWiM8 modules then your fine, and they have another splitter somewhere.
The ports on a splitter are just that, ports.... the SWiM technology does not care a lick how many you have on a system
Don't let them out of the house until you have all 5 DVR's recording 2 shows, and the 2 HD rcvrs showing picture at the same time and no 771 errors to be seen.
sigma1914
10-07-09, 01:53 PM
It will work. SWM only has 1 wire to each receiver, even 2 tuner DVRs.
It will work. SWM only has 1 wire to each receiver, even 2 tuner DVRs.
SWM does only require 1 wire to run both tuners on a dvr but he is talking about way more tuners than a SWM supports. As others have mentioned he is 4 tuners beyond what a single swmlnb or swm8 can support.
sigma1914
10-07-09, 02:06 PM
SWM does only require 1 wire to run both tuners on a dvr but he is talking about way more tuners than a SWM supports. As others have mentioned he is 4 tuners beyond what a single swmlnb or swm8 can support.
But the installer is using the Split8-Z SWM splitter, so he'll have 8 tuners right?
It should go like this? Dish...8 Channel Single Wire Multi-switch...PI...Split8-Z SWM splitter...up to 8 receivers
But the installer is using the Split8-Z SWM splitter, so he'll have 8 tuners right?
It should go like this? Dish...8 Channel Single Wire Multi-switch...PI...Split8-Z SWM splitter...up to 8 receivers
you can run 8 tuners off a 3 way splitter if you use the 'signal to IRD' port on the PI to a DVR, and then 1 wire to 3 more DVR's off the splitter.
Your trying to equate IRD (rcvr) and tuner.
each DVR (1 IRD) has 2 tuners.
rudeney
10-07-09, 02:28 PM
DTV is presently installing 5 HD DVRs, and 2 HD receivers. They are using SWM technology and using a Zinwell Split8-Z SWM splitter. The installers claim that the seven ports will each power two inputs on an HD DVR (HR 20). I thought that each output (there are seven outputs and one power input, along with the single signal input) would only take care of one input on the DVR and consequently this splitter would only handle three DVRs and one regular receiver. Is this the same as an SWM8, or is it different? First post, although been reading for several years.
First of all :welcome_s to DBSTalk!
There is something wrong with this install. A SWM system can only handle 8 tuners. DVR's have two tuners, although they only need a single feed from the SWM to serve both (hence the term Single Wire Multiswitch).
Since you have 5 HD-DVR's, that's already 10 tuners, not counting the other two on the two HD receivers. You are going to have to have two SWM systems to handle all this. Regardless of how many time you split a SWM signal, you can;t put more than 8 tuners on it. Period.
dsw2112
10-07-09, 02:34 PM
Since you have 5 HD-DVR's, that's already 10 tuners, not counting the other two on the two HD receivers. You are going to have to have two SWM systems to handle all this. Regardless of how many time you split a SWM signal, you can;t put more than 8 tuners on it. Period.
Rudeney is 100% correct. Here is the Link to what they are installing http://www.zcwc.com/products/swm/SWM8-Z.htm
It's a SWM8. They will need to install two in parallel to get your setup working.
On the plus side it looks like D* is installing SWM8's now???!!!
Edit: Disregard above text as I obviously didn't read the OP's post correctly!
rudeney
10-07-09, 02:56 PM
Rudeney is 100% correct. Here is the Link to what they are installing http://www.zcwc.com/products/swm/SWM8-Z.htm
It's a SWM8. They will need to install two in parallel to get your setup working.
On the plus side it looks like D* is installing SWM8's now???!!!
I think the OP said they were installing this:
http://www.zcwc.com/products/swm/SPLIT8-Z.htm
http://www.zcwc.com/products/swm/pictures/SPLIT8-Z.jpg
The SWM itself could still be on the dish and not necessarily a SWM8. But in order to make all his tuners work, he needs two SWM systems, so that means either two SWM8's or two dishes with SWM LNB's.
gpauljr
10-07-09, 02:59 PM
It will be interesting to see how this turns out. I don't think this is a SWM8 setup as the splitter does not have any legacy ports and is fairly small. They say that it will handle everything, but I will take the earlier advice and test the system with all five DVR's recording two shows at once. Will let you know what happens.
gpauljr
10-07-09, 03:00 PM
The picture from rudeney what what they are installing.
dsw2112
10-07-09, 03:01 PM
The SWM itself could still be on the dish and not necessarily a SWM8. But in order to make all his tuners work, he needs two SWM systems, so that means either two SWM8's or two dishes with SWM LNB's.
Yup, you are correct -- misread the original post... With all the SWM rumors swirling I was thinking D* made the SWM8 an option for residential customers, prob not the case though... Hope the techs know that a SWMLnb only supports 8 tuners, I'm sure the OP doesn't want two dishes installed...
dsw2112
10-07-09, 03:07 PM
It will be interesting to see how this turns out. I don't think this is a SWM8 setup as the splitter does not have any legacy ports and is fairly small. They say that it will handle everything, but I will take the earlier advice and test the system with all five DVR's recording two shows at once. Will let you know what happens.
I'd ask them to explain what they're doing before letting them continue. If they are indeed installing a SWMLnb (which is likely) then they may not know that it will only support 8 tuners. The other option is two dishes, but they should have brought that to your attention if they planned to go that route. Hopefully they're not trying to use that splitter with a standard LNB :nono2:
I strongly agree;
The way the OP has described everything so far, I don't think the installers really know how SWM technology works. Apparently they are equating the number of outputs available on an 8-way SWM splitter with the number of receivers it can provide for irrespective of how many tuners any individual receiver has. :nono2:
Again, I would ask them what they are doing and not sign off on the install or let those installers leave until all receivers are functioning on all tuners. Two for each DVR and one for single receivers.
gpauljr
10-07-09, 03:48 PM
I have explained to them that I didn't think this would work, but they seem confident that it will. No way do I want two dishes hanging off the house. I even let them read some of the posts here, but they still seem confident. We'll see.
rudeney
10-07-09, 07:48 PM
Well, what's the status? Do they have it working yet?
gpauljr
10-07-09, 07:54 PM
Result: The installers and their supervisor did not understand SWM. As you all have said, only eight ports, cut it any way you want, and not expandable. They tried to sell me on another dish, but no way!!! I signed the work order with a notation that they did not make all DVR's operational and that the system installed was not of significant capacity. The installation supervisor is trying to work out something with DTV but who knows. The result is that I have a partial system which is not acceptable. DTV has the technology, don't understand why they don't use it. Certainly mine is not the largest installation they have had. That said, the installers were very nice and did a good job installing the system they had. Thank you for all your help and we'll see what, if anything, DTV will do to try and remedy the situation.
Today the correct answer from DirecTV is two WB68 multiswitches in parallel with two coax to each DVR and one coax to the non-DVR receivers.
In the very near future, you will/would get a 16 port SWM system that will support the number of tuners you have. Whether or not that will be made available to you now is unknown.
RobertE
10-07-09, 08:01 PM
Result: The installers and their supervisor did not understand SWM. As you all have said, only eight ports, cut it any way you want, and not expandable. They tried to sell me on another dish, but no way!!! I signed the work order with a notation that they did not make all DVR's operational and that the system installed was not of significant capacity. The installation supervisor is trying to work out something with DTV but who knows. The result is that I have a partial system which is not acceptable. DTV has the technology, don't understand why they don't use it. Certainly mine is not the largest installation they have had. That said, the installers were very nice and did a good job installing the system they had. Thank you for all your help and we'll see what, if anything, DTV will do to try and remedy the situation.
At this point, there are three options.
1) Second SWiM odu. You've already deep sixed this option. :p
Switch from SWiM odu to legacy odu, then
2) Use two WB68's paralleled, second lines to each DVR & BBCs.
3) Use two SWiM8 external switches also paralleled. Best option, but good like prying one out of their hands.
dsw2112
10-07-09, 08:02 PM
Result: The installers and their supervisor did not understand SWM. As you all have said, only eight ports, cut it any way you want, and not expandable. They tried to sell me on another dish, but no way!!! I signed the work order with a notation that they did not make all DVR's operational and that the system installed was not of significant capacity. The installation supervisor is trying to work out something with DTV but who knows. The result is that I have a partial system which is not acceptable. DTV has the technology, don't understand why they don't use it. Certainly mine is not the largest installation they have had. That said, the installers were very nice and did a good job installing the system they had. Thank you for all your help and we'll see what, if anything, DTV will do to try and remedy the situation.
What a shame :nono2: This is why many here use the DIY approach...
Result: The installers and their supervisor did not understand SWM. As you all have said, only eight ports, cut it any way you want, and not expandable. They tried to sell me on another dish, but no way!!! I signed the work order with a notation that they did not make all DVR's operational and that the system installed was not of significant capacity. The installation supervisor is trying to work out something with DTV but who knows. The result is that I have a partial system which is not acceptable. DTV has the technology, don't understand why they don't use it. Certainly mine is not the largest installation they have had. That said, the installers were very nice and did a good job installing the system they had. Thank you for all your help and we'll see what, if anything, DTV will do to try and remedy the situation.
Well...
Sorry to hear it, however I really knew it was coming based on your descriptions as they obviously did not understand SWM technology.
But what bothers me is that when the installers realized that SWM wasn't going to work here they didn't know to switch to the standard alternative of swapping out the SWiMLNB for a conventional four output one and running them to two parallel WB68s fed through power-pass splitters.
I thought this was SOP?
And while I know to expect practically anything nowadays, how does one logically get to be a field supervisor and yet not understand the basic technology of SWM considering it is the main direction DirecTV is focusing now for all new installs?
RobertE
10-07-09, 09:26 PM
From what I've seen, becoming a field sup has very little to do with knowledge of doing the job and everything on knowledge of whos behind to kiss. :(
rudeney
10-08-09, 11:59 AM
I really hate to hear that this turned out badly. I was afraid it would, but I tried to remain optimistic that the installers knew what they were doing and had some tricks (i.e. 2 SWM8's) up their sleeves. I hope that you eventually get satisfaction. If not, and you want to tackle this yourself, there are plenty of people here to help you.
JosephB
10-08-09, 12:05 PM
The simplest solution is going to be a second dish. You can forget about a dual SWM8 switch setup because those aren't in the residential channel, period. No amount of sucking up or begging will get you one of those, and if they couldn't figure out a regular SWM LNB out, then buying your own SWM8 switches is asking for even more trouble.
If you absolutely won't have a second dish then you're going to have to revert to a legacy system which means an additional coax run to each DVR. If I were you I'd let them put up the second dish.
dsw2112
10-08-09, 12:13 PM
I signed the work order with a notation that they did not make all DVR's operational and that the system installed was not of significant capacity.
BTW did they end up installing all of the receivers and just configuring four of the five HR2X's as single tuner, or did they actually subtract receivers to keep under the total?
Also, as someone asked prior, did they mention why they didn't revert to a legacy setup to fulfill the install correctly? Were you against running two lines to the DVR's?
I really wish you the best in this situation and as was mentioned above we're always happy to help with any questions or DIY advice going forward.
Mertzen
10-08-09, 12:49 PM
From what I've seen, becoming a field sup has very little to do with knowledge of doing the job and everything on knowledge of whos behind to kiss. :(
I am very much offended to this bold generalization. :mad:
I PMed you the following dear RobertE:
I respected you for a long time here on this forum. But a post like this really has thrown that respect out the door.
I was a tech sup for the #1 HSP in the #1 DMA and never kissed any ass, helped every tech that needed it, worked wherever and whenever it was needed and was recognized by D* management.
So think and say what you want but comments like those do little more then disrespect the people out in the field that actually make a difference.
gpauljr
10-08-09, 01:01 PM
Our new two story home is prewired with single coax to over 25 locations, each location home run wired to a central panel. It is built on a slab and running a second line to each location is next to impossible, and I don't want a bunch of external wiring. I discussed this with DTV and if setting up a system was not possible, then I would go with cable. They assured me that they could do it.
They set up all the VCRs and tuners, but I just can't access more than eight tuners at a time. This won't usually be a problem until the house is full and everyone wants to record their shows.
What is this about a 16 port SWM? If near future means the next few months, then I can wait. This sounds like the ideal setup if it will be authorized for residential use.
dsw2112
10-08-09, 01:05 PM
What is this about a 16 port SWM? If near future means the next few months, then I can wait. This sounds like the ideal setup if it will be authorized for residential use.
The rumored release date is Jan 2010, BUT I have not heard an official confirmation that it would be supported for residential installs. There are a few guys around here who probably know the answer though...
dsw2112
10-08-09, 01:10 PM
They set up all the VCRs and tuners, but I just can't access more than eight tuners at a time. This won't usually be a problem until the house is full and everyone wants to record their shows.
I would either unplug the receivers you are not using, or reduce four of the DVR's to single tuner. By running the number of tuners you're currently running the receivers will "fight" over the available tuners. You're especially likely to encounter problems after a power outage when all of the receivers boot at the same time. It's even possible to encounter missed recordings on the DVR's you are using if they can't acquire a necessary tuner...
gpauljr
10-08-09, 01:19 PM
Thank you, point well taken.
David MacLeod
10-08-09, 01:24 PM
I am very much offended to this bold generalization. :mad:
I PMed you the following dear RobertE:
I respected you for a long time here on this forum. But a post like this really has thrown that respect out the door.
I was a tech sup for the #1 HSP in the #1 DMA and never kissed any ass, helped every tech that needed it, worked wherever and whenever it was needed and was recognized by D* management.
So think and say what you want but comments like those do little more then disrespect the people out in the field that actually make a difference.
what was the point in pm'ing then posting the pm?
David MacLeod
10-08-09, 01:25 PM
I would either unplug the receivers you are not using, or reduce four of the DVR's to single tuner. By running the number of tuners you're currently running the receivers will "fight" over the available tuners. You're especially likely to encounter problems after a power outage when all of the receivers boot at the same time. It's even possible to encounter missed recordings on the DVR's you are using if they can't acquire a necessary tuner...
I think the missed recordings would happen a LOT in this situation.
If you have smartened up yet you will hire an independent contracter to install 2 SWM8 modules with splitters. AND have Directv remove your unworkable system.
Cable will work and cost you far less than D* will cost for equipment and installation. You have been told from the beginning that the proposed system wasn't going to work.
BattleZone
10-08-09, 10:19 PM
I am very much offended to this bold generalization. :mad:
I PMed you the following dear RobertE:
I respected you for a long time here on this forum. But a post like this really has thrown that respect out the door.
I was a tech sup for the #1 HSP in the #1 DMA and never kissed any ass, helped every tech that needed it, worked wherever and whenever it was needed and was recognized by D* management.
So think and say what you want but comments like those do little more then disrespect the people out in the field that actually make a difference.
Mertzen,
Don't take it personally. I'm pretty sure that any of the regular posters here long ago figured out that you were one of the good guys.
But the truth is that there ARE field supervisors who know next to nothing, and frequently instruct their new techs how to do things wrong, and then pass the blame to the techs. I feel for those techs, and I have corrected a couple of the field sups more than once (not something they tend to like or appreciate, even though I do it as tactfully as possible).
Recently there was a rumor going around one of the shops that you had to have enough splitter ports on your SWM splitter for each TUNER, meaning if you were hooking up 4 DVRs, you had to have a 1x8 splitter instead of a 1x4. Two field supervisors were arguing with me that a 1x4 wouldn't work, and instructed all their techs to use 1x8's, which of course lowers the signal level an extra 4 db or so for no good reason. I finally invited *everyone* to my shop for a demonstration and a copy of the SWM manual, as well as offered to bet $1000 against $100 of their money that I was right. That was about the time it dawned on them that I might know what I was talking about, at which point they backed off of their position, but not before they'd run the warehouse out of 1x8 splitters and gotten managment pissed off at them.
The point is that these guys know only what they've been trained, and know nothing outside of DirecTV. I'm an AES-certified audio enginner, have designed RF distributions and head-end systems, and worked on satellite since C-band, among a bunch of other things. Many of the field sups don't even have a year in the field, and many are ignorant, lazy, and like to throw their power around. The poor in-house techs are intimidated, because these guys hold their jobs in their hands.
Fortunately, I know how to deal with these folks: as little as possible.
Were I dealing with you, Mertzen, in that capacity, things would be MUCH different...
dsw2112
10-09-09, 09:01 AM
To the OP: There now appears to be a supported solution for your install problem. As posted in the below thread by RobertE, D* will begin supporting SWM8's in the residential environment. It is likely that it will take some time before the supply trickles down to the techs, but you WILL have an approved solution going forward.
I would contact the installer who setup your system and have them research the information (as they might not even be aware of it yet), and have them attempt to procure the SWM8's necessary to complete your install correctly.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=166394
gpauljr
10-10-09, 01:55 PM
Sounds like good news. I was speaking to a DTV supervisor who arranged for a new team to come back next Monday. We discussed complicated installations, and while mine was fairly large he talked about much larger ones. He was familiar with the SWM8, and assured me that they could rectify the situation at no cost to me, and understood that it could be done with a single dish and a single wire to each location. We will see. As recopmmended, I unplugged several DVRs so as to reduce the tuner capacity to eight and will see what happens on Monday.
Sounds like good news. I was speaking to a DTV supervisor who arranged for a new team to come back next Monday. We discussed complicated installations, and while mine was fairly large he talked about much larger ones. He was familiar with the SWM8, and assured me that they could rectify the situation at no cost to me, and understood that it could be done with a single dish and a single wire to each location. We will see. As recopmmended, I unplugged several DVRs so as to reduce the tuner capacity to eight and will see what happens on Monday.
OK, well best of luck and please keep us posted here on the results;
But I really don't see how they can fix your situation and maintain both a single dish and single wire install solution. Your only option with these constraints is to swap out the SWiMLNB for a four output legacy type to feed two SWM-8 modules in parallel through four power-pass splitters. And the SWM-8 modules will not be officially approved for residential installs until 10/15, and the SWM-16 is not due out until sometime in December.
Soooo...:shrug: we'll indeed see then I guess as you say...
gpauljr
10-12-09, 04:17 PM
Final Update: All's well that ends well. They came out today, and after a call to D*, they installed two SWM8's, an additional power inserter and an extender. The changed the LNB's on the dish and reran the four cables to my home run box. All works as advertised. They said that the SWM8's officially start being used tomorrow for residential use (as reported here), but that they would install the system today. The supervisor just took his training this morning. Thanks for all the input.
dsw2112
10-12-09, 04:49 PM
Final Update: All's well that ends well. They came out today, and after a call to D*, they installed two SWM8's, an additional power inserter and an extender. The changed the LNB's on the dish and reran the four cables to my home run box. All works as advertised. They said that the SWM8's officially start being used tomorrow for residential use (as reported here), but that they would install the system today. The supervisor just took his training this morning. Thanks for all the input.
Good deal! You may be the first in the country to get this type of setup under the new rules! Congrats again, and glad it worked out well in the end!
Final Update: All's well that ends well. They came out today, and after a call to D*, they installed two SWM8's, an additional power inserter and an extender. The changed the LNB's on the dish and reran the four cables to my home run box. All works as advertised. They said that the SWM8's officially start being used tomorrow for residential use (as reported here), but that they would install the system today. The supervisor just took his training this morning. Thanks for all the input.
Hey +1 here as well;
Good deal for sure! Although I thought the E2 SWM expander doesn't actually need PIs as it comes with it's own special 24 volt power adapter which supplies both SWM modules through their legacy port 3 (see the following attachment).
But a good show nevertheless and happy to see the supervisor was properly educated on SWM technology this time around. :)
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