Major 921 downer [Archive]

flht

07-15-03, 09:07 AM

Is it just me, or did anyone else jump through the roof when the tech chat guy tried to sweep under the rug the fact that 811 would output to the HD outs and the SD outs at the same time but the 921 would not! The reason stated was that the 921 actually has and older chip that does not support this feature. He went further to say that this feature is a fringe feature with little or no demand.

I'm curious just how many people out there would like to be able to drive their other non HD sets in the house at the same time they are watching HD in the main room. The absence of this feature in a landmark $999 flagship product while it appears in a $299 entry-level product is appalling! For me this feature not being present is a deathblow to my plans to buy the 921. I will not invest $999 (actually way more buy the time you get a superdish) in another HD product that kills all my other non-receiver equipped TV's in the house every time I want to use it.

I would not care if development was set back another few months (we have waited what seems like forever already) if Dish were to abandon the chip and replace it with one that supports this feature.

To that end, please, not only do I want to hear from others via this thread, but also I implore each of you to exert your influence as a consumer and send Dish the message that this will not do. Write Charlie, write the engineers, call tech support, do this not just for me, but also for yourself and all consumers. Don't let them get away with this. Don't let the 921 slip out with the absence of this important feature. The 921 is supposed to be everything we ever hoped for, and is the kind of piece that is supposed to end your search for the ultimate viewing platform and finally allow you to use a unit for 5-8 years without the need to constantly reinvest in the latest thing. With simultaneous HD and SD output, it would be.

Signed,
Sad Consumer

Scott Greczkowski

07-15-03, 09:15 AM

I dont blame Dish for this decission at all, that is not what the 921 was designed for, with that said though, I would be willing to be that sometime in the future we would see a 922 which will output 2 seperate outputs to two TV's.

I want my 921 :)

Cyclone

07-15-03, 10:16 AM

I have no problem with this either. The only thing that I would ever use it for would be to record to a VCR while watching HD. If I have a PVR, whats the big deal with the VCR? I can easily see why they made this decision, and consider it a non-issue.

Peluso

07-15-03, 11:06 AM

Point I: The engineer was correct. Very few of the 921 consumers will use the feature. It would be nice but how many people have a home sufficiently networked so that you can run the SD out to another tv in another room?

Point II: If they changed out the chip, I doubt the extra development time would just be a few months. I'm not an engineer, but that kind of change can be a multi year project. The only way it would be a couple of months is if the chips were designed to be interchangeable.

If their are any engineers out there, can you confirm this thought?

Allen Noland

07-15-03, 12:47 PM

Point II: If they changed out the chip, I doubt the extra development time would just be a few months.

:nono2: This is Dishnetwork, it would take them a year at least to do something like that. Also, several people are posting that the $299 for the 811 was incorrect pricing.

I personally would have liked that feature. I have a Channel Plus stereo Modulator to send signals to 3 other TV's. Would have been a 'Nice to have' feature, but not a deal killer.

Scott Greczkowski

07-15-03, 12:53 PM

The $299 for the 811 is correct pricing.

hdguru2

07-15-03, 01:17 PM

flht, You could not be more right! All this waiting only to find out that this unit will only be 90% when we could of had it all :( I have seen a lot of talk about the desirability of this feature at avsforum. It looks like flht posted the same rant over there, but also started a poll there, and 50% say they will not buy, and 50% say they don't care. 50% not buying tells me that Charlie may loose more than a few sales over this.

Scott, I think that you are right about the possibility of a 922 type unit, but you are talking years away. I must disagree with you that the 921 was not designed for this (I assume by this you mean it was designed to record HD). The key word here is HD, and any, I repeat ANY new box that has anything to do with HD in my opinion MUST have this capability, especially the 921 since it is for the high end user. It is precisely the high end user that demands this feature.

Cyclone, with all due respect, I don't think you have thought this through if it is a non-issue to you.

Peluso, I agree with you on Point II, but I am sure you have nothing to base Point I on except your own opinion. Look at the Poll, quite a few people consider it more that a non issue, more than an issue, they consider it a deal breaker.

Sadly, since Point II is probably, right it looks like flht, and I, and many others will be stuck with a half assed solution to a major problem. Something not unlike what I have now with my 6000, 721, 4000 setup. I keep the old receiver around just to see real time SD on other sets in the home when I have the 6000 in HD mode. Crude, $60/yr, and out of sync, but all I can do.

Apparently all anyone can do, even after buying a 921. What a shame. Go easy on flht, he has every reason to be sad for Charlie has not achieved perfection, or even met the full burden of delivering the state of the art in the 921. Sorry Charlie, sorry you have forced me to keep looking and keep waiting that is.

Mick and the boys said "you can't always get what you want." Well if Dish had tried a little harder, we just might of got what we needed.

Cyclone

07-15-03, 01:20 PM

The more I think about it, the more of a non-issue it becomes.

hdguru2

07-15-03, 01:30 PM

The more I think about it, the more of a non-issue it becomes.
Fine Cyclone, you have thought it through, My appoligies. I hope you are happy with your 920 1/2. Because it's not important to you, doesn't mean it's not important.

Now let us grive for the ill fated 921.

Scott Greczkowski

07-15-03, 01:41 PM

HDguru, hate to burst your bubble, but I understand that the HD Tivo for DirecTV will also not output SD and HD at the same time.

Mike D-CO5

07-15-03, 02:22 PM

Right now I have my 721 hooked up to my main 50 inch tv in the living room with S-video cables and also have it run by composite cables to my computer room directly behind the living room to a 32 inch magnavox. This way I can surf on the computer and watch my recorded shows on the pvr. I think it would make since to be able to do both high def and analog at the same time. You are still going to have a lot of standard def programing on your receivers.
\
Why allow it on your entry level high def receiver but not on your Flagship receiver?

hdguru2

07-15-03, 02:27 PM

HDguru, hate to burst your bubble, but I understand that the HD Tivo for DirecTV will also not output SD and HD at the same time.

No worries Scott, after Dish burst my bubble, I had no bubble for you to burst.

I am not a DirectTV user and don't plan on switching, but I am not surprised to learn that the platform that never claimed to care about anything but selling would not have the feature. While I can most certainly afford Tivo, I refuse to even think of paying for a subscription so I can use hardware. My technology subscriptions/service already total over $400/mo.

Dish claims that they are a technology driven company, and that they drive their technology to the next level. I'm sure they would truly like to have offered this feature, but the 921 came off the drawing board so long ago, that the technology did not yet exist. The demand is clearly there for this functionality, which obviously drove the chipmakers the create a solution, and Dish to incorporate the solution in the 811.

As for the 920 1/2, we are just left out in the cold on this, since it is too late to go back to the drawing board again, and even if they wanted to or were willing, Dish's bean counters will want some R&D money recouped before they will allow that to happen.

kstevens

07-15-03, 02:33 PM

No worries Scott, after Dish burst my bubble, I had no bubble for you to burst.

I am not a DirectTV user and don't plan on switching, but I am not surprised to learn that the platform that never claimed to care about anything but selling would not have the feature. While I can most certainly afford Tivo, I refuse to even think of paying for a subscription so I can use hardware. My technology subscriptions/service already total over $400/mo.

Dish claims that they are a technology driven company, and that they drive their technology to the next level. I'm sure they would truly like to have offered this feature, but the 921 came off the drawing board so long ago, that the technology did not yet exist. The demand is clearly there for this functionality, which obviously drove the chipmakers the create a solution, and Dish to incorporate the solution in the 811.

As for the 920 1/2, we are just left out in the cold on this, since it is too late to go back to the drawing board again, and even if they wanted to or were willing, Dish's bean counters will want some R&D money recouped before they will allow that to happen.

This is really a non-issue. I have a receiver in my bedroom because I want to beable to have different programs showing on each tv, which would not be the case if I just hooked it up to the analolg ports on the 921.

Ken

Scott Greczkowski

07-15-03, 02:38 PM

Remember that the 921 is made by a different company (ELDEN) and not by Echostar Directly, this unit has been in the works for close to 3 years now, the technology has changed over the past 3 years.

Certain things that wernt in the origional 921 design (such as 8PSK and recording OTA digital signals) but are there now, the 921 has evolved so much since it went on the drawing board they call it the 999. :D

I understand that Dish has upgraded almost everything on the unit to be up to date but unfortunatly that feature is not one of them.

The 811 from what I understand was designed in house. (and it just a 6000 with new Silver Case and new Motherboard) the electronics were setup so that it could do the dual output. (And I am not even sure if that was done by design or accident. :D

hdguru2

07-15-03, 03:31 PM

You are right Scott,

Dish went back to the drawing board I think something like 5 or 6 times on the 921. I think it ended up in the 811 by design, either their design, or possibly the chipmakers. But like I said before, the 921 as been on the drawing too long, and at some point, we get what we get. I sure that if it was within Dish's power to add this without a major delay, they would.

Ken, where have you been, the fashionable thing to do these days is to have one receiver per person in the house, all with UHF remotes, then modulate each one to a channel. (i.e. the Dad Channel, The Mom Channel, The Kid(s) Channel(s), The DVD channel, etc.). It's easy, and it works great for everyone! Plus, it will give that cable wire laying in your walls something to do, since it hasn't had much to do at all since you switched off your cable provider.

So when you decide this is the way to go and you choose the 921 for your channel, and you put your 921 into HD mode, Bamm there goes The Dad Channel. With a receiver like the 811, dad gets to enjoy his HD programs like they were meant to be in the Family Room/Home Theater and then walk the bedroom, tune to The Dad Channel and finish watching. All without ever having to switch back and forth or think about it, which I'm sure many 6000 owners can attest to being a real pain.

Sadly, with the 921, The Dad Channel goes dark whenever the receiver is in HD mode. This is wrong! Very wrong in a $999 receiver. HD/SD dual mode receivers must die! It is a major issue, but clearly, it is too late for the 921, once again, the search/wait will have to continue.

Tusk

07-15-03, 04:26 PM

Ken, where have you been, the fashionable thing to do these days is to have one receiver per person in the house, all with UHF remotes, then modulate each one to a channel. (i.e. the Dad Channel, The Mom Channel, The Kid(s) Channel(s), The DVD channel, etc.). It's easy, and it works great for everyone! Plus, it will give that cable wire laying in your walls something to do, since it hasn't had much to do at all since you switched off your cable provider.

So when you decide this is the way to go and you choose the 921 for your channel, and you put your 921 into HD mode, Bamm there goes The Dad Channel. With a receiver like the 811, dad gets to enjoy his HD programs like they were meant to be in the Family Room/Home Theater and then walk the bedroom, tune to The Dad Channel and finish watching. All without ever having to switch back and forth or think about it, which I'm sure many 6000 owners can attest to being a real pain.

Sadly, with the 921, The Dad Channel goes dark whenever the receiver is in HD mode. This is wrong! Very wrong in a $999 receiver. HD/SD dual mode receivers must die! It is a major issue, but clearly, it is too late for the 921, once again, the search/wait will have to continue.

I don't totally understand what the problem is. :scratchin Let's say dad's receiver is in the Family Room/Home Theater, mom's receiver is in the bedroom, and the kid's receiver is in the playroom.

If dad watches his movie in the FR/HT then moves to the bedroom, he either has to turn mom's receiver off and tune to dad's channel, or tune mom's receiver to what he was previously watching.

If you have a receiver per person, then I don't see how you would go to the bedroom and pout about the 921 not sending info to the bedroom. Use the bedroom tuner.

I would think you would have a better argument if you owned one receiver in the Family Room and were sending the signal to every TV in the house. Then you would have a problem.

hdguru2

07-15-03, 05:07 PM

Tuck,

2 Examples:

1. The wife don't want me messin with her receiver it case he goes in the the office or something like that and want's to watch the jewelery channel on her setup.

2. When you want to watch off the hard drive, you'll have to switch.

Switching back and forth and having think about it, is a real pain. Asl any 6000 owner.

Mike123abc

07-15-03, 05:47 PM

The 811 looks like a great receiver at a great price. I think my 6000s will move to bedrooms and my main TVs will get a nice upgrade. I do not know about getting a 921 yet. I will have to wait a while to get some user reviews before comitting that much money.

John Corn

07-15-03, 06:46 PM

kstevens

07-15-03, 07:00 PM

John Corn

07-15-03, 07:13 PM

Thanks Ken, this thread was hard for me to follow not ever having a 6000 or any sort of Hi Def receiver before.

hdguru2

07-15-03, 07:39 PM

Help me get this straight.....I'm kinda lost.

If I have a 921 in my Family Room (HD TV is in Fam Room) and also have it hooked to my bedroom TV (Stan Def) and I'm watching an HD I channel I'll have a blank screen in the bedroom.

The 811 would have a picture in both rooms?

Am I thinking correctly. :confused:

Is there a button on the remote to go from HD to SD?

John, you have it right, what is still not apparent though, is just how much of a PITA it is, running back and forth, or chasing the remote every time you want to switch form SD / HD and vice versa. It seems like my 6000 state is always the one I don't want it in.

The existence of this "dual mode" adds a layer of complexity that constantly gets in the way of just enjoying your equipment. This extra hassle is starting to be eliminated from new receivers, but really needs to be gone from the 921, but then would not see the 921 for another long time. If you buy a 921, it's an annoyance you will have to live with.

Someone on another thread suggested that if the 811 has FireWire, you could add a DVD/PVR combo, and work around it that way. That is of course if Dish would ever allow this, since they make it quite clear that DishWire is for future supported devices only. Probably not gonna work though, since I believe that the 811 having FireWire is incorrect, plus it will not have a UHF remote so no changing channels from another room.

Any way you look at it, it's just a travesty that Dish did not finally get it right with the 921. Then again the theory of planned obsolesce dictates that if the 921 did not have this problem, they won't be able to sell a 922 2 years down the road.

AndyMon

07-15-03, 09:33 PM

I would think you would have a better argument if you owned one receiver in the Family Room and were sending the signal to every TV in the house. Then you would have a problem.
I have 2 receivers located next to each other sending their signals to 6 tv's interspersed throughout the house via RF out (HD plasma has it's own hook up); 3 tv's each. Since it's just me and the wife this works out very well. For me this is an issue insofar as it will cause me to activate a third receiver to accomplish the same thing. Just curious, do either the 811 or the 921 have an RF output?

Ace

07-15-03, 09:54 PM

I'm kind of a newbie, so please bear with me. Let's say I have the 921 hooked up through one of my component inputs(input 5 or 6 on my Sony XBR tv) and I'm watching an HD channel at 1080i. If I switch to a SD channel does that mean I need to have the 921 hooked up through one of my S-video inputs and then manually select a different input on my TV every time I want to switch back and fourth between HD and SD channels. It seems that the 921 should just output the SD signal in 480i or 480p to my TV through the same component cables that I use for HD, so I don't have to switch inputs manually. Am I on the right track here? Can someone clarify this, thanks.

rudolpht

07-15-03, 10:26 PM

flht

07-16-03, 01:19 AM

Ace,

It will work fine as you want, similar to how the 6000 and two other HD recievers I have. The issue was watching HBO HD and seeing it SD in a different room off the same STB. Wait you could watch HBO non-HD in the other room on a different receiver. I guess you couldn't watch Bikini Destinations concurrently in two rooms or an HD stream in a room where an SD PVR would make more sense. Oh well, given this was NEVER a 921 advertised feature for the <1% (derogatory guess) of consumers wanting the feature.....

Rudolph, I understand you want your 921 like everyone else, but your derogatory guess is way off.

Here are the results of a pole I started today on AVS:

Is no simultaneous HD and SD output a deathblow to the 921?
I will not buy until they fix this! This feature is of vital importance. 9--47.37%
I will buy now, and upgrade to a future model when they fix this, such is the life of the early adopter. 0--0%
I can't believe they blew it on this, but I will buy, and live with it. 1--5.26%
I will buy, and live without it, it is not that big a deal. 5--26.32%
The tech forum guy was right, no one cares. 4--21.05%
Total: 19 votes 100%

So much for your silly 1%, about half are more than disappointed at Dish Network, they say they will not buy! You want disappointed, how about Dish when they see how this affects sales.

Even more of us are disappointed at those that have made light of this, or consider it non-issue because that don't care, or don't know how bad this really is.

Yes, we all are waiting for a piece of equipment like this, hopefully an unbiased poll will show all, and maybe even Dish that this is not a fringe feature. Either way, it's a moot point. Dish has stuck us with another just about everything we ever wanted type box, at least until they are touting, a 922 next time around.

Jacob S

07-16-03, 01:20 AM

This is the problem with waiting and waiting to release a receiver, it gets behind the times. This is why I had stressed before to get receivers that are more upgradable to keep up with the changes. Would you buy a computer new that has sat on the shelp for 2-4 years? It is new right? That dont mean it is up to par with the latest and greatest.

It is good that they are going to update it to keep up with things but if a product is not rolled out eventually it makes it pointless. Getting more HD content and a SuperDish solution rolled out is important in doing this. It is just as pointless to roll out the 921 without much HD content to use it for.

Scott Greczkowski

07-16-03, 07:39 AM

Rudolph, I understand you want your 921 like everyone else, but your derogatory guess is way off.

Here are the results of a pole I started today on AVS:

Wow 19 people voted on it. :rolleyes: And more people didnt care about this feature then those who said it was the death blow.

I agree this would have been a nice feature but I can live without it, even though its in the 811 I won't use it.

jimcx

07-16-03, 07:43 AM

Well, Dish might be able to salvage some sales by making sure there are discrete IR codes for selecting the HD and SD modes. At least then, we would be able to add in the code when switching to the correct input on the receiver from 2 different rooms. I've got an older Yamaha receiver that only has a composite output for the multi-room video which feeds my second floor. It has separately selectable input than the main room, so having SD and HD active at the same time was a desired feature.
For the most part, I could work around it as long as discrete IR codes are defined.

Jim

tampa8

07-16-03, 08:12 AM

I too was at first not happy about this, but have since thought it through. But first, I worked with polling and polling data for several years so feel I can comment on the pole at AVS. That pole or one taken here for that matter is soooo skewed that it means nothing. The vast majority of subscribers are no where near the fanatics we are. I cannot of course predict what a true pole would reveal, but I suspect no where near as high as at AVS. That it is a high end, expensive receiver does lend some support to the arguements here that it should have it, and you would be correct that the buyer may indeed be more sopisticated. Most will have decided to buy it however, because it will have two tuners, record in HD, and receive OTA and record digital OTA, because that is what it will be advertised to do. I suppose if it does not sell well, research would be done to see why and your problem with it would be investigated.

As for me, I came to the conclusion a second (or third receiver) is so cheap to find, that even paying $5 a month for it is not a big deal. In fact, do I even want my kids to be able to change anything on the 921 when they are not in the room? In the end, it just is not a big deal for me.

BobMurdoch

07-16-03, 03:31 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can switch it between HD and SD outputs can you not? So those that want to archive to a standard VCR can do so, while those that want the best picture while viewing the PVR can do so via the HD output. As for not being able to do both at the same time, .....I'll live.

Chiller

07-16-03, 03:34 PM

Has anyone considered the possibility of simultaneous output from HD and the Coax (Tv/RF Out) connector? I don't think the 6000 has a cable pass-through, so I don't think it could be tested beforehand, but from the pictures I've seen, it does look like the 921 does have the ability to pass through cable with the output of the 921 modulated on channel 3 or 4.

I currently run my 721 to a TV in another room using this setup. Whether this capability is shut down on the 921 when in HD mode remains to be seen, though I expect that it is, given that the RF modulator on the TV out probably just taps off the S-video or composite output signal.

flht

07-17-03, 03:45 AM

Wow 19 people voted on it. :rolleyes: And more people didnt care about this feature then those who said it was the death blow.

I agree this would have been a nice feature but I can live without it, even though its in the 811 I won't use it.

I guess the moderator is allowed Sarcasm. Don't dismiss this poll just yet. It's up to 28 and the percentage that don't care is equal to the percentage that say it's a death blow. So there. 50/50 means the people that are making light of this are missing the idea. See next comment for why. Thanks for at least agreeing it would have been nice.

I too was at first not happy about this, but have since thought it through. But first, I worked with polling and polling data for several years so feel I can comment on the pole at AVS. That pole or one taken here for that matter is soooo skewed that it means nothing. The vast majority of subscribers are no where near the fanatics we are. I cannot of course predict what a true pole would reveal, but I suspect no where near as high as at AVS. That it is a high end, expensive receiver does lend some support to the arguements here that it should have it, and you would be correct that the buyer may indeed be more sopisticated. Most will have decided to buy it however, because it will have two tuners, record in HD, and receive OTA and record digital OTA, because that is what it will be advertised to do. I suppose if it does not sell well, research would be done to see why and your problem with it would be investigated.

Tampa8, While I understand that one might assume an AVS poll is skewed, in this case I don't feel it is, Here are 2+ reasons why.

1. The fanatics at AVS are precisely who the target audience is. As you say "The vast majority of subscribers are no where near the fanatics we are." Exactly, I have been a Dish sub. for 8 years and I have owned only their fancy models. DSR-100, 5000 with HD mod., 6000, 721, etc. I have always had problems receiving good tech support on these units and the reasons cited are a)"I have never had a call on this unit before, let me bump you up to advanced support." Advanced support has repeatedly said b)"Hardly anyone ever calls about these units because less than 1% of our subscribers have advanced equipment."

Simply put that's 7,920,000 -- basic 301, and maybe 501 users and 80,000 -- 6000, 721 users. We fanatics are the only ones who will ever buy this kind of unit so the AVS poll is skewed to the exact demographic that will buy this unit. AND HALF OF US ARE PISSED!, Yes we will have to live with it, but it is a huge letdown.

2. 28 people is actually statistically significant to about +-10-15%. It takes 345 people to be at +-3-4% Like election exit poles, and 900 is enough for +-1-2%. So think what you want, but no less then 3-4 out of every ten of us "fanatics" wanted this feature, and claim they won't buy without it. That's way too big a number for Dish to not see sales suffer. They will get away with it though, and offer an updated unit in a couple years. Big companies always get away with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can switch it between HD and SD outputs can you not? So those that want to archive to a standard VCR can do so, while those that want the best picture while viewing the PVR can do so via the HD output. As for not being able to do both at the same time, .....I'll live.

Bob, you are missing the whole point of this thread. HAVING TO SWITCH is exactly what we are annoyed about! We want this unit to function like 1 unit, not 2. Having to switch means you never have a whole unit doing everything it needs to do. Yes everything it does while in HD mode is wonderful, but there should not be modes in an expensive unit like this. It needs to just up-convert/down-convert on the fly in real time. If their $300 unit can do this, by golly their $1,000 unit damm well should, but the 921 has been on the shelf sooooooooo long, it lacks the processing power to do this. Thus we lose this one big feature! It's more than a feature really, it's how the platfrom should have been built from the ground up!

Has anyone considered the possibility of simultaneous output from HD and the Coax (Tv/RF Out) connector? I don't think the 6000 has a cable pass-through, so I don't think it could be tested beforehand, but from the pictures I've seen, it does look like the 921 does have the ability to pass through cable with the output of the 921 modulated on channel 3 or 4.

I currently run my 721 to a TV in another room using this setup. Whether this capability is shut down on the 921 when in HD mode remains to be seen, though I expect that it is, given that the RF modulator on the TV out probably just taps off the S-video or composite output signal.

Chiller the point of this thread is that what you ask is impossible in HD mode. If there where no modes, then you could do what you are describing. You said "Whether this capability is shut down on the 921 when in HD mode remains to be seen."

It does not remain to be seen. That is the whole reason I started this thread. The tech chat guy said: It will be a two mode unit. In HD, it outputs to all the fancy connections, and the S-Video, Composite, and coax are DEAD! in SD it is the other way around.

Even if users don't plan on outputting to other rooms, this adds needless complexity to using the 921. In the other room scenario, not only do you have a switch to SD, but then there's nothing on the HD ports in the FR/HT so you would have to switch inputs on the HDTV. Then you are not even in HD any more, which probably means no HD recording either. The cycle is an endless hassle, just like it was with the 6000, but with the additional complexity of recording and 2 tuners. It should have been fixed but the drawing is too old. So we will be stuck with crude solutions like yours (and mine) until the next generation after what was susposed to be the next generation. To bad.

tm22721

07-17-03, 04:51 AM

This is actually good news !!

I have the 6000 RGB output connected to my FP video scalar which automatically switches to the HD input when it is active, ie, ONLY when the 6000 is in HD mode. If the 921 HD output was always on, I would have needed to manually switch my scalar whenever I want to use the S connector input from my Denon 3300 receiver (DVD, satellite, or tape).

Nick

07-17-03, 08:36 PM

Tampa8 said "I worked with polling and polling data for several years so feel I can comment on the pole at AVS. That pole or one taken here for that matter is soooo skewed that it means nothing."One would think that since you worked with polling and polling data, you would have learned to spell 'poll' correctly.

Ace

07-18-03, 07:20 AM

One would think that since you worked with polling and polling data, you would have learned to spell 'poll' correctly.

:eek2: :lol: :hurah:

tampa8

07-18-03, 08:08 AM

One would think that since you worked with polling and polling data, you would have learned to spell 'poll' correctly.

Perhaps a dictionary would assist you. Go to www.dictionary.com, at the top enter the word "poll"

I assure you I know the spelling and meaning of "poll"
And my statements still stand. Any poll on the internet is skewed. Any poll at a site like AVS or DBSTALK etc.. are skewed by the very nature of the sites. In fact, any poll where people act on their own to vote rather than being sought out is skewed. All the discussion in the world cannot change that fact. As I mentioned, there is a factor that it is a sophisticated receiver, and some who buy it will be more sophisticated at buying electronic equipment. But to jump to the idea that it will not sell using the AVS poll, because it does not have this one feature is absurd.

flht

07-18-03, 07:38 PM

Perhaps a dictionary would assist you. Go to www.dictionary.com, at the top enter the word "poll"

I assure you I know the spelling and meaning of "poll"
And my statements still stand. Any poll on the internet is skewed. Any poll at a site like AVS or DBSTALK etc.. are skewed by the very nature of the sites. In fact, any poll where people act on their own to vote rather than being sought out is skewed. All the discussion in the world cannot change that fact. As I mentioned, there is a factor that it is a sophisticated receiver, and some who buy it will be more sophisticated at buying electronic equipment. But to jump to the idea that it will not sell using the AVS poll, because it does not have this one feature is absurd.

Tampa8, Rather than stoop to the level of Ace & Nick, how about at least responding directly to the only legitimate challenge to your opinion that the poll is skewed. Mine.

Look up and quote my response to your post up about 5 posts from here, and defend your arguments with a followup to my observations, rather than wasting your time dignifying the two guys that used up valuable thread space insulting you for being human enough to make a typo.

Your dissent is valued by at least me, and all opinions are welcome. I still say Echostar has made more than just a minor blunder. (Read:MAJOR BLUNDER)

tampa8

07-19-03, 08:15 AM

Flht,
I hope we aren't getting too far off the thread!

"2. 28 people is actually statistically significant to about +-10-15%. It takes 345 people to be at +-3-4% Like election exit poles, and 900 is enough for +-1-2%. So think what you want, but no less then 3-4 out of every ten of us "fanatics" wanted this feature, and claim they won't buy without it. That's way too big a number for Dish to not see sales suffer. They will get away with it though, and offer an updated unit in a couple years. Big companies always get away with it."

This would be an example of distorting numbers. Those 28 people are simply not representative of a controlled, true poll. It is essential that a true poll be one where people are contacted, not where they seek to vote. In this case there could be several ways to go, calling only satellite customers and establishing if they will pay $999 for a receiver that does xxx is a start. If you are concentrating on just this issue, then you would describe what the unit does, and point out that is does not output to more than one tv when watching HD. (There are some other steps but for brevity ...) Then only of the people who would by that unit, ask if the lack of this feature would prevent you from buying it, and/or ask if for a higher cost with this feature would you buy. (there are some variations of this that can be used) One of the main points here, this is a random sampling of the general population that has satellite now being contacted. To use the figures above from your reply would greatly make a skewed poll even worse. It might make a manufacturer not produce the product, but it would be based on wrong information. It is highly likely Dish has already done some type of polling before making this product. (I may be giving them too much credit) I will say, another path, closer to what you are saying could be used. You could contact only those with HD receivers now and ask the same questions. And/or, contact only those with PVR's now. It is certainly ok to target who you think will buy, but it has to be very controlled to get the correct results. If you could have a poll at an internet site and rely on it, polling organizations would not be needed. I cannot over - state the importance of being contacted in a contolled manor, versus seeking to vote.
By the way, pointing out the lack of a feature is usually used in a different set of circumstances, but to stay true to this discussion that is what would need to be done. I must also say the price of this seems to me does support what you are saying - many buyers it would seem would be more informed as we are at DBS or at AVS. But with that said, we still are not representative of the general PVR, HD or overall satellite buying public. You cannot assume that "others" will not jump in and buy. That was a mistake Motorola made early on with cell phones. Nokia produced for the masses, with all kinds of accessories, making them available everywhere. Motorola thought only certain segments would buy and even to this day do not offer the same kind of general appeal phones with accessories. Same mistake HP made when desktop computers were just becoming available. They did not think every home would have one.

Ace

07-19-03, 10:51 AM

Tampa8, Rather than stoop to the level of Ace & Nick, how about at least responding directly to the only legitimate challenge to your opinion that the poll is skewed. Mine.

Look up and quote my response to your post up about 5 posts from here, and defend your arguments with a followup to my observations, rather than wasting your time dignifying the two guys that used up valuable thread space insulting you for being human enough to make a typo.

Your dissent is valued by at least me, and all opinions are welcome. I still say Echostar has made more than just a minor blunder. (Read:MAJOR BLUNDER)

Geez, dude you need to lighten up. I didn't insult anyone, I just thought it was funny. Don't you ever find things funny sometimes. Oh no, I just took up more valuable thread space. So shoot me!

flht

07-19-03, 01:31 PM

Geez, dude you need to lighten up. I didn't insult anyone, I just thought it was funny. Don't you ever find things funny sometimes. Oh no, I just took up more valuable thread space. So shoot me!

Ace, No Worries, you were just my hook to get Tampa8 to respond, and he did. Thanks to you both. Feel free to add your levity any time, but try to throw in something poignant too.

Tampa8, thanks for the followup post on polling. By the way, the (skewed hehehe) poll is up to 43 votes and still holding near 50/50.

So basically,
As I understand your post,

Either,
1. Get 4,000 people on the phone; throw out the 3,960 that have no interest the 921; ask the remaining 40 if they would buy without the feature and expect that more than 1/2 (20) would still buy.

2. Get 40 people on the phone that own both a 6000 and a 721, 501, or 508. and expect that more than 1/2 (20) would still buy.

...and you are saying that those results would be drastically different then the informed view of those at AVS.

OK, but of course that's just your educated opinion, I could still be right.

I still declare MAJOR BLUNDER!

Ace

07-19-03, 07:30 PM

Ace, No Worries, you were just my hook to get Tampa8 to respond, and he did. Thanks to you both. Feel free to add your levity any time, but try to throw in something poignant too.

Tampa8, thanks for the followup post on polling. By the way, the (skewed hehehe) poll is up to 43 votes and still holding near 50/50.

So basically,
As I understand your post,

Either,
1. Get 4,000 people on the phone; throw out the 3,960 that have no interest the 921; ask the remaining 40 if they would buy without the feature and expect that more than 1/2 (20) would still buy.

2. Get 40 people on the phone that own both a 6000 and a 721, 501, or 508. and expect that more than 1/2 (20) would still buy.

...and you are saying that those results would be drastically different then the informed view of those at AVS.

OK, but of course that's just your educated opinion, I could still be right.

I still declare MAJOR BLUNDER!

Flht, we're cool. Message received and understood.

SpenceJT

07-23-03, 03:42 PM

My GOD!

The next thing you guys will be discussing will be the air-speed, velocity, and weight capacity of a Swallow carrying a coconut! ;)

thescrub

07-23-03, 04:20 PM

African or European swallow?

BobMurdoch

07-24-03, 08:42 AM

Until we actually get our hands on the bleeping things this all we CAN do...........

chris_h

07-24-03, 03:51 PM

Are you suggesting that coconuts are migratory?!? How about 921s?