Loss of Sat signal = no AM21 working!

[KVH]

I work for a custom home theater company, and we recently started adding AM21's to our clients systems in the event of loss of signal they can still watch HD locals with the AM21 tuners. Well, here in Wis, we were just dumped on with about 18" of snow.....

If you have DTV you did loose some if not all signal at some point (myself included, thank you roof rake!). Too much thick snow on the dishes. One thing we found is if you loose signal, you cannot use the AM21. Which is the only reason for putting them in. Most clients don't care for or even know about the multicast channels, so take that out of the equation.

Why does DTV basically disable the use of the AM21 in bad weather if you cannot download the guide? We don't need the guide to tune in channels! That is the sole purpose of us installing the AM21, it's for bad weather. Now if the weather bad enough and you loose signal long enough for the box to re-boot itself, and they do trying to find a signal (mine did), you now are stuck at the setup menu and cannot go any further. Which now makes the AM21 useless!

So Friday I had to go back to a clients home, pull the AM21 and hookup the ant to the TV tuner, back feed audio, and re-program the remote. Thanks DTV!
I like the idea of the AM21, but don't "disable" it when you have loss of signal. The old H10's were able to tune in locals without a sat signal. Until DTV changed that of course. We would use H10's to tune in locals for trade shows without having to get a sat feed to the box.

Anyone experience this and or know a workaround to keep the local tuning capability even with loss of signal!
* note when I say loss of signal, it's after the sat box re-boots itself and stops at the sat setup screen* My H23 did this, and so did our clients HR-23.

Kevin

[BattleZone]

Unfortunately, due to other design decisions, the way it works today isn't going to change.

[RobertE]

Considering your in the land of snow & cheese, I'd sell your clients on a dish heater. :)

[gfrang]

Just use a signal splitter before the am21 and to the tv tuner or just stop selling the am21's.
I ran out of audio optical inputs on my AVR so i am getting a switch.

[PokerJoker]

Unfortunately, due to other design decisions, the way it works today isn't going to change.

"Stupid" seems inadequate to describe such design decisions.

Keith

[KVH]

Just use a signal splitter before the am21 and to the tv tuner or just stop selling the am21's.
I ran out of audio optical inputs on my AVR so i am getting a switch.

We're going to stop using the AM21. A poor decision to need sat signal for an OTA tuner!

For your running out of optical inputs, if you have unused digital coaxial inputs, you could get an optical to digital coax converter an still use the AVR without a switch.

[gfrang]

We're going to stop using the AM21. A poor decision to need sat signal for an OTA tuner!

For your running out of optical inputs, if you have unused digital coaxial inputs, you could get an optical to digital coax converter an still use the AVR without a switch.

I ran out of coax inputs also so i think i should be looking for a AVR with HDMI switching.

[KVH]

I ran out of coax inputs also so i think i should be looking for a AVR with HDMI switching.

Then I agree, time to UPGRADE!!!

[BattleZone]

"Stupid" seems inadequate to describe such design decisions.

Keith

Perhaps, but keep in mind that DirecTV designed their receivers with their first priority as receiving SATELLITE signals. OTA capabilities were far down on the list of priorities, and becomes increasingly so as DirecTV gets more and more DMAs covered with locals.

[kevinwmsn]

I'll have to test this on my hr20-700 when I get home to see if it exhibits similiar behavior. Every area does have bad weather where you won't get signal from the satellites. It wasn't that long ago where you couldn't watch recordings on the DVR unless you had signal.

[IDRick]

KVH,

Buy an a/b switch. Use the antenna downlead as your input. Connect output A to AM21 and output B to the tv. Set the a/b switch on A for normal operation. If sat goes down, then switch to B. Easy peasy for less than $10.

HTH

Rick

[Jaspear]

Perhaps, but keep in mind that DirecTV designed their receivers with their first priority as receiving SATELLITE signals. OTA capabilities were far down on the list of priorities, and becomes increasingly so as DirecTV gets more and more DMAs covered with locals.

Even an afterthought product should not cause the problems the AM21 does.

[MartyS]

Hmm... I have an AM-21 connected to my HR 22 and I have the antenna going directly into my HR20.

When we lose signals because of heavy rains down here in Florida I can still view my OTA on both of those units, either via the AM21 and the directly connect HR20. My wife and I do that regularly. I wonder why the snow is causing the issue for you in your installs.

[David MacLeod]

ota used a lot here in snowstorms, it may be an afterthought to them but to this user its very critical.

[Lee L]

Even an afterthought product should not cause the problems the AM21 does.

Unless the inability to use the OTA signals is intentional. Pretty sure the HR10-250 did OTA just fine with no signal. The HR2x series did not.

To the OP, since all consumer Tvs come with OTA tuners now, why not run teh line to teh TV location and they can tune in there? Unless you only are talking about projectors and commercial plasmas or something.

[Jeremy W]

When we lose signals because of heavy rains down here in Florida I can still view my OTA on both of those units, either via the AM21 and the directly connect HR20. My wife and I do that regularly. I wonder why the snow is causing the issue for you in your installs.
The OP was not clear, but this only becomes an issue if you lose the signal and the receiver reboots. If you simply lose the signal and the receiver stays on, you will still have access to OTA channels.

[Jeremy W]

Unless the inability to use the OTA signals is intentional. Pretty sure the HR10-250 did OTA just fine with no signal. The HR2x series did not.
Whether DirecTV wanted the OTA disabled or not, I have no idea. But with the way the OTA system is designed, it would be impossible to allow it to be used after a reboot without guide data.

It's not a simple "If no signal, then disable OTA" statement. It stems down to a rather shortsighted design decision, where the guide data is the sole determiner of what channels are received. This design decision has caused many other problems with OTA in the past, and will continue to cause them into the future.

[KVH]

KVH,

Buy an a/b switch. Use the antenna downlead as your input. Connect output A to AM21 and output B to the tv. Set the a/b switch on A for normal operation. If sat goes down, then switch to B. Easy peasy for less than $10.

HTH

Rick

For our clients that's a no go. The point of the AM21 is for when sat goes down. An A/B switch would confuse most if not all.

[Jeremy W]

For our clients that's a no go. The point of the AM21 is for when sat goes down.
Put the DVR on a UPS. Problem solved.

[KVH]

The OP was not clear, but this only becomes an issue if you lose the signal and the receiver reboots. If you simply lose the signal and the receiver stays on, you will still have access to OTA channels.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said....
* note when I say loss of signal, it's after the sat box re-boots itself and stops at the sat setup screen*
=)

[KVH]

Put the DVR on a UPS. Problem solved.

The real solution would be for the AM21 to work without a sat signal. Period! All it would take would be a firmware update!

The original H10 worked this way. (Until DTV "fixed" it)

[Jeremy W]

The real solution would be for the AM21 to work without a sat signal. Period! All it would take would be a firmware update!
Yes, a firmware update would fix it. Developing that firmware update would be a fairly complex task, and with OTA being less and less of a priority for DirecTV, it's not going to happen. So the realistic solution is a UPS.

[KVH]

Whether DirecTV wanted the OTA disabled or not, I have no idea. But with the way the OTA system is designed, it would be impossible to allow it to be used after a reboot without guide data.

It's not a simple "If no signal, then disable OTA" statement. It stems down to a rather shortsighted design decision, where the guide data is the sole determiner of what channels are received. This design decision has caused many other problems with OTA in the past, and will continue to cause them into the future.

On my H23 I have about a weeks worth of guide info. That's plenty of data to keep the OTA guide channels to show up until the dish can be cleaned and the box run through the setup once again.

I agree that it's a shortsighted design the way it is now. Oh well, nothing we can do but wait to see if things change.

[KVH]

Yes, a firmware update would fix it. Developing that firmware update would be a fairly complex task, and with OTA being less and less of a priority for DirecTV, it's not going to happen. So the realistic solution is a UPS.

Firmware = free for clients.
UPS = more cost for clients. Not all have the money for "extras".

I would think an update to fix this issue would be fairly easy. But the only things I program are universal remotes =)

[RobertE]

As I said in post #3, sell them a dish heater. Then they won't have to worry about snow/ice buildup. The box then won't be starved for guide data. Since it won't be starved for guide data, it won't automaticly reboot. Problem solved. :)

[Jeremy W]

I would think an update to fix this issue would be fairly easy.
I can assure you that it would not.

[KVH]

I can assure you that it would not.

To change the firmware would be as simple as NOT checking for signal to use OTA!

But to get them to make the change I agree. Not anytime soon.

[KVH]

Also the use of a UPS would not be of any benefit! We're not loosing power to the sat box. Just signal. A UPS will not keep the signal from being blocked by snow. Just an FYI!

We are now running an extra wire to dishes starting today in case a heater is needed.

[Jeremy W]

To change the firmware would be as simple as NOT checking for signal to use OTA!
You're not listening. I'm only going to say this one more time, so please listen:

The signal (guide data) is what tells the receiver what channels it can get OTA. Without the signal (guide data) the receiver has absolutely no idea what channels it can tune. In order to change this, the OTA code would have to be redone to allow the receiver to scan for and store OTA channels, instead of relying on the guide data. This is not an easy change.

[skyviewmark1]

You're not listening. I'm only going to say this one more time, so please listen:

The signal (guide data) is what tells the receiver what channels it can get OTA. Without the signal (guide data) the receiver has absolutely no idea what channels it can tune. In order to change this, the OTA code would have to be redone to allow the receiver to scan for and store OTA channels, instead of relying on the guide data. This is not an easy change.

You mean like Dish Network receivers do.. :)

[KVH]

You're not listening. I'm only going to say this one more time, so please listen:

The signal (guide data) is what tells the receiver what channels it can get OTA. Without the signal (guide data) the receiver has absolutely no idea what channels it can tune. In order to change this, the OTA code would have to be redone to allow the receiver to scan for and store OTA channels, instead of relying on the guide data. This is not an easy change.

Dude calm down.
Are you a programmer for DTV? Either way it doesn't matter. I know how things work and I know it's not going to change any time soon. I'm only speculating on what would be the fix anyway.

[JoeTheDragon]

You're not listening. I'm only going to say this one more time, so please listen:

The signal (guide data) is what tells the receiver what channels it can get OTA. Without the signal (guide data) the receiver has absolutely no idea what channels it can tune. In order to change this, the OTA code would have to be redone to allow the receiver to scan for and store OTA channels, instead of relying on the guide data. This is not an easy change.
Can't they just send down the OTA and VOD guide data over the internet to HXX boxes that are hook up to the internet?

[David MacLeod]

guess this is related to topic, I've often wondered if the units even COULD scan with a software update. does the hardware itself support actual scanning?

[Jeremy W]

I've often wondered if the units even COULD scan with a software update. does the hardware itself support actual scanning?
Scanning is simply tuning to each physical channel, one after the other, and checking if there's a usable signal or not. It's not a hardware feature, it's a software feature. As a matter of fact, the AM21 did scan for channels in the beginning.

[David MacLeod]

I did not know that, thanks.

[Lee L]

Scanning is simply tuning to each physical channel, one after the other, and checking if there's a usable signal or not. It's not a hardware feature, it's a software feature. As a matter of fact, the AM21 did scan for channels in the beginning.

So, the AM21 used scan for channels and they changed it with a SW rev but you are saying it is terribly difficult to re-enable this feature?

[Jeremy W]

So, the AM21 used scan for channels and they changed it with a SW rev but you are saying it is terribly difficult to re-enable this feature?
The old code base with the scanning is long gone. If they even still have that code around, it would have to be re-integrated into the current code base, regression tested, bug fixed, etc. If the code is not around, or the code base has changed so much that it's useless, they'd have to write it from scratch.

So yes, I am saying that it would be terribly difficult to re-enable this feature. And there's no really compelling reason to do it.

[CCarncross]

So, the AM21 used scan for channels and they changed it with a SW rev but you are saying it is terribly difficult to re-enable this feature?

The AM21 never had the ability to scan for channels, the H20 STB's were /are the only STBs that would actually scan for channels. All other OTA tuner models except above have always scanned a database based on the entered zip code to determine the channels it would receive regardless of what else it could have picked up by actually scanning all the frequencies for ATSC OTA.

[Jeremy W]

The AM21 never had the ability to scan for channels
Thinking back, you're right. I was thinking of something else.