7.1 analog output [Archive]

OptimusPrime

12-28-09, 08:14 AM

Hello!

I have a friend with a Sony BDPS350. He is upset that he cannot experience Dolby TruHD because his AVR (a Harmon Kardon model) does not accept HDMI. So, I told him he can either upgrade his receiver to one that accepts HDMI, or look into a Blu-ray player that has analog multi-channel outputs.

Problem is - these Blur-ray players appear to be more costly than those without the analog jacks.

Any suggestions for affordable Blu-ray players with analog outputs? He asked about the PS3, but I don't think it has analog jacks.

Thanks!

P.S. - At some point, I'll eventually purchase a Blu-ray player - but I want to make sure it would work right with my receiver - the Denon AVR 3300. Anybody out there successfully setup their Blu-ray with this type of receiver using the analog jacks?

Stuart Sweet

12-28-09, 08:16 AM

I don't know if this helps or hurts the topic, but I've got a Sony BDPS350 and a receiver that doesn't accept HDMI. I use the optical out and while I admit the system isn't the greatest, I think it works really well using DTS over optical.

wilbur_the_goose

12-28-09, 08:44 AM

Steve

12-28-09, 08:53 AM

The LG BD390 offers 7 channel output and can decode DTS HD and Dolby True HD. I think the street price is around $250.

OptimusPrime

12-28-09, 09:01 AM

My friend, sometimes to a fault - always wants the best. I too, at times - get the "gimmies." His current set-up is awesome, but I think he's more frustrated at the fact that he "thought" he had a 7.1 system, and it is being underutilized due to improper set-up/decoding, etc. He wants a solution to get Dolby TruHD, but I can't think of another solution other than the one I already gave him.

On my old setup, I used an LG tv that passed 5.1/DTS through the optical output. Sounded awesome. I've since upgraded to better speakers and a new TV. At the time, I had no idea that this was uncommon to most TV's. My new Samsung has a far better picture, but only passes through 2 channel stereo via optical - so anything and everything has to go directly to the receiver to get 5.1 and DTS (which isn't a problem except for the fact that I have to buy a converter plug for my Xbox 360 - not happy about this).

When the time/price is right, I'll get a Blu-ray - I'm just really curious if anyone was able to connect using the analog jacks and what the level of quality is. My receiver will have one remaining unused optical port, so if need be, I can always plug into there for 5.1 and DTS - but, if it is better to go through the RCA jacks to get all 8 channels, uncompressed and sounding incredible, I'd rather go that route.

mutelight

12-28-09, 10:18 AM

The Samsung BD-P3600 has 7.1 analog out with onboard decoding of the latest lossless formats.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TK3D4K/ref=asc_df_B001TK3D4K994657?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B001TK3D4K&tag=cnet-2342-20

Another option is the Pioneer BDP-320.

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-BDP-320-1080p-Blu-ray-Player/dp/tech-data/B001U3Y5TI/ref=de_a_smtd

tnsprin

12-28-09, 11:21 AM

Optimus,
I have a Denon AVR-5803, and my Blu-Ray is connected via Toslink.

I honestly don't think the sound could be any better than it is. I think you'll be fine

(just make sure you have good speakers and room acoustics - these are much more important than the new audio formats to getting good audio)

You need to hear a high-end receiver that supports the HDMI (or analog) connection from a Blu-Ray player playing these new codecs. The difference is significant.

I have a Denon-5800 and a Denon 4308CI.

olguy

12-28-09, 11:32 AM

Cholly

12-28-09, 12:04 PM

P.S. - At some point, I'll eventually purchase a Blu-ray player - but I want to make sure it would work right with my receiver - the Denon AVR 3300. Anybody out there successfully setup their Blu-ray with this type of receiver using the analog jacks?

You can use any Blu-ray player that has component video and optical audio outputs with your Denon. However, you will not get 7.1 audio. That is available only via HDMI inputs. You can, however, enjoy 5.1 audio with it.
Best bet for an outstanding Blu-ray player at a reasonable price is the Panasonic DMP-BD60K. You can get it from Amazon for $127.30 as of today, with free shipping.

For a player with 7.1 analog output, look no further than the Panasonic DMP-BD80K. You can get it from www.bhphotovideo.com for $189.95 with free shipping. The only player rated higher is the Oppo.

mutelight

12-28-09, 02:01 PM

You need to hear a high-end receiver that supports the HDMI (or analog) connection from a Blu-Ray player playing these new codecs. The difference is significant.

I have a Denon-5800 and a Denon 4308CI.

Agreed, the imaging is much more open and seamless and the dynamic range is very impressive. They do undoubtedly reproduce better sound but whether it is all the significant is down the the configuration of the whole system as well as the listener themselves.

The other week I replaced my Denon with a Pioneer SC-25 and I can hear a massive difference in the sound quality whereas some of my friends claim it sounds the same.

Grentz

12-28-09, 02:04 PM

It depends on more than just the connection/sound format. You also need to have a good receiver, good speakers, etc. to tell the differences.

OptimusPrime

12-28-09, 03:36 PM

My Denon AVR 3300, in addition to the 3 optical inputs, does have 8 analog inputs - they are labeled as front L/R, surround L/R, effect L/R, C, and sub - so, I assume it would work with a Blu-ray player that has 7.1 channel analog output.

It would be awesome in MonoPrice or BlueJeans would offer a kind of "all-in-one" RCA analog surround cable connection for this application.

Oops. It appears that Blue Jeans does offer this type of cable (too bad it's over 100 bucks!)

Steve

12-28-09, 04:46 PM

[...] Oops. It appears that Blue Jeans does offer this type of cable (too bad it's over 100 bucks!)Lots of cheaper ones here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=8+channel+rca+cable&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=).

mutelight

12-28-09, 05:28 PM

tralfaz

12-28-09, 06:26 PM

I think he's more frustrated at the fact that he "thought" he had a 7.1 system, and it is being underutilized due to improper set-up/decoding, etc.

You can use any Blu-ray player that has component video and optical audio outputs with your Denon. However, you will not get 7.1 audio. That is available only via HDMI inputs. You can, however, enjoy 5.1 audio with it.

I think there's a bit of confusion here. The new (HD) audio formats have nothing to do with 7.1. If a DVD or Blu Ray has 7.1 channel DD or DTS, you'll get it via optical. You can also use PLIIx to convert a 5.1 track to 7.1 (regardless of whether it's via HDMI or optical).

Optical won't, however transmit the new audio formats (DD TrueHD, DTS-MA), you need HDMI (or analog) to do that. It's not the same thing as 7.1, however. Many people have been using 7.1 long before these new codecs came (and before HDMI, as well).

As to the sound difference, it's mainly dependent upon your equipment and your room. DD and DTS can sound very good. The lossless audio is almost always better. Some people can't tell the difference between Blu Ray and SD-DVD either. Some people think it's night and day.

wilbur_the_goose

12-28-09, 06:39 PM

Big question - how many BD's have the new CODECs?

I watched "Express" in DD 5.1 on Saturday, and it sounded 100x better than any movie theater I've been in.

Again - the most important things are your speakers and room acoustics.

PS - I have the new Sony BCP-CX960 400 BD/DVD changer - it outputs at 96kHz and it sounds SWEET

tralfaz

12-28-09, 06:48 PM

Big question - how many BD's have the new CODECs?

Most BD's have either DTS-MA, DD True-HD, or LPCM which are all lossless codecs. Obviously, there's some with only DD or DTS, but most (especially those released in the last year or so) have a lossless choice.

mutelight

12-28-09, 07:02 PM

I think there's a bit of confusion here. The new (HD) audio formats have nothing to do with 7.1. If a DVD or Blu Ray has 7.1 channel DD or DTS, you'll get it via optical. You can also use PLIIx to convert a 5.1 track to 7.1 (regardless of whether it's via HDMI or optical).

Optical won't, however transmit the new audio formats (DD TrueHD, DTS-MA), you need HDMI (or analog) to do that. It's not the same thing as 7.1, however. Many people have been using 7.1 long before these new codecs came (and before HDMI, as well).

As to the sound difference, it's mainly dependent upon your equipment and your room. DD and DTS can sound very good. The lossless audio is almost always better. Some people can't tell the difference between Blu Ray and SD-DVD either. Some people think it's night and day.

No confusion because there are no DVDs with anything more than Dolby Digital EX which is matrixed 6.1 and DTS ES which is a mixture of 6.1 discrete and matrixed, depending on the mix.

Before these codecs there were no discrete 7.1 formats. Those that were listening in 7.1 long before were relying on their AVRs to upmix the audio on the disc.

Big question - how many BD's have the new CODECs?

I watched "Express" in DD 5.1 on Saturday, and it sounded 100x better than any movie theater I've been in.

Again - the most important things are your speakers and room acoustics.

PS - I have the new Sony BCP-CX960 400 BD/DVD changer - it outputs at 96kHz and it sounds SWEET

Out of the over 150 movies I own as well as show seasons, there is only one that does not have either Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, or LPCM audio.

*edit* Here is a great list of what format, bit depth, sample rate, and the number of channels in the mix for BD movies.
http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

tralfaz

12-28-09, 07:17 PM

No confusion because there are no DVDs with anything more than Dolby Digital EX which is matrixed 6.1 and DTS ES which is a mixture of 6.1 discrete and matrixed, depending on the mix.

Before these codecs there were no discrete 7.1 formats. Those that were listening in 7.1 long before were relying on their AVRs to upmix the audio on the disc.

Agreed. Just re-read my post and confused myself. What I meant was that the new codecs do not necessarily mean 7.1 (which seems to be what people were implying). Most BD's that have the new codecs aren't in 7.1, they're in 5.1 anyway (while the list of 7.1 seems to be growing), and you have to use the same processing to get 7.1 that you would use with optical. It's not that optical can't handle 7.1 (if DD and/or DTS would have released a lossy 7.1 codec, optical would have worked fine theoretically), it can't handle lossless. It just so happens that 7.1 was never made available in the old format (they started working on HD audio in 2004) or optical should have been able to carry it if they had.

In other words, you can get 7.1 via optical if your receiver does the processing, but it won't be lossless. And just because you are using HDMI (or analog) and getting the lossless audio, doesn't mean you're getting 7.1.

mutelight

12-28-09, 07:29 PM

Agreed. Just re-read my post and confused myself. What I meant was that the new codecs do not necessarily mean 7.1 (which seems to be what people were implying). Most BD's that have the new codecs aren't in 7.1, they're in 5.1 anyway (while the list of 7.1 seems to be growing), and you have to use the same processing to get 7.1 that you would use with optical. It's not that optical can't handle 7.1 (if DD and/or DTS would have released a lossy 7.1 codec, optical would have worked fine theoretically), it can't handle lossless. It just so happens that 7.1 was never made available in the old format (they started working on HD audio in 2004) or optical should have been able to carry it if they had.

In other words, you can get 7.1 via optical if your receiver does the processing, but it won't be lossless. And just because you are using HDMI (or analog) and getting the lossless audio, doesn't mean you're getting 7.1.

Gotcha, you are indeed correct. :cool:

Optical could technically handle lossless 7.1 audio (in regards to bandwidth) as well but since it was a finalized spec with millions of devices already out on the market, the TOSLINK specification had to be adhered to.

mabellboi

12-28-09, 07:48 PM

Gotcha, you are indeed correct. :cool:

Optical could technically handle lossless 7.1 audio (in regards to bandwidth) as well but since it was a finalized spec with millions of devices already out on the market, the TOSLINK specification had to be adhered to.

This is what I don't get about how these things work.... if my AVR has a TOSLINK input, why in the hell didn't they put the processing in for "lossless"... the only thing I can come back to, is MONEY AND GREED...

edit: or, update the spec? Is anyone else missing the boat on that? Think of the HDMI spec... 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc??? HDMI has been "upgraded"...

mutelight

12-28-09, 07:55 PM

This is what I don't get about how these things work.... if my AVR has a TOSLINK input, why in the hell didn't they put the processing in for "lossless"... the only thing I can come back to, is MONEY AND GREED...

edit: or, update the spec? Is anyone else missing the boat on that? Think of the HDMI spec... 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc??? HDMI has been "upgraded"...

But much earlier in the life cycle than how old TOSLINK was before the new audio formats came out many years later. Also, every version of HDMI supports 8 channel LPCM, 192 kHz, 24 bit audio capability. It was only things like bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA that was added on in later revisions, however the spec from the beginning was set up to handle the much higher sample rate, bit depth, and number of channels since 1.0.

Cholly

12-29-09, 10:31 AM

Agreed. Just re-read my post and confused myself. What I meant was that the new codecs do not necessarily mean 7.1 (which seems to be what people were implying). Most BD's that have the new codecs aren't in 7.1, they're in 5.1 anyway (while the list of 7.1 seems to be growing), and you have to use the same processing to get 7.1 that you would use with optical. It's not that optical can't handle 7.1 (if DD and/or DTS would have released a lossy 7.1 codec, optical would have worked fine theoretically), it can't handle lossless. It just so happens that 7.1 was never made available in the old format (they started working on HD audio in 2004) or optical should have been able to carry it if they had.

In other words, you can get 7.1 via optical if your receiver does the processing, but it won't be lossless. And just because you are using HDMI (or analog) and getting the lossless audio, doesn't mean you're getting 7.1.

In my original post, I obviously misstated -- when I said you can't get 7.1, I really meant Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD. In the case of the OP's Denon, he can indeed get the new audio formats if he gets a Blu-ray player like the Panasonic DMP-BD80 and connects the 7.1 outs to the 7.1 analog inputs on his receiver.

wilbur_the_goose

12-29-09, 10:51 AM

Cholly, 100% correct...

But I'm not going to switch from my (original price) $5K AVR-5803 when it does a better job than anything I've heard in the stores in the last few years.

I could go with an analog 7.1 hookup, but I love the Sony BDP-CX960 400 disc changer - it's brought my entire collection back to life.

(don't laugh - it's hooked to my ISF-calibrated Sony LCD 60" TV via - DVI!)

lugnutathome

01-08-10, 05:24 PM

Every versions standards of HDMI does in fact support multi channel PCM audio but the device manufacturers don't always adhere to the full spec.

I've an 06 Yamaha RX-V2600 "7.1" receiver in my workout room that has 2 HDMI 1.1 inputs but is capped at 5.1 channels of PCM input. It will take DD-EX and DTS-ES bitstream and convert to 6/7.1 output. OR with the THX soundfields ASA (Adaptive Speaker Array) processing it creates a 7.1 soundfield from a 5.1 source. This model predates the HD audio codecs.

For this unit I've an older Sony BDP-S550 and use its internal decoders for the TrueHd and DTS-HD Master codecs down through multi channel PCM via HDMI. I could use the analog out on this model BUT analog out bypasses the digital processing in the receiver completely. Meaning I could not apply the THX for the ASA conversion to "7.1".

Analog inputs are GREAT for Super audio CD which features DSD (Direct stream digital) which is a digital representation of a complete analog waveform. SACD converts in the player via the DACs and comes out as a complete waveform directly to the amplifiers output circuits.

The Dolby/DTS codecs for HD audio however break down to multi channel PCM which is a compressed waveform and sampled not streamed in its entirety.

This breakdown occurs within the BR player if using its internal decoders which is then either passed down as multichannel PCM via HDMI OR run through Multichannel DAC (Digital to Analog Converters) for analog out.

OR this breakdown occurs at the receiver when received as HDMI bitstream to the receivers internal decoders.

Cheaper BlueRay players will pass the HD codecs as bitstream requiring the receiver be capable of the decoding. Typically they will decode Dolby Digital TrueHd and pass as LPCM but they won't decode DTS HD codecs.

This may be OK for you as standard DTS on BlueRay is at a 1.5 megabit rate (it's standard) it has a low speed rate of 768 megabit which is common on most standard DVDs that have multiple soundtracks aboard.

Standard Dolby Digital is even lower than the 768 for its HIGH data rate. So a DTS BlueRay sounds really good on a BlueRay player even if it can't use the HD codecs. But the HD codecs for DTS are incredible! Not quite SACD quality but close enough for all but the most demanding audiophile.

Dolby TrueHD manipulates dialog normalization to "enhance" the other sounds. By turning the volume up to clearly hear the dialog one gets blown away by the sound effects when they kick in. This is not unlike how the old VCR pro logic was :-( Not quite as bad but still. DTS HD Master audio is not manipulated. Much fuller sound without having to tweak the volume.

Anyway using the analog outs on a DVD player is best for SACD. But if you've no HDMI in and you've a full set of HD decoders in the player!

If you can pass multi channel PCM via HDMI to the receiver thats pretty much like having the receiver itself decode the HD audio bitstream. If the receiver has the capability to decode the HD audio bitstream thats the way to go!

There are those that will argue conversion as close to the source as possible but with digital it either is or isn't and the receiver will tend to have better quality electronics than the players. (as a rule there are exceptions).

Don "sorry if this got too wordy" Bolton

But much earlier in the life cycle than how old TOSLINK was before the new audio formats came out many years later. Also, every version of HDMI supports 8 channel LPCM, 192 kHz, 24 bit audio capability. It was only things like bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA that was added on in later revisions, however the spec from the beginning was set up to handle the much higher sample rate, bit depth, and number of channels since 1.0.

mutelight

01-09-10, 02:11 AM

Cheaper BlueRay players will pass the HD codecs as bitstream requiring the receiver be capable of the decoding. Typically they will decode Dolby Digital TrueHd and pass as LPCM but they won't decode DTS HD codecs.

This may be OK for you as standard DTS on BlueRay is at a 1.5 megabit rate (it's standard) it has a low speed rate of 768 megabit which is common on most standard DVDs that have multiple soundtracks aboard.

I have yet to see a Blu-ray player that supports TrueHD decoding but not DTS-HD MA decoding but they may be out there. Also, DTS encodes on DVD are roughly 754 kbps while the core version of DTS-HD MA (features on BD titles) is a full 1.5 mbps.

I also believe you mean 768 kilobits per second.

Standard Dolby Digital is even lower than the 768 for its HIGH data rate. So a DTS BlueRay sounds really good on a BlueRay player even if it can't use the HD codecs. But the HD codecs for DTS are incredible! Not quite SACD quality but close enough for all but the most demanding audiophile.

Dolby Digital (AC3) on most DVDs is running at 448kbps. The AC3 audio on BD titles is in fact 640 kbps which is where the format tops out. That is of course until Dolby Labs bought out Meridian Lossless Packing and turned it into TrueHD.

Dolby TrueHD manipulates dialog normalization to "enhance" the other sounds. By turning the volume up to clearly hear the dialog one gets blown away by the sound effects when they kick in. This is not unlike how the old VCR pro logic was :-( Not quite as bad but still. DTS HD Master audio is not manipulated. Much fuller sound without having to tweak the volume.

What you are referring to is dynamic range and you are kind of smearing the concept behind dialog normalization or Dialnorm.

Basically because audio information is not as easily lost with the lossless compression formats on Blu-ray, it is not necessary to push the dialog track as high up in the mix, as the rest of the audio can remain low in the mix while retaining detail.

If you can pass multi channel PCM via HDMI to the receiver thats pretty much like having the receiver itself decode the HD audio bitstream. If the receiver has the capability to decode the HD audio bitstream thats the way to go!

That is entirely dependent on the player as there is an absolutely 100% indiscernible difference when I run a pre-decoded lossless audio stream to my receiver vs. a bitstream version.

This is a fairly interesting read on Bitstream vs. LPCM.
http://www.meridian-audio.com/ara/bitstrea.htm

There are those that will argue conversion as close to the source as possible but with digital it either is or isn't and the receiver will tend to have better quality electronics than the players. (as a rule there are exceptions).

I think what you are trying to say here is that the DAC is the most important step in the audio chain in regards to quality. The DAC in a good AVR will typically be stronger than those in a BD or DVD player outputting analog multi-channel out.

lugnutathome

01-12-10, 04:03 PM

Yeah I did mean Kbps but DTS standard spec is for a full rate of 1.5 megabit its just uncommon on std DVDs due to all the other audio tracks on board and the space available. There was a time when there were a wash of DTS music material out there in the full rate but they were not so well adopted as to become a mainstay.

As to the BlueRay players Sony's BDP-S3x0 line has internal decoding for DD TrueHD but not the DTS HD codecs. Passes bit streams for either just fine though. Reading the brochures is a bit confusing but I saw similar specs with the lower end Pannies, and Sammies.

As to my "smearing" dialog normalization that is likely true:( I did read where DD TrueHD did manipulate the waveform however and on my systems at home I find the TrueHD more like the old ProLogic in that the dialog can be awful quiet one minute only to be sound effect deafened the next. It seems to require an almost 5db boost from my DTS-HD disks. Could be the mastering but seems consistent across multiple titles.

Reality is I'm just a consumer and I apply a bit of backwoods translation to my understandings. I appreciate the corrections. Its hows ah lerns :grin:

Don "not rely an AV perfeshinal" Bolton
I have yet to see a Blu-ray player that supports TrueHD decoding but not DTS-HD MA decoding but they may be out there. Also, DTS encodes on DVD are roughly 754 kbps while the core version of DTS-HD MA (features on BD titles) is a full 1.5 mbps.

I also believe you mean 768 kilobits per second.

Dolby Digital (AC3) on most DVDs is running at 448kbps. The AC3 audio on BD titles is in fact 640 kbps which is where the format tops out. That is of course until Dolby Labs bought out Meridian Lossless Packing and turned it into TrueHD.

What you are referring to is dynamic range and you are kind of smearing the concept behind dialog normalization or Dialnorm.

Basically because audio information is not as easily lost with the lossless compression formats on Blu-ray, it is not necessary to push the dialog track as high up in the mix, as the rest of the audio can remain low in the mix while retaining detail.

That is entirely dependent on the player as there is an absolutely 100% indiscernible difference when I run a pre-decoded lossless audio stream to my receiver vs. a bitstream version.

This is a fairly interesting read on Bitstream vs. LPCM.
http://www.meridian-audio.com/ara/bitstrea.htm

I think what you are trying to say here is that the DAC is the most important step in the audio chain in regards to quality. The DAC in a good AVR will typically be stronger than those in a BD or DVD player outputting analog multi-channel out.

mutelight

01-13-10, 01:46 AM

I truly hope I didn't offend! I was just trying to expand upon what you posted. :D

I can see where you are coming with the dialog at times being problematic. With these new formats, since they are lossless, they are afforded a greater dynamic range where, if the system isn't calibrated just right, the dialog can become buried in the mix.

What is your current setup and are you decoding at the player or sending bitstream to your AVR? I would love to try to see if I could help you get this dialog under control because it can undoubtedly be annoying at times.

lugnutathome

01-13-10, 04:23 PM

No offense taken, when we type, emotional context is not visible. I'm a fairly confident sort so my words might be a bit terse at time to some despite me not meaning to be...

I have 4 BlueRay Players (2 PS3s which can only decode and send down multi channel PCM (older 60 and 40G units)) and 1 each Sony BDP-S350 and BDP-S550 players.

I've a total of 5 home theaters in the home 3 of which are 7.1 systems, 1 is a Yamaha YSP-1000 sound projector, and one is a Blows (Bose) 321-GSII (which for the room it is in is just fine in reality)

Both the PS3 units are connected to Yamaha receivers (RX-Z11 and RX-V3800) both of which can decode the HD bit streams(ironic) HDMI to receiver and out to monitor.

Then my BDP-S350 is connected to the sound projector which is not HD audio capable so its HDMI to the TV and optical to the sound projector.

My BDP-S550 is connected to a Yamaha RX-V2600 which is pre HD audio but can handle 5.1 PCM input. Its only capable to 1080i video but it outputs to a 32 inch display and I value the sound more so I use the HDMI to the receiver and then pass it to the TV. The TV then upconverts the video to 1080P anyhow (Sony 32 inch XBR6). I then use the THX ASA feature to expand the 5.1 audio source to 7.1 on playback. Could not do this coming in analog it would only be 5.1 unless the source media itself was 6 or 7.1 which is far more limited than 5.1. Programming material here is largely music (concert DVDs/BlueRays, and TV series packages on DVD). I've a Yamaha DVD changer with HDMI out that makes a great TV series unit. Load the whole season and flip through the disks as viewed.

All three 7.1 systems feature Klipsch Reference Series speakers (2 systems are the flagship "7" series and one the mid line "35" series (2005 vintage)) and the sound quality is exceptional in all. The big room has the big RF7 towers and the planet shattering dual sided RSW-15 sub while the video game room uses the RB75 bookshelf speakers and a dual sided 10 inch sub room front and a single cone 12 inch sub room rear.

My comment regarding True HD isn't that its as bad as Pro Logic was. It's clean and fine throughout the audio spectrum. BUT I do notice that there is a larger variance between the DD TrueHD and DTS HD/HD Master in the area the Yamaha receivers cover with a feature called "Dialog Normalization".

Plus ALL the Yamaha set ups have been done with the YPAQ optimizer so they have been optimized for their environments.

In reading that Dolby did "monkey" a bit with a portion of the spectrum whereas DTS did not, I tend to favor DTS media whenever possible. Either HD format is superb (DD or DTS) but I can hear a difference between them.

I do appreciate the offer.

My three 7.1 systems are breathtaking in their sound. My largest room is 25 x 43 and that Z11 is SPECTACULAR in there! My video game room is more "normal" sized although it too is close to 30 ft deep and the 3800 is quite nice in there. Then my workout room has the 2600 and its just perfect for that size of environment.

Don "more toys than common sense" Bolton

I truly hope I didn't offend! I was just trying to expand upon what you posted. :D

I can see where you are coming with the dialog at times being problematic. With these new formats, since they are lossless, they are afforded a greater dynamic range where, if the system isn't calibrated just right, the dialog can become buried in the mix.

What is your current setup and are you decoding at the player or sending bitstream to your AVR? I would love to try to see if I could help you get this dialog under control because it can undoubtedly be annoying at times.

OptimusPrime

01-31-10, 09:09 AM

It's been awhile since I've posted back - and I want to thank all of you for your help in this thread.

Regarding the analog outputs, is there any audible difference when compared to say an optical or HDMI connection? Again, with my setup, there is no way to get 7.1 unless I go analog. And of course, buying a new HDMI receiver is definitely out of the question right now.

The Samsung BD-P3600 has 7.1 analog out with onboard decoding of the latest lossless formats.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TK3D4K/ref=asc_df_B001TK3D4K994657?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B001TK3D4K&tag=cnet-2342-20

Another option is the Pioneer BDP-320.

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-BDP-320-1080p-Blu-ray-Player/dp/tech-data/B001U3Y5TI/ref=de_a_smtd

I'd also like to know what you guys think about that Samsung blu-ray player. I believe if you have a Samsung display, you can somehow integrate them to work special features and such with one remote through the HDMI connection.

Also, I've heard there are some pretty awesome LG blu-ray players.

Altcool

02-11-10, 07:56 PM

Check out AVS Forums There is a ton of information over their on blu ray and 7.1 analog connections. I run the Pioneer 51fd with 7.1 analog audio to my Marantz Sr8500. The sound is great. I get all the losses formats DTS and HD Master audio. The 51FD and the 05 are highly sought after players for their high fidelity audio output. Although they might be hard to come by now (new that is). Another plus with the Pioneer player is that is shows the bit rate for the audio and video in real time.

Tom Robertson

02-11-10, 08:11 PM

I'm very happy with my OPPO BD-83, excellent features, excellent sound. And plays durn near anything that fits in the slot. :)

Note, I did participate in the BD-83 field trial, tho I do not believe that gives me any particular bias--it works, works great, and is way awesome.

Now, I wish they had a 400 disk changer for it... :)

Cheers,
Tom

wilbur_the_goose

02-13-10, 12:50 PM

Most BD's have either DTS-MA, DD True-HD, or LPCM which are all lossless codecs. Obviously, there's some with only DD or DTS, but most (especially those released in the last year or so) have a lossless choice.
You were 100% correct. I purchased an Octava HDMI --> 7.1 analog converter and am VERY happy with the results.

Thanks for your push!

bobukcat

02-14-10, 05:06 PM

It's been awhile since I've posted back - and I want to thank all of you for your help in this thread.

Regarding the analog outputs, is there any audible difference when compared to say an optical or HDMI connection? Again, with my setup, there is no way to get 7.1 unless I go analog. And of course, buying a new HDMI receiver is definitely out of the question right now.

I'd also like to know what you guys think about that Samsung blu-ray player. I believe if you have a Samsung display, you can somehow integrate them to work special features and such with one remote through the HDMI connection.

Also, I've heard there are some pretty awesome LG blu-ray players.

Unless you really must have Netflix streaming I would not recommend the Samsung BD players. I know some people love them, etc. and I have an older one in the bedroom that works okay but I've also seen several people with problems with them.

I just hooked up a friends' Samsung 860 series 58" Plasma to her Panasonic BDP-60 BD player and the Samsung remote does indeed control the player over the HDMI connection with absolutely zero (and I really mean zero) additional steps. I'm not crazy about the fact it automatically switches the TV input when you turn the player on but she thinks it's awesome that it does that. This works well if you have them connected directly together via HDMI but if you run the HDMI through an AVR it may "break" that functionality depending on the AVR.