DVR 510 announced and monthly fee! [Archive] - Page 2

Darkman

07-30-03, 09:42 PM

i agree somewhat with dbronstein...

Good another example would be - Some people live in Getto and pay $300.00 per year in Property Taxes...
Others though - live in much nicer Area, where the Properly taxes lets say are $3000.00 per year...People might not be thrilled to pay $3000.00 to compare with others who are paying only $300.00 per year... But when it comes down to it - they do not really mind...They d rather pay more..and get away from Getto to much Nicer area...

So what i am trying to say - there are some people who do not even have PVR or DVR or 721 or 921... Nor are they planning to upgrade to any of those any time soon...

On the other hand there are others who do not mind to pay higher Price, More Fees, etc for a nicer Unit...Mind you some of those people are rewarded already (the fee is waved for them, cuz they are Getting lets say "Everything Pack")...

So that is just the way it goes...Some got it or will get it, and will pay the fee, other though will not be getting 510 etc..and will not be effected at all...

Another example is: "Driving a Ford vs. Driving a Mercedes"
Mercedes - higher Price, higher Insurance (to register the vehicle), Higher cost of parts, etc...
But some do not mind to Pay all this...

Big Bob

07-30-03, 09:45 PM

homam

07-30-03, 09:52 PM

D tv here we come

toad57

07-30-03, 09:58 PM

For those that want to look at TiVo patents, here is what a quick patent lookup on 'TiVo' as the Asignee Name turned up: 16 TiVo patents (http://tinyurl.com/il5h)

The main patent appears to be 6,233,389: Multimedia time warping system (http://tinyurl.com/il5w). I'm no patent lawyer but after reading this one it seems to me anybody's PVR/DVR is a copy of this. I tried to click on 'images' at the top of the page to see the actual filed documents, but ran into problems with the QuickTime Viewer showing me greatly enlarged sections of pages. Found that I needed to open the page in IE browser; Netscape had problems doing this.

I have not yet had time to completely go through this particular patent (or any of the others) to see if there is some kind of iron-clad lock on selecting programs to be recorded by name, but from what I have read thus far I cannot find any.

rbonzer

07-30-03, 10:00 PM

Well, I guess I've purchased my last dish equipment. I'm not going to buy another box that isn't a DVR (be it dish, direct, or cable). When I get my HDTV set, I guess I'll have to decide what the best choice is.

I can't believe that dish wants to charge up to $10/reciever for the features they provide. Sure, maybe they want to go to name based/subscription type features, but why do we have to pay for them before we get the features? Have they said that the 501/508/510 are going to get any new features?

I can't believe that they think they can get $10 for AT50 customers. AT100 is only $9 more, so it really ends up being only $4 more for all those extra channels. If you had TWO 501s, then you end up saving money getting AT100 over AT50. Maybe dish just wants more money per month for nothing. I guess they are hoping that no one is going to compare prices and features, because dish is going to look real bad.

I guess I'll stay a subscriber until I want a new piece of equipment. Which might be before Christmas. I can't hold out forever without HD.

Karl Foster

07-30-03, 10:04 PM

Here's how I come down on the issue (if anyone cares). I pay $9.95 per month for Ultimatetv (includes all three UTV units). While I am not thrilled about paying that every month, I am willing to do so as I feel the product is worth it. You may not, and that is your opinion. If I have to walk over to my unit and put a quarter and a nickel in it every day (less than the cost of a cup of coffee) to have it find my shows and automatically record them with little to no intervention from me, then I am happy to do so. In the two years I have had UTV receivers, I have received some very impressive software upgrades, as well as flawless performance - read no hard or soft re-boots, etc. The name-based recording feature alone comes close to justifying the monthly cost (others will slap me for saying so, but you can't miss what you've never had).

If you feel the product is not worth the extra fee, don't buy it, but I wouldn't have my tv any other way than with a good-qualtiy PVR attached to it.

Tivo does not own the patent on name-based recording. Hell, even the DishPlayer uses name-based recording, as does Replay and Ultimatetv, none of which are Tivo products.

toad57

07-30-03, 10:07 PM

Quess what? Echostar also has a patent on a similar device: 6,490,000 : Method and apparatus for time shifting and controlling broadcast audio and video signals (http://tinyurl.com/il7c).

Mike D-CO5

07-30-03, 10:20 PM

If they have a patent for name based recordings then why in the name of God do they not use it? Or was that the plan after all? They basicaly have let us have a taste of dvr services or Tivo light and now with the fees they will give us full Tivo features. Hook um with the basic features then charge um for season passes and other more expensive features. If this is true and Charlie has been waiting till now to unleash it, he might be smarter than we thought.

rtt2

07-30-03, 10:34 PM

That new ad slick on the public portion of the retailer website says that the 301/510 promotion goes into effect on 8/24. So I guess this means that the 510s are due to be released soon. If this is the case it looks like this fee is here to stay unfortunately. :shrug:
http://retailer.echostar.com/marketing/ads/fd23.asp
I was debating buying two 508s now or just leaving E* altogether. I am so disgusted at this point D* seems to be the direction I will be going at this point. But then it hit me...could this be just a trick to just deplete the current inventory of 508s & 501s just to release the 522 without a fee? Its probably just wishful thinking but I am keeping my fingers crossed that this will work itself out.
I can't believe the visceral response so far but it is truly merited in my opinion. It seems E* did not really think this through. Did they even use focus groups on this and if they did - did they have participants that were familiar with the software they would supposedly be paying for? I can't imagine people agreeing to fees in a focus group after realizing the software is user unfriendly, bare bones, buggy, & inferior.

RickD2003

07-30-03, 10:51 PM

Ive been a E* subscriber for about 5 years now after coming over from Primestar (I know, I know.) I have patiently been awaiting the 921 to hook up to my nice, new Sony 65" HDTV. However it seems my hopes and dreams have been dashed upon the rocks of corporate greed and gluttony.

I used to pay my bill by the year, but now will have to go on month to month to see how this turns out with the 921. If there are fees, then I will be making a call to D* to sign up for service as soon as the DirecTivo HD hits the shelves.

If this all turns out to be a big hoax by E* to move units out the door, then I MIGHT think about continuing as a subscriber for the following year, but my affinity with E* will be forever tarnished.

Here is hoping for the rise of common sense and the demise of corporate greed...

--Rick

btbrossard

07-30-03, 10:55 PM

Thank you dish network. You make it oh so easy to switch to another provider of Premium TV.

If you don't want my $100 a month I spend on your servive, it's OK. I'm sure someone else will. :flaiming

See you later, DISH.

/Benjamin

mdrobnak

07-30-03, 11:40 PM

I think this thread means a bit more than what is seen on the surface.

Quite honestly I wouldn't hesitate to plunk down an extra $5/month for DirecTiVo service. I honestly think it's worth much more than the current $4.99 it costs right now. I really love the service that much.

Dish subs are going nuts over this. I haven't seen anything like this since I started lurking here in March '02. This tells me that either 1) Dish subs abhor price hikes, or 2) they feel like the product they've got isn't worth $5/month. Rather than the former, it seems like it's the latter.

You've hit the nail on the head here -- I have a 501 sitting downstairs, with a 301 on top of it...Now, you ask, why is the 301 on top of it? Oh, that would be because the 501 glitches in playback from the HD and "live" TV...Only reason it's still here is to archive the stuff to VHS tape, then ship it back to Dish, and get my monthly price lowered on DHP. And yes, the software is horrible compared to a TiVo. Some revisions were good, but then they added stupid features like slow-motion play, and around that time the software just got worse and worse.

-Matthew Drobnak

dfergie

07-31-03, 12:55 AM

Maybe Im just naive, but I have had very few problems with my 501, and the ones I have had were cured with clearing off space in my HD. And it had done everything I have asked of it.

hokie94

07-31-03, 06:41 AM

Ok I just got the following email from Echostar spokesman Marc Lumpkin

I guess we can conder this OFFICIAL now...

Scott:

I really think members of this board should launch a PR campaign against Echostar. Hit them where it hurts. Send something to news organizations held by News Corp (Fox News for one) who will gladly be willing to pick it up because of their hatred for Ergen. Send something to the analysts that cover Dish stock (SG Cowen, Wachovia, Salomon Smith Barney & Bank of America). Send something to Ellen Sheng, the author of the following: http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030730/1828001648_1.htm

I figure it will sound more credible coming from someone like you than a novice like me.

Mike8675309

07-31-03, 07:07 AM

In my particular instance, I was an American Everything Pak customer for 2 years. I downgraded to Top 100 for this summer. I purchased a PVR501 when they first started their $199 promotion for them. I've been waiting for the PVR522 to arrive before purchasing another receiver. The PVR721 is just too expensive.

I've been willing to put up with the buggy PVR unit for the most part because the alternative required me to pay either a large up front fee, or a montly fee. I can hardly stand to live with the per receiver montly fee I get charged, let alone some other made up fee to use basic functionality of a hardware device I purchased.

If when the 522 comes out I will have to pay an additional fee on top of the extra receiver fee, I will actively start looking at what DirecTV can offer me. As a new subscriber, I'm sure I can get a extremely good deal. Because if I'm going to pay a fee for PVR service, it damn well better be the best PVR service available. And Dish Network's PVR service isn't even close.

Pete38

07-31-03, 07:20 AM

Hi all,

I've been a Dish Network customer for about 6 years. It was the fee structure that attracted me to Dish over the competition. It has been the lack of a monthly fee on my Dish PVR that has kept me as a customer. If Dish adds a monthly fee for using my PVR, that removes all reason for staying with Dish; the fees, the service and the hardware.

Dish folk, if you indeed read this forum, DO NOT DO THIS. If you need to raise your rates, do it another way. If you feel you must do it through a monthly PVR fee, please publicly explain your reasoning. If it's for legal reasons, and unavoidable, perhaps it may quell some of the outrage expressed in this forum thread.

Pete

jasonf

07-31-03, 07:26 AM

Problem with these new fees are this.

DVD Recorders are starting to pick up steam, and some have Hard drives in them. Pretty soon you will have a TIVO that is also a burner and has a 3day guide for free, you just can't do Season Passess etc. Sure they are expensive, but these new Pioneer Electronics boxes are very promising with a lot of cool features.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119629

RCA has a unit that is a DVD Player and a DVR, sure its no Tivo, however, it has a 3 day guide for free with no phone.
http://www.thomsonscenium.com/ProductDetail/0,6898,CNUS-LNUE-GDA5D9A759171471FAE0339DFEEACC71FA-CGA5D9A759171371FAE0339DFEEACC71FA,00.html?gLevel= 2&gID=0&gParent=0

http://www.thomsonscenium.com/ProductsSpecifications/0,6901,CNUS-LNUE-GDA5D9A759171471FAE0339DFEEACC71FA,00.html?gLevel= 2&gID=0&gParent=0

For those of you looking for a lot of info on the Dtivo, go here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7

jrbdmb

07-31-03, 07:38 AM

But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.

DennisThe great unwashed masses have *not* bought TiVo / DirecTiVo, it is still a niche product (compared to the number of TVs out there). This is due at least in part due to the monthly fees. And the new DVR fees at E* will ensure that the DVRs remain a niche product for E*.

jasonf

07-31-03, 07:47 AM

This is very tempting :):):) However, don't know for sure if it really has Tivo build in or not, and it doesn't do Satellite I'm sure.

http://www.computerhq.com/hardware/...o-id-30879.html

ETA 3rd/4th Quarter 2003
Preorder now to ensure position for first shipment delivey!

The PSX includes the PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer chips and will allow you to play PS2 games. But this isn't just a games system. The PSX also comes with a TV tuner, DVD recording capability and a 120 gigabyte hard disk. On top of this are USB 2.0 and memory stick support and a built-in Ethernet adapter.

This product was announced as part of a financial meeting for the entire Sony group in which big shot Ken Kutaragi revealed that the PS2 has reached worldwide cumulative shipments of 52.5 million. Following an introduction to the recently announced PSP (Play Station Portable) hardware, Kutaragi introduced and demoed the PSX.

According to Sony, the PSX represents the synergy between games and electronics. The built-in PS2 hardware will be used not just for games, but for the product's recording features.

Sony clarified the nature of the product following the presentation: "The PSX is a product not from SCE (Sony Computer Entertainment), but from Sony. It's a product that was born from the synthesis of the game and electronic fields, so while you can play games on it, it will not take the position of a game console. We're making it into a new DVD/HDD (hard disk drive) recording product that includes technology from SCE."

Features:
PS One / PS2 Support
Act as DVD/DVD-RW player, DVD Recorder, Digital Video Recorder (DVR)
120GB built-in Hard Drive
TV tuner with TIVO functions
Broadband Ethernet Connectivity
USB 2.0 and Memory Stick compatibility

Scott Greczkowski

07-31-03, 07:48 AM

Just to be safe, I asked Jim Defranco if this new fee would also apply to new receivers besides the 510 such as the 522 and 922.

This was his reply...Correct, Future DVR models would fall into the fee structure.

dtcarson

07-31-03, 07:56 AM

The great unwashed masses have *not* bought TiVo / DirecTiVo, it is still a niche product (compared to the number of TVs out there). This is due at least in part due to the monthly fees. And the new DVR fees at E* will ensure that the DVRs remain a niche product for E*.

I would tend to agree, in general. I think most of the people who have any PVR/Tivo unit, are going to be younger and/or more tech-oriented. Also, they are probably more used to paying ongoing monthly/periodic fees [internet, schooling, cell, pager, etc.] I think the 'average' consumer still has cable and relies on a VCR; this demographic is slowly segueing into DVD [I think I read that DVD rentals beat VHS rentals for the first time a month or so ago.]
Your average, non-tech-savvy consumer is going to think of a PVR as a 'fancy VCR,' and when they see the monthly fee, they'll think 'But with a VCR, I buy it and that's it.' Yes, a PVR, even the 501/508, is vastly different from and better than a VCR, but it's one of those things that is hard to convince someone of until they use it. Much like the name-based recording argument ; ).
Cable, including digital cable and their 'dvr's', is getting much more competitive with the features, channels, extras, and is constantly being advertised [at least in my market.] And again, the Joe Sixpack consumer tends to be 'used' to having cable, simply because the cable infrastructure is already there in most homes, and people prefer inertia to change. I'm tech-oriented and and try to keep up with everything, yet I was in my own home/s for 6 years before we got satellite. And still, there are some ongoing percieved negatives to satellite that have to be overcome before the satellite industry is really secure and a larger part of the market [for instance, the multiple receiver fee--I tried to get my inlaws to go for satellite, talking about the channels, reception, and PVR--but they have at least 3 tv's, and where they can just run a split off the cable, they would need the multiple recievers along with that additional fee. Also the local channels--I know there are probably legal reasons for it, since the cable companies had more clout with Congress than sat, but still, just saying to someone 'It's five bucks more if you want your local networks" really gets a raised eyebrow sometimes.]

I support D* and E*'s right to run a company and try to make money, and it does cost money to create new recievers, software, buy new channels, keep satellites up in the sky, etc., but like someone earlier said, this fee currently looks like a fee just because they can. If there is added benefit to it, or if there's a reason for it, then the customer should be informed of that. They certainly don't *have* to do that, but also, we don't *have* to stay with Dish and pay the fee--there comes a time when a company should still treat its customers fairly, while still making money. To me, at this point, it seems like a fee for fee's sake, 'just because.' I look at my current bill, and by the time you add the DHP fees [which I'm getting the 'warranty' with, and that was my decision], locals fees, extra receiver fee, not to mention about seven levels of taxes [which, granted, Dish can't do much about, directly], it starts adding up to real money and not becoming much of a deal. I'll start asking myself, What am I getting for my money, and can I get the same, or more, somewhere else, for the same or less? If the answer to that question is Yes, as it will be when this fee goes live, then *See ya*. Even though my PVR units will be grandfathered, this might be an opportune occasion to bail just on general principles, to say, Hey, Charlie, there are some things that aren't right--as we percieve them. You have the right to do what you want as a company, but also we have the right to do what we want as a customer.

DenR

07-31-03, 08:03 AM

Maybe one option to justify the fee would be to develop name based recording. If dish were to announce that they will initiate a development project for, or license name this feature, I think people wouldn't be so upset. Of course, I don't know how long it would take to develop such a feature.

scooper

07-31-03, 08:42 AM

Unless that "name based recording" is put into production between now and when they implement the fee - don't count on it.

dbronstein

07-31-03, 08:42 AM

Darkman

07-31-03, 08:49 AM

Just to be safe, I asked Jim Defranco if this new fee would also apply to new receivers besides the 510 such as the 522 and 922.

This was his reply...

921 you mean :)

But - ya... - I think so too...

Cuz i was watching some more of this chat yesturday,
and Jim said - that besides 510, the fee structure will apply to new, future receivers...

and 522 or 921 are not even out though - so...
(Iol - even though they seem like grandfathered to us also - cuz some of us have been waiting for them and talking about them for ages already) :)

Chris Freeland

07-31-03, 09:21 AM

Not that I want to pay a DVR fee, however if you are comparing a E*DVR with a VCR, even the E*DVR's can do things that a common VCR can not do and sure with the purchase of a VCR their is no service fee, however you do need to feed it blank tapes to record on and have to spend money on those tapes, so maby a $4.98 DVR fee is not so bad.

Four things E* needs to do to make this DVR Fee a more acceptable deal:
1. Make this $4.98 or $9.99 fee apply per account and not per receiver, if E* is going to copy D* on their DVR fee structure they need to copy this aspect too. This is the dumbest part of the E* DVR fee structure.
2. Lower hardware prices to current subs to upgrade, with this fee the new DVR510 should be sold to current subs for no more then $99 and an additional one-year commitment. The soon coming DVR522 should be no more then the current $199 price of the DVR508 for current subs who want to upgrade and are willing to do the one-year commitment. Perhaps better deals for current subs willing to do a 2-year commitment.
3. Upgrade software to be more comparable with TIVO features, including name base programing if this does not violate copyright laws.
4. Offer a Life-time DVR sub option for perhaps $99 or perhaps Free with a one or two year commitment to AEP

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 09:27 AM

Well when a company screws me they never get another dime of my money. Sprint, TCI, and if this isnt reversed now Dish.

Wether or not I go with stand alone PVRs or more than likely Direct I will drop E service permanetely.

I have been a sub for about 7 years.

E leading the way to gouge the customer!

Jacob S

07-31-03, 09:30 AM

I think most on the board would not mind paying the $4.99 fee if there was some justification for this fee by adding such features as name-based recording and making the software AND HARDWARE bug free.

The Pioneer and PSX is exactly what I have been waiting for, backup to DVD-RW from the hard drive at fast speeds to save hard drive space. This is GREAT!!! This is the wave of the future for PTV/PVR/DVR in that people can store their videos to play on other dvd players and save hard drive space all in one and you can reuse those DVD-RW's as well. You can leave it in the unit for the sole purpose of doing that and it would record quite a bit on it too. They could even make a DVD changer in which would hold 3+ DVD's or have them double sided so you could keep them in there to use to save hard drive space or to keep. One could use the DVD-RW's to record to for playback and the hard drive for the pause buffer. You could even play your DVD's in the unit, so it would solve many problems, the solution in one machine.

I suppose one could do this now by getting a DVD burner and a PVR software on a computer for much cheaper than what that unit by Panasonic would cost. If PSX would be cheaper and allow you to play Playstation games then that would be a plus for that unit.

This may be what I do, get a DVD burner and PVR through the computer, would probably get enough from all the Dish PVR hardware I have now to buy what I need for this new setup or at least a lot of it. I am surprised that more would not take this choice.

Frapp

07-31-03, 09:47 AM

I believe that sometime ago when I was an active dealer, Charlie remarked on a chat that their would eventually be a charge for DVR,s. recording service.

I think Dish has maybe delivered the message the wrong format, but it would appear that they are offering you a way for your DVR service to remain free of charge ( or at a reduced rate ) if you wish, so it sounds somewhat reasonable to me.

The BIG problem here is that everyone, especially internet type buyers, want everything free, free, free and that is slowly coming to an end these days :shrug:

psycaz

07-31-03, 10:02 AM

Scott,
Any word if the existing pvr's need to be activiated before the deadline to be exempt, or will the models numbers always be exempt, regardless when activated.

Also, anyone think this maybe a way to help clear inventory of the 501/508's they have to make room for the 510?????????

I currently have the AEP, but will downgrade to the AT150. So much for that 522 I wanted...
DirectTV looks better and better to me...

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 10:06 AM

Yep I will defect to D tivo too do they offer a 522 like 2 output receiver PVR box?

E should look at this. By penalizing people that upgrade, by adding the PVR fee, they are more likely creating churn for folks to go to a service thats PVR fee free.

You NEVER want to encourage custoimers to leave.........

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 10:11 AM

When the next chuck chat? What do you say we ALL clog the phone lines with How do I set up CC autopay then zing charlie and company with our REAL feelings?

It might get his attention, I doubt he will be made aware of the furor this has caused.

Who knows this chat might be the FIRST to see time delay used to zap some callers.

I am game how about the rest of you? Anyone successful gets a prize?

TNGTony

07-31-03, 10:20 AM

The BIG problem here is that everyone, especially internet type buyers, want everything free, free, free and that is slowly coming to an end these days :shrug:

There is a difference in complaining about being charged for something and complaining about being charged for something ONLY because the company can get away with it.

This is what really pisses me off about this. I've remaind silent on the subject until now because I was trying to see if there was any justification for the charge. There is none. The only reason, like ATM usage fees, is "because we can." Any reduction in up front cost for the receiver is subterfuge.

The bean counters at Dish are slobbering all over themselves about this fee and probably telling anyone who will listen just how much money they are going to clear by having this fee. what they probably aren't counting is how this will affect churn. Not just by people like me and Bob Haller who have been subscribers for 7 years or more, but by customers who buy receivers today.

The one thing that Dish has had over the competing DVR market is that the price of the funcionality has been free. And as has been discussed before, once you have used a DVR, you will never go back. It is NOT a fancy VCR. If the is no DVR fee on one service and EVERYONE else is charging for their service, you will keep more customers from defecting. You will attract customers from your competition! It's called a LOSS LEADER!

Well...They seem to have forgotten this little tid-bit of information at business school.

They have managed to make sure that when I move or need a new system I will look long and hard at the competition...including cable which now has a DVR option. Up until this information broke, I would not have thought of doing this. So that's one $120 a month customer down the tubes over a fee that, if I kept the level of service, would not have affected me. Any time a company has a "because we can" service fee, that company loses all my loyalty.

See ya
Tony

Scott Greczkowski

07-31-03, 10:30 AM

Well said Tony!

I consider DVR's to be like gallon of Milk, sooner or later it will expire.

The Hard Drive in a DVR is a product that will die due to wear and tear after awhile, and at that time what choices do you have? If you buy a new DVR chances are you will be paying a monthly DVR fee.

You can get the Dish Equipment protection policy, but I would not be surprised if a consumable item like a Hard Drive will be covered in the future.

To make matters worse you can't fix your own Dish PVR, you can't just pop the hood and pop in a new Hard drive.

I feel we will all be paying DVR fees in the future no matter if we like it or not. :(

Jacob S

07-31-03, 10:34 AM

I think this is where most of the posts on this site is going now. This thread is the site, lol. Does the software limit how many pages and posts you can make on a topic?

Neil Derryberry

07-31-03, 10:46 AM

no.... post away.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 10:53 AM

If they are going to charge $4.99 a month and full price for the receiver then perhaps they should include the extended warranty on those receivers they are going to charge the $4.99 for having some justification in their charge. We should have a reason why they could charge nothing before and now they cant and where the money is going to.

I also think that they should give a special deal to make up for the fee. That way you save enough on the hardware to make up for the fee each month and have more for the next DVR that comes out in the future.

To charge $4.99 PER DVR, full price for the receiver, not allow an upgrade of the hard drive, on a buggy receiver with buggy software is just outlandish. Has Dish now become the most expensive DVR that makes the lease sense to purchase?

RyMcQ

07-31-03, 10:55 AM

But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.

Maybe a more accurate statement (at least with me) is: "I don't know anyone who has gotten rid of their TiVo because of the fees." It seems like the only people who complain about the fees are people who have never owned (i.e., used in their home for more than a few days) a TiVo. Personally, I would gladly pay $10 a month for my DirecTiVo service.

The ironic thing to me is that people will spend $80/month on programming, and then squander it with a crappy but free DVR. I had to endure the Dish 501 for a month at my in-laws while we were between houses, and I found it intolerable after having used DirecTiVo for 2 years.

DarrellP

07-31-03, 11:01 AM

I just sent an email to ceo, feedback & tech at echostar to let them know I will drop my account with them if they institute this fee. I have wanted the 921 since it was first announced but now they can take it and stick it where the sun don't shine.

So let's see, they will lose $999 on the sale of the machine plus my $41/month + the HD Package for the rest of my life vs them getting an extra $10/month. Smart move Dish.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 11:01 AM

Its not just about the fees itself, its about charging for an inferior service that does not offer the functionality that the Tivo does, and that more was spent on the hardware so that the monthly DVR fee would not have to be paid. Its kind of like buying the lifetime PVR/DVR functionality with the purchase of the receiver.

I would not be surprised to see on channel 100 in the future the option to purchase the DVR feature just as you do programming.

Mike D-CO5

07-31-03, 11:17 AM

Well I guess in the end it will be up to the individual to decide if his bill will be lower by subscribing to AEP vs any other package with the dvr fees attached and the extra receiver fees attached. It will probably be cheaper to just go ahead and sub to AEP , which is what Dish is trying to do in the first place.

They want their average customer monthly sub price to go up from say $59 a month to around $75 a month. I sub to AEP with Locals for aound $79 a month and I think it is the best value for the money. Most people will probably do this in the end if they stay with Dish. Wouldn't you rather have more programming for your money vs more fees for the same service on all your receivers?

I hope that Dish will give more tivo like features with the fee to justify the fee so it will be more palatable to the public. Otherwise the bad will that is being created by this excessive fee on EACH receiver is not going to create market share for Dish now or in the future. No one likes a greedy sat provider.

Remember how everyone thought the merger would create higher prices for all sat customers. The same fears about Rupert buying Directv are being brought up now. It looks like Charlie was going to increase the prices with or without the merger. With the economy in shambles and more than 2 million jobs lost in the last 3 years does Charlie really think that this is the right time for and increase? He already went up on the cost of the programming this year and now less than 5 months later he has created an additional fee that didn't exist before. And Charlie is fighting satellite taxes in other states so he can create a real DVR TAX ON EACH RECEIVER ON THE SAME ACCOUNT.

Charlie I am afraid that this time you have really over estimated the ability for the customers to pay out the ass at a time when people are lucky to have a job at all. The first thing that will go in a person's budget when times are bad is luxuries. Additional dvrs on the same account with a FEE are luxuries that will be dropped to save money.

This is really helping Directv with new customer addons . Just think better receivers with Tivo and ONE FEE for the whole house no matter how many in the house. I think that Dish is going to price themselves right out of the market .

Dish the alternative to Cable? Sounds more and more like Cable with fees and increases.

Tony S

07-31-03, 11:21 AM

I have been a Dish subscriber almost since the beginning (1996 or 1997). Until now, I have been relatively content, but this news has gotten me VERY upset.

I am in the process of buying a new plasma TV and have been looking forward to getting the new 921 to go along with it. As many others have said, having no monthly fees was a big plus. Now that Dish no longer has this advantage, I will definitely be looking elsewhere (DTV or maybe even cable).

I have had a 501 receiver for quite a while now, and even though I really like it a lot, there is NO WAY that I would pay a monthly fee for the privilege of being able to use it. Personally, I would rather buy a hard disk based recorder/DVD burner (or use my computer) than have to pay a monthly fee to use something that I already own.

I think that Dish has made a really stupid decision. They will be driving away people like me who were their best customers, and who also were the ones who would recommend Dish to friends. I can no longer in good conscience recommend Dish to anyone! :down: :mad:

Big Bob

07-31-03, 11:39 AM

Do I have this right?

the 510 is the same as a 508 only with a larger hard drive?

the list price for a 510 is the same (or very close to) that of the 508?

If I plan on using this unit for 3 years (ha, reality in my house is more like 8-10),
I will have to pay $10 a month because I have AT50. Over 3 years that will be $360.

There is nothing different between the two units except the hard drive, so in reality, E* just increased the price of a 508 by $360!

A $360 price increase. I just don't get it.

angiodan

07-31-03, 11:46 AM

Man, 300 posts and 9500 views in 48 hours! This has got to be the hottest topic to hit DBS since its inception.

Scott Greczkowski

07-31-03, 11:49 AM

Do I have this right?

the 510 is the same as a 508 only with a larger hard drive?

the list price for a 510 is the same (or very close to) that of the 508?

Yes this is correct.

The price also seems high too, infact as I look around a 120 MB hard drive is actually cheeper then a 80 gig drive!

So where did they actually subsidize this receiver? It should cost only $99 or less for it. Hell you can get DirecTivos for that price or lower!

dinkster

07-31-03, 11:49 AM

I have been checking out Direct TV, and I have not found much information on the forthcoming HD-Tivo.

I have had a serious look at the programming packages, and they are generally comparable with Total Choice Platinum around $11/month higher than AEP (to which I currently subscribe).

At this juncture, I haven't had the opportunity to watch D*, but I will to see if there is any noticeable difference in PQ between the 2 on SD and HD channels.

I will also assume that the HD programming packages from each will cost about the same, although at the moment, D* has more HD programming available that I am interested in.

Where I have been very surprised is with the Cost To Install the hardware.

I can only use the Tivo2 and 721 as comparison references at this point, but my CTI for D* is ~$100 and my CTI for E* is ~$500. Granted, the HD is twice as large on the E*, but the HD can be upgraded for a reasonably small cost. And this does not include any costs associated with SuperDish!

PVR fees are waived with the top tier programming package for each.

I will also assume that the HD-Tivo product will have a superior user interface (name based recording) and that the 921 will have the same troubled gestation period after release that the 721 experienced.

From where I sit, D* is starting to look like a very attractive option.

Dish, if you're listening, you had a loyal customer. But I'm really looking around and I'm afraid that you're not looking too good at the moment.

What surprises me the most about this Fee, is just how many very loyal Dish top-tier subscribers, myself included, are now seriously questioning their commitment to Dish on the basis of a non-public announcement.

In a sense, I should thank Charlie/Jim for providing much needed motivation to this subscriber to give a serious look at the competition.

johnsbin

07-31-03, 11:57 AM

Here are some thoughts I am now entertaining on this whole thread:

1) PVRs/DVRs are a niche market item for Dish. This means there are probably not enough of them out the door to be profitable to Dish just in initial purchase.

2) These niche devices have MOVING PARTS (hd and fan) that fail and require much more service from Dish. this means Dish is losing money having to service these devices. more often.

3) These niche devices have an OS and a complex set of functions requiring many more hours of programming by different programmers. Dish is spending more money paying for that.

4) # 2 and 3 above also require more customer support to help with these failing, complicated, niche devices and that support must be a lot smarter. Dish is paying for that too.

Summary: The highest profits are achieved by moving $10.00 hard-coded receivers with no moving parts and limited functionality. They rarely fail and require simple customer support personnel.

the lowest profits and even operating losses are realized supporting a minority population of complex, soft-coded devices that fail regularly, require OS updates and UI programming, and which require intelligent customer support personnel.

Result: The DVR fee PER MACHINE is to pay for the loss realized in supplying and supporting these niche devices.

Big Bob

07-31-03, 12:02 PM

Here are some thoughts I am now entertaining on this whole thread:

Summary: The highest profits are achieved by moving $10.00 hard-coded receivers with no moving parts and limited functionality. They rarely fail and require simple customer support personnel.

the lowest profits and even operating losses are realized supporting a minority population of complex, soft-coded devices that fail regularly, require OS updates and UI programming, and which require intelligent customer support personnel.

Result: The DVR fee PER MACHINE is to pay for the loss realized in supplying and supporting these niche devices.

Then lower the initial price and make the total cost of ownership comparable to the competition.

By not lowering the sticker price, E* has just announced the largest price increase that they have ever had.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 12:09 PM

YES BUT PVR subs tend to e the BEST subs they ever get. Sticky they dont churn like the ones with nothing invested.

bonscott87

07-31-03, 12:13 PM

Wow, crazy news. I've been a DirecTV sub for over 7 years so I just wanted to say that I've never had Dish service.

I think one thing too many people are overlooking here is this:
I think many loyal Dish customers would be more then willing to pay a monthly fee for DVR service. The problem currently is two things:
1) DVR fee is PER BOX vs. DirecTv it's PER ACCOUNT (have as many as you want for the same $4.99)
2) Dish's DVR offerings are nowhere close to the Tivo offerings for now what will be a higher price. Less then Tivo was fine for being free, but less then Tivo is not fine for costing more.

I hope for Dish's sake they are upgrading their software to have more features that close the gap between it and Tivo. Otherwise come on over and join the DirecTivo party. Had one for over 2 years, plopped in a 120 gig hard drive myself (took all of 5 minutes) and I have 149 hours of recording.

HD-Tivo news. There isn't much except rumors you'll find on the Tivocommunity. As per typical DirecTv I'm sure there won't be many hard details until the things are manufactured already and read to go out the door. So I wouldn't expect many details until October or Novemerber at the earliest.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 12:39 PM

Well I could see a big increase with customers trying to come up with a way to put a bigger hard drive in their 501, 508, and 721's. I thought Dish would want to sell the consumer another receiver in the future to get more sales. Is that the reason why they tried to make it to where you could not swap out your hard drive? Maybe they want anyone in the future that is going to upgrade to buy the DVR with a bigger hard drive to make more money off of those wanting the latest and greatest DVR in the future with dual tuners including two tv outs and so forth.

I would find it cheaper, easier, and better to use the computer as a PVR than trying to swap hard drives in a 508 if they choose to charge for a bigger hard drive in the 510 with a monthly fee.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 01:10 PM

Me and probably about everyone else cannot see paying $4.99 PER RECEIVER for this service in which is biggest load of bull I HAVE EVER HEARD as a charge from satellite. ITS THE STUPIDIST IDEA EVER COME UP WITH BY ANY SATELLITE PROVIDER EVER!!! That is the worst thing Dish could ever do. Its obvious Dish does not want subscribers to have multiple DVR receivers (and if they subsidize they do not want to subsidize several of these per account) but want subscribers to take the dual tuner DVR instead (522).

The 522 is the only receiver that I could see feasible to have in this type of situation and I think that is what Dish wants people to do is to get this receiver and share the hard drive among other users in the house. You save enough on the additional outlet to make up for the $4.99 fee and maybe a little on the hardware.

Dish does not want you to save money but wants to keep the money you save and does not want you to subscribe to Top50 because they think if you can afford a higher end receiver you can afford to get a higher package or pay more for your DVR service that your going to pay more one way or another in every way they can think of.

Why would they not implement an additional outlet fee for two tuner receivers if they try to sucker $4.99 out of the new DVR receivers? Scott, can you email them and ask if they plan on charging the additional outlet fee on top of their $4.99 DVR fee on the 522?

scooper

07-31-03, 01:22 PM

The ONLY way that the $4.99 fee for the 522 becomes palatable is if there is NOT a 2nd tuner fee as well. Then it will become a wash, and I can probably be talked into it (and more importantly, I could talk the wife into it). Doing both - I'm sorry - no Dish PVR for me - I'll keep recording the shows on my PC's and MAYBE upgrade my 2700 to a 301 (no timers to timers would be a big plus). Or I might be able to swing a 508 next month.

Frapp

07-31-03, 01:37 PM

Man, 300 posts and 9500 views in 48 hours! This has got to be the hottest topic to hit DBS since its inception.

That`s because once you give the product/item away, it is hard to ever charge for it, even if you make that statement early on as Ergen did :shrug:

I have seen where someone posted the old "Lost Leader" theory in business related to this topic. The problem is it`s just that , a theory, customers will let you loose on an item until you go out of business and then move on to the next store :lol:

I think a high percentage of subs will continue to use the service and pay the fee, if applicable.

So let`s see, Echostar has ( Estimate ) 3 million subs using DVR,s for instance and they start charging the fee`s. About 10% disconnect, if that many, Dish still makes a killing :D

Now I know why Echostar has been so aggressive to convert as many subs as possible to DVR`s. Fee`s baby ...... Fee`s ;)

DarrellP

07-31-03, 01:45 PM

YES BUT PVR subs tend to e the BEST subs they ever get. Sticky they don't churn like the ones with nothing invested.
That well may be the case, Bob, but I am one PVR owner who is jumping ship even though my unit will not be charged a fee. This is an outright despicable act on Dish's part.

To wait 1 1/2 to 2 years for vapor hardware (921) only to be told it will have a "DVR" fee attached to it is nonsense. I will be seriously looking at D* for my HD, though I know theire PQ is not as good. :mad:

BTW, FWIW, I've been with Dish since 1997 and have put up with their crappy software updates, failed equipment and piss poor compression but I will NOT stand for this bogus fee.

TNGTony

07-31-03, 01:46 PM

Frapp,

The thing is that a loss leader has people buy things at your store they normally wouldn't. In the case of Dish, many subscribers chose them because of the free PVR. PVR customers are the LEAST likely to churn on you. Yes, dish will end up making more money. But they will lose a valuable marketing tool to attract new customers and keep existing ones. This is the part that "bean counters" do not EVER seem to look at. They aren't hard numbers so it's very hard to see a tangible result.

Dish has lost its advantage over the competition with this "because we can" fee.

See ya
Tony

MikeW

07-31-03, 01:53 PM

Now I know why Echostar has been so aggressive to convert as many subs as possible to DVR`s. Fee`s baby ...... Fee`s ;)

I understand being upset about Dish doing this "because they can", however, current subs who do not upgrade hardware aren't affected by this decision. Fee's will not be incurred by anybody with today's equipment going forward. I've just purchased another 508 (it'll be my second) and will stay with this equipment as long as it lasts. I purchased my non-HD big screen in 2000 and don't see any need to change my setup until it gives up the ghost.

Randy_B

07-31-03, 02:12 PM

Scott in your exchanges with E* brass, ask them their intentions for replacing 50x and 721s under extended warranties? I guess especially the 50x (what will they replace a 721 with if it is gone?). If it breaks and they only have 510s on hand do they really think they can make that exchange and force a DVR fee on the user. If so, I believe we can surely expect to see that one in court! I know I would beat a beeline to my state Attorney General!

harsh

07-31-03, 02:15 PM

Dish has lost its advantage over the competition with this "because we can" fee.

The other guys are charging a fee. The difference being that the hardware on the other side is more capable (two tuners, comprehensive software).

BEWARE!

On the standalone side of things, TiVo has been participating in some serious price hiking. They started out at $9.95 and are now $12.95 and I have reason to believe that they are contemplating going to $13.95 in the near future. At that rate, you might well imagine that DirecTV might soon contemplate a fee increase, if for no other reason than to assure their customers that they're getting the full TiVo feature set (including being charged to death).

I'd be looking for DirecTiVo to be bumped up to $9.95 per month and maybe even a charge for each unit. As we all understand, the real functionality comes from the hardware and software, not expensive enhancements to the guide information. Any charge should be considered either an attempt to cover discounted hardware pricing or, more likely, a stupid tax.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 02:24 PM

Darrell I am jumping ship as well just as soon as D has a 2 receiver box like a 522 is out.

At this point no matter what happens I am gone.....

I guess E management has now been made painfully aware of the general hatred for their crappy software and poor realiblity of receivers. I have been thru 3 721s and at least 5 508s in just 2 years or thereabouts. Thats insane. Thats NO QC at all.

I am very sad, my opinion of E went from world leader to trash. They have totally lost their way. The 508 to 510 is ONLY a matter of a larger cheaper hard drive.

We were locked out of HD upgrades because of the DPs problems, Those tech troubles werent HD driven. They were poor QC from day one.

Sadly that poor QC is apparent in the 508s and 721s.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 02:27 PM

E is creating a large number of highly motivated once customers who will trash them over this for the rest of their lives.

Wonder how many sales they will loose over this>?

Darkman

07-31-03, 02:34 PM

They have managed to make sure that when I move or need a new system I will look long and hard at the competition...including cable which now has a DVR option. Up until this information broke, I would not have thought of doing this. So that's one $120 a month customer down the tubes over a fee that, if I kept the level of service, would not have affected me. Any time a company has a "because we can" service fee, that company loses all my loyalty.

See ya
Tony

But your Channel List Tony - LOL :(

Who's gonna maintain it :confused:
:eek2:

You can't leave Dish! :sure:

Mike D-CO5

07-31-03, 02:49 PM

Well lets see Dish starts with Dvr fees for future receivers, and hopefully they will have tivo like features( namebased recording, season passes, etc) to justify the fee. What,s next ? Charlie will charge anyone with a 501 /508, or 721 one time software upgrade price of say $99.00 to upgrade your receivers to the same namebased software that the newer receivers would have and bingo your new receiver is no longer grandfathered. You now have a 509 or 502 or 731 or what ever and you are now eligible for dvr fees monthly like the newer customers.

Slick , Charlie ! you have been watching what Tivo is doing to their customers ; offer newer better software upgrades that people want and sell it at a premium( like Tivo media. ) What's next; charge everyone for software upgrades or your receiver stays at a lower functionality forever.

Sorry Charlie, you are not Tivo and I am not biting on this one.

shortiemcgee

07-31-03, 03:02 PM

My bet is that Dish will not have name based recording. For whatever reason, they feel that name based recording isn't a priority.
After hearing the news I'm tempted to switch. I dropped Directv for Dish about a year ago. I can't imagine I will go back (unless News Corp makes some changes) so I may take the cable company up on some of their aggressive promotions.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 03:28 PM

More than 10% WOULD disconnect if they had a fee imposed on them, and why would someone sell a pvr receiver in which they had a huge selling point on the pvr features being free. Why would they be able to have the DVR features free before and not now? To say that everyone wants something for free is not the complete reason as a whole why people are upset in this case. People want what they pay for in this case comparable to the competition. Lets see here, they charged more for the 501, 508, and 721 because they said that it covered the cost of the hardware so that no DVR charged would have to be applied. Now what is their reason for charging full price and charging a fee?

Mike D-CO5

07-31-03, 03:53 PM

I would think that satellite platform has matured now and new customers are going to be hard to come by untill everything is in hdtv. So how do you get more revenue ? Boom!! dvr fees, and don't be suprised if Charlie does follow Tivo in charging for software upgrades. He already has followed and surpassed Directv with Dvr fees on every receiver so it's not much of a stretch for him to start charging for more and more newer fees. He has to subzidise that new hdtv package with the tv receiver and superdish for all under $1500.00.

I guess Charlie thinks if you can't beat them by charging no fees of pvrs then join them and the rest of the industry and make money on those monthly fees. It 's kind of funny though . Dish made a lot of market share by offering those no fee pvrs and even had more dvr customers then even Tivo. When he could continue this trend he is going to destroy the future of dvrs being accepted by the mass public. That is one reason why the public has not embraced dvrs like Tivo and it has remained a niche product: MONTHLY FEES !!

I said it before and I really think he could get most of his subscriber base to sub to AEP by offering no dvr fee and no additional receiver fees . This would give him a huge leg up on his competition: Cable tv and Directv. This would certainly be worth more in the long run for his bottom line if more people subed to AEP as opposed to blackmailing everyone with extra fees .

And when you think of it , if you don't want people to have more than one dvr on their account, then why is it Dish has only like 1 basic receiver in production that is not a dvr? I mean the cost to repair and replace these dvrs I'm sure is great compared to the basic receivers. But why are you practically pushing nothing but dvrs then?

Charlie there is still time to reconsider the extra fee on EVER RECEIVER on the same account. Change that one thing and you might salvage a little bit of what is left of customer good will.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 04:01 PM

Charging this DVR fee on EVERY DVR RECEIVER IS CRAZY NUTS, its the worst decision yet. I think they view this fee like the additional outlet fee in that they can get an extra fee on every receiver.

Mike D-C05 I agree. This may be something they could very well try. If they do in fact try to charge extra for features such as name based recording, etc. on the 501, 508, 721 to make those receivers have the same software as the 510, 522, 921 then what about those that do not want those extra features on the 510, 522, 921? Would they have to pay anyways even though those that have the 501, 508, 721 doesn't? Those with the new DVR receivers will have paid full price for them (unless they got some special promo or something).

I am also awaiting to see what Rainbow has up their sleeves when come out with their service. I wonder if they will have special first customer promotions to get business ramped up. Perhaps they would see what is going on and take advantage of it getting some customers fomr Dish in the process.

rbonzer

07-31-03, 04:03 PM

I know I can't miss what I haven't had, but I'm pretty happy with my 501. I don't need any more software upgrades. Its been very stable for me, and I can even live with the glitches that I have seen. Leave the software alone! Keep it free!

On the other hand, why don't the sell the software and hardware seperately? I could stick with the current software, for free, or 'upgrade' to the name based recording version for $100.

And on another hand, isn't cable going to a new digital standard, so that third parties (tv manufacturers/dvr makers) could make digital recievers? Couldn't we just wait, and have stand-alone hardware, that recieves the digital signals?

Its really starting to bug me that when my 501 goes bad, I'm going to have to worry whether I'll have to start paying DVR fees. And that I can't service my own machine.

What exactly will the fee go towards for the 510? Its the same as the 501/508. the software is done. What developement costs are left for that device?

DTV

07-31-03, 04:04 PM

I'd be looking for DirecTiVo to be bumped up to $9.95 per month and maybe even a charge for each unit. As we all understand, the real functionality comes from the hardware and software, not expensive enhancements to the guide information. Any charge should be considered either an attempt to cover discounted hardware pricing or, more likely, a stupid tax.

And you would be wrong. DirecTV has never charged a "per unit fee" on the DirecTivo's. It is very doubtful they ever would so spread your FUD somewhere else. DirecTV already charged 9.95 for the DVR fee but dropped it to 4.95 when they brought the support in-house. Unlike Dish DirecTV is pushing the Directivo hard. Unlike the idiots at Dish, DirecTV realizes the PVR subscriber spends more money and is less likely to churn.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 04:10 PM

I also doubt they would charge that fee per receiver as well, but who would have thought Dish would be charging DVR fees and charging that per receiver?

Can you imagine Dish trying to replace the 501 and 508's that go bad with 510's and trying to shove that extra monthly fee down the customer's throats? The CSR would say "well you are getting a newer receiver wth more storage'' and they would just use the 501 and 508's that they get back to put bigger hard drives in them and call them a 510 instead of just simply repairing those and sending them back out as a 501 or 508. Just as someone said, the bigger hard drives are cheaper than the smaller ones in some if not all cases aint they?

Dish could at least give the customers an option for a future very enhanced software upgrade for name based recording among other features for either a monthly or lifetime fee.

The thing I would be worried about is if they would try to take away some of the features that we have now on the 501/508, 721 and charge for them such as fast forward and rewind fees, frame advance, enhanced games, etc. that they have now and only allow you to have them again if you go to the next level up on software. This is something else I am concerned about. Dish may have promised free PVR but he did not promise all of those additional features along with it that we have today. That would also be sneaky but I dont really want to give Dish any ideas.

dennispe

07-31-03, 04:25 PM

"I also doubt they would charge that fee per receiver as well, but who would have thought Dish would be charging DVR fees and charging that per receiver?"

They used to charge 9.99/month for the 501 when I signed up years ago. I cancelled after the three free months of PVR service was up.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 04:40 PM

Idiot decisions like this give the industry a bad name and encourage hacking. Some friends contacted me today about DBS, I recommended D TIVO. At least I know it works dependably..........

spanishannouncetable

07-31-03, 04:45 PM

They used to charge 9.99/month for the 501 when I signed up years ago. I cancelled after the three free months of PVR service was up.

Dish Network has never charged for using the 501. You are thinking of the Dishplayer, which still has fees attached to it.

DarrellP

07-31-03, 04:52 PM

TIVO may be increasing fees, but they have machines that actually work and they have guides that adjust to the program. If Dish did this, I may not complain AS much. They need to come up with a different price scheme, this totally sucks.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 05:18 PM

Yes, I do think hacking of the hard drives will become more common if not go further than this as a result, although I think a simpler solution is to use the PC to do this than doing that. All one has to do is get a DVD burner and burn all that you stored real fast and upgrade your hard drive as well. You can have an external DVD burner and external hard drive if you dont want to open the PC up without a monthly fee for the price of one of these DVR receivers and be done with it. If the DVD burner and hard drive costs more than what a Dish DVR costs then one would save enough in the long run not paying an additional outlet fee and the DVR cost to make up for that and use it for OTA, cable, or any receiver and is upgradable.

Mike D-CO5

07-31-03, 05:55 PM

I would think that if customers did not want to upgrade to the name based recording features for the $99 price, kind of like Tivo did recently with the home media option, they could just not take the upgrade and stay like they are with their receiver software. Kind of like Tivo lite features vs the full Tivo features. Tivo started offering Tivo lite which is basically like Dish's software today. Basic pvr functions but no season passes or name based recording. This option is free or at a reduced price vs the full price you pay for the full Tivo functions monthly. They did this with the hopes that customers would get a taste of the dvr and want more features and would be willing to pay for it.

This would be a way for Dish to legitimately charge a fee for the advanced features and make people feel they are getting something for the fee. Of course this is all just speculation that will give Dish ideas for the future on ways to charge us something else.

HTguy

07-31-03, 06:54 PM

Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?

The other day in a chat directed to retailers E* announced a new promotion for new customers and a change in their PVR...er, DVR policy.

What it amounts to is a move in the DirecTivo marketing direction of charging less for the hardware and collecting a fee-for-service based on programming just like DirecTV.

As a matter of fact, for new subs on this promo all the hardware and all the normal installation will be free. This could be 1 or 2 301s (like before) or a 510 or a 510 & a 301 or even 3 301s with a 2-yr agreement.

This is actually a great promotion and a great deal for new customers.

So what's the problem? As is too often the case, E* opened it's big mouth too soon. The promo doesn't even begin until 8/24. They should have waited until after the customer chat in which they could have explained the whole DVR policy to existing customers. (Just like they previewed the PVR...oops...DVR921 so long before it could be ready, just like they previewed and released the 721 before it was stable, just like they previewed the 322, the 522, SuperDish, etc., ad nauseum...you get the idea.)

The word leaked out as it always does and all of us are in an uproar. Now let's see what all the panicking is about: they're going to keep charging more for DVRs and charge a monthly $10.00 to boot. Right? Wrong!

First of all, the cost to new customers for the hardware is zero. That's what this is all about. A way to expand the subscriber base. (Actually, a new sub in Sept. gets a free DVR + a free 301 if they want it + $149.97 in T100VP credits, too.)

So what about all of us existing subs? Well, most of us on this board already have PVRs, to use the quaint term, for which we will never pay fees. That goes for several 100K, if not over 1M, other E* subs, too. And there are plenty of 508s and 721s still available for those that want them. Almost any existing cust can get a 508 on a low cost UPG Promo.

Speaking of which, the PVR UPG Promo as it is ends 8/31, after which, according to JD, "There will be changes."

The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.

But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.

And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too. And, BTW, they won't have a/o fees for the 2nd tuner like some people seem to think.

Incidentally, other than DarrellP how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99? Not many. Most PVR subs get at least T100 + locals + at least one premium, usually HBO. The $9.99 isn't much of a factor and it's obviously designed to move potential T50 subs up & keep the rest from downgrading. Churning to D* won't help here since they don't have a $24.99 package.

Now, I must agree that the per box vs. per acct. policy kind of sucks but it's in keeping with the reduced up-front cost marketing plan. The number of multiple PVR subs is so negligible as to be insignificant to E* today & that will keep it so. It certainly won't affect me or most of us here, either.

OK, before I get flamed for speculating about lower hardware costs & UPGs to existing subs just remember that even if all of us packed up & left E*for good it's not as stupid a move for them as some are thinking. For every one on this board that churns (and I don't really think there will be many once all the pricing changes come out) there will be hundreds of new subscribers.

Some have speculated that E* needs more $s coming in due to the increased support necessary compared to basic boxes. There could be something to this as more & more of their custs get DVRs. The fact is that their whole CS Dept & its "Tech Support" is pretty clueless about the DVRs. They're still telling people to pull the card when there's a problem & RA the box when that doesn't fix it. So they are rotating a lot (and I mean a lot) of units thru El Paso that just needed a Power Reset.

So I say, "Settle down, folks."

You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.

ocnier

07-31-03, 07:24 PM

Oh yes they are,... hell charlie missed several golden opportunities post merger breakdown simply because he was either too cheap and/or too greedy.

In fact the only ace he truly had was that he WAS perceived as pro consumer.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 07:28 PM

HT, what you say is all well and good but misses the mark. First off few NEW subs will want to pay a monthly PVR fee. I have friends with dishplayers who NEVER activated the service. Ultimate tv and its $10 charge died as well. What makes anyone think people will happily pay the $ PER BOX?

Now if E DID A BETTER JOB DESIGNING, BUILDING, AND TESTING their PVRs we wouldnt be seeing nearly as high support costs. Heck In just over a year I have churned thru 4 or 5 508s and three 721s. Thats a abysmal record. All traceable to a bad design and implementation. E shoiuld do a better job to begin with and save money in tech costs.

Im addition their receivers are endlessely delayed. Then released with buggy software. They cant blame microsoft for the 508 and 721 bugs. In PVRs they are a second rate operation.

This slap in the face and pickpocket mentality is forcing me to D.

Besides new subs will question the add on charges for a VCR like device, that will likely scare some away altogether from being any sort of a sub.

Your there will be a upgrade doesnt matter to me. Defranco hasnt mentioned one, I refuse to pay extra fdor what is a free service for a second rate device.

What this mess did is advertise what a poor PVR device E supplies.

I support getting PVRs in the hands of every new sub. But discount the cost to long term subs and offer a lifetime PVR offer or watch many of us leave and trash E to perspective subs forever.

Honestly non PVR receivers shoiuld be discontinued and all should get PVR. But they should be first class boxes, not the second rate ones offered today.

dinkster

07-31-03, 07:32 PM

HTguy, a highly informative post indeed. Your news is a ray of hope to the disaffected here.

If I understand your post correctly (I've read it four times to make sure), a new 921 and hopefully SuperDish with installation will be heavily discounted from the suggested retail of $999+ in return for the monthly fee that is programming tier based?

As E* has released this whirlwind of discontent amongst the faithful, it might be prudent for E* to release some tangible details about this program, even at the expense of spoiling a 'Charlie Chat'.

platinum

07-31-03, 07:34 PM

Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?...

...So I say, "Settle down, folks."

You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.

Were you in a E* cheerleader outfit waving those pom-pom's when you wrote this... :icon_lol:

rbonzer

07-31-03, 07:37 PM

Can't they just discount the DVR and make them commit to a longer term? Wouldn't that work just as well?

I guess most Joe 6-pack people can't realize when they get $200 off if they commit for 2 years (but, by the way, there is a $10/mo charge) that they lose out. No big deal. It'll be interesting to know who the DVR people will be at dish. The dumb, and the rich (who would subscribe to AEP and don't care about a DVR instead of a real PVR).

And by the way, I do subscribe to AT50. And when the time comes, would get HD service. Probably not from dish now.

Soycrema

07-31-03, 07:41 PM

Charlie, Dishnetwork, if you're monitoring this threat I'mm telling you right now: CHARGE FOR DVR, PVR......whatever and YOU WILL LOOSE ME AS A CUSTOMER!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS!!!! I HAD PLANS TO BUY THE 921 BUT TO HELL WITH THAT, LOOKS LIKE DIRECT TV IS COMING MY WAY!! :mad:

dbronstein

07-31-03, 07:51 PM

rowdymon

07-31-03, 07:56 PM

This sort of makes me glad I got rid of my 501 and went with DTivo. If only DTV would get international channels, I could get rid of my 6000 and close my Dish account altogether.

Bob Haller

07-31-03, 07:57 PM

TIVO has the cost of the guide, and that must be paid for. With E thats not a additional expense,.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 08:06 PM

This new promotion for a free 510 for new subscribers is all fine and dandy and is a good deal for new subs, so that is not the problem. Why the charge now and not before? Why did the hardware cost not go down but remain the same if the DVR fee is going to be charged? Wasn't the whole idea of charging a DVR fee was to make up for the reduction in price on the hardware?

What about existing subscribers? Why do we all of a sudden have to pay the DVR charges and still be paying full price for the receivers? I think that a new subscriber would be more likely to pay this charge if they did not know what Tivo was like and that Dish knows this, if there is a promotion to get the receiver for very cheap or free.

The money for the cost of the receiver is made up on the price of the DVR fee over a period of time. Why can't the same be done for existing subscribers on the new DVR's? Figuring the difference in price of a 301 and 510 is $200 ($299-$99) it would take Dish 3 years and 4 months to make up for that difference compared to what the company normally subsidized the customer for. Dish figuring they have less churn with these customers, will more likely to be a customer for at least that long if they were a customer for 2 years (term of the contract with new subscriber), making money off of the other programming during the period of that 2 years and beyond, and penalzing the customer if he/she turns the programming off before the 2 years is up, it should not cost them anymore than it normally would.

Seeing that they could get $4.99 a month they would get $120 over a period of 2 years therefore they could reduce the hardware for that amount. Those that keep it longer than that would make Dish more money while those that did not keep it for that long would counteract those that kept it for over 2 years. Before customers would do this they will go with DirecTivo first, more than likely, but am wondering how much it does cost if you want to replace your current DirecTivo with another one compared to Dish Network.

platinum

07-31-03, 08:12 PM

to replace your current tivo is 199

Jacob S

07-31-03, 08:20 PM

It looks like Dish Network just simply wants to make more money. Period.

They want to diversify to get an increase in revenue from each customer and have done this so far by offering in addition to what they have more programming packages, monthly program guide, Playin' Tv, adding shopping channels and business tv channels for businesses, advertising on satellite (I read about this a while back), and in the future to diversify even more by adding more international channels, more locals (profit in some markets), HD, internet, and this new DVR fee, and Video On Demand (VOD) in which they reserve part of the hard drive space for that in the future on the PVR/DVR receivers.

I wonder if they are going to use some of that extra hard drive space to advertise before you view your PVR Event. Perhaps if they do the same thing that Tivo does on their lite version they would implement advertising since the basic version would be free and the paid version not be free making more money that way as well. I am surprised that they dont have a classified section on OpenTv where they charge you a small amount to have your ad on there for a period of time and charge it on your monthly bill.

These are some of the things that they are trying to do to increase their revenue and to diversify. Their goal is to try to get more and more and more money from each person that they can to have a greater average customer revenue. I wonder what is going to be next.

Mike123abc

07-31-03, 08:39 PM

Another thing is WHO WANTS TO HAVE TO COMMIT TO 24 MONTHS AND CCAP to buy a DVR? I have been a Dish sub for more than two years, I do not want to commit to another X number of years just to add a new box to my system. I rather pay the $250 and not have the commitment. I am an AEP sub, $250 is a little over 2 months programming to me (I am about 105/month right now). Why should I have to commit to years and thousands of dollars of programming for a new box? I did it when I subbed initially and got free installation, but I still had to buy my 6000s. I already did my time, I want the flexability now.

DishDude1

07-31-03, 08:46 PM

I think this is a good deal for new customers, the only problem I see with this is existing customers. Still charging the same price + a monthly fee. Again with E*, current customers get screwed.

Mike123abc

07-31-03, 08:48 PM

Another issue not addressed is if you have more than 1 DVR and AEP, are they going to charge you the $10/month for the second PVR...

Dish could easily solve this by simply allowing people to pay full price for the DVRs and not have to commit to programming or pay a fee. Then people have a choice and it is a win/win.

Scott H

07-31-03, 08:48 PM

I just don't understand what Dish Network is thinking. I have been a very happy Dish Network customer for many years and now they spring this on me. Sure I have had my share of problems with my 501 and 508, but all in all Dish has kept me happy. Up until now I have not considered leaving Dish, but that may change. Dish announced some great new PVR's many months ago and most of us were very excited about the designs and new features. Now before these units are even out Dish says "Oh by the way there will be an additional monthly fee". I for one am tired of additional monthly fee's. The price you pay for the PVR when you purchase the unit should be all you pay for the life of the PVR. The R&D costs, software costs, manufacturing costs, etc should all be included in the cost of the PVR.

If Dish had wanted to get more money out of us then they should have raised the cost of each programming package a little to all subscribers. This would get them the additional money they want and they could still say "Dish has no monthly PVR fee".

At one time I supported the merger of Dish and Direct. At this point I'm glad the merger failed. Had the merger suceeded we would not be able to switch to Direct. Who knows Direct may come up with some special deals to get exhisting Dish customers to make the change now that this additional fee has been announced. In my opinion this new fee is just pure greed on the part of Dish Network.

Mike D-CO5

07-31-03, 08:49 PM

You'll have to pay for any future software upgrades in order to get the best dvr functions like Tivo has. I really think Charlie will do this if he can get away with it.

He must be trying to bank a lot of money for the future of hdtv or he is preparing a huge" golden parachute" for when he bails out of Dish in the future. The future might be here quicker if than he thinks if he keeps charging fees for every little thing. Rainbow satellite might get a huge group of potential customers who will more than willing to switch from Dish just because of this sort of thing. Rainbow might have the potential to be the first all hdtv sat provider with their new technology , which would really put the squeeze on old Charlie . Of course he might be using the fees to buy the Rainbow satellite so he can do all the hdtv channels for Dish. That's it, it is all a plan to help subsidize his great transition to hdtv for his satellite company . Lord knows that hdtv channels take a lot of bandwith which neither Dish or Directv has now.

Of course I might be giving old Charlie to much credit for trying to think ahead about Dish's hdtv future. The real reason is that he can charge a fee and he is getting a little greedy .

I guess that Dish will have to take their commercials off where they say "Are you tired of cable rate hikes?" Soon this whole fee thing will be used against Dish to sell the Cable industry's dvrs with no fee or just a small one house fee. That is all cable needs another way to sell customers against satellite. TWC already has something on their website about satellite charging it's customers for additional receivers as a reason not to sub to satellite.

For what ever reason there is , Dish needs to clarify once and for all what why and how they are planning this for the future customer upgrades as well as new customers. The negative feeling about Dish and their decision is spreading more than on these web boards. Word of mouth is how Dish has sold a lot of new customers from dealers , and existing customers. They need to head this snafu off before it gets any worse. And remember Dish might think we are a bunch of tech geeks , but guess what? We talk to people in the work force , to our friends and families, sometimes to other customers in department stores like Best Buy , Radio Shack etc. And these people who we choose to talk, to well tell their families and friends and so on and so on and so on.

So unless Dish wants a lot more negative publicity than they got with the dishplayer, which they blamed on microsoft, they better come out with a statement or commercial announcement on their website or their help channel or hell send it as a commercial on our pvrs so we can here it straight from their mouth. Change this whole fee on every dvr receiver on your account and do some damage control before its to late.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 08:53 PM

Ok then, let me understand this correctly. Dish thinks its ok to charge $4.99 per DVR receiver when DirecTivo doesnt and Tivo Standalones do? DISH DVR IS NOT A STANDALONE PRODUCT!!! Perhaps if it did become one then that would be a different story and allow consumers to record OTA, cable, or anything that goes into that receiver.

Customers should also be able to get a choice in lifetime DVR for a reasonable price and the receivers should be discounted if they are going this route in charging for the DVR service. Dish will just about have to give these things away to get anyone to pay the DVR fee on them, especially if the hardware and software remains the same as it is today.

The whole point of subscribers of paying so much money before for these PVR receivers was so that we would not have to pay the dang DVR fee and save in the long run and now they want to charge the DVR fee anyways? Dang that is something else I tell ya, and per receiver too.

New customers will not have a problem with paying $4.99 per DVR receiver? Well I do not think new subscribers will like to pay an additional $4.99 on top of the $4.99 for the additional outlet for the second DVR. That will be a total of about $15 extra. Dish will just tell the consumers to get a 522.

rtt2

07-31-03, 09:02 PM

I'm with you Mike123abc I also think 2 years is also a little long and excessive. Committing for two years is a major leap of faith. There is no telling of future price increases down the road (or surprise fees like DVR fees) that might pop up. I am pretty sure that the XBOX in our house probably has more power than the boxes dish is selling and it costs what? >$200. There is no way I would sign a contract for two whole years just to get a set-top DVR. A lot can happen in that period of time - For example I could get transferred and my new place may not have a southern view. Then I would be screwed and E* would be the only winner.

Jacob S

07-31-03, 09:26 PM

Screw us once, shame on Dish, screw us twice, shame on us. That is whats going on. Bad hardware and software in many cases is how we were screwed the first time. We dont want the same again with an increased cost so thats why so many want to finally get rid of these darn ridden problems if they do have to pay a fee. Thats what this is all about.

Dish, you have no right to complain about extra fees that the states want to imply on us when you are wanting to do the same. Thats just like telling your child that its not ok to steal money then taking your child's $5 afterwards in a way. Lets see here, didn't Dish try to bill people for $99 that owned a Dishplayer? Didn't Dish say that there was a ''lifetime'' PVR fee on the Dishplayers or no charge ever? Didn't Dish try to keep a lot of people's money that shut off programming early? Didn't Dish not give out rebates on systems and programming in the past? Didn't Dish get into trouble for some if not all of those actions?

Heck, Charlie might be trying to make as much money as he can now while he can before its all downhill when cable gets him with all the bandwidth they have for internet, HD, etc.

When it comes to someone doing good or someone favoring a company over another, that type of news does not spread nearly as fast and as much as people that does not favor a company, so this would be by far worse. Good news may travel from one person to five people but bad news will travel from one person to twenty people.

Mark Holtz

07-31-03, 10:29 PM

All I wanted was a bigger hard drive for my PVR. Dish intentionally made their 50x series so that you cannot swap out the hard drive. I can swap out the hard drive for my PC, but not my PVR. Why?

So, the best hope for a DVR with a bigger hard drive is to purchase one from Dish. But, I didn't want to pay a monthly fee for inferior software. The Tivo software is much better. Dish wants to charge me for "Playin' TV" with games that can easily be downloaded for free off the Internet.

It is bad enough that a portion of the bill that I pay goes to the highest priced channels that I don't even watch, and that's the $ports channels. I don't watch E$PN or my Regional $ports Network. Hell, YE$ wants $2 per subscriber in a market that already has two or three R$Ns depending on where you live.

And the 721? What the heck is going on? This was supposed to be the DVR that was going to be Dish's replacement for the DishPlayer. But, apparently, not much is happening, as if Dish wants to put this box behind them as well despite some good potential. Since it is Linux based, why don't they take a look at the OpenSource community at MythTV (http://www.mythtv.com/)?

Foxbat

08-01-03, 01:36 AM

And now we all know why the 811 won't have DishWire...

Also, wasn't Echostar's penalty for the merger failing something on the order of $600M? They have to pay for that somehow. Increasing AT sub prices would increase defections to a larger degree than implementing DVR fees on new units (IMO).

That said, I think Dish should use a dollar amount as the target for "free" DVR services instead of just having AEP (wait, I have American Electric Power, I'm good!) (oh, right, America's Everything Package, grrr.) So, if I subscribe to AT100+HBO+Cinemax ($50), HD Package ($8+), Superstations ($6), Locals ($5), and Sports ($6), I'd be paying the same as the AEP. I think that should qualify.

Also, as everyone else has mentioned, Dish should do this on an account basis versus for each DVR. Granted, most households will have only one PVR/DVR, but being charged twice (additional receiver fee + DVR fee) is too much like double-dipping, which is fine for ice-cream cones, but leaves a bad taste in your mouth in this situation.

Bob Haller

08-01-03, 06:55 AM

sent this to sky this morning. I hope others will do something similiar. A bit of media attention may get them to come to their senses.

Send your mail to!!! editor@skyreport.com.

You have a lot of avid readers out here. Perhaps theres a story for you here.

Dish is going to charge for new DVRs. a monthly fee per receiver.

This is fine for new subs who essentially get their box for free. But by doing this long term existing subs get screwed. We will be forced to pay full retail PLUS the fee Plus in all honesty dishes PVRs arent as stable as Directs, lack features like name based recordings, and have ongoing problems with software upgrades causing glitches.

Honestly they release half designed buggy software and have ther subscribers beta test the units.

The 721 their top of the line box was promised to provide internet access which was never made available. This box is now out of production and people are disappointed.

Perhaps you could look into this. Please see these discussions as to why were upset. Apparently this is falling on deaf ears at diish. They think everything is OK.

DBSTalk.COM / SatelliteTalk.COM - Official Dish DVR-510 Information from Dish DBSTalk.COM / SatelliteTalk.COM - DVR 510 announced and monthly fee3! DBSForums Discussion Forums: DISH Network announces DVR fees

Thanks much for your time Bob Haller

__________________

Lee L

08-01-03, 07:02 AM

HTGuy, if the 921 comes out and it is $699-$700 instead of the $999 mentioned just 2 1/2 weeks ago on the Tech Chat, then you may have a point. I still can;t beleive that they changed their mind so quickly but if they did, why not at least mention that as prt of this new strategy, the 921 will be reduced in porice as well (no need to even go into more detail than that). E* could have even adressed that issue with Scott, but instead said only that the 921 will have the fee (again, no need for details, just a simple acknowledgement that the price will be less).

As far as I can devine, E* just raised the cost of the 921 by at least $300 bucks if you think that people will keep it about 3 years or more.

johnsbin

08-01-03, 07:23 AM

sent this to sky this morning. I hope others will do something similiar. A bit of media attention may get them to come to their senses.....

Well Bob, looks like that backfired. The top news at SkyReport this morning has an article saying Wall Street says the plan is SMART! Dish is not going to disturb the already existing base but only charge the new subscribers to avoid the CHURN issue.

Apparently, we are the only ones who have a problem with Charlie's outstanding business acumen.

This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends.

:nono2:

ToddMeister

08-01-03, 07:31 AM

I've been a Dish customer since 1998. First I went through the Model 4000 Blackouts...

Then I went through the Dishplayer fiasco. At least I had free "lifetime" PTV. Loved the interface, but it was too hard to watch TV with the DP's. Too much tinkering and work arounds to keep the things going. I finally sent them to pasture on eBay.

Now I have a couple 508's. They're much better but NOT perfect. Poor guide controls <compare to DP's> and occasional glitches. But the proceeds from the eBayed DP's more than covered the new 508's. I'm fairly happy so far.

Been waiting for my locals forever. Guess what? DTV plans to add them yet this year, no plans from Dish. Getting less happy now.

And when the 508's puke and no more are available, Charlie will have his hand in my pocket again with a new model DVR. I don't think so. Now I'm unhappy. Sorry Charlie, you will lose another customer to DTV.

I don't recommend Dish to others anymore, either.

Looks like a change will be in the future...

jrbdmb

08-01-03, 07:51 AM

This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends. :nono2:I did a little exercise yesterday to compare costs of E* vs. D* for the programming I want (AT150 / TC+, all RSNs, two DVRs). As of today E* is $2 cheaper, and gives me the Encore channels and TMC - but doesn't have YES, and doesn't include FSW2 in the RSN package.

If the DVR fee is ever implemented on the 508s, D* then becomes $8 less expensive. Guess what - when that happens, I switch.

Chris Freeland

08-01-03, 08:33 AM

I did a little exercise yesterday to compare costs of E* vs. D* for the programming I want (AT150 / TC+, all RSNs, two DVRs). As of today E* is $2 cheaper, and gives me the Encore channels and TMC - but doesn't have YES, and doesn't include FSW2 in the RSN package.

If the DVR fee is ever implemented on the 508s, D* then becomes $8 less expensive. Guess what - when that happens, I switch.

Is this new math? You said that you currently pay $2 less for E* then D* for what you want, how does adding a $4.98 DVR fee add up to D* becoming $8 cheaper? MY old fashioned math indicates to me that D* would only be $2.98 cheaper. In addition to this you will not be paying a DVR Fee for your 508 ever, you will only pay this fee if you replace your 508 with the new 510 :shrug: .

GFloyd

08-01-03, 08:35 AM

... The top news at SkyReport this morning has an article saying Wall Street says the plan is SMART! Dish is not going to disturb the already existing base but only charge the new subscribers to avoid the CHURN issue.

:nono2:
I don't think I've ever posted here, but like may I've read this entire thread & am keenly interested.

For the here and now, I will stay with Dish. I have a 501, 508 and two 301s. I also get OTA HD & enjoy in very much. I want a DVR for my HD and had planned to buy a 921 when they became available. Now I know I will not becuase I'm not paying the same for less as it relates to the Tivo vs Dish DVR functionality. When D* offers a HD DVR, I'll cancel E* and take advantage of what I'm sure will be reduced prices on Direct Tivo boxes.

My current bill is around $75 / month. Add on the HD pkg & E* will loose my $85 / month ...

So in response to the Wall Street analyst, they are right for now. However, I suspect that in the future E* will see its high dollar HD customers move to D* ...

Greg Bimson

08-01-03, 08:44 AM

Originally written by johnsbin:
This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends.The worst part of this whole matter is that many of the people here helped to promote Dish Network to potential customers. Those people are very responsible for helping the company gain critical mass in Dish Network's subscriber growth.

And now that Dish Network is at critical mass for sub growth, they are changing plans, moving towards profit growth.

It makes one feel violated when a company whose service you enjoy decides to nickel and dime, just like a cable company.

Chris Freeland

08-01-03, 09:19 AM

Thanks for a breath of fresh air, HTguy .

Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?

The other day in a chat directed to retailers E* announced a new promotion for new customers and a change in their PVR...er, DVR policy.

What it amounts to is a move in the DirecTivo marketing direction of charging less for the hardware and collecting a fee-for-service based on programming just like DirecTV.

As a matter of fact, for new subs on this promo all the hardware and all the normal installation will be free. This could be 1 or 2 301s (like before) or a 510 or a 510 & a 301 or even 3 301s with a 2-yr agreement.

This is actually a great promotion and a great deal for new customers.

So what's the problem? As is too often the case, E* opened it's big mouth too soon. The promo doesn't even begin until 8/24. They should have waited until after the customer chat in which they could have explained the whole DVR policy to existing customers. (Just like they previewed the PVR...oops...DVR921 so long before it could be ready, just like they previewed and released the 721 before it was stable, just like they previewed the 322, the 522, SuperDish, etc., ad nauseum...you get the idea.)

The word leaked out as it always does and all of us are in an uproar. Now let's see what all the panicking is about: they're going to keep charging more for DVRs and charge a monthly $10.00 to boot. Right? Wrong!

First of all, the cost to new customers for the hardware is zero. That's what this is all about. A way to expand the subscriber base. (Actually, a new sub in Sept. gets a free DVR + a free 301 if they want it + $149.97 in T100VP credits, too.)

So what about all of us existing subs? Well, most of us on this board already have PVRs, to use the quaint term, for which we will never pay fees. That goes for several 100K, if not over 1M, other E* subs, too. And there are plenty of 508s and 721s still available for those that want them. Almost any existing cust can get a 508 on a low cost UPG Promo.

Speaking of which, the PVR UPG Promo as it is ends 8/31, after which, according to JD, "There will be changes.

The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.

But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.

And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too. And, BTW, they won't have a/o fees for the 2nd tuner like some people seem to think."

Thank you, this confirms what I have said in some of my previos posts.

Incidentally, other than DarrellP how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99? Not many. Most PVR subs get at least T100 + locals + at least one premium, usually HBO. The $9.99 isn't much of a factor and it's obviously designed to move potential T50 subs up & keep the rest from downgrading. Churning to D* won't help here since they don't have a $24.99 package.

Now, I must agree that the per box vs. per acct. policy kind of sucks but it's in keeping with the reduced up-front cost marketing plan. The number of multiple PVR subs is so negligible as to be insignificant to E* today & that will keep it so. It certainly won't affect me or most of us here, either.

OK, before I get flamed for speculating about lower hardware costs & UPGs to existing subs just remember that even if all of us packed up & left E*for good it's not as stupid a move for them as some are thinking. For every one on this board that churns (and I don't really think there will be many once all the pricing changes come out) there will be hundreds of new subscribers.

Some have speculated that E* needs more $s coming in due to the increased support necessary compared to basic boxes. There could be something to this as more & more of their custs get DVRs. The fact is that their whole CS Dept & its "Tech Support" is pretty clueless about the DVRs. They're still telling people to pull the card when there's a problem & RA the box when that doesn't fix it. So they are rotating a lot (and I mean a lot) of units thru El Paso that just needed a Power Reset.

So I say, "Settle down, folks."

You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.

I agree here 100%, I too got very upset when I first read of the changes. After thinking things through, I have comed down and will probably remain a E* sub for the foreseeable future. I still do not like the per-unit DVR charge, however I am not likely to ever own more then one DVR box. If I can get a 522 at a good promo price I will be happy, I can then replace both my old 2000 and 2700/2800 receivers and simply pay the DVR fee instead of the extra receiver fee that I pay now. It would be nice if E* would offer a life-time DVR subscription option but it would not be a deal breaker for me if they do not, though it may be for some here. It would also be good if E* could improve their DVR software by adding features like name based recording and improve the stability problems that have plagued many here, which is one major reason many here are so upset by these charges.

ocnier

08-01-03, 09:36 AM

"STICKIN IT TO THE MAN!!!!....... I DON'T JUST GET MAD I GET EVEN"

OCNIER GOES TO WAR:

I just wanted everyone to know that I went to my local best buy this morning here in the DFW metroplex (this is not a small market charlie) and had a chat with the electronics manager there. I discussed with him who I was and explained the news concerning E*'s DVR decision comin out. I brought the ad slick and the new pricing structure provided by Scott G, and I made copies. I explained to him how he could persuade present/future customers to either drop dish or remove it from their future buying consideration that this was huge selling new for D* and the achilles heel for E*. We went over a comparison of the companies and he said he would definitely fax the slick to other stores with detailed info on the cost points for service. Needless to say, the guy laughed and was surprised by E*'s decision concerning DVRs. He had himself been looking at the two for a purchase of a DVR. I TOTALLY solidified his decision. I just hope two things happen
1). This becomes more common knowledge among shoppers considering the satellite route and that the path to take is obvious now
2). I cost Charlie not a few hundred dollars, but several THOUSAND DOLLARS in lost sales (even in his vaunted new sub market).

P.S. I just hope Charlie gets to read this, because I'm hittin em' where it hurts the most baby, in the pocket book BIATCH!!!! Get ready charlie cuz I'm bringin the pain Whoa Huh!...... lol

abospaum

08-01-03, 10:25 AM

Any thoughts as to whether D* will offer a nice promotion to new or more specifically to E* customers when they come out with HD*Tivo.

I have been a E* customer for about 5 years and the only piece of equipment that I ever bought was my 501. Everything else I got as part of promos or replacements.

If D* offers new subs, free satellites, install and a 2 room set-up free with a discount on a third receiver (HD*Tivo) then I'd go in a heartbeat.

My guess is E* will probably charge new subs only about $300 for a 921 while they try to get $999 out of their loyal customer base. This annoys me more than anything.

DaYooper

08-01-03, 11:21 AM

jrbdmb

08-01-03, 11:35 AM

Is this new math? You said that you currently pay $2 less for E* then D* for what you want, how does adding a $4.98 DVR fee add up to D* becoming $8 cheaper? MY old fashioned math indicates to me that D* would only be $2.98 cheaper. In addition to this you will not be paying a DVR Fee for your 508 ever, you will only pay this fee if you replace your 508 with the new 510 :shrug: .My post above stated two 508s, therefore $9.96 per month extra (I do admit to rounding up to the nearest dollar.) And as for never paying a 508 DVR fee, E* also sold "Lifetime" Dishplayer service and then tried to redefine the definition of "Lifetime" - so forgive me if I don't totally trust them on that point. :kickbutt: But like said above, it is business, they can choose to start charging for DVRs now (and perhaps the 501/508/721 sometime in the future) - and subs are then free to reevaluate their options.

jrbdmb

08-01-03, 11:47 AM

The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.

But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.

And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too. Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?

dinkster

08-01-03, 11:52 AM

Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?
I hope that he is correct. I would love to see some confirmation of this from Dish! It sure would calm me down a bit.

DTV

08-01-03, 12:15 PM

Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?

Pure speculation from a Dish cheerleader.

mdrobnak

08-01-03, 12:17 PM

Ok, for all of those who have been defending the fees:

Here's the problem...

1. I'm a movies person. This means: I subscribe to AT50 (which gets me channels of which 95% of the time I don't watch), but also subscribe to 3 movie packages...So my bill is still $75 a month.

2. I like HDTV. I love HDTV. I want to RECORD my HDTV. I have the 5000 and modulator, a MyHD card, and I just picked up a DVHS VCR. My problem is that only the 921 (as announced so far) will have firewire connections on it (aside from the 211 -- I don't have a Mits TV, nor can I afford to get one...), so if, and this is a BIG if, I were to get a 921 for $999 -- or even $699, which is still quite a bit in my opinion...I would be charged $10 because I have AT50...what about the HD package when it comes out? I would be one of the first to buy the SuperDish and get the HD package...so lets see..that would make my bill at least $85, most likely $95 (assuming $10 for the HD package)...There is NO WAY I'm spending $100 a month on freaking TV. That's insane. $75 is too much as is really, but we have Cablevision here in Yonkers, NY. Anyone that's had the pleasure of dealing with them knows, aside from Optimum Online, they're offerings are terrible.

What this means to me...

if they don't figure out some alternate pricing plan -- ie, like this:

9.99 if AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus
4.98 if AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max OR AT50 + 2 premiums
0.00 if AEP or AT150 + 1 premium AT100 + 2 premiums or AT50 + 3 premiums...

I think that's relatively fair, as it takes into account what the actual bill is, NOT just "oh, they're on the lowest programming package, lets charge them a lot"

I buy what I want to watch..I don't need 100 more channels (some of which are MUSIC -- ever heard of CDs? a radio? mp3 players? xm radio? Sirius? ...) of JUNK (to me it's junk, some people might love the other channels, but I'm speaking for myself here)

In conclusion:

DISH -- THINK about your CURRENT customers...If not... We might just leave...

btw, someone brought up Rainbow satellite...Oh look at that ... 61.5'w hmm I OWN that dish. Oh look, all HDTV programming... hmmm... just a thought....

-Matthew Drobnak
Current, but not necessarily future, customer.

Darkman

08-01-03, 12:46 PM

You people have gone mad i see....

Weeeeeeeeeee :)

Like an uncontrolable Lava or something!

DarrellP

08-01-03, 12:59 PM

Incidentally, other than DarrellP how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99?
HTGUY, you got it wrong, I will NOT stay with the AT50, I want to DROP all DISH programming EXCEPT for the HD package. DISH SD sucks on a HD set so when I can get the HD package, I don't want any of their crappy SD channels and I will not be held hostage to their DVR fee, so SCREW DISH, I get lots of HD OTA anyway & Directv is just a phonecall away.

Bob Haller

08-01-03, 01:00 PM

I think we can all agree that if the boxes cost a LOT less for existing subs then the monthly fee wouldnt be a show stopper. But defranco has already released their retail price. No break there:(

I think we can all agree that a per receiver fee is dumb and competively wouldnt last as lojng as D is per account.

I think we can all agree we feel this cheats us.

I think we can all agree a LIFETIME free PVR offer should be available for long term subs.

E needs to make money bvut not discourage receiver upgrades or look like they are cheating us.

As is this situation stinks.

treiher

08-01-03, 01:06 PM

Darkman:You people have gone mad i see....

Weeeeeeeeeee

Like an uncontrolable Lava or something!

More like an uncontrollable flow of money from Dish Network to DirectTV I fear. This is amazing! People obviously feel strongly about this. Dish should take advantage of having this resource and react accordingly. Without this board, they could make a decision like this and not know the consequence until the money is already flowing. They have a rare chance to stop a big mistake before it even gets started!

Jeff_R

08-01-03, 01:43 PM

Scott,

Is there any word on whether this is an optional fee or not? If I choose to get the 510 PVR (completely hypothetical, I'm not switching back to E* again!), can I choose to just use the receiver as is, without the PVR functionality? Or will they force me to pay the fee because I have the reciever?

I believe with Directv, the TiVo fee is only applicable if I decide to sub to it, it's not mandatory if I'm not mistaken (If I am, I'm sure someone will correct me soon!).

Jeff

Bob Haller

08-01-03, 01:50 PM

I have suggested to some "contacts" That they look at this long and hard. It unusual to see E trashed all over the net. Now wether this does any good is another matter.
I think they are loosing a lot of good will and creating a army of permanent E bashers. Myself included if this doesnt change.......

How sad

I think we should try to get this contact past the call screeners on the next chat. CC autopay morphs to PVR fees for long term subs:)

What would be a proper reward for getting this on the air??? I might be willing to give the person a gift for pulling one over on the screeners. What would be appropiate?

They will not let me on, since I have complained in the past:(

tampa8

08-01-03, 01:57 PM

As is this situation stinks.

Amen. And that is the bottom line. If we have the facts correct, the business model Dish will put into place stinks, and sure seems like it will hurt them. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but to have a top 150 subscriber pay more for DVR functions, especially if they buy a 921 at $999 is rediculas. I'm not sure even at a lower buying cost I'm interested in paying $10 more a month forever. ($5 DVR $5 2nd receiver)

Bob Haller

08-01-03, 02:01 PM

I always bought cable converters and things like that, since I hate paying monthly fees.

I guess all dishplayer users know now the monthly fees will be coming back to them soon.

Jacob S

08-01-03, 02:08 PM

I also think that they should make those that purchase a lot of programming that would equal the value of the AEP package should also get the DVR service for free. They could make special packages with the DVR service included just as they have their special $30 package with locals and special HBO/MAX with top100 and top150 package for $50 and $60.

Question is, will there bill a charge for a second DVR anyways with the AEP package?

Also, why should those that just want a bigger hard drive have to buy a new receiver and on top of that have to pay the extra DVR fee when Dish could allow consumers to upgrade their own hard drives?

dishrich

08-01-03, 02:45 PM

FWIW, I have it IN WRITING that the 921 AND 522 were going to have FREE PVR service - it's in an E* slick brochure that I picked up at CES in January. (I'd post it for everyone to see, but don't have a scanner hooked up - I'll try & post it later) :rolleyes: :scratch: ;)

Course, I know (as a dealer) what E*'s word is worth, be it in writing or not... :eek2: :mad: :bang:

DarrellP

08-01-03, 03:00 PM

You're right, free PVR service, but since these are now DVR's, that brochure is useless. I hope you are right though and they do not charge a fee for the 921.

Jacob S

08-01-03, 03:12 PM

Keep those brochures, it could still be considered misrepresentation of the product but at the same time since it was not presented to public and not meant to be it may not get you anywhere whether it said PVR or DVR. Would this mean that a business could promise lifetime service to a customer under a certain business name then simply change their business name and not have to service the customer anymore? Perhaps Dish should be reminded of this and having a copy of it sent to them.

Now I know that they had this planned sometime since that CES show so they have not had it planned for that long.

ocnier

08-01-03, 03:13 PM

dishrich

Please post that as soon as you can. If nothing else it sets a time frame for when this was decided definitively.

Darkman

08-01-03, 03:21 PM

ya - LOL - they'll say DVR service is not PVR service... - so it is NOT a "fee-FREE" :D

also - check somewhere on the brochure, maybe in small letters somewhere for the "Subject to Change" thinggy ( hehe - just Joking on this one :) )

But then again - who knows, stranger "chit" was known to happen :p

Jacob S

08-01-03, 03:42 PM

Or perhaps it could be deemed as calling something two different things when in all actuality it is the same thing. Thats like calling a satellite receiver a box, tuner, descrambler, etc. when its the same thing. The only difference is the hard drive.

I would not be surprised if there is small print saying that all prices and services are subject to change without notice at any time.

Jacob S

08-01-03, 04:06 PM

If the 921 is going to be $699 instead of $999 then why is there no discount on the 510 then? Or is this some 2 year contract promotion for new subscribers only for $699 (a $300 discount instead of taking the $300 510 receiver). Dish is not going to sell the 921 for $299 to new subscribers and take an additional $700 hit just on that one receiver to get a new subscriber.

Doesn't Tivo give you the light version of their software for free? Why couldn't Dish do the same? Wouldn't Tivo's light version of their software be like Dish's current version of the software we see right now?

You would end up paying who knows how much for all those HD channels and still be forced to buy AEP to not be charged the DVR fee? Yeouch! There should be a deal for those that buy a certain amount of programming or HD to encourage HD subscriptions. Dish is two faced trying to help stop the satellite tax but tries to charge a per receiver DVR fee and retail price even though he is charging a fee. He knows that if you get taxed more then you will be less likely to pay him as much so he would rather you pay him than the money on taxes. Its not about saving you money, its about getting Dish more money.

Speaking of revenge, I got in business by getting revenge against Primestar back in 1999 by swapping out about 50 to 60 customers to Dish Network getting the customer a free system and free install and later free 6 months of the basic package as a bonus. Every once in a while I have to remind them of how I got in business and how I can do the same against them. I made Dish tens of thousands I am sure along with many other retailers that also retailed for Dish some doing it because they backed Dish up believing in the company.

Dish will not do anything that it does not have to do in which may include not improving DVR service but I know what I will have to do if they do such things as this and try to make money off of it, I will have to sell other types of service. I am hoping Rainbow will have retailers to sell the product for them but am not sure if they will take that route or not.

shortiemcgee

08-01-03, 04:24 PM

Take five minutes of your time and call 800-333-3474 and talk to a sales rep. Say you are interested in buying a system but read that there will be a PVR fee on ALL PVRs (okay strech the story a bit). Tell them you read that it is going to be $10 per month on each reciever.
They will tell you that "I'm sorry, I don't have that information". Tell them you won't be signing up because of the fee and hang up.
Doesn't take much time but if enough people do it, you can assume the message will get across.

angiodan

08-01-03, 04:29 PM

I am also trying to find a brochure from CES 2003, but here is an article from the show.

http://www.tech-4-homes.com/news/ces2003/dishnetwork921.htm

Half way down, it clearly says it. NO PVR FEES!!

They wouldn't have wrote it, if it wasn't written or told to them somewhere.

In this article from Sound and Vision, it talks about the 921 and then the HD Tivo. For the HD TIvo, it talks about a monthly fee. The way the article is written implies no fee with the 921. Its about half way down the article as well.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=386

I'm sure I'll find more.

This fee crap was definitely cooked up after CES in January.

Mark Holtz

08-01-03, 05:22 PM

Actually, I called Dish to remove CC autobill. When they asked if I was satisfied with my service, I said NO, and explained why. Poor gal, she had to consult a supervisor.

Chris Freeland

08-01-03, 05:39 PM

Mark Lamutt

08-01-03, 05:39 PM

Please, if you start calling the Dish CSR's, at least try to be nice to them. They have no idea any of this is happening, and even if they did, they couldn't do anything about it. Granted, while a lot of the CSRs aren't very competent, they AREN'T the bad guys here. Please don't treat them like they are.

Back to lurking in this thread now...

HTguy

08-01-03, 08:37 PM

Well, I'm going to try one more time to put things in perspective.

The announcement of DVR fees was premature, incomplete and not meant for most of the people on this board.

DISH Network is not in the hardware business. They design, manufacture & distribute the hardware as a means of providing programming to their subscribers. They are in the TV programming business. They give away most of the hardware with basic installation at a substantial loss ("Customer Acquisition Costs") in hopes of making it back plus an eventual profit via program subscriptions. Their primary focus always has been and always will be increasing their subscriber base & up-selling the programming.

(BTW, this keeps the overall cost of programming low to all of us with minimal increases in spite of higher rates from the providers plus occasional additions.)

Selling new equipment to old customers is neither a priority nor a revenue stream. As a matter of fact, for retailers it's break-even or a loss (a "cost of business.") Actually, it almost always a loss if you factor in S&H costs and overhead.

The overwhelming majority of DISH Network subscribers are not interested in the equipment at all. To them it's just a box that puts a picture from a satellite on their TV. A minority of them appreciate upscale features like DVR & HDTV. But even many DVR owners & leasers hardly ever use the DVR capability if at all.

(I just got off the phone with a nice lady who has had one for 15 months. She was beginning to notice some video stuttering & I instructed her how to do a power reboot which solved the problem. While it was rebooting I asked her if her hard drive was full. She didn't know what I meant. I asked her how many hours of events had been recorded. It turns out she has never recorded anything! This is not as untypical as the dbs geeks in this forum may think.)

But since DVR users tend to be better & "stickier" customers E* has been trying to make it cheaper & easier for new subs to get a DVR and they instituted a revolutionary (for them) upgrade program for existing subs.

In keeping with this they have now instituted a system wherein new customers can get a DVR system with nothing out of pocket. This should attract a lot of new customers to our mutual benefit.

The fact that the MSRP for the new DVR510 is $299 is almost completely irrelevant because almost nobody will buy it for $299. You will probably never see one on the shelf at Sears but if you did & someone bought one it will be a rare occurrence & most likely a return.

Ask yourself if you were really waiting for a new 120G DVR to come out so you could run out & buy it for $299. First, you were unaware of its existence. Secondly, you had no intention of paying $299 for a new DVR just because it has a bigger hard drive whether or not you found out it had monthly fees. And you still won't. The point of the monthly DVR fee is to reduce the upfront cost as much as it is to keep a long term revenue stream.

The next DVR you get, if you ever get one, will be on a DVR promotion that saves you the costs up front. It probably won't be a 510. It could be a 522 but in that case the $5mo will be negated by the $5mo a/o fee you don't pay for the 2nd tuner. (Someone here postulated that a 522 would cost $15mo extra!)

If you have a 501/508/721 today, or get one while they are available, you will never pay a fee. It's been announced, repeated and put in writing.

The DVR most of us have been waiting for is the 921. It will cost a lot less than projected now. The only downside is that it may take a while to get the UPG deal in place for existing subs so you may not be the 1st kid on the block to have one after all.

I saw someone say they would never sign a 2-year agreement for a DVR UPG Promo. For a 5xx series it would only be one year anyway. But if you could get a 921 for $499 with a 2-year agreement I bet a lot of people would go for it (including me!)

Getting "in Charlie's face" is not going to change anything. And neither would the "defection" of all the dbs geeks on all the forums.

So calm down, take a breath & wait for the chat on the 11th.Originally posted by bob dylan
...and don't criticize what you can't understand
for the times, they are a' changing!

Jacob S

08-01-03, 09:02 PM

I also know that anything you tell the CSR's will do you no good. They do not know as much as we do and there is nothing that they can do. All they can do is their basic routine of answering the phone, tell you what the computer tells them what to say, answering questions, activating/deactivating/changing programming. Thats about it.

shilton

08-01-03, 09:56 PM

Remember in the 80's when someone got the bright idea to make NEW COKE??? Seemed like a good idea to someone but things are not always as rosey as they appear on paper. A difference was made that time because the customers stood up and spoke out for what they believed in. If you believe this fee is un-necessary and unfair as I do, contact Dish and tell them so. Tell your friends to as well. If enough speak out, they will listen. If we just shut up and take it, they won't...its that simple. Its a matter of the power of the people.

Jacob S

08-01-03, 10:08 PM

shilton

08-01-03, 10:13 PM

I think its also a matter of telling this information to the right person because if you just tell a CSR this may never get noted and the information may never get moved on to the right person. Perhaps an email to Charlie Ergen himself would get his attention or another higher up.
Yes...that's true. I plan on using the ceo@echostar.com email address for starters. Surely someone other than a CSR will read that.

Bob Haller

08-01-03, 10:15 PM

Frankly I think most folks will be put off by the fee and not knowing better will buy or get a standard receiver. Lowering the entry price will not help when so many dont understand what a PVR, DVR. is or how its used.

I also disagree that subs will be limited to just one PVR. I just completed upgrading to a 721 and two 508s. Turned off my last remaining 4900 the other day.

My TIVO friends all are getting all their tvs on tivos. Heck I find myself wanting to pause the radio:)

On the CSRs. Having E PVRs I have spent way too much time with tech support. I have churned thru 3 721s and 4 or 5 508s.

The CSRS I have spoken with have all been friendly, helpful and pretty knowledgable.

THIS IS GREAT PROGRESS FROM JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO!!!!

Whats going on here is good but sad. We are bringing to Es atrtention the poor quality of their PVR boxes, along with making them aware of how we long term subs feel.

Having spoken with my contacts they are still clueless as to why were upset:( E appears only interested in lowering the cost to new subs, I HOPE they sell a lifetime account free PVR offer.

I would like a two tiered PVR price. Low with fee or higher with no fee.

I will happily pay retail to get free PVR

shilton

08-01-03, 10:33 PM

Having spoken with my contacts they are still clueless as to why were upset:( E appears only interested in lowering the cost to new subs, I HOPE they sell a lifetime account free PVR offer.

Bob,
If Dish is clueless as to why we are upset, they need to only turn their eyes to AOL's current woes. Sooner or later customer growth starts to die off and at that point, if you have no customer retention, your business begins to decline. AOL spent years of rapid growth figuring they had to do NOTHING for the existing customer because so many people kept on signing up and today they are retraining their CSR's in customer retention and begging customers to stay. They finally realized what they needed to know all along. TAKE CARE OF THE CUSTOMERS YOU HAVE. If Dish turns us off, they will lose in the end because sooner or later the rapid growth stops...Besides how much of that growth is from those of us participating in ClubDish promos, etc. Do you think I will refer a friend if I feel burnt by Dish??? Guess again. This while thing just stinks!!!
With most things, the cost of technology gets cheaper like cell phones, computers etc...If Dish were smart, they'd find ways to make the things cheaper and better NOT MORE EXPENSIVE!!!

Jacob S

08-01-03, 10:40 PM

That would be good if they would have it as a lifetime PVR service on the account instead of the receiver but you have to realize if they do this they will have to charge you retail price on the PVR receiver.

Dish needs to receive the money for the PVR receiver one way or another, by getting the money up front in which they should be doing with getting retail out of the product or with the monthly fee if the receiver is discounted initially. It is now obvious that Dish is wanting to not only get consumers this product because of low churn but take advantage of that by making a profit off of it since they are less likely to churn anyways.

They need to give consumers the opportunity to purchase the lifetime DVR service as well. Isnt that the purpose of purchasing for retail? Isnt retail supposed to be the price at which they want to get out of their product after making a profit? Perhaps they should mark up the cost of the receiver if they actually want to make a profit on it but I suppose they do not want to do this because that would deter customers right off the bat but to say one price for the receiver and one price for the monthly/lifetime DVR service makes it not look so bad.

Dish is obviously wanting the basic receivers to be the ones in which they do not make a profit on for those entry level customers and then make a profit on the higher end receivers one way or another. Its not bad for a company to want to make a profit but bad to charge a heck of a lot more than your competition and per receiver. Do you have to pay for the full programming price per receiver? Do you have to pay for Playin' Tv per receiver? No, its one fee per account.

Jacob S

08-01-03, 10:49 PM

Isn't Dish trying to compete against cable for having lower prices and how they do not raise their fees as much as cable does? I have read quite a few times about how Dish and DirecTv both have been looking more at subscriber growth trying to get more and more customers rather than trying to keep the ones that they do have. I read once where DirecTv gained 750,000 customers one quarter a while back (if I am not mistaken) but because they lost 500,000 customers their actual net gain was only 250,000 customers. What is going to happen once they quit getting as many new customers? They are going to have to try to keep the ones they have to still make the numbers look good to show actual gains. Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay $100 to keep some subscribers than paying $300-$500 to gain a new one? You could keep 3-5 subscribers for the same cost as gaining one new one.

Its one thing to get people into subscribing to satellite but another to get them to stay a satellite subscriber. You cannot assume that customer will stay once you get that person as a subscriber if you cannot remain competitive and keep the customer satisfied.

Jeff_R

08-01-03, 11:41 PM

Yes...that's true. I plan on using the ceo@echostar.com email address for starters. Surely someone other than a CSR will read that.

And your reply will be something like "Thank you for your email. We'll get back to you when we can tell you something." That was the message I got when I told them why I was cancelling, and why I was ticked at them. Seems even the CEO's email address is now subject to the lack of customer support that it once was. :confused:
Jeff

Mark Holtz

08-02-03, 12:19 AM

The only way to get a response on good issues is to write a letter.

Don't e-mail. It's easy to hit the delete key.

Don't fax. They can set up a system to download the faxes to the computer.

homam

08-02-03, 12:43 AM

:soapbox: 501, 508 , and soon to come out 510 cost dish network less than 100$ I install FTA dish with HD or PVR you could buy them for about 160$ cost with list price of 299$ that is 30GHD so you tell me now days with 120G HD costing dish less than 50$ :shrug: "i'm sure they don’t use the good stuff you could tell by the number of RAM that all of as had :grrr: " why they have the 510 priced at 299$ with the fee and the 721 over 400$ and the big joke 921 at over 900$ did any one look at dish k-10 earning statement and how much they make of hardware unite i thought they sale it to us at loss :bang :new_Eyecr :flaiming

shilton

08-02-03, 06:42 AM

The only way to get a response on good issues is to write a letter.

Don't e-mail. It's easy to hit the delete key.

Don't fax. They can set up a system to download the faxes to the computer.
Ok...anyone got a GOOD mailing address for their offices where the letter stands a chance at getting read? If so, please post it here. I WILL WRITE and I encourage others to do the same

Bob Haller

08-02-03, 07:11 AM

Bob Haller

08-02-03, 07:39 AM

Simple solution to this mess. E sells 510s with DVR fee and box is near free.

E sells 512 identical unit for retail and it carries FREE DVR for the life of the unit.

Customers have choice and purchase exactly what they want.......

Things get back to normal here:)

Bob Haller

08-02-03, 08:08 AM

Echostar
5701 S. Santa Fe Drive
Littleton Colorado 80120

Would someone please confirm the zip code? Theres a bit of ucertanity on this but this is headquarters and charlie.

I heard once of a tellegram service where the addressee HAD TO PERSONALLY sign for it. No secretaries or flunkies to reroute the mail. Wonder if this is still available?

Phil T

08-02-03, 08:35 AM

The zip code is correct.

Peluso

08-02-03, 08:38 AM

rh26

08-02-03, 09:06 AM

Dish needs to receive the money for the PVR receiver one way or another, by getting the money up front in which they should be doing with getting retail out of the product or with the monthly fee if the receiver is discounted initially.

I agree with this in part.

It appears that PVRs cost more money to E*:

1. Software development - the code in PVRs is more complex than in regular receivers

2. Continuing software development - both bug fixes and new features.

3. CSR support costs - more complexity equals more/longer calls (doesn't matter whether it's customer ignorance or buggy software)

4. Hardware replacement costs - boxes with hard drives fail more regularly than those without.

Apparently, E* thinks that adding $5 (average) per month per receiver is the best way to recover those costs. Others have argued that at best the charges should be per account. Let's look at each of the above:

1. DISAGREE - should be recovered as part of receiver cost.

2. REASONABLE - (let's ignore fairness issue of charging for bug fixes) charging equal amount per receiver that receives updates

3. MIXED - your multiple receivers may "act up" more than my one BUT ignorance calls should be same per account (or lower since you are smarter).

4. AGREE - hardware failures are related to number of receivers.

However, I am 100% convinced that E* is DEAD WRONG in trying to recover those costs with a monthly PVR fee.

Let's face it; a monthly fee turns off even new subs. If you are new to PVRs and see a monthly fee you just say "not interested" and get a 301. If you really want a PVR then you compare $5 monthly costs and (likely?) conclude that DirecTiVo is a much better product.

What should have E* done (or should be doing)?

1. Software development should be amortized over larger number of boxes. Many people have stated this...market PVRs!!

2. Software "support" - look to the shareware software community if you want a model. Continue to provide bug fixes (and minor enhancements such as things you had planned to put in initially or features that make you more competitive) for free via download as long as I am a customer with that receiver. BUT...Continue to develop more advanced features (that roll into new products) but bundle those into a "major release" that you market and charge for (one time). After having a 501 for 2 years would you pay $50 (per receiver perhaps with quantity discount) to version 2.0 software that included name based recording, etc.? I would...

3. CSR support costs can be reduced by first building a less buggy product! Second, if PVRs were preloaded with sets of getting started videos ("Basic Operation", "Recording Your First Show", "Searching", "Advanced Features", "Troubleshooting", etc.) perhaps you would get fewer ignorance calls.

4. Hardware replacement. If there is any E* billing plan that needs changing it the Extended Warranty. $2 per month and E* will replace anything no matter how much equipment you own. What idiot thought that was a good idea? Everone on this board knows that if you have even only 1 PVR you should buy this. How much money is E* losing here? I'd change the plan to the following: $2 per month base plan covers antenna and basic receiver, $1 extra if you have PVR. Then add $1 per month per additional non-PVR reveiver and $2 per month per DVR. Of course, these dollar amounts may not be right.

Under my plan, E* would be getting $1 per month more cash (Extended Warranty, 501 is only receiver) from me and I'm currently grandfathered! What's more they would be getting it voluntarily.

Submitted for your approval...

Bob Haller

08-02-03, 12:18 PM

I too agree E spends more on PVR subs but gains stickiness.

I think the monthly fee will hurt E PVR sales, but heck they need to find that out for themselves:)

Better boxes with more robust software, better drives, and fewer models all using the same basic software would go a long way to save them money.

Face facts they didnt need the 721 it should of used 501 basic software. Fewer models equals less cost and incremental improvements in software.

Of my 6 or 7 PVR replacements in the last two years most were software issues or found to be software later.

HDs should be plug in modules the sub could change themselves by plugging in.

The failed HDs would of never gone back to E if I could of swaped the HD myself.\

E should sell the HDs with preloaded software for easy swapping.

Back to my current idea. E selling two different models one cheap with charge DVR and one more exopensive with FREE DVR for the life of the box.

Whoewver decides the fee should be per box is out to lunch. That person should resign for stupidity:(

That will discourage even the most avid PVR user espically sounds bad to a new sub.

Unthinkable

08-02-03, 01:52 PM

I am so disappointed I am going to get a photo of me burning pom poms and put it on the net. E is screwing their loyal subs.

They are selling the 510 for roughly the same price as the 508. Its the same bdx with a bigger cheaper hard drive.

Nothing changed E just got greedy. I wouldnt do business with them anymore.

How about sneaking some calls about this on the next chuck chat? I will provide a gift for anyone who successfully gets it on the air!

Its my belief the beancounters have taken over and I doubt charlie is aware of the furor this has caused....

You've threatened to run kicking and screaming to DirecTV both here and over on alt.dbs.echostar for as long as most of the regulars have known you. If we had a nickel for everytime you said you were all done with Dish we could retire early as a group in all seriousness. Even when Dish properly remedies problems for you, there is usually no level of general satisfaction, appreciation, or happiness ever shown here when it gets down to the bottom line. As a disclaimer to all the hardware exchanges you've had so far, you should probably note more frequently that you aren't a typical user by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to recording shows. Please put your money where your mouth is and follow through on said threats for once if its truly a deal breaker for you and move on with things.

ads

08-02-03, 01:59 PM

IMO I think this is just a marketing ploy by dish.Jim and amir announce a new DVR the 510 that not many people have heard of or care about and they announce a fee.Three things happen (1) Wall Street picks up the story, good for the stock.(2)Dish is in the spotlight albeit negatively but the spotlight anyway.(3)Charlie is at the next chat says echo 9 launches the superdish is about to go into production and no DVR fee you asked for it you got it b.s. and now Wall Street really likes this.
If I am wrong dish your f*%#!ng crazy

Bob Haller

08-02-03, 02:59 PM

Look I have been a E supporter and cheerleader from the begining/ My interest and posting goes back over 6 years and is closer to 7. E has done so much for the industry like LIL, without that DBS would still be a also ran.

But I call them as I see them. I have pomed there good ideas but will call them out when they are wrong. This is clearly one of those times.

My last rant was about the DP fees coming back. E offered me a super upgrade, then decide to not institute the fees. If the fee issue hadnt comne up I would likely still be using my dippy dishplayers. I actually miss their user interface.

I just like EVERY OTHER CUSTOMER have the right to be happy or mad when spending my money!

If I supported or stayed silent on this issue would you be happy?

Nah you would probably complain about it.

Looks like someone will be unhappy WHATEVER i say:(

Oh well such is life. At least you know I call em as I see them>...

Darkman

08-02-03, 03:32 PM

hehe @ Unthinkable and Bob Haller :D

Jacob S

08-02-03, 06:34 PM

510 with DVR charge and 512 without a DVR charge is not going to happen. A simpler solution would have a lower hardware cost and let you choose whether you pay for lifetime DVR or a monthly charge. Why make the same receiver putting a different number on it to do the same? Can their computers not handle this as they had said about other things before? I guess they wont use that excuse as they know that we already know about that one.

ocnier

08-02-03, 10:26 PM

I think they might try a test run for lifetime pvr service, even at $200, I know that I would keep my 921 till the cows come home so it would be worth it, and still be better than tivo since D* doesn't even give that option. I already dropped them for D*, but I am still holding out a small glimmer of hope the charlie will come to his senses in time for xmas this year (assuming it actually is forsale this year).

Bob Haller

08-03-03, 07:58 AM

Isnt it odd that while D reduced Tivo fees E increased them dramatically?

D at the time thought it was better to retain subs.

If charlie doesnt do the you asked for it you got it I wonder how long before they see DVR sales drop and go with FREE DVR?

Jacob S

08-03-03, 11:27 AM

I also thought that was odd how Dish increases fees while DirecTv lowers them.

Dish should charge for the DVR upfront or per month, NOT BOTH!!! Either sell the product at retail in which includes lifetime DVR service, sell the product at a discount and charge for the DVR service, and/or improve the DVR service to make it worthwhile.

I am surprised that they do not charge $2 per PVR receiver on the extended warranty.

Also I am so surprised that Dish does not have some kind of live online tech support. I would think that this would save them a lot of money and be easier in some cases. Wouldn't it be nice if people had webcams and you could show live the screens on the receiver if someone was having problems, digital camera pictures of the trees around the area of an install and determining from that where to install the dish, and different things like that? I am surprised that Dish did not come up with their own message board a long time ago. They should have online live tech support and refer all their customers to that and then have the tech support over the phone if the customer does not have internet service. I would not mind working online doing something such as this.

I am not saying that I am definitely going to DirecTv. I am very comfortable being with Dish and would rather get a PC PVR without the fee in which is a lot more flexible anyways and thought of this even before this fee was announced because the hardware cost is less and for what I save I can get a DVD burner and do hard drive upgrades. The bigger hard drive and DVD burner could be used both for my computer and for PVR in which makes much more sense to have more uses for the product that you buy.

pjm877

08-04-03, 06:41 AM

Well, after reading all these messages... I think Dish is making a big error...

I was Looking at the HDTV package, and replacing the 811 (or whatever low end rec it came with) with a 921. That could come to well close to $2500-$3000... Guess Dish does not want my money.

I will stay with DISH until my 721 has failed and DISH (will not/can not) repair/replace the unit with a just in kind unit that does not have the Monthly fee.

As for the upgrades, I could see a new offering that the user must pay for the "Upgrade with new features", but bug fixes to your current software are free. You choose if you want to upgrade or not. I feel it would be OK if this was put in place for the 501 -> current PVR/DVR units.

AND, I feel that the "record by name" and the "Record for Season Pass" would be "NEW FEATURES", something you would have to "pass the palm with green" to get installed into your unit. This could easily be done with a code on the account, you pay.. your account as the code, and the unit will turn on this function. End of story.

I do not like the modle that E* is looking to use... And how will we really know if that "EXTRA" fee is really going toward better software engineers or software (R&D). I think it is being used to help recover from the failed attemp to get D*, and all that money Charile lost E*.

Now I am not in the DISH everthing group but my bill is over $60 a month for programing and the three units I have (501/721/6000) that "knock on wood" the 501 and 6000 are not giving me any problems.... the 721 is another thread all together.. But HDD will fail, and I hope DISH will replace...

Perry

DerekFSU

08-04-03, 08:45 AM

I was waiting for the 921 and the new HD package before switching back to Dish. Looks like now I'll stay with Direct and wait for the Tivo device.

Lyle_JP

08-04-03, 06:17 PM

I was cheesed over the "Superdish strategy" which would make my beloved 4900 obselete. I was miffed that there were no promotions for existing customers that would make upgrading to HD less expensive. But this new PVR, oh sorry, DVR fee is too much. I was actually willing to pony up for the 921 and superdish, but now, as soon as it's conveniant, D* here I come.

Congrats E*, you just lost a three year, $65+ /mo subscriber. I hope that extra $5/mo was worth it.

ocnier

08-04-03, 08:05 PM

You know what kills me the most is that D* will sweep them marketing wise. I mean this decision just doesn't make any sense at all. How on earth could can they possibly miscalculate this grossly. It's almost suicidal from a sales competition standpoint.

Scottyo

08-04-03, 09:28 PM

Whoa, what a hornets nest E* has stirred up with the Dbstalk folks. As I recall there was talk of a month fee to use the pvr functions on the 501, before they were released, but they decided to raise the price of the unit and drop the fee. Now I would like to make a suggestion that may lead E* to chance their minds. DO NOT BUY the new units. Now if I was a decision maker and I had an entire warehouse full of 510's with 522's and 921's on the way, I would rethink my plans to charge extra.

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 06:02 AM

Its not us that will decide. If the new sub rate drops because of the fee or few new subs opt for the 510 the fee will be history:)

Frankly I hope this bites them in the butt, not only here where they have done tremendous damage to their reputation but I hope the 510s collect dust in the warehouse.

I think a beancounter was behind the fees. Not only were they uncompetive with D but per unit? What were they thinking.

JedK

08-05-03, 07:21 AM

Does anyone know if the new charges will also include new functionality?

I have a PVR501, and I want to upgrade to the new PVR921.

I'm wondering if besides HD, will I get all the bells and whistles of TIVO. Will I be able to say I want to watch Justice League without having to worry about what time it is on? Isn't that the way TIVO works when you have the subscription?

I think I will be willing to pay the additional $5 a month with my 150 subscription if they added that capability?

Just a side thing.
Maybe someone has already said this, but my prediction is Aug 11th will be the launch of SuperDish, the 811, and PVR921. The reason I say this, is because Charlie Ergin will anounce it on Charlie Chat next Monday.

ylinen

08-05-03, 07:30 AM

I have been paying a PVR fee to Dish since 2000 when I bought my Dishplayer. Hasn't everyone who has a Dishplayer? Has Dish been getting $9.99 from me for 3 years and I didn't know I was being taken?

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 09:00 AM

There was a lofetime or 3 year deal for the dishplayer service best $99 I ever spent.

Joe Q

08-05-03, 09:18 AM

Something that I stated on the other board a couple of months ago, seems to apply to this situation.
Originally posted by Joe Q:
Mike:
He's not called "CHEAP CHARLIE" for nothing you know. He's a shrewd business man and he's not going to give away anything for nothing. (even if he really should)

He's always going to do what's in the best interest of HIS COMPANY first, and not always do what's in the best interest of his customers. That's just the way that he is.

He's an economics major and he does everything by the book. Even if that means turning his back and not taking care of people who have been loyal to him in the past, and have helped him get where he is today.

Jacob S

08-05-03, 12:51 PM

They may have charged for the PVR fees on the dishplayer but they also sold them for as cheap as $149 without having to get some special deal or commitment like some have to do now with getting the 501 or 508. They had it retail for that price for anyone to buy.

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 01:30 PM

What was typical retail with no fee as compared to discounted box price with monthly fee.

I dont remember the details...

DarrellP

08-05-03, 02:01 PM

I'm wondering if besides HD, will I get all the bells and whistles of TIVO.
:lol: :icon_lol: :rolling: :icon_lol: !rolling :uglyhamme

That will be the day!

Jacob S

08-05-03, 02:08 PM

They never offered a lifetime subscription with the receiver but later offered subs a $99 deal in which was originally supposed to be lifetime but ended up being only about 2 or 3 years of service for that price.

xgrep

08-05-03, 02:11 PM

I was already considering switching from SBC DSL and E* to ComCast ... just waiting to see if they had an interesting enough offer. And now they do. I might not have switched, but this kind of nonsense - and the certain knowledge that there will be more, much more - pushed me over the edge.

So for exactly what I'm getting now with E*, plus a couple more channels, plus faster internet (1.5M instead of 384K), I'll pay $5/mo more (I do get to pocket about $120 total worth of savings during the promotion period, but I didn't consider that in my calculations). So there's my DVR fee, you say, except that I'm getting a bit more for my money, plus at least the possibility that I'll be dealing with a company that doesn't constantly come up with such customer-losing schemes. And since I still own my E* gear, if I ever get pissed off with ComCast, I could re-sign up as a new E* customer when a great promotion comes along! :-)

Congratulations, Charlie, I know you'll enjoy your parachute as your stockholders battle it out with the lawyers during the Ch.11 proceedings.

As for the rest of you existing E* chumps .. er .. customers, face it, you'll pony up the $5/box/mo because ... well, because you will. And Charlie knows it. Go ahead, prove him wrong. Defect. You won't.

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 02:28 PM

I thought Comcast would take your equiptement for the discount. What did you do give them a 1000 that was broke with no card?

Jacob S

08-05-03, 03:08 PM

Cable companies do not always go for the satellite hardware, but try to get customers period whether they have satellite or not or want you back as a customer. Some of the deals to switch over gave from $200 to as much as $400 when you gave them your satellite gear and they threw it away (at least the dishes). If they were smart they would at least sell it on ebay but maybe they do that and we dont know it or sell it to certain people.

HTguy

08-05-03, 03:33 PM

:listenup:

Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it.

The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too.

There will certainly be UPG Promos for existing customers. In fact JD announced that the current "PVR UPG" promo will change next month.

Say what you will about Charlie, he likes to compete with DirecTV & the cable companies. E* prices itself under them whenever they can. The PVR721 is probably one time they really failed & the demand for it has thus been a disappointment. They seem to have learned something from that & they will now be bringing the DVR921 for a lot less than anticipated.

You just have to factor the $5mo over the number of years you will use the product. You could use a DVR for over 3 years before you exceed what it would cost to get a PVR508 for $199 on the standard promo today. 5 years if you actually paid the $299 MSLP (which nobody does anyway.) Of course, if you are an AEP sub like many of us here you pay no fees. So it's also an inducement to get more programming that will succeed with some people.

If you really think Charlie, his executive team & all his bean counters are stupid it will be interesting to see what you think a year from now.
:imwith:

xgrep

08-05-03, 03:34 PM

I thought Comcast would take your equiptement for the discount. What did you do give them a 1000 that was broke with no card?Ha ha :-).

Actually, they never mentioned taking the satellite gear, and I wouldn't have given it even if they offered. Can't figure out how that would be a business they'd want to be in, but you never know.

x

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 04:15 PM

Lots of cable companies take ands crush DBS receivers to discourage people from returning to DBS.

TimL

08-05-03, 04:20 PM

And how is that supposed to discourage them? If they really want to go back to DBS, nothing is stopping them..

Anthony

08-05-03, 04:26 PM

Dear Mr. Ergen,

While I won't begin to try to understand your business case for the DVR fees, I can see how it may be appealing to new subs. All I ask is that you don't forget your loyal current subs. I know that, to increase subscriber growth, the best deals go to the newbies. This doesn't mean that those of us who enjoy having Dish also enjoy watching the new subs get all the
good deals. Throw us a bone every once in a while and we'll take it and go back to doing whatever it is we normally do. Not being nice creates a lot of barking. Just take a look at the DBSTalk thread - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17141 Almost 17,000 views and over 400 replys. All of it a negative response to your upcoming DVR Fees. Time to throw the bone!

Chris Freeland

08-05-03, 05:32 PM

DanielD

08-05-03, 06:01 PM

I WAS going to buy a 921. Not now...

Bob Haller

08-05-03, 06:18 PM

About cable buying DBS boxes. They figure if you cancelled service, and they often take the receivers and dish that you will not qualify as a new sub so going back will be coistly and thus discourage churn. Nobody likes churn not even cable.

Lyle_JP

08-05-03, 06:18 PM

Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it.

The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too.

The key phrase there is "new subs". All us people who are pissed off... we're current subs. There will be no hardware subsidies for us, no free or near-free receivers, but we'll still get stuck with the DVR fee for our premium upgrades.

As for the arguement "the Dishplayer had a fee", I'd like to point out that the Dishplayer, like Tivo and UltimateTV, had a third party involved in the software end of things, in this case Microsoft. With these Dish DVRs, the only "service" they're really providing is what they already provide, namely a 7-day program guide. But now they'd like to charge us a monthly fee for it. :nono:

HTguy

08-05-03, 07:47 PM

The key phrase there is "new subs". All us people who are pissed off... we're current subs. There will be no hardware subsidies for us, no free or near-free receivers, but we'll still get stuck with the DVR fee for our premium upgrades. Wrong.

Someone heard that the DVR510 has a MSRP of $299 and started this uproar with the idea that current subs will have to pay this plus the DVR fees. Well, it's true that if they have them on the shelf at Sears in a few weeks and someone who doesn't know better buys one over the counter he will be in for a surprise.

But there will certainly be Upgrade Promos so existing subs so that they can get newer DVRs for a considerable discount especially if its tied to a programming comittment.

Look at it this way:

On the current FREE DISH Promotion a new customer can get a $149 DP301 system for free with a 12mo agreement for at least AT50 or he can pay $200 diference for a PVR508.

On the current PVR UPG Promotion an existing customer can get a PVR508 for $199 with a 12mo agreement for at least AT100.

The only real difference is AT50 vs AT100 to qualify.

Next month a new customer can get a DVR510 "free" under the same terms.

So why wouldn't an existing customer get a comperable deal when they amend the PVR UPG Promo like Jim said they would?

Not that you necessarily want a DVR510 anyway. But with the fee policy we can anticipate the same structure of pricing on the 522 & 921.

Got it?

pjm877

08-05-03, 07:49 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it.

The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So they are going to give me a 921 for FREE... and at the end of... lets say... 18 months, it is mine to do whatever I want to... and I too want to be able to replace my HDD when it goes bad..... and to get your deal I have to leave DISH... wait awhile... then come back as a new sub... I don't think so... DISH you reading this....

I think I would do the RETAIL and no fee's.... thanks you very much... and as to install... to do it the way I did it would cost in the 100's... none of this wires along the outside of the house... put the switch in the attic and the wires down the walls...

Cable is starting to look better and better each day... now if they have a dual tuner PVR/DVR Box, I think I am there.... bye bye DISH...

Lee L

08-06-03, 06:30 AM

DarrellP

08-06-03, 03:00 PM

HTGuy must work for Dish, he just doesn't "get it".

I don't care about getting a subsidy or cheaper equipment. I don't want to pay a DVR fee, PERIOD. Dish's equipment is not good enough to justify a DVR fee and probably never will be, plus they don't pay anyone for the rights to this technology, so where is the justification to charge more than TIVO?

HTguy

08-06-03, 04:10 PM

HTGuy,

All we are doing is speculating here and unless you have inside info, you don't "know" there are any upgrade deals coming. In the past, when E* told the existing sub about a great "upgrade" deal it was no better than what Joe Blow off the street got and usually much worse.

They announced the 921 pricing 17 days before the DVR fee. Is it your speculation that in that time, E* completely changed their pricing strategy? If so, why havent they even mentioned to Scott that the 921 would not be as much as they announced on the Tech Chat?Well, I know there will be "enhancements" to the PVR UPG Promo that ends 8/31 because JD said so on the chat and they put it in the memo they emailed me the other day.

And why, prey tell, should an existing sub expect a better deal than Mr. Blow gets off the street? He was like Mr. Blow is once, wasn't he? And he got a new cust promo then that cost E* $$$s didn't he?

I guess you think DISH should just hand out new hardware everytime someone wants the latest & greatest. How long do think they'd stay in business with that policy?

BTW, the proposed 921 price they mentioned on the tech chat (which most of us knew anyway) was given by the VP of engineering. He is often unaware of what the marketing team is up to which has led to similar misunderstandings.

I expect that when the "DVR921" ships it will have the $999 MSRP just as the DVR510 has an announced $299MSRP. I just don't expect that any potential 921 owner will have to pay that.

And I think that once you get the facts from the horse's mouth on upcoming chats you will realize that all this uproar was based on incomplete & wrong information.

Jacob S

08-06-03, 04:48 PM

And for those that already got the PVR UPG deal that wants a larger hard drive or two tuners in one receiver have to pay a fee even if they were to pay retail price for the receiver? Those that done got the deal would be out of luck. They should allow one to trade in a receiver towards a new or remanufactured receiver that is more up to date. I guess people could just sell the receiver instead of trading it in to make up for some of the hardware cost instead in which may be a better choice anyways.

DarrellP

08-06-03, 05:21 PM

I'll gladly pay $1k for a 921 IF THERE ARE NO DVR FEES ASSOCIATED WITH IT, otherwise, Sorry Charlie, you may as well throw it overboard and make a boat anchor out of it.

Ken_F

08-06-03, 06:56 PM

Dish's equipment is not good enough to justify a DVR fee and probably never will be, plus they don't pay anyone for the rights to this technology, so where is the justification to charge more than TIVO?In the other 921 Q&A thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=138276&goto=postid), Dish indicated that it would be offering guide information (possibly 9 days) for local DTV/HDTV channels received with an antenna. For me, at least, this service would justify $4.99/mo.

However, I still would not pay $4.99-$9.99/mo for Dish's PVR service, as it exists today.

Darkman

08-06-03, 07:00 PM

Do not forget - the more subscribe - the less DVR service fee will be,
With "Subscirbe it ALL" - the FEE is waved - NO FEE at ALL :)

Bulk discount - so to speak i suppose :D

Bob Haller

08-06-03, 07:04 PM

And I think that once you get the facts from the horse's mouth on upcoming chats you will realize that all this uproar was based on incomplete & wrong information.

If E were smart there will be lots of backpedling, stating you miss understood, and things like that.

Considering the hatred or extreme dislike this fee generated.

Mark Holtz

08-06-03, 07:16 PM

I thought I might bring up one point that noone else has brought up... the cost of a DVR for an existing customer. Everyone knows that the best deals are when you sign up, so we can't take that into account. But, what about Joe subscriber who already has an account?

Here's the pricing I got online for EXISTING customers (and remember, a stock HDVR2 comes with a 40GB hard drive and two tuners):

Orbitsat - Hughes HDVR2 (http://dtv.orbitsat.com/product.asp?PID=HDVR2) - $199.95
Orbitsat - Hughes HDVR2 upgraded to 105 Hours (http://dtv.orbitsat.com/product.asp?PID=HDVR2-105HR) - $399
Orbitsat - Phillips DSR-7000 upgraded to 220 Hours (http://dtv.orbitsat.com/product.asp?PID=DSR7000-220HR) - $549

ExpertSatellite - DirecTivo (http://www.expertsatellite.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=51) - $249

ValueElectronics - HDVR 2 (http://www.valueelectronics.com/directv_sys.htm) - $239
-> Add $250 for 120MB hard drive upgrade

RapidSatellite - Hughes HDVR2 (http://www.rapidsatellite.com/detail.aspx?ID=82) - $269
RapidSatellite - Hughes HDVR2 upgraded to 105 Hours (http://www.rapidsatellite.com/detail.aspx?ID=205) - $499

How about Dish Customers? Lets see what they have in the PVR department:

Dish Depot - 508 (60 Hours, Single Tuner) - $279
Dish Depot - 510 (80 Hours, Single Tuner) - $299
Dish Depot - 522 (80 Hours, Dual Tuner) - $???
Dish Depot - 721 (90 Hours, Dual Tuner) - $529

These prices are from various Internet dealers, and may or may not including shipping and handling.

So, for the price of a single tuner DVR from Dish, we have have a dual tuner DVR from DirecTV with, as stock, comes with a smaller hard drive plus a one year commitment to programming at Total Choice or above. But that DVR can easily be upgraded, while Dish's DVRs hard drives are not upgradable at all.

And Dish wants HOW MUCH for a single tuner DVR service fee? :hurah:

rtt2

08-06-03, 08:07 PM

The so called "PVR UPG" promo - is that an abbreviation or a computer code E* uses? What I am trying to understand is if I call up looking for this deal what do I ask for. Do I say P-V-R U-P-G or ...........?

xgrep

08-06-03, 10:20 PM

:listenup: Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it. :imwith:You're making the situation far more complicated than it is, and it's you who don't get it. For me, the decision had nothing to do with anything as clever as figuring out why Charlie's move is such a reasonable deal for E*. It's a simple question of arithmetic and my monthly bill.

I currently have two receivers and subscribe to my locals and one int'l a la carte. My monthly bill (less PPVs if any) comes to $26. I planned to get a 921 and add DiscoveryHD (and the occasional HD PPV), and eventually a 5xx.

Under the currently proposed DVR fee, I would see my monthly bill go up by $20 just for the DVR fees. That's just way too much. Maybe if I were already on a big package like AEP, where there would be no increase, or AT150 with a $10 total bump, the difference wouldn't be that much. But I can't "throw away" $20 a month because Charlie knows he can get away with it. I didn't cut the competition any slack on this just because I'm annoyed by E*. I priced out D*, Comcast, and a couple of other options, and until Charlie showed up with the $20 hit, E* was about even with Comcast. Now it's a no-brainer.

What about this am I "not getting"?

x

Karl Foster

08-07-03, 12:21 AM

The absolute killer to me is the PER RECEIVER DVR fee. Did they do NO research when they came up with this plan? Do they not see the competition chrages per account, not per receiver? Hloly crap!

I know HTGuy will justify this somehow, but this is just a plain stupid move on their part. An AT50 subscriber with two DVR's will double his bill just in DVR fees and additional STB fees. I admit I pay an obsene amount for UTV service ($9.95 per month), but it covers all three of my UTV's, and I only paid $39 per box for the first two that I orders - as an existing customer. If they are going to charge a DVR fee - lets see some real software improvements, and make it a per-account rather than per DVR fee. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it is just a plain old dumb idea.

Lee L

08-07-03, 07:15 AM

HTGuy,

I never meant to say that I expected the same deal as a new sub, I have no problem with that. I was referencing the past "deals" on 508's where E* would say, "since you have been such a good long term customer with a high level package, come buy this 508 for the extra special price of $199." In fact, any current sub could get that even if they subbed to AT50 for 6 months. Even worse when they tried to act like they were giving DishPlayer owners a great deal on a 508 as goodwill for the problems and in fact it was the very same deal Joe Blow with a 301 and AT50 could get.

Here is the way I see it, maybe you can tell me different. On the Tech Chat, the price of $999 for existing subs was announced, 17 days later they said new DVR's will have a fee of $10 a month. For an existing sub, the 921 will now be as much as $1359 for the first 3 years, no?

Oh, and BTW, I never got a receiver at more than a tiny discount. I paid $450 for a 4500, 3500 and Dish 300 in 1996 or 1997, bought DishPlayer one and a Dish 500 in 99 for the full price at the time of $299 or $399 IIRC, bought DP 2 a couple of months later for $249. In early 2001 I Bought a 6000 for the low low price of $549 on the web and managed to snag an 8VSB adapter for $129. In 2002 I actually managed to get a free SW64 from E* because of the locals on 61.5 deal, then I bought an 8PSK adapter earlier this year for $49 when it was looking like ESPN-HD would be coming to E* and they had the thing on sale the month before ESPN was supposed to launch (interesting timing there) and after all the adapter was what was needed to get "all the new HDTV programming from Dish Network." So there you go, $1825 worth of dish network equipment over a little more than 5 years and I have always had at least AT100, HBO and SHO and have done all of my own installation. Currently I have AT150, locals, supers, SHO, and HBO, have 3 recievers hooked up and pay just a touch under $100 a month and will still have to pay $4.95 a month for the DVR fee since I don't have AEP.

I guess that is the crux of the issue for many is the nickel and diming and recent changes in strategy causing us to buy new equipment then being told we are getting a good deal when we can tell by the feeling in our rear what is really happening. Please forgive me if I am a little hesitant to beleive that things will all work out in the end without some evidence to the contrary. Hopefully, they will address some of this stuff on the Charlie Chat and I will be all wrong and we will all get a good deal. If so, I will be more than happy to come on here and tell you that you were right and I was way wrong about it.

Jacob S

08-07-03, 09:08 AM

Charlie would say "If you can afford the DVR you can afford the fee". Maybe we should ask "What would Charlie do?

xgrep

08-07-03, 03:00 PM

Not exactly on topic, but given that Comcast can only be considered a competitor to E* if they have an HD (or any) DVR in the works, a search on Google for motorola DCT-6000 turns up several articles, such as:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0503/cedaily030506.htm

And according to the Comcast web site, they are currently testing a DVR (presumably non-HD) in the Washington DC area:

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_1644.html

If the DCT-6000 actually ships before the 921, I can imagine there will be some number of people who will see Comcast as the HDTV leader, though I don't know how much content they carry in HD.

x

spanishannouncetable

08-07-03, 04:44 PM

Here's the pricing I got online for EXISTING customers (and remember, a stock HDVR2 comes with a 40GB hard drive and two tuners):

You didn't mention that the HDVR2 is available straight from Directv for $159 + s&h.

Just call 1-800-DIRECTV and use the offer code FFDVR :coolglass

HTguy

08-07-03, 05:10 PM

Here is the way I see it, maybe you can tell me different. On the Tech Chat, the price of $999 for existing subs was announced, 17 days later they said new DVR's will have a fee of $10 a month. For an existing sub, the 921 will now be as much as $1359 for the first 3 years, no?

...Hopefully, they will address some of this stuff on the Charlie Chat and I will be all wrong and we will all get a good deal. If so, I will be more than happy to come on here and tell you that you were right and I was way wrong about it. I am confident that when they address the concept of DVR fees on this & future Charlie Chats, which, of course, are directed to existing customers, they will explain the lowering of the equipment costs that the fees make possible.

I wouldn't be real surprised if they only discuss it in general terms Monday because 522s & 921s are some time away and 508s & 721s are still around.

Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees unless you run out & buy the first one you can find.

Charlie & his gang are trying to compete with cable & DirecTV. They know that in order to do that they have to be able to offer more HD content, more convenience features, lower pricing, or all of the above.I currently have two receivers and subscribe to my locals and one int'l a la carte. My monthly bill (less PPVs if any) comes to $26. I planned to get a 921 and add DiscoveryHD (and the occasional HD PPV), and eventually a 5xx.

What about this am I "not getting"?I'm sorry, xgrep, but what you are not "getting" is that E* is in the TV programming business. If all they are getting out of you is a couple of bucks a month for an occasional PPV you don't count for much with them. Their profit (after some time due to customer aquisition costs) is in the ATxx & premium movie packages. (LILs & INTLs are a break-even or loss used to attract customers for ATxx sales.)

Indeed, Part of the DVR fee scenario is to promote programming upgrades (from AT50 to At100 & from AT150 to AEP). It's not any different with DirecTV.

If you're intested in a PVR/DVR but don't want fees you better grab a 508 while you can get one. And if you don't intend to get AT50 or AT100 you're probably going to eat the $999 + fees on a 921.

Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.

Mark Holtz

08-07-03, 06:45 PM

You didn't mention that the HDVR2 is available straight from Directv for $159 + s&h.

Just call 1-800-DIRECTV and use the offer code FFDVR :coolglassI went strictly with the consumer sites. I didn't include Dish's 508 promotion as well.

And, any DirecTV receiver has to be activated for one year of programming at Total Choice or above.

xgrep

08-07-03, 09:09 PM

[...] I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees [...] I would have to agree with you 100% on this, though I believe they could make their money elsewhere.

Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.I realize that you're at least partly right about this, but only partly. I'm at the far low end of the scale, but there are people at every point in between. The "big" existing customers (people with AEP and similar large packages) will fare well in this deal. The smaller you are, the worse you'll do. Some percentage of people who spend more than me, but not AEP, will be annoyed to some extent, and will be drawn away by a competitor. Perhaps they've done all the math and this is what they were figuring.

But given that I'm the kind of existing customer you'd think they'd want to attract more business from, they've really done very little on this score. I've seen virtually no free AT50 or anything else (once in 4 years, in fact) to entice me to upgrade. And now this.

Frankly, this could actually be a reasonable move on their part if they were to now come out and say "ok, we'll make it on a per-account basis, not per-receiver, and for 1 year, it'll be only $4.98, regardless of package, except free for AEP". Then they would look good, and I might actually think twice.

But the die is cast for me. For many reasons (such as faster internet), I'm leaving Dish. I will easily be persuaded to return when it's economically sensible to do so. I have relatively little emotional commitment in this (at least less than some others), and have generally been a very satisfied E* customer. Obviously not one who is important to them, as you have correctly shown.

x

xgrep

08-07-03, 09:19 PM

Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly feesI would have to agree with you 100% on this, though I believe they could make their money elsewhere.Sorry, I misread you. I think it would be great if what you say is true, but I'm not optimistic. I believe the 921 will have the same fee structure as all other DVRs.

x

Jacob S

08-08-03, 11:07 AM

The 921's will because it was said in an email that ALL future DVR's will have a DVR fee.

DarrellP

08-08-03, 11:41 AM

Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.
This is a really piss-poor attitude. I've been with Dish for 5 1/2 years and have had the mega $$ programming up until recently. I would consider myself a loyal Dish customer, starting with the 3000 and moving up to a 6000 2 1/2 years ago then added a 501 almost 2 years ago. I also bought the 8psk mod when it was on sale last May hoping to pickup the HD Package that has yet to materialize. I will be super pissed if I now have to fork out more $$ for a SuperDish or be required to commit to 1 year of programming to receive a Super Pooper Dish.

The reason I dropped my programming down to the AT50/locals/Encore package is because Dish has had so many price hikes in the last 3 years and I watch so little programming from Dish, it was a waste of money to be throwing at Dish each and every month. In return, Dish is going to treat me like a piece of pond scum and force me to pay $10/month "DVR" fricking fee? I don't think so. TV is nothing but brain rot anyway. I say again, if Dish implements the fee, I am a Dish EX-Customer, I don't need Dish to watch TV.

Thankfully the 6000 will still receive OTA without programming. If Dish ever turns off this feature, I'll really be pissed.

xgrep

08-08-03, 12:17 PM

TV is nothing but brain rot anyway.I would say this probably makes you not a typical customer, too :-).

x

HTguy

08-08-03, 04:28 PM

This is a really piss-poor attitude. I've been with Dish for 5 1/2 years and have had the mega $$ programming up until recently. I would consider myself a loyal Dish customer, starting with the 3000 and moving up to a 6000 2 1/2 years ago then added a 501 almost 2 years ago. I also bought the 8psk mod when it was on sale last May hoping to pickup the HD Package that has yet to materialize. I will be super pissed if I now have to fork out more $$ for a SuperDish or be required to commit to 1 year of programming to receive a Super Pooper Dish.

The reason I dropped my programming down to the AT50/locals/Encore package is because Dish has had so many price hikes in the last 3 years and I watch so little programming from Dish, it was a waste of money to be throwing at Dish each and every month. In return, Dish is going to treat me like a piece of pond scum and force me to pay $10/month "DVR" fricking fee? I don't think so. TV is nothing but brain rot anyway. I say again, if Dish implements the fee, I am a Dish EX-Customer, I don't need Dish to watch TV.

Thankfully the 6000 will still receive OTA without programming. If Dish ever turns off this feature, I'll really be pissed.

It's not personal, Darrell. It's business.

It doesn't matter what equipment you already have or what you get or don't get in the future because they aren't in the dbs equipment business any more than your local "cable company" is in the wire business.

There will be DVR fees with the 921. If you don't want any of the AT Pak channels you may not get any deal on it either. So why not just forget about the 921 & use your 6000 for HDs?

jcrash

08-11-03, 08:03 AM

I am f*&^in pissed! :mad:

I can't believe this s$%t when I first read it.

I don't know what else to say. If the 921 and 522 do end up having the fees, then Charlie can take his DVR's and Superdish, and shove them up his ass.

Waiting for over a year and a half for the 921, being called "Stan" on the tech chat, being told we have lots of extra cash to spend on HDTV so no big deal to buy the Superdish, and now this.

Un-F*@#$'ing believable!

PS. My apologies for my language, I know we are a family forum, but you wouldn't have wanted to hear what I was really saying as I scrolled through this thread.

I've subscribed for over 5 years. I've owned the first JVC DVHS, a Dishplayer, a 4000, a 508 and a 721.

I agree with this poster completely. I was going to be purchasing a 921 as soon as it came out, as I'll be purchasing an HDTV within the next couple months. If I am to pay $15/month just to park his receiver in my house, I can think of a much better place to park that receiver.

ocnier

08-14-03, 04:24 PM

Still HT Guy when you know your the no. 1 at being the no. 2 in this business then you know your an underdog. Well, a underdog makes concessions and acts accordingly in order to be no. 1. It's just common sense.
Point 1
The underdog doesn't charge a per receiver fee ABOVE its competition.
(I don't care how ya look at it, it's just plain crazy)
Point 2
The underdog doesn't either charge a fee or the same fee for a OS that is clearly not up to the caliber of its competition. (I mean if R&D costs are so freakin high then at minimum charge a lesser DVR fee.... like $.99, $1.99, $2.50... etc at least then your still maintain braggin rights over the competition. It's just a logical train of thought)

I mean come on, I think Charlie truly has overestimated the customer's threshold of pain in terms of monthly bill. This is just insanity especially since the PVR market has been growing steadily albeit slowly in the past 5 years.

HTguy

08-14-03, 06:27 PM

I mean come on, I think Charlie truly has overestimated the customer's threshold of pain in terms of monthly bill. This is just insanity especially since the PVR market has been growing steadily albeit slowly in the past 5 years.I don't think you have picked up on the fact that this is a marketing plan to greatly increase the number of new subscribers who get a DVR.

In the past, many new custs were interested in the technology but didn't want to pay so much for the hardware. Some of them came back later & did spend the money to upgrade.

Now any new customer can get the DVR for free & pay a monthly fee comperable to DirecTivo. This is going to drive millions of new customers to get a free DVR from E*.I agree with this poster completely. I was going to be purchasing a 921 as soon as it came out, as I'll be purchasing an HDTV within the next couple months. If I am to pay $15/month just to park his receiver in my house, I can think of a much better place to park that receiver. The only way you could spend $15mo is if you don't subscribe to any qualifying program package. That would mean paying the $5 access fee on top of a $10 DVR fee.

It's hard to believe that you would buy a DVR921 to do that even at the reduced price. Maybe you should consider the HD DirecTivo whenever it comes out because you would save $5mo if that's what you intend to do. Of course, by then, you will probaly miss out on some HD channels, too.

jrbdmb

08-14-03, 07:23 PM

I am confident that when they address the concept of DVR fees on this & future Charlie Chats, which, of course, are directed to existing customers, they will explain the lowering of the equipment costs that the fees make possible.

I wouldn't be real surprised if they only discuss it in general terms Monday because 522s & 921s are some time away and 508s & 721s are still around.

Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees unless you run out & buy the first one you can find.From today's retailer chat ...
The new promotion I will pass on is THE DISH DVR UPGRADE effective August 24 through January 31 2004. DISH DVR upgrade (for existing customers prior to November 15,2002).

The DISH DVR 510 will replace the 501/508 offer.

-----Just $199 with:--------
----------1 YEAR commitment to AT100 or higher-----------
-----------Enrollment in Credit Card Autopay-----------So the deal on the 510 is exactly the same as the current deal on the 508, except you get to pay the $5 or $10/mo. DVR fee.

What were you smoking when you wrote the above?? :rolleyes: