DVR 510 announced and monthly fee! [Archive]

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 12:27 PM

I just got this in amn email sent to me...

DishDVR Monthly Service Fees: The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. This fee should not be confused with the monthly $4.99 additional outlet fee that applies to each additional receiver on a non-DHP account. Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based. The monthly fee of the DishDVR 510 is listed below:

• $0.00 per month if the customer subscribes to America’s Everything Pak
• $4.98 per month if the customer subscribes to AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max
• $9.99 per month if the customer subscribes to AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus

platinum

07-29-03, 12:28 PM

Damn...9.99 for buggy software is steep... I'll keep my tivo anyday

spanishannouncetable

07-29-03, 12:52 PM

So many questions.

1) Does this only apply to the 510, or will existing 501 and 508 customers on the DHP start being charged as well ?

2) Is this only for DHP subscribers, or will those who own their DVRs (existing 501/508, new 510 owners) be charged, too ?

3) Are they planning to upgrade the software to the point that it matches the level of service a SA TiVo provides, or do they really think they can get away with charging $10 a month (TWICE what Directv DVR service costs) for the single-tuner no-frills package they offer now ?

boba

07-29-03, 12:52 PM

RAD

07-29-03, 12:53 PM

OK, am I missing something here? To me it looks like you get the 510 for free (I don't see where they are charging you for it) but you pay an extra monthly fee tiered to the package you have. On the digital home plan, if I remember correctly, you paid an extra $50 to upgrade a 301 to a 501/508 but no additional monthly charge. Since they mention only the 510 I doubt/hope that they would go back and start charging all the 501/508/721 owners out there. If they do they better be ready to offer a buyback program since noplace was it said that in the future you'd be charged extra to use a piece of hardware that you purchased. I think there may be just a bit of over reaction going on here.

rtt2

07-29-03, 12:57 PM

One of the biggest reasons I went with E* was because of the free DVRs and now I learn of this. It seems like DirecTivo will be the next system I get in my house. There will be no way I pay parity for buggy and clumsy DVR software with a poor user interface.
I am sad to see E* take this direction because I was planning on purchasing some of their new hardware but it seems like a poor place to invest in equipment now. Good thing I am a DHP subscriber I can just give them all the equipment back without any loss to me.
I just don't it does't Dish realize the vast superiority between them & TIVO? I am willing to put up with the difference if the service was free but paying for it is crazy. I also cannot justify all these new increases on my bill; the new satellite tax in Connecticut & and a DVR charge and any possible future programming increase if the ever happens to be one. Connecticut will now be charging a double tax one on programming (6%) and one on satellite (5%). Why is Dish starting to feel like cable all over again?

gcutler

07-29-03, 01:09 PM

Even if you pay full price for the DVR 510 the monthly fee will apply was the answer Jim DeFranco gave to a dealers question. The PVR 921 was not listed as a grandfathered unit so it looks like they plan on hooking the customer on that unit also. 501,508 & 721 owners will be grandfathered at zero monthly fees.

If they backstepped and said the DVR fee was only for those who recieved FREE hardware in that offering then I think most of us would quite down. But if I pay $200-$300 for a new 510, and have to pay PVR fee, there is nothing they can say to calm me down.

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 01:22 PM

Let's look at this again...

This is from Dish Networks own documentation...

The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to.

While this does not say the 522 and 921 it may indeed mean that those new receivers will have a monthly fee.

Also it says...
Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based.
So there it says these DVR fees are NOT promotion based, it has nothing to do with any promotion, even if you pay full price for the receiver you will still be paying the fee according to your programming selection.

Randy_B

07-29-03, 01:32 PM

This looks, and smells like one huge can of ugly worms for E*. Scenario: Customer owns a 501 or 508 and has the extended warranty. 50x breaks, will Dish RA with a 510 since 501/508 are OBE? If so, do they really think they will be able to force the former 50x owner into a perpetual monthly fee? I can hear about 30 state Attorneys General, screaming and champing at the bit already!!!!

If Dish is out there reading this, they better get the PR and damage control rolling right now. What is the GROUND TRUTH?

awax

07-29-03, 01:38 PM

Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.

platinum

07-29-03, 01:43 PM

Is the new receiver a dual tuner?

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 01:44 PM

No its the same unit as a 501 / 508 with just a bigger hard drive.

bishoptf

07-29-03, 01:45 PM

I wanted to buy a 921 as soon as one was available, the only reason I stayed with DISH was due to their lower price. If this is in fact true, then I guess I will have to wait for the D* HD TIVO unit. I bought one of the original 501's and have suffered through their "software enhancements" ( I'm on my third unit). I still have it but the software is not even close to as good as TIVO. I guess we will have to wait and see....

gcutler

07-29-03, 01:46 PM

Is the new receiver a dual tuner?

No, just a 501 or 508 with a bigger (120MB) hard drive

Wayne

07-29-03, 01:51 PM

Mark Holtz

07-29-03, 01:52 PM

Well its TRUE!

Here is the information from an ad slick a retailer sent me with the information.

Here are the monthly DVR fee is as follows:

• $0.00 per month if the customer subscribes to America’s Everything Pak
• $4.98 per month if the customer subscribes to AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max
• $9.99 per month if the customer subscribes to AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus

Plus note they are not calling it a PVR anymore, looks like they are dropping the PVR name in favor of the DVR name.:lol: Read the ad slick CAREFULLY! It says that this is for a "free" new two-room system. This sounds like a resurrection of the Digital Home Plan where you don't buy the system, you lease the system. I'm on a similar plan now, and there is a $9 surcharge for my PVR because I don't own the equipment. (It has come in handy.)

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 01:54 PM

Z'Loth, from the new Dish Network Retailer Rules (Issued today) it says the following

Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based.

It has nothing to do with the promotion, the picture shown above was an ad slick that was sent to me and I cut and pasted the 510 picture portion here. :)

platinum

07-29-03, 01:57 PM

Charlie's got a set of grape fruits, charging for a single tuner with buggy software.

SParker

07-29-03, 02:00 PM

Scott, so they wont start charging this for the 721 or the new 921?

pjmrt

07-29-03, 02:03 PM

I hope Dish seriously rethinks this - this makes their business management dept look in complete chaos. Dishplayers had a pvr fee, except some who took advantage of "lifetime" promotion which expired this year and may or may not be charged $10/mo regardless of programming, while 501/508 have free pvr regardless of programming but now a 508 with a larger harddrive will have a fee from $0 - $10/mo depending on what level of programming subscribed to. Its a nightmare just waiting to happen. I don't know if Dish has noticed, but they still have competition. Forget D* for just a moment. Good ole cable has been busy lately expanding channel selection and our local time warner is rolling out their own pvr capabilities (fee based, but then you don't have to shell our several hundred dollars in equipment).

Any chance this is just a "trial balloon" some dish executive floated up to see what the reaction would be?

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 02:10 PM

Scott, so they wont start charging this for the 721 or the new 921?

Correct those receivers are grandfathered.

Also note that while the documentation makes it look like all future DVRs from Dish will have this fee, there is NOTHING to indicate that the 522 and 921 with have a DVR fee.

djlong

07-29-03, 02:11 PM

If this is true, they just lost me as a customer.

I went with E* for a few reasons - the DP was the only PVR that recorded the MPEG stream, superstations let me solve conflicts since I only had one tuner and the programming was nominally cheaper.

Now, dual-tuner PVRs eliminate the need for the supers, there are more satellite PVRs (TiVo) and after my unbelievably bad experience with DP software, my mind is made up.

This isn't a threat (if this all pans out and isn't a bad trial balloon). This is a promise. I will be gone as soon as the HD DirecTivo plans materialize and I can afford it.

Neil Derryberry

07-29-03, 02:19 PM

I don't think this was a very smart move on E*'s part. everyone, vote with your wallet here - $5 or $10 is not worth the price unless E* has some compelling new features to add.

E* reads this forum... and they should take note here.

Lee L

07-29-03, 02:30 PM

This would be really funny if it wasn't such a stupid move.

JosephF

07-29-03, 02:31 PM

E* renames their product to DVR, reflecting what it really is... a Satellite based Digital VCR and at the same time says they will charge for an inferior product :-(

I've never had a problem with the "PVR" shortcomings of E* product, but I sure as #$%& have a problem with paying a monthly fee for it.

If they do this, they had better target some of this revenue to pay licensing fees for some of the true "PVR" features.

spanishannouncetable

07-29-03, 02:39 PM

Correct those receivers are grandfathered.

Also note that while the documentation makes it look like all future DVRs from Dish will have this fee, there is NOTHING to indicate that the 522 and 921 with have a DVR fee.

There's also nothing to indicate that the 522 and 921 WON'T have the fees. The info you posted stated that " The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. "

The 501, 508, and 721 are already on the market, so I guess they are "last" generation DVRs. However, the 510, 522 and 921 are all not available as yet, so are they not "newest generation" DVRs ? The 510 is just a 508 with 40 extra gig on the hard drive, yet it still counts as a "newest generation" DVR with no real improvements.

I betcha that if the bottom-of-the-line 510 is considered next-gen, the dual-tuner dual-output 522 and the dual-tuner HD 921 will indeed be subject to the same fee.

Mark Holtz

07-29-03, 02:42 PM

Z'Loth, from the new Dish Network Retailer Rules (Issued today) it says the following

It has nothing to do with the promotion, the picture shown above was an ad slick that was sent to me and I cut and pasted the 510 picture portion here. :):nono:Then obviously someone at Dish is "smoking crack". The fees for the standalone PVRs is $14.99, but DirecTivos have a monthly fee of $4.95.

:nono2:Look, I prefer to stick with Dish and replace my 501 with one with a higher drive. The software has less functionality than a Tivo, but we all knew that. If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.

Right now, because of the expiration of the promotion that I signed in September, 2001, I am now looking at a bill that jumped from $70.54 to $73.54. According to my bill:

"DishNet Local Package - $8.99"
(Sacramento locals+superstations)

"DishPVR Plan with AT150, 3 RCVRS - $62.99"
(One 501 PVR and two 301 receivers with non-usable guides. I'm on the Digital Home Plan)

And, the following note on my bill:
"Digital Home Plan - Digital Home Plan customers will pay a monthly rental fee based on the Plan and number of additional receivers selected. The rental fee is $5 for Digital 100 and 150 plans, $9 for the Digital 100 PVR Plan, $10 for the Digital 150 PVR Plan, $5 for each additional receiver(s) and is included in the Digital Home Plan Packages."

So, now, I'm staring at the DirecTV site. Their "Total Choice Plus" pacakge with locals is $39.99 per month, and lacks the following channels from the AT150:

* Encore Themes
* Encore West
* The Golf Channel
* The Movie Channel West
* Great American Country

And, some public interest channels will be missing. All those channels I hardly watch anyways. In addition, I will be giving up the supers pack, but since Buffy is gone and Enterprise isn't worth watching anymore, all that's left is Angel.

DirecTivo Fee: $4.95
Additional Receiver fees: 2x$5

So, right now, I can pay $55+tax and get about the same programming that I watch now. That same package I'm paying now is $72+tax from Dish. The only catch is that I have to purchase all of the equipment up front rather than lease it (Last I checked, around $400 for HDVR2+2 additional receivers+Triple LNB Dish+$100 for hard drive upgrade), and the installer will have to run new coax to my room for the second tuner.

I've hinted to my mom that this might just happen. Maybe it's time for me to prepare to get my facts together and then see if I can get my plan lowered. And, the only reason why I have DBS at all is to keep my mom happy, and that I hate comcast/at&t broadband.

scooper

07-29-03, 02:47 PM

I agree - I had thought about pressing the wife to get a 522 when they became available (as a replacement for my 2 current non-PVR's) - but this PVR fee for essentially a Digital VCR is saying "Forget it" - I've already got MPEG tuner cards in the PC's that can duplicate this function (just not as conviently) , along with the ability to save the programs to VCD / DVD when I get the DVD burner. As it is - I may see about getting a 50x ASAP if I want one at all.

If they are going to license the TiVO code - THEN the DVR fees could be understood, and I would consider a DVR upgrade.

James Hill

07-29-03, 02:50 PM

Could this be a two part move by Charlie's marketing department?

1) To see how a fee based 510 competes with DirecTivo with new customers?

2) To get the bad news out now so the average Joe forgets free PVR by the time the 921 comes out?

Personally, I think the move is taking one of E*'s big advantages off the table. D* could capitalize, so could cable.

I've got a feeling a lot of Dish 500's will be on E-Bay in January.

James Hill

gcutler

07-29-03, 02:50 PM

If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.

You really don't even need to wait for that. TiVo has pretty much given their blessing to upgrading the hard drives by the endusers, so right now you can take a DTiVo and have over 240 hours. So only those who don't want to open their case are limited to the current drive sizes.

check out www.weaknees.com or

http://www.weaknees.com/direct_tv_tivo.php on buying a preconfigured upgrade kit.
$750 for a brand new unit with 240 hours...
http://www.weaknees.com/tivo_philips_dsr7000.php
$450 to swap out original drive and add 2nd drive for 240 hours...

Obviously less $ for smaller drive upgrades...

Even orbitsat is selling new DTiVo systems with 220 hours for $550...

spanishannouncetable

07-29-03, 02:55 PM

Samsung is going to start shipping DirecTiVos with 2x and/or 3x the current 35 hr capacity any day now. 100+ hour capacity straight from the factory combined with a new subscriber discount is a good thing :)

beegfoot

07-29-03, 02:58 PM

Dish is grandfathering any 501, 508 and 721 sold before 9/1/03. After that, all DVR products will have a fee based on your programming. Everything Pak will be free, $4.99 for AT 100 and AT150, and $9.99 for AT50.

If they are going to charge for the DVR service, I was expecting the price to drop, similar to DTV's TiVo. But that was not announced on the chat.

I think this is a mistake for Dish.

John Corn

07-29-03, 03:03 PM

I certainly would think Dish would discount the receiver.

DarrellP

07-29-03, 03:11 PM

If Dish starts charging a PVR fee, I will sell mine, drop ALL of my Dish programming and stick to OTA with my 6000. The $5 extra receiver fee is already too much. Bye-Bye Charlie.

dinkster

07-29-03, 03:26 PM

John Corn

07-29-03, 03:31 PM

I'm with dinkster, whens the HD-TiVo due out?

spanishannouncetable

07-29-03, 03:35 PM

Hopefully before Christmas, but more likely after the first of the year.

Big_Dawg

07-29-03, 03:56 PM

OK. Let me get this straight (and somebody correct me if I'm worng) - E* has an advantage in the PVR (oops - DVR) arena in terms of subscriber numbers.

You can't go out and buy all the new DVR/HDTV equipment being promised by E*, D* is practically giving away DirecTivos, yet E* is announcing all sorts of tiered fees?! Looks to me like this is going to be pushing out a large number of subs out the door.

Somebody at E* has GOT to be a few french fries short of a Happy Meal!

OnAPublicComputer

07-29-03, 04:07 PM

True, the DVR fee sucks pretty bad for those of us who are current customers and plan to upgrade, however for a new customer the new Free Dish is a pretty good deal- a 301 and 510 FOR FREE (50$ install fee, $50 rebate fee). The details on the promo are in the public part of the retailer site: retailer.echostar.com Personally, I'd rather never have a monthly fee, but I'd bet the promo will get more NEW customers to take the DVR, and since Echo has said publicly that they believe that PVR (oh, excuse me DVR) customers churn less, they probably see it as a win for them.

Gunnyman

07-29-03, 04:08 PM

yep it's definitely NOT Tivo huh?

boba

07-29-03, 04:17 PM

For existing Directv customers www.directv.com/see/landing/dvro.html $199.00 I've seen posts for new Directv customers between $49 & $99.

Jeff_R

07-29-03, 04:17 PM

This makes my decision to switch to D* a few weeks ago very much worth it! I do miss my Dishplayer, but the added HD channels, the promise of a pretty cool (we hope) HD Tivo, I'm pretty glad I switched.

Sold the 6000 for a nice price on Ebay, sold the DP for a decent price, also. I'm actually in the positive for switching to Directv!

Jeff

Mike D-CO5

07-29-03, 04:17 PM

Maybe the new receivers will receive new software to make it do name based recording and wish lists, etc ,like tivo. Then and only then can Dish justify any kind of fee for their "DVR" service. The no fee was a big reason for people to buy Dish in the first place. If they go that route I see a lot of people who will just jump ship in order to get a good receiver that has 2 tuners and is solid with tivo features.

And just think, a few short months ago we were discussing eliminating the additional receiver fee as a way for Dish to make new market share. Instead of being a trail blazer and a leader in this they will now emulate Directv and their fees and now their name (DVR instead of PVR). This is the wrong way to go for the future. They better think twice about this change.

OnAPublicComputer

07-29-03, 04:30 PM

Most of the complaints ring true, but remember:

1- Existing customers who've bought a 501/508/721 will NOT pay a fee. So no one is going to be leaving Dish because their formerly free reciever suddenly has a monthly fee. Most customers won't even notice that something has canged because it won't effect them.

2- New customers will now get a free 120-gig (granted, Single-tuner) (D)VR for free. I'd bet a lot of people would be willing to pay a monthly fee if they paid NOTHING to get the receiver.

3- Essentially the only people getting screwed are: new customers who'd prefer to pay outright for the reciever and (really the only major group would be) existing customers looking to upgrade to a new/better PVR. This would be most of us, who will (probably) have to pay full (or nearly full) price for a new box AND pay the montly fee (which would suck for the 921 I'm wanting). While this is really not cool for us, I'd bet that the pool of people looking to do this (although disproportionally represented here) is probably fairly small given the overall customer base. Furthermore, if Dish lowers the price on new DVRs for existing customers as well to really low rates, I'd bet that they'd probably get more takers from Mr/Mrs "Average Dish 301 Owner" than annoyed Dish-techies leaving the company.

Note, from my position as an early-adopter looking to upgrade my 721/6000 combo to a 921 I understand that a new fee is really anooying, but for E*, it makes perfect business sense- we all know they focus on New Customers when it comes to equipment and this will probably be a great promo for them (just, unfortunately, not for us)

angiodan

07-29-03, 04:35 PM

I am f*&^in pissed! :mad:

I can't believe this s$%t when I first read it.

I don't know what else to say. If the 921 and 522 do end up having the fees, then Charlie can take his DVR's and Superdish, and shove them up his ass.

Waiting for over a year and a half for the 921, being called "Stan" on the tech chat, being told we have lots of extra cash to spend on HDTV so no big deal to buy the Superdish, and now this.

Un-F*@#$'ing believable!

PS. My apologies for my language, I know we are a family forum, but you wouldn't have wanted to hear what I was really saying as I scrolled through this thread.

Wolffpack

07-29-03, 04:37 PM

Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.

New to this forum, have never even seen any DISH products but been a DirecTV customer for > 5 years and DTivo since January.

Does the statement above mean you cannot search for programs to record based on title, or setup a "season pass" to record all occurances of a show like you can with Tivo? :eek2:

spanishannouncetable

07-29-03, 04:41 PM

I checked out the ad slicks on the retailer site here -

http://retailer.echostar.com/forms/2003adslicks/FreeDish/slicks_681_Q3_FreeDVR_1.pdf

According to the fine print, you get a 301 and a 510 FREE after rebate. This is not a DHP lease, you own the equipment. You are then obligated to keep the receivers for 2 years or penalties (up to $360 if cancelled in the first year, up to $180 if cancelled in the second year) kick in.

So with AT100 or AT150 you pay for programming + $120 in DVR fees + $120 in 2nd receiver fees over 2 years and the equipment is yours. Total $240 above the cost of the programming, $50 you pay up front rebated back to you.

With the DirecTiVo combo at Orbit or Expert, you pay $99 for a DirecTiVo/2nd room combo, then pay $60 in DVR fees + $60 in 2nd receiver fees in a year and their yours. $220 above the cost of the programming, $99 up front.

Maybe it's not such a bad deal after all, for new subs who want Dish Network and a DVR with little out-of-pocket change.

snagel

07-29-03, 04:44 PM

I just called Dish and discussed this thread with one of their CSR's. Although he was unsure as of yet because it has not really even out yet, I did direct him DBS Talk and to this particular thread in this forum.
Hopefully he will read this and then pass this along to his chain of command and they will see where this thread is going as of present. Hopefully then someone at Dish will post here and clarify this for us.

tampa8

07-29-03, 04:58 PM

D_Thomas

07-29-03, 05:30 PM

The only catch is that I have to purchase all of the equipment up front rather than lease it (Last I checked, around $400 for HDVR2+2 additional receivers+Triple LNB Dish+$100 for hard drive upgrade), and the installer will have to run new coax to my room for the second tuner.

ValueElectronics and Expert Satellite have been offering $99 specials that included HDVR2 DIRECTV DVR with TiVo receiver (or same unit manufactured for Philips) plus 1 or 2 additional receivers, plus round dish, plus installation, plus switch. You have to ask for the $99 specials since these are not always posted on the web sites.

The HDVR2 will work with either 1 or 2 tuners activated. But it is SO SWEET with both tuners running. So get a switch that will allow you to have 2 coax runs to the HDVR2.

I do NOT work for either of these companies, but I have purchased from ValueElectronics and they are excellent. Wendy was my sales rep.

More info is available on the TiVo Community Forum at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7 -- look at the DIRECTV Receiver with TiVo Forum for thread about "Value Electronics".

Chris Blount

07-29-03, 05:31 PM

FYI: Dish has been looking at this thread since it started.

Geronimo

07-29-03, 05:38 PM

And waht about DP oiwners. Somewhere I read "same as before". But it's currenyly up in the air.

Bob Haller

07-29-03, 05:42 PM

Well I WAS going to upgrade to a 522. This news has me $#@!^%# My wife is very tired of the bugs. I am sick and tired of stuff like this. It would be different if E produced a high quality name based PVR/ As described I will burn my pom poms.

What on earth are they thinking?

D gives name based recordings, with rock solid operation.........

SParker

07-29-03, 05:45 PM

Bob,

They aren't thinking! They better not get any bright ideas and start charging a fee like this for the 721. If they did it might tick me off enough to start looking at D* and I am very happy with Dish right now.

Well I WAS going to upgrade to a 522. This news has me $#@!^%# My wife is very tired of the bugs. I am sick and tired of stuff like this. It would be different if E produced a high quality name based PVR/ As described I will burn my pom poms.

What on earth are they thinking?

D gives name based recordings, with rock solid operation.........

Ken F

07-29-03, 05:55 PM

I will not pay $9.99/mo for the current functionality offered by Echostar DVR receivers. If they want me to pay $4.99/mo, they'll need to deliver technology more comparable to Tivo (ex: name based recording).

boba

07-29-03, 05:59 PM

Chris I hope DISH taking it all in this is one of the foolishest marketing errors they have made since the DISHPLAYER. It is contrary to their marketing of the PVR.

Bob Haller

07-29-03, 06:00 PM

Jeff_R

07-29-03, 06:20 PM

Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.

My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.

I GUESS THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT ON THE DISHPLAYER AND SAID WHY NOT:(:(:(

The Dishplayer was the first generation integrated PVR unit. They did it because there was nothing to compare it to. Anyone who wanted a perfect copy of a program to watch later had only one choice. Even then, the Dishplayer has a lot more functionality than the 5XX series recievers have. Many more features, easily upgradable HD, etc.

Gunnyman

07-29-03, 06:23 PM

Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.

My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.

I GUESS THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT ON THE DISHPLAYER AND SAID WHY NOT:(:(:(

Hehe doesn't the Dishplayer have more features than the PVR 501?

They lost their JD Power awards too didn't they?

Happy to be a new DTV customer I am
Gunnyman

thescrub

07-29-03, 06:25 PM

buy our 522, save $4.99 a month on a second receiver. It'll only cost you $9.99 a month. :(

xgrep

07-29-03, 06:34 PM

Thanks, Scott. Interesting news, indeed. I've had my eye on Comcast lately to replace both my DSL and E*, and it's pretty obvious which way news like this will influence me to go (Comcast is running a very tasty promotion in our area).

But what percentage of E* customers do I represent? Maybe less than 5%? They can probably afford to blow off another 10% of their customers before Charlie sinks the stock and gets the boot from the board (and he'll float off with a handsome parachute, anyway, so what does he care ...).

x

Chris Freeland

07-29-03, 07:22 PM

I will not consider a DVR510, however with the new 522 with two tuners and outputs for each tuner I can use it to replace both of my current receivers and the $4.98 DVR fee is a wash, since I would be dropping my 2nd receiver fee. I am still disappointed at this news, I was hoping to pay $4.99 less :shrug:

Bill R

07-29-03, 07:37 PM

Just when DISH is making some real headway in the marketplace against cable and DirecTV, the marketing department makes a decision that will likely reduce the number of customers that choose DISH Network as their provider.

The decision by the marketing department seems to be full of mistakes. First, the pricing model is all wrong. Given DISH's record of software problems and limited features on their new (and not so new) PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service. Second, even if DISH does get their act together on the software they should NOT price the service higher than their competition (NOTHING justifies that). A price that matches their competition could be justified only if the service gets as good as the competition (looking at the 721 compared to the DirecTV TiVo they are a VERY LONG way from that). Third, they are pricing the service higher than cable systems' DVR service (at least MY cable system). Given the current bundling of services by the cable companies (cable, internet, DVRs and, next year, telephone service) why would anyone in an area like mine (with good cable service) choose DISH Network over cable or DirecTV (which has a DVR that works MUCH better than ANY DISH PVR/DVR)?

DISH's marketing department REALLY needs to look at this decision and see if the market will really support it. Just looking at some of the comments on this and other forums, it sure looks like many current customers won't.

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 07:50 PM

Well said Bill!

I hope Dish is watching this (and I KNOW they are watching) and does a 180 on this idea.

The marketing department should be focusing on getting new customers and keeping current customers, not driving them all away.

gcutler

07-29-03, 07:55 PM

The decision by the marketing department seems to be full of mistakes. First, the pricing model is all wrong. Given's DISH record of software problems and limited features on their new PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service.

Their pricing model may have legitimately determined that they can't keep supporting a "Free DVR/PVR". But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW. So they are basically saying to existing customers "I know we've shown no reason, but trust us this time". The only people who might fall for it those who have not jumped to the DVR world. But for the rest of us it is like "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, Try to fool me 28 times Cut the Cr*p Charlie"

It would be one thing if the competition was as bad, but even surface investigation points to D*TiVo as obviously surperior/less expensive.

Bob Haller

07-29-03, 07:55 PM

Boy you can say that again! Marketing should all quit for even considering such a bone headed move..........

I am serious they should turn in their resignations and go work for cable where they belong!!!!!!!!!

Big_Dawg

07-29-03, 08:01 PM

But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW.

That's easy to fix.

OPEN UP THE BETA PROGRAM TO INDIVIDUALS OUTSIDE E*.

Duh. My .02.

Scott Greczkowski

07-29-03, 08:06 PM

Big Dawg had to change your Sig, no advertising in the forums, however you can post your ad in the classifieds areas. (Thanks for your understanding.)

Dish Network does indeed have Beta testers (I know I am one) unfortunately the other Beta Testers are bound by a NDA and can not talk about the tests.

Actually since I have been in the Dish Beta program I have been impressed with how its has been run. :)

Phil T

07-29-03, 08:09 PM

Existing customers who want to upgrade equipment will most likely not. :(

Mike123abc

07-29-03, 08:09 PM

It depends on the deal for the reciever. If a reciever costs $249 and they give it to your free and charge you $10/month, in 25 months you would have it paid for and you would be worse off under this deal (at 50 customer). If you pay $5/month (AT100) then it would take 50 months... over 4 years, you probably come out ahead on this because of the time value of money (you got the $$ in your pocket and give to dish slowly). You come out way ahead if you are AEP customer and pay $0. If you have AEP a couple years then drop down you still are ahead.

IF you get the 921 for $750 instead of $999 the above applys too. Now if they are going to charge $999 for the 921 that will make a lot of people upset since they expected to pay $999 and no fee.

RAD

07-29-03, 08:21 PM

If Dish made the $4.99 charge ONLY for new DVR's that are 'leased' vs. purchased I don' that it's that bad. But if you have to purchase the box, then pay a monthly subscription for programming, then an additional receiver fee then the DVR charge that's an idea that should have been shot down before it even left the meeting room.

Between garbage like this, the 6000 receiver problems that occured last week, the never ending delay on the 921 (will they give that away for free and charge only $4.99 a month?) and no definite date for SuperDish and new HD why don't they just send everyone the phone number for DirecTV in their next bill.

Mike123abc

07-29-03, 08:25 PM

Bob Haller

07-29-03, 08:34 PM

HO HO D phone number in next bill. Kinda on target lately.

Now were told this is a marketing decision. Evidently they are trying to encourage more folks to buy better packages. Problem is this appears more like a hammer to squash customners rather than something nice to encourage the purchase.

Looks more like a beancounter decision to me, looking out for the bottom line profit only while ignoring the big picture.

You know comcast here advetises the channels like goodlife they carry that sat doesnt. If marketing we really smart they would get those missing channels added, theres not a lot ands numbers sell.

Getting all subs a easy cheap upgrade path would help too.

Penalizing customers makes them want to leave, is THAT what they want?

I think this goes back to the horrid treatment E has given DP owners.

If they tolerate it why not?

boba

07-29-03, 08:49 PM

toad57

07-29-03, 08:52 PM

This new DVR fee is a part of Echostar's secret Profit Prevention Program.

DTV

07-29-03, 09:02 PM

Hopefully before Christmas, but more likely after the first of the year.

And at a rumored price of $599.

DTV

07-29-03, 09:03 PM

DTV

07-29-03, 09:06 PM

So does the new DVR fee cover all your DVR's or just one? If it's $5-15 per unit then Dish has problems. It's bad enough to charge for their buggy software but at least DirecTV only charges you the PVR fee once and it covers all your DirecTivos.

Chris Freeland

07-29-03, 09:08 PM

gcutler

07-29-03, 09:08 PM

That's easy to fix.

OPEN UP THE BETA PROGRAM TO INDIVIDUALS OUTSIDE E*.

Duh. My .02.

But do they have the manpower to fix all the problems in a reasonable amount of time, and will they after they start charging? How many will stick around to find out???

csschrot

07-29-03, 09:16 PM

Ok, I may be in the minority on this. For new customers I don't have a problem with this. Most of the new customers come in and are not happy with the cost of getting a DVR (PVR). This may help pull in new customers that would walk away or just took the 301 but wasn't happy about it.

However with that said. I think that the existing customer that buy a add on receiver or buy one as a replacement shouldn't be charged the monthly fee. I doubt that Dish will drop the price enough to justify a monthly fee. For example the 921 is suppose to be $999. AT that price I shouldn't be paying any monthly fee!!!!!

reedl

07-29-03, 09:20 PM

This is cross posted from the other site. I just wanted evertybody to see what a long time very high dollar E* subscriber (the type of customer that E* I am sure wants to keep) has to say about this terrible "idea":

Even though I technically would not pay anything using the current price points (I currently have the Everything pack), I think this is probably the stupidest thing that E* has ever done in the history of the company if the following assumptions are true:

1) The monthly price is per unit.

2) The initial price of the unit is the same as before (in other words, you still need to pay $300 for a receiver anyways)

3) It goes on forever on the monthly fee.

The only way this could possibly be acceptable to most people is to do one of the following:

1) Make the price a monthly charge (pro-rated as before), but make the receiver price lower. In other words, the receiver is either free or a token $20.00 or the like. This means you basically rent the receiver. Allow a "buyout" (kind of like a lifetime subscription) which gives you receiver without monthly fees.

2) Make the charge per account instead of per receiver. Even this is pretty stupid because most people only have two or three receivers, and this would not save them money.

E* have prided itself on having PVR(no wait DVR's) that are free of montly fees.

In other words, given what we know right now, E* is making the biggest mistake in their history. Never mind the buggy software, never mind the two dishes required for all locals, this by and large going to scare away many potential customers. When they see the monthly fees of $15 per each additional receiver they will not choose to go with E* but instead go with cable which is "only" $8.99 per additional digital outlet or free for additional analog outlets which typically gives you the basic cable channels that most people watch anyways.

E* is shooting themselves in the foot on this one, and had better examine its strategy if it wishes to compete in the marketplace, because I would bet anyone a nice dinner somewhere that this will lower E*'s rapid increases in customers that have existed for many years. People do not like to be "nickel and dimed" and this is exactly what E* is doing here.

Even the DP was a price per account no matter how many of them you had activated.

All I can say is that this will increase the prices on used 50x receivers for sure.

(End of Rant, sorry!)

Reedl

ocnier

07-29-03, 09:54 PM

As many of you know there has been much excitement by many members over the hopefully fall/holiday release of the PVR 921 and many other soon to be released receivers. I personally was very pleased about it (in fact totally stoked). However, my hopes and admiration for E* has gone down the tubes after reading the news in the pvr forum that E will start charging PVR monthly fees like tivo. I will not post a rant about this because the other thread pretty sums it. I offer this to E* if they are totally about the allmighty dollar and not the customer: "I offer a compromise"-

How about instead of charging $10 a month in DVR fees for equipment I will buy. How about instead, changing the fee structure so that it reads $10 a month only if the customer drops below the top 100 or 150 package tiers even past contract time for new/existing customers. This I think is way more reasonable than the everything pak considering that top 100 and 150 customers account for more than 63% of E* customer base. I think this would be a win win situation for both parties considering that the majority of DVR customers remain happy with costeffective bills and that fact that E* can ensure obeisance of it's customer base for main stream programming packages that would not decline below a certain leve. The present customer plan puts $4.99 a month charge for top 100 & 150 package customers. I am presently with D* (long football story), but I was looking forward to switching back to E* with baited breath until I read the DVR posts today. The only reason I don't post this to the PVR side of this forum is because I think this affects E* as a whole, because lost customers mean higher rates and eventual bankruptcy for the company. Please submit any thoughts on the matter. :eek2:

SParker

07-29-03, 10:10 PM

You know guys this is really going to make me re-think my future 921 purchase. If I am going to pay $999 and on top of that $4.99 a month FORGET IT!

DISH NETWORK PLEASE RECONSIDER THIS IDEA!!!!!!!!!! :nono2:

tampa8

07-29-03, 10:13 PM

If Direct is not charging for TC+ customers, I would go so far as to say Dish could not charge for Top 150 & America's Choice, charge $4.99 for top100, and $9.99 for Top 50. But, with an exception. If you buy the top of the line 921, then either no charge at all, or at least not for Top 100 and up. If you are buying the 921 you are in it for the long haul in most cases. They will get your business for several years. I would think Dish would want to keep that customer and not nickel and dime them to death. I cannot prove it, but I suspect most anyone getting a 921 will be subscribing to Top 100 and above, maybe Top 150 and above.

gwynnebaer

07-29-03, 10:20 PM

What I see happening is fairly simple to decipher:

1. Echostar, like its rivals DTV and cable, put a premium on new customers. Existing customers do not drive up stock or make the company grow; new customers do. That means that a business decision that is disadvantageous to existing customers, even to the point of defection, is acceptable (I'll explain why in a moment). This point can be validated in many ways, such as hardware upgrade costs for existing customers, etc.

2. New customers of Echostar are one of three categories:
a) cable subscribers who know everything about monthly fees but want free hardware
b) DTV customers who have Tivo service, and are accustomed to the monthly fee for listings
c) DTV customers who don't have Tivo service and don't have a frame of reference; however, when comparing DTV Tivo service to Echostar DVR service, they will see that both charge a monthly fee (this levels the playing field).

Bring it together:

Echostar knows that regardless of the category you are in, if you are new customer, you will probably not care too much about the new fee. Since Echostar's primary goal is to bring in new customers, this brings the new customers in with a revenue stream that they will live with either because they already have lived with it (Tivo converts), or because they want the hardware for free (cable subscribers), and think they are getting ahead by paying a small fee over a long period of time. Simple math will prove them wrong, but that's an established business practice that most consumers fail to notice.

So what happens if existing customers who feel robbed become indignant and leave? Where will they go? The majority would not fall back to a scheme that does not involve digital time-shifting (ie, fall back to no PVR/DVR features), so that leaves them heading back to cable with Tivo or DTV with Tivo. They will now pay a fee just like Echostar customers will.

So, in another year, those defections will get sick of whatever it was they switched to, and forget the bad times at Echostar but remember the good ol' days, and consider switching back. Now, again, after paying a fee for Tivo for a year, paying Echostar's fee isn't such an indignant shock, and they switch back and pay the fee anyway.

And lo, Echostar has a new customer again (well, almost new, but close enough).

The moral in case you're still reading at this point: You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. My advice is to stick with Echostar but fight for the features you want to see. At least feel like you're getting your money's worth.

rh26

07-29-03, 11:04 PM

So, in another year, those defections will get sick of whatever it was they switched to, and forget the bad times at Echostar but remember the good ol' days, and consider switching back. Now, again, after paying a fee for Tivo for a year, paying Echostar's fee isn't such an indignant shock, and they switch back and pay the fee anyway.

And lo, Echostar has a new customer again (well, almost new, but close enough).

Except for one fact...if I switch to a TiVo product, I'll never want to go back to inferior (features and quality) Dish DVRs!!

BTW, I just sent this to Dish Network via their web site...

I have just read on dbstalk.com that you have a new receiver the DVR510. A bunch more disk space is great (I have a 501 and the disk is always full). Great news!

Then I read further that you are instating a monthly fee for the DVRs (I understand my current 501 is exempt).

Well, I *had* been saving for a 921 as soon as it came out but apparently buying one (at $999!) will force me to invest another $5 per month (forever!). No thanks!

When I fired the cable company, I chose Dish Network for one reason, a no monthly fee PVR. DirectTivo is (in my opinion) a better product but I decided I could live without some features to avoid a monthly fee. Also, recently my cable company has been trying to entice me back (their technology looks good but they cost more money per month).

Well, as near as I can tell sometime around when the 921 comes out I'll be looking at my HD DVR (TiVo) options from DirecTV and my local cable deals. If Dish still has a monthly fee on PVR/DVRs at that time it's probably time to say "Goodbye Dish".

What a shame...

Robert

Mark Lamutt

07-29-03, 11:16 PM

Agreed with everyone above. This is a just plain stupid move, and if it happens, the masses will leave. Including me.

I was the first one to preorder the 921 from Dish Depot. I'll be happy to give Mark my $50 to walk away from that deal to walk away from a $10 a month (in my case) fee.

I've been a big Dish supporter for quite a while now. If Dish follows through with this plan, no more...

rtt2

07-29-03, 11:51 PM

Transcript of Q1 2003 EchoStar Communications Corp. Earnings Conference Call (Relevant Part):

KARIM ZIA: Charlie, along those lines, do you envision a point -- maybe over the next year -- where with the PVR, whether the tipping point is the 522 or some other break in the cost curve, where you make a big long-term bet on, you know, shifting your whole marketing emphasis to that product?

CHARLIE ERGEN: I don't think you'll see us do that. I think the products complicated. I don't think it's for everybody. People who have PVR love it, whether they have a TIVO or a cable box or ours, but it's not for everybody. There's people who -- there's people who just -- I mean, this -- we are a country where when you go in somebody's house, the clock on the VCR is blinking.

And a PVR is more complicated than that. So you have to be careful about -- about trying to put that in everybody's house. So -- and it does have more service calls, it is a moving part. It's -- you know, it -- it has the technology is changing rapidly, so I think -- I think that we have a lot of upside on PVR and we don't charge for it. For example, everybody else charges for it. There's an opportunity for us to charge for PVR.

We're looking seriously at that we think that could make some sense under certain circumstances. And clearly it's a stickier customer, at least so far. So we think there's some opportunity there. But by no means do I think it's going to be the majority of -- of our industry customers for the foreseeable future.

MikeW

07-30-03, 12:50 AM

At least this topic got the forum active. Things have been pretty quiet for a while.

Mark Holtz

07-30-03, 12:56 AM

:lol: No, that's not why PVRs haven't taken off Charlie.

Despite bar codes, VCR+, and automatic setting clocks, the VCR is hard to set up. Combine that with a cable box, and if you're lucky, your VCR can control the cable box. If you're unlucky, you may have to program a timer into the cable box.

In comparison, with a Dish PVR, you just select a program in the guide and press select or record. You're done.

There may have been also a overestimation of how many people "time-shift" programming. People may just use the VCR to play back movie rentals.

The problem with the PVR product is the price tag plus the monthly fees. A VCR or DVD player costs less than $100, which is the same price as a hard drive in a PVR. Add in the necessary hardware, and the DVR costs 3x as much as the VCR. Then, you look at the monthly cost of a DVR (standalone), and it's $14.99 for recording programs. Most of that is to get the rights to utilize the program lists. The only viable alternative, AFAIK, isn't available: You manually set the start, stop, and channel. That high price combined with the monthly fee has turned off a lot of people.

Dish and DirecTV have cut out some of the middle stuff. They already pay for the licensing of program data into their entire lineup of receivers long before the concept of a DVR was a viable option. They took out the encoder since, by it's very nature, the video IS compressed data. (The upcoming 921 will also record OTA digital broadcasts since they will be compressed also). And, if I recall correctly, the $4.95 fee that DirecTV charges for DirecTivo is to cover the licensing fees for the Tivo technology.

The DVRs do not have any other revenue sources. Compare that with the console game systems. They are often sold at or below cost, and the difference is made up in the selling of the games. The ink jet manufacturers often sell their printers at cost and turn around and make the money off the ink cartridges. (I swear, my mom goes the more ink cartridges than I do going through my toner cartridges for my 10yo HP LaserJet 4.)

If Dish was smart, they would initiate some sort of upgrade program so that those of us who want a 120GB hard drive in our 50xs can get them. What about the units that are turned in? Well, quite legally, you can't sell them as "new" since they are used, but you can sell them as "refurbished". Take the extra step in making sure they are already pre-loaded with the firmware and put on there some demo videos which, through the OpenTV interface, can be reloaded overnight. Then sell it as "DishDVR Basic" where you basically go: "Give our DVR product a try for 30 days. You can set up to 50 timers and record at least 30 hours of programming. If you don't like it, we'll take it back. If you do like it, you can pay $149 up front, or commit to at least AT-50/Dish Latino for one year and just pay $9.95 per month for 12 months. After 12 months, the unit is yours."

A few units should go along with the installers with the tag "Property of Dish Network-Not For Sale". The installer can then use it as a "known good" unit during the install, then use it to show off the DVR features. If the customer likes it, and wants to know more, it's a quickie upgrade, and grab a refurb from the truck.

This idea can then be inserted into customer's bills and plugged by Dish 101 and Charlie Chat.

Now, doesn't THAT marketing scheme make more sense than this half-baked idea? By marketing it as "DishDVR Basic", the customer may get a 501 with 30 hours of record time or a 508 with 60 hours.

johntoto11

07-30-03, 02:52 AM

:grin: Speaking as an 'X' Dish PVR customer.I am sooo glad I purchased a DirecTV with TiVo receiver a few months ago. The difference between a Dish PVR and A DirecTV with TiVo DVR is truly like night and day!!To all you angry Dish subs out there....."Jump into DirecTV with TiVo now, the waters fine!" :grin: :grin: :grin:

Darkman

07-30-03, 04:48 AM

Yes (per Retailer Chat) - this new DVR fee will be receiver based...

Here some details of what they said:

DishDVR - 510 (PVR vs DVR - difference in the name i guess)
120 Gig HD, 100 hours recording..

DVR fees structure (mentioned above already)

Based on the above structure (they said) - this will be "the lowest cost DVR fees in America"

This cost will help - "cost efficiency", "will help to go forward", etc (approx. example of the words they used)

501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"

Geronimo

07-30-03, 05:08 AM

According to this thread it is per unit.

Darkman

07-30-03, 05:13 AM

There's also nothing to indicate that the 522 and 921 WON'T have the fees. The info you posted stated that " The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. "

The 501, 508, and 721 are already on the market, so I guess they are "last" generation DVRs. However, the 510, 522 and 921 are all not available as yet, so are they not "newest generation" DVRs ? The 510 is just a 508 with 40 extra gig on the hard drive, yet it still counts as a "newest generation" DVR with no real improvements.

I betcha that if the bottom-of-the-line 510 is considered next-gen, the dual-tuner dual-output 522 and the dual-tuner HD 921 will indeed be subject to the same fee.

I agree!
501, 508, 721 are already here...

however 522 and 921 are not here yet (so who knows if that still makes them "grandfathered" - hehe) - and therefore, who da heck knows if 522 and 921 will have this DVR fee...

But the way i interprete it so far (to-date) - 522 and 921 are not "grandfathered" yet (cuz not even out) - so if that is so - they should have this DVR fees (just following the logic)

Darkman

07-30-03, 05:26 AM

Chris, Scott - I guess you can see Dish following this thread?
(and that is why you say "Dish had been looking at this thread")?
:)

dtcarson

07-30-03, 07:07 AM

I would tend to agree--certainly the Tivo is 'better' than Dish's PVR's featurewise; I didn't go with Dish for the PVR, it was a bonus. I went with the PVR in part because there was no monthly fee. I could deal without the 'season pass' or name-based stuff for saving that rental fee. But if the PVR starts being charged the same fee, or just slightly less, why would I stay with it, when I could spend a few more dollars and get many more features and power?

When I had just a VCR, I didn't do too much timeshifting--every now and then I'd tape a movie or special, and my wife would have me tape one of those silly reality shows. But now I have a PVR, everything I'm even slightly interested in I record, and I record about 5 shows daily for my son [he hasn't watched hardly any of them, but this way I can always find something suitable to put on for him.] I love the technology, and I'm going to keep it; but I'm glad the current models are grandfathered, because that monthly fee, specifically for the PVRs, would definitely be a vote against Dish/PVR.

I guess another question is, what does the fee go for? Do I get anything more out of the PVR, or am I simply being penalized for wanting a bigger hard drive? The 301 has a 2-day guide, the 50x has what, a 9-day guide? That's not worth even five bucks more a month for me. If there is a software upgrade [or total rewrite, more likely] that adds some Tivo-like features, that might add some value for which I'd be willing to pay; but currently, it seems they have taken a lesson from the cable/phone companies, and just charging a fee because they can.

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 07:11 AM

What sucks is the move to the 120 GIG drive is just because smaller drives are being phased out. GEEZ ITS NOT COSTING E ANYTHING EXTRA AND STAYING WITH THE EXISTING DRIVE WOULD COST THEM MORE.

Special orders and such.

This makes me want to become a hacker. Dish picking our pocket.

I will not steal service, this will be the end for me I will go with D.

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 07:17 AM

E should consider that microsofts ultimate tv unit was discontinued over such charges.

The extra fees will scare off new subs.

ocnier

07-30-03, 07:18 AM

The only problem with that is the tivo os is way superior to the dish configuration (this is only natural and to be expected since tivo has been the in the business way longer). So I do not agree that E* should charge pvr fees simply because D* does. I mean at some point you have to be honest withyourself if your Dish, and admit that you are the underdog/ no.2 guy and therefore act accordingly with regards to pricing and price points. This is especially true if your equipment is substandard in many ways to your competitor. E* really has yet to truly trump D* in terms of equipment quality. I simply preferred E* unlike D* because they were proconsumer and didn't use shady business tactics like charging a customer for equipment capabilities per month that customer really already bought and paid for when the he bought the unit (that to this day still burns me up about D*). As far as tv offering I think the two are split even. E* has the supers and I think a better pricing tier for packages, but D* has deathgrip on the pro sports offering, in particular the sunday ticket which is the largest single customer based sports package subscription in the U.S.

boba

07-30-03, 07:23 AM

Hey guys I started this thread and I 've got to say DISH needs to take a step back and look at themselves. I was already an unhappy camper and switched my home subscription to Directv 2 days before this chat. The fee on the DVR was just the last straw. In 2 days of having Directv I am much impressed by their service. My picture hasn't frozern, it hasn't digitized due to over compression or trying to fit too much information into too little bandwidth. On my RCA base receivers the picture in guide comes up in most cases before the guide is up, unlike the black box on 301s. I can search ahead three days in the guide without aquiring information. My caller ID even displays, all the features I expected, work as they are supposed to.

I think DISH'S problems all started about 2 years ago when Charlie got so involved in trying to buy DIRECTV that he let his company slip. He needs to go back and look at what made DISH succesful the dealers that supported him and the input that came back from them to him. The people that interacted with the customers. All the SEARS, SBC, and internet resellers bring in orders but they provide little feed back in the way the customer feels about the service DISH provides to the customer. I think the 4 pages of comments on this topic has released some of the displeasure customers feel about the quality of DISH'S service.

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 07:32 AM

Yes! I am tired of perodic tech troubles, and tv watchers should NOT have to be technicians.

Sadly if your a DISH sub tech you will become:(

Chris Blount

07-30-03, 07:33 AM

Lee L

07-30-03, 07:37 AM

Based on the above structure (they said) - this will be "the lowest cost DVR fees in America"

501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"

Thanks Charlie, pee in my shoe and tell me it's raining.

The whole use of the term "grandfathered" seems bad to me. What happens if I have a 721 and want to buy another? do I get spanked with 2 DVR fees or just one. It is of course very early and we are all reacting to the announcement without much clarification but the whole thing just opens up a huge can of worms.

I was planning on buying a 921 and then a 721 to get rid of my 2 DishPlayers and my 6000 and ensure that I would not be charged a $ 9.95 PVR fee since according to all of E*'s advertisements, the fact that they did not have a fee was a main selling point. I was going to be able to get a nice equipment upgrade (of course paying E* around $1500 plus whatever the superdish crap was going to cost me) and be able to save a little each month. Now it seems I might pay even more than the 3 extra receiver fees and the potnetial DP $9.95 a month. I guess we just can't assume that E* will not change their mind about everything now. That has been the real eye-opener for me. E* used to be the company that bragged about not raising rates for so many years and overall had a very customer friendly attitude. Now, it seems as if any statement made is for the short term only and cannot be relied upon for long term (more than one year) planning by customers.

scooper

07-30-03, 07:45 AM

The ONLY way I would pay a PVR/DVR fee would be if E* would go out and license the TIVO software to put in their DVR/PVR units. TIVO functionality would make the fee worth it - anything less is just gouging.

If the big concern is getting NEW customers in - offer an installment plan. Same plan would work for upgrading new customers - "here is your final price for an E* DVR" - and give them reasonable options on how to get there. But this idea of a fee in perpetuity for E* current level of software just doesn't float.

I MIGHT think about getting a 508 before 8/31, but I'm not forking out for a 522 now - not unless that fee goes away, or we start getting improved functionality for that fee.

Or here's another idea - 2 levels of DVR - no-fee, current timer based, or you pay for an upgrade to license TIVO - and this fee is account based, not receiver-based.

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 08:00 AM

Chris because the main cost of PVR for TIVO is providing the guide. E ALREADY does that so it doesnt cost anythin extra.

Besides as Charlie says PVR subs are sticky. We tend to not leave.

Chris is interesting to note that you agree the functionality of E PVRs is not as good as others.

Wonder why E accepts this?

ocnier

07-30-03, 08:07 AM

Scooper I can go for that, it's basically the way D* used do their accounts with tivo before they got mega greedy, however, I just don't see a marriage anytime soon with tivo and E*. If nothing else it would equipment release waaaaay back. Also all the money E* invested in R&D would be wasted.

jrbdmb

07-30-03, 08:14 AM

501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"Just like those who bought the "Lifetime" Dishplayer service will never have to pay a fee ... :contract:
The last time I checked E* vs. D* for the programming I wanted, the costs were about even. If Charlie now decides to bump up my price of E* by $10/mo, D* is clearly the better value, esp. considering the quality of the TiVo product against the E* DVRs.

However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.I would counter that the retail price of the DVR unit should cover all research / development cost.

Also note that non-PVR receivers also require research, development, SW maintenance, etc. These costs for all receivers is part of E*'s overhead, and should be included either in the purchase price of the receiver or as part of the standard monthly fee. There is no licensing fee's a la TiVo to justify a $5 - $10/mo charge per receiver. If E* follows this reasoning, I guess we'll could see new monthly charges for OpenTV, Dish Instant Weather, local channel remapping, guide searches, timers, using the 105 / 121 satellites, SuperDish, ...

jasonf

07-30-03, 08:35 AM

The huge shocker for me is that this fee is per receiver you own. I have 3 DTivo's and pay $4.99 for the PVR fee for all of them. I also can pick them up for $150 each or almost free as a new customer. I find it short sighted and stupid on their part in charging for a inferior product, and yes it is inferior as I have seen them all in action. (Of course the 522 and 921 maybe different, but we all now the truth there)

From reading what Charlie said earlier in this thread. I find he has no clue on what people use PVR's for, and if he was smart, he would make every receiver a PVR/DVR or whatever the hell they decided to call it. He would retain so many more customers doing that.....

I guess I'll be going with the Sony PSX when it comes out this Winter. It will have TIVO built in and maybe the 3day free guide version, will be a DVD +R/-R and is a playstation as well.

Also, Blue laser recorders are coming out. Some will be 18-20 gig of space per DVD disk to 27gig on Sony's version. Dish will have to compete with all of these, and I would bet the Sony PSX is going to be what finally brings PVR's into the majority of homes. Especially if its at a $299 price point.

gor88

07-30-03, 08:44 AM

I am a former owner of a PVR508. Personally, E* is making a HUGE MISTAKE in charging a fee for PVR service.

I now have a Hughes HDVR2 TiVo receiver and a Director Receiver with a Phase III dish. The rain fade occurs a little more frequently than with E*. However, the TiVo is so much easier to work with. My fiance had more difficulty learning the 508. When I got the TiVo, she mastered most functions within two weeks.

I went from AT150 with locals on one receiver to Total Choice + with locals and 2 receivers. I was paying $52.41 for E*. I now pay $53.47 for TC+, Tivo and second receiver. If I still only had one receiver, I would actually save $4 a month.

D* gives me the low power UPN signal in Jackson, MS. E* is supposedly still in negotiations. At least they added WB, TWO MONTHS after locals became available. D* had all but UPN available on Day 1. UPN was turned on the next day.

E* has also been delayed in adding new markets. D* has been delivering as promised. I didn't think Mom would get locals in Coffeeville, MS (Columbus, MS market) until roughly 2005. She's had them for one month and is very pleased.

My brother now has my old 508 and has thought about an upgrade. If E* charges a fee, he may decide to make the switch to D* as well.

Charlie, if you charge for the PVR, you had BETTER practically give away the locals like D* does. Also, why bother with a single tuner PVR now? The trend is going to dual tuner units, Charlie. As a former E* PVR subscriber, I will say that the dual tuner has come in VERY handy on several occasions in the two months I have had the TiVo. The ability to upgrade the hard drive in TiVo receivers is another plus that is BADLY needed. E* should make sure that all future DVR units have dual tuners and ability to upgrade hard drives.

It is things like this that convince me that the switch to D* was a good one.

angiodan

07-30-03, 08:44 AM

24 hours after hearing this news, and I'm still in shock. Chatting with Mark at Dish Depot, he agrees, this fee is going to be a killer. $5 per dvr, give me some of the stuff they're smoking.

I have also sent an email to Charlie (with a nice link to this thread). I can't wait to see what standard bs reply I'll get back.

John Walsh

07-30-03, 08:44 AM

I would rather never see a DVR fee from E*, I thought they were smarter than that. But then at least they gave a way out- Americas Everything Pack. I sold my Dishplayer partially because I didn't want to pay for PVR anymore (DVR...whatever you want to call it). Our DVR's from E* are a little buggy and not very feature packed or should I say smart.

dinkster

07-30-03, 08:46 AM

There is no doubt that the posture of Dish for their proposed "Monthly Fee" will determine who will provide my future service.

As others have noted, I too have a fully loaded 6000, 2 dishes, etc. and have been waiting for a very long time for the 921. In fact, I like this unit so much that the principal reason I watch the Tech Chat, Charlie Chat, and read many threads on DBSTalk and AVS is to learn as much as I possibly can about this new unit. I have been somewhat concerned about the problems experienced by users of the 721.

In order for me to install the new 921, I will spend an abundance of money to revamp my satellite system with the SuperDish, new cabling, 921, etc. In brief, rip out the existing system and replace it completely.

The good news is that as I am required to do all of this to enjoy the benefits of HD-PVR technology, I don't pay any real premium to replace my system with Direct TV/HD-Tivo. In fact, as a new subscriber to DirectTV, I would get new subscriber benefits from Direct that Dish seems to take for granted.

True, I'm only one consumer and I'm sure that Dish will do just fine without my business. But I have been a loyal customer for many many years, Americas Everything, CCAutoPay. I would have thought that I would be precisely the target demographic that Dish would love to keep.

I honestly don't understand this position of Dish. They will lose my business.

Time to research the HD-Tivo.

DenR

07-30-03, 08:49 AM

I was considering purchasing a 921 when it came out. However, considering this latest move by dish, I am not going to do that. We call know that Tivo's have more functionality than the dish DVRs. I lived with that because I prefer dish programing and there was no fee on the unit. Now everything has changed. If I'm going to pay a $4.99 fee, I expect the same level of functionality that the Tivo offers.

Yesterday morning I would never have imagined myself saying this: I am considering switching to DirectTV. I will pass on the 921 and wait for the HD Tivo to come out and make the move.

hokie94

07-30-03, 08:58 AM

Although this was a few months ago, I wonder if customers in the states listed in the article can go to their Attorneys General and argue that E* is upto its old tricks

EchoStar Reaches Agreement with 13 States
Thursday May 22, 2:49 pm ET

LITTLETON, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 22, 2003--EchoStar Communications Corporation (Nasdaq:DISH - News) announced today that its subsidiary, EchoStar Satellite Corporation, has entered into an agreement with 13 state attorneys general resolving a dispute about the processes used in advertising disclosures, customer relationship and similar issues relating to EchoStar and its independent retailers.

EchoStar is confident its practices have at all times complied with applicable law and entered into the settlement in order to avoid costly and potentially protracted litigation. There was no finding of any violation or wrongdoing by the company and each state released EchoStar from all matters investigated.

To promote continued customer satisfaction, under the Voluntary Assurance of Compliance agreement reached today, EchoStar agreed to implement enhancements to its processes, including recording some customer calls for verification purposes. The 13 states include the following: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, and Wisconsin.

"Customer satisfaction has always been a top priority for our company and we always look for new ways to improve our product offering," said Charles Ergen, chairman and CEO of EchoStar. "We are pleased to work with the state attorneys general in a cooperative manner to enhance and strengthen our product offering for consumers."

EchoStar Communications Corporation (Nasdaq:DISH - News), through its DISH Network(TM), is a leading U.S. provider of satellite television entertainment services with 8.53 million customers. DISH Network provides advanced digital satellite television services to the home, including hundreds of video, audio and data channels, personal video recording, HDTV, sports and international programming, professional installation and 24-hour customer service. For more information on DISH Network, visit www.dishnetwork.com, call 800/333-DISH (3474) or contact your local DISH Network retailer.

Darkman

07-30-03, 09:04 AM

Well - about what Chris said above, - quoting Retailer Chat, Dish did say something like that (among other things stated earlier in this thread) : "the DVR fees also nessesary to allow Us to get Aggressive with DVR technology and/or development" ( something like that was said :) )

jeffwtux

07-30-03, 09:09 AM

What should really be alarming to Charlie is that all of this outrage(5 pages of postings and counting in less than 24 hours!!!) is from a Charlie Chat that customers couldn't even see!! I couldn't imagine the outrage if this was mentioned in the regular Charlie Chat.

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 09:12 AM

I do agree the 510 is a mistake, better to just build the 522. Fewer models would hopefully equal less bugs....

Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?

jasonf

07-30-03, 09:13 AM

"the DVR fees also nessesary to allow Us to get Aggressive with DVR technology and/or development" ( something like that was said :) )

Ok, why not save that money, and just license TIVO's software, and charge what Dtivo charges. Someone how he thinks he can make his own for cheaper and better. However, he makes his own buggier and they cost more. Man, they should have brought replay when they had the chance....

jasonf

07-30-03, 09:16 AM

I do agree the 510 is a mistake, better to just build the 522. Fewer models would hopefully equal less bugs....

Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?

I bet total Bob you could make $500+, get 2 Dtivo's and be up $200+ which you could put towards a years worth of programming almost. Those apples look pretty good to me.

Man I was really thinking the 522 was going to be awesome with no extra receiver fee....If it worked I would have maybe switched just for grins. Not anymore. I can never justify paying a fee for something that doesn't do name based recording.

cnsf

07-30-03, 09:44 AM

If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.

Don't count on this as I'm sure you know the DirecTivos are very easy to upgrade on your own. Most people that need that space are usually the gadget heads like me. I would rather get an HD deal at techbargains for $80 with a $12 9thTee bracket and add a second drive than spend an extra $200 for the bigger factory unit.

I think the next focus is an HD Tivo.

Randy_B

07-30-03, 09:56 AM

Existing customers do not drive up stock or make the company grow; new customers do. That means that a business decision that is disadvantageous to existing customers, even to the point of defection, is acceptable

But churn/turnover IS a big consideration for Wall St. Just look at the shenanigans that Charter has been caught pulling trying hide customer defections. Besides, profits do not come from new, subsidized customers. It is the old, long timers like me and others that account for profits. I bought my 2000 for more than $300 in '96. No subsidies, just straight profit to E* bottom line from my subscription. Loosing a sizeable chunk of their original subscriber base (that will be the defecting group) will have a visible impact on their filings.

E* always tried to justify the DP fee by saying that MS made them charge, it was in the contract agreement for the joint development of the DP and WebTV software. No such excuse here.

510 IS the 501 software package, noting new but a $99 HD. The 921 IS the 721 software package (even the same chipset!), so there is not a huge R&D effort for this new receiver. Software costs are already sunk. I would have to assume the 522 will be either the 50x or 721 under the hood.

Finally, this just really flies in the face of all the interactive TV, DVR analysts predictions for market growth. Even with E* not having a DVR fee and DirecTivo have a $5 fee, ALL the analysts see cable industry as the REAL growthin the DVR market. The reports I have read recently all have the cablecos surpassing multi million #s in subscribers in the next couple of years. By far surpassing E*'s moderate growth which leads the market for now. E* MUST fight cable incursion, domination of DVR market. This bonehead move only feeds it. Look at E*'s subscriber numbers, the 50x and 721 are driving their growth right now. The cheap 301 isn't it! $5-$10 PER RECEIVER will not be a nick to marketing vein, it will be a slice to an artery.

Finally, this isn't a blunder on the part of the marketing dept. Jim DeFranco, the #2 guy, MADE the announcement. This pile of steaming doo comes with the Corporate HQ blessing!!!

No doubt this is a real firestorm in the making. I can't remember the last time I saw this kind of near unanimous, instant anger. And of course E* Execs have their heads buired up their arses, no attempts at rumor control or an effort to "correct" the context if we are all misreading this. The only time to stop this kind of bad press is immediately. Rule of thumb for folks in Crisis Mgmt PR is 48 hrs to TAKE control, after that it takes on a life of its own and the company can only react afterwards and try to defend, which doesn't work well.

Completely unbelievable.

awax

07-30-03, 10:01 AM

New to this forum, have never even seen any DISH products but been a DirecTV customer for > 5 years and DTivo since January.

Does the statement above mean you cannot search for programs to record based on title, or setup a "season pass" to record all occurances of a show like you can with Tivo? :eek2:

You can search for a show by name but for example say The Simpsons come on everyday at 6:00pm and I have a timer set up for that, well there just happens to be a one hour Simpsons special the my "DVR" would only record 30 min. of it because it is not smart enough to see that in the guide The Simpsons is scheduled for an hour today not the normal 30 min.

Tivo or Ultimate TV would catch this and record the whole thing.

Season Pass and Wishlists are nonexistent.

BobMurdoch

07-30-03, 10:01 AM

OK, I understand the outrage for the AT50 folks and I agree that the concept of a monthly fee is stupid when your product costs hundreds more than the alternative (I'm talking existing subscribers who upgrade).

However, I do like one shift....... The idea of rewarding subscribers who purchase bigger ticket programming packages.

I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?

Scott Gammans

07-30-03, 10:02 AM

First post here! Too bad it's on this subject.

I was considering buying a compete Echostar system when the DISH 921 arrived (dish+PVR) but this monthly fee now makes it a tossup between Echostar and DirecTV when the HD TiVo arrives. Echostar isn't shooting itself in the foot, it's machine-gunning itself.

razorbackfan

07-30-03, 10:03 AM

I had planned to upgrade to the 921, there's $1,000.00, plus I'll have to get the Super Dish, whatever that's gonna cost, then pay a monthly service fee? There's another $100.00 a year, plus pay for programming, plus pay for the HD channels, plus pay for locals...then in 2 more years, Dish comes out with a Super-Duper Dish or something you have to upgrade to in order to watch tv, and new fees.

I remember the last tech chat when they guy snickered about since we paid for our HDTV equipment we're just gonna have to pay more for Dish too. Maybe that's the prevailing thought at Dish now.

As much as I HATE Cox Cable, their new digital service sure sounds inviting. Either that or I'm gonna look into D*.

jasonf

07-30-03, 10:10 AM

This is crazy, I wonder when Matt Drudge will pick this story up ;)

Ok lets place bets what happens with all of this -

1. Mark from DishDepot will start selling Direct TV too.
2. The next amazing race contest will be for a free HD TIVO or atleast a series 2
3. Dish will annouce there was some miss information, and the fee's cover all receivers. (my gut says they will wake up and change that, if they don't they are trully Aholes IMO)
4. Scott willl become best frineds with TIVO Pony and will be beta tesing the HD Tivo ;)
5. Both dbsforums and dbstalk will mend and become a fource against the evil Charlie, with a new URL dbstalkforums.com
6. This is the most entertainment we've all had in a long time....

Disclaimer: This was all in fun, so don't flame me, but I bet atleast one of those things come true ;)

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 10:19 AM

Hey we should e mail sky reports. Last time I did that it got Es attention real fast:(

It was over the DP, after a month of non returned e mails one contact to sky got soyras office to call me first thing in the AM and offer me a 508 for $99

I guess E is ready to take the hit.

Scott Greczkowski

07-30-03, 10:33 AM

This is crazy, I wonder when Matt Drudge will pick this story up ;)

Ok lets place bets what happens with all of this -

1. Mark from DishDepot will start selling Direct TV too.
The do already. http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/items.php?CA=DIRECTV&UID=

2. The next amazing race contest will be for a free HD TIVO or atleast a series 2
We gave a DirecTivo away on our last Survivor Contest
4. Scott willl become best frineds with TIVO Pony and will be beta tesing the HD Tivo ;)
Hey I would not mind that, I will test and review ANY DBS equipment sent to me. Its free advertising for whoever. :)
5. Both dbsforums and dbstalk will mend and become a fource against the evil Charlie, with a new URL dbstalkforums.com
It would be a COLD day :D
6. This is the most entertainment we've all had in a long time....
After a long dull summer it is good to see people taking a stand.

RyMcQ

07-30-03, 10:35 AM

A question from a former Dish subscriber and current DirecTiVo owner:

Why all the handwringing?

It seems that many of you recognize that TiVo is better, more stable, and more useful, even if it is $5 more a month. (I'd still gladly pay 10.) Some of you may also recognize that DTV has more bandwidth and (in my experience) has better picture quality for locals (80% of my viewing). Additionally, you just don't know what you are missing if you haven't used a PVR with 2 tuners.

Are you worried about going over to the dark side after being a Dish advocate?

My brother, after we both had DTiVo for a year, asked which I'd give up first: color TV or TiVo? The fact that it is tough question for me is telling. As for the Dish PVR (which I used for over one month while visiting my in-laws), the question would be: Would it be worth the effort to replace a DTV/VCR setup with Dish PVR? I honestly don't know the answer to that!

treiher

07-30-03, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by rtt2:
CHARLIE ERGEN: I don't think you'll see us do that. I think the products complicated. I don't think it's for everybody. People who have PVR love it, whether they have a TIVO or a cable box or ours, but it's not for everybody. There's people who -- there's people who just -- I mean, this -- we are a country where when you go in somebody's house, the clock on the VCR is blinking.

And a PVR is more complicated than that. So you have to be careful about -- about trying to put that in everybody's house. So -- and it does have more service calls, it is a moving part. It's -- you know, it -- it has the technology is changing rapidly, so I think -- I think that we have a lot of upside on PVR and we don't charge for it. For example, everybody else charges for it. There's an opportunity for us to charge for PVR.

We're looking seriously at that we think that could make some sense under certain circumstances. And clearly it's a stickier customer, at least so far. So we think there's some opportunity there. But by no means do I think it's going to be the majority of -- of our industry customers for the foreseeable future.

This quote sure explains a lot! Now I know why the 721 and other PVR software support has been so lacking. The top guy in the company views this is as a niche market. Rather than acknowledging the problem, and making a positive statement as to how they are going to make it simpler for those people and expand its use, he basically writes it off as too complicated for us dumb consumers. Maybe, just maybe, if they get with the program, release some software, and make the units easier to use, more people would use them! And if they had decent support on those units, this so called new DVR fee would at least pass the laugh test. But, they would have to do that first. Maybe their plan is the PVR units cost a lot for them to support (with hardware and software upgrades) and so they need a fee to cover that cost. But how do we know they won't just add the fee and nothing will change. Seems to me, they have to provide greatly improved support first, then justify it with the fee. Still not sure I would go along with that, but at least it would be easier to understand!

Bottom line . . . they do this, and I will not get a 921. My bill is high enough already, and I don't need to pay an additional $5 a month for the privilege of using this very expensive unit. And ultimately (notice I didn't use the word eventually. I know Dish understands that word to mean someday, maybe, but definitely not for a long time), I will leave Dish Network.

treiher

07-30-03, 10:48 AM

And another thing . . . I suspect a major reason why most of their subscribers to not have PVR units is because if you look at most of the Echo* promotions over the past few years aimed at getting new customers, they almost always are focused around a low cost package which includes several of the older 301 units. Yes, we see some promotions now on the PVR's, but they have driven their new customer base toward the non PVR units whether they intended to or not.

Mike123abc

07-30-03, 10:50 AM

I have been quiet on this subject while reading the posts in this thread. There have been some very good points made.

However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.

Sure, it's easy to say "Dish should be covering these costs through the collection of regular monthly fees." But what about the people without DVR's? Why should they have to pay for people who have them?

I don't know. I guess I'm still undecided. Right now I subscribe to the Everything Pak so the fee won't affect me when I get a new receiver but frankly I think their DVR pricing structure is fair. Old receivers are grandfathered (which is a good thing in my book) and new DVR's will only carry a fee depending on which package you subscribe to. I don't have a problem with this. It's close to what DirecTV is doing so what's the big deal (although the functionality of their DVR's is better).

I know I will get flamed for this so go right ahead. The great thing is that this is a free country and I still have the right to choose my satellite provider. If at some point I decide to switch to DirecTV, I will, and Dish can't stop me. But at this point in time I won't be switching because of this new DVR pricing structure. Quite frankly it's not worth the trouble.

The same can be said about ANY reciever. They all have software that is being fixed and upgraded all the time. Yes the DVR software is more complex but they charge more up front for the DVRs. Dish makes money on DVRs now because people subscribe to Dish and pay for programming for their DVRs.

It brings up the question if they are going to be doing the fees why do they charge $5/month extra for "mirroring"? Do you think it really costs them more than 1-2 cents per month to add an extra reciever (beyond the first month to put in the computer)? Lets see an extra line on the bill if you get paper bills, two extra numbers in the database (reciever/smartcard numbers). So, for every DVR you add to your AT50 account you are adding $4.98 to Dish's monthly profit as it currently stands.

Yes it is a free country and Dish can charge what they like. But, the problem is that they may just charge themselves out of business.

Yes I subscribe to the AEP, so it probably would not affect me at all, but I do not want to feel like I am trapped in the package to avoid fees. If I ever wanted to drop the AEP, I may as well drop Dish.

RAD

07-30-03, 10:55 AM

However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.

Chris, sorry but I don't agree at all with this reasoning. What you're saying could go farther, a new monthly charge on the 821 to cover future development. Why not go farther, you buy your next Ford, but they will charge you an extra $50 a month to help design next years model.

The cost for R&D of a product needs to go into the purchase price of a product and that product only, not forcing a user to pay a monthly fee to cover your R&D for something in the future that I may not want.

Really all I want in a PVR is the ability to time shift. I don't need OpenTV games/news/customer service etc. So if that's what you thing the $4.99 would go to, more application like that, Dish is pushing me away as a customer.

MNToyx4

07-30-03, 10:56 AM

As a subscriber to AEP, I am excited to see Dish reward higher profit customers. If Charlie decides to charge an extra fee for AEP subscribers with the 921, then I will issue and RUN to the competition.

OK, I understand the outrage for the AT50 folks and I agree that the concept of a monthly fee is stupid when your product costs hundreds more than the alternative (I'm talking existing subscribers who upgrade).

However, I do like one shift....... The idea of rewarding subscribers who purchase bigger ticket programming packages.

I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?

baloo75

07-30-03, 11:21 AM

I too am not happy with this news.

The ONLY reason I went with Dish originally was because there were no PVR fees. Their service isn't any better D*, and the only advantage they have over cable is with quality, though cable would get me signal for free on ALL the TVs in my house.

(OK Now on soapbox)

When I here about Dish needs to charge a monthly fee to recoup R&D costs this is rediculous. Look at it this way, would you buy a digital camera, refrigerator, TV, PC, insert your favorite electronic device here, if you had to pay a monthly fee on top of the initial purchase, I didn't think so. This is why manufacturers recoup their investment in the purchase price. Now on top of all this Echostar gets an annuity on top of this in the form of monthly programming fees.

If Echostar can't make money charging me $500 for a 721 then something is wrong. The hardware costs are not even close to $500 (when mass produced) this leaves R&D, manufacturing and I would bet the largest amount being support costs. Echostar needs to take a good look at their R&D department and determine why their devices fail so often (part of this is HW/Electronics and part of this is Software). A PC with twice the storage capability, and probably 100 times the processing power/memory costs much less than this receiver costs. All these things are is a PC with an MPEG2 decoder. Reducing their support/operating costs is the answer now P#$%@ off their customers.

Customers MUST come first for a company to be successful!

Whew...Ok off soapbox

To the people talking about selling their equipment on EBAY, I would wait, once they start charging a monthly fee for the new equipment the grandfathered equipment will be worth a premium on the open market.

TIVO sure looks interesting now, if nothing else out of principle :)

Matt Stevens

07-30-03, 11:45 AM

All I can say is that I was going to get a 921. I have no PVR now. If they want to charge me $5 in addition to the $4 or so additional receiver fee charge, then I will be talking to my local cable company. The 921 is going to be huge bucks. HUGE. And to charge us a monthly fee on top of that is not only greedy, it's rude. It's a slap in our face.

Wake up Charlie.

SParker

07-30-03, 11:52 AM

Charlie Ergen is making a move to the dark side! Tomorrow he will reveal himself as the new Emperor Darth Greedious! :D

bishoptf

07-30-03, 12:01 PM

New member, long time dish 501 user.

The only reason and only reason I put up with the DISH PVR was the lack of a FEE. I have been waiting and waiting for the 921 and wanted to buy as soon as it was available, but if DISH thinks that the software they have in their PVR is worth a fee then they are LOONEY TUNES. This is not a threat but a promise to DISH, if this is true and they are going to start charging a fee then I will GLADLY switch to Directv, without hesitation. Even though I will have the Tivo fee, IMO I will be receiving a superior product. I will wait for the HD Direct Tivo unit to be released. It will be very interesting to see how all of this unravels.

pjmrt

07-30-03, 12:16 PM

Hey Scott,
I notice 6 pages of posts (and not one of them positive regarding D* announcement) all in about a day. Anyone in Echostar taking note of all this?

Scott Greczkowski

07-30-03, 12:24 PM

I emailed Charlie and Jim and lerted them to this thread (I have heard nothing back from them yet)

I have also emailed in a bunch of comments in to Marc Lumpkin and have also heard nothing from him as of yet.

Checking the board stats I can see that Dish is indeed reading this.

Lets hope they make some changes based on the consumer opinion. :)

dinkster

07-30-03, 12:37 PM

In reading through these posts, I would like to think that Dish should take some serious notice of the overwhelming feelings expressed here. As someone noted earlier, all of this from a retailer chat not even seen by subscribers.

If this level of resistance is reflected by the members of this forum, who (and I count myself among them) are THE foremost users most inclined to purchase Dish's premium services and hardware, how do they expect to expand their premium tier programming base.

I for one, have no problem with spending an additional $11/Mo for additional HD programming, in fact I would gladly call and order it today if it was made available.

Bob Haller posed a very valid question for me. As a premium tier AEP subscriber, the fee would not apply to me. What rubs me the wrong way is once I have spent say around $1200 to buy the 921, SuperDish, new cabling, and commit to spend another $11/Mo, I'm locked in to Dish. I just can't afford to throw all of that away in the event that Dish changes the parameters that forces me to expend additional monthly PVR/DVR fees should they so decide. Dish doesn't have a great track record in that regard.

As I have wanted a HD-PVR for some time now, with the new offerings (hopefully) finally becoming available in the next 3-5 months, I will have to decide upon my upgrade path to HD-PVR prior to the end of the year. Actually without this Fee development, I would have purchased a 921 as soon as available.

I'm miffed that I now have to move that decision point out even further to seriously consider moving to HD-Tivo, which based upon what I know about Tivo, has the appeal of a superior search and programming functionality.

bishoptf

07-30-03, 12:45 PM

Dinkster quote:

"I for one, have no problem with spending an additional $11/Mo for additional HD programming, in fact I would gladly call and order it today if it was made available. "

I agree, I was prepared to do exactly the same thing, buy the 921 and the HD packake that they were coming up with. If they proceed with the fee then I will go with the HD directv Tivo route.

bogi

07-30-03, 12:57 PM

This gives the VCR a few more years of life :) No buggy software to worry about or any monthly fees.

dishrich

07-30-03, 12:57 PM

It's close to what DirecTV is doing so what's the big deal (although the functionality of their DVR's is better).

Hmm, lets see a comparison:

(for 1 PVR on an account)
E*: AT100, SINGLE tuner PVR 510 = $5 DVR fee
D*: TC, DUAL tuner D-Tivo = $5 DVR fee

(for 2 PVR's on an account)
E*: AT100, 2 SINGLE tuner PVR510 = $10 DVR fee
D*: TC, 2 DUAL tuner D-Tivo's = $5 DVR fee

So, in the 2nd instance, I'm getting FOUR tuners worth of PVR for $5 on D*, while on E* I'm only getting TWO tuners worth of PVR for $10 - 1/2 the convenience at double the price; yea, it's a pretty close comparison Chris...
:confused: :lol: !rolling :nono2:
(I won't even bother with the OBVIOUS regarding the Tivo software vs the lousy one from E*)

jasonf

07-30-03, 01:02 PM

The do already. http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/items.php?CA=DIRECTV&UID=

We gave a DirecTivo away on our last Survivor Contest

Hey I would not mind that, I will test and review ANY DBS equipment sent to me. Its free advertising for whoever. :)

It would be a COLD day :D

After a long dull summer it is good to see people taking a stand.

Just goes to shows how much I know..... 0 :)

dbronstein

07-30-03, 01:14 PM

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say this is a smart move for Dish. The vast majority of people still don't know what a pvr/dvr is, let alone have them. Tivo has set the standard of paying a monthly fee to use them. Dish is figuring that as more people become aware of them and buy them, they will accept monthly fees as standard. And that's probably a safe bet. Plus people who aren't sure about going to a higher package might be more willing to do so if they get their dvr fee waived as part of the deal.

And everyone here overlooks that this is a very small minority of Dish's customers. They might be higher-end customers, but I would still say that if everyone here left Dish, they probably wouldn't even notice.

Dennis

chris_h

07-30-03, 01:23 PM

Of all the threads I have ever read, this is the one that must have the D* folks salivating the most.

I really expected Dish to send a message thru the back-channels by now to the effect of "no, the monthly fee is only if you want the 510 unit for free, no monthly fee if you buy it outright." This "buy the PVR as you go" would be a good strategy to get more PVRs in the hands of Dish customers. PVR customers are more likely to enjoy more programming, which would make it easier to keep them as a customer (reduce churn).

It seems like Dish does not realize a few things:
1) The current PVR software is correctly priced at "free." If it had all of the features of Tivo, it would be worth $5/month (to me).
2) The members of these forums are the ones that recommend technology to their family/friends/co-workers. If you think you are just upsetting a few thousand customers, think again.
3) The excitement surrounding the 921 will disappear if it costs $999 and has a monthly fee. I have already confirmed that Mark at Dish Depot will not charge the $50 cancellation fee if I chose not to take my pre-ordered 921. The HD Tivo will likely come to market around the same time as the 921.

johnsbin

07-30-03, 01:26 PM

Not to throw a wet blanket on this energetic discussion but here goes:

I think E* has looked at what D* is charging and are interested in looking similar in fee schedules and services while still touting more HD and other extras. They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better, but MILLIONS of users out there have NO IDEA what the difference is and will never know any different. The steady flow of new subscribers always jumps around the holidays, so they need to get the fee speed bump out and over with so that there is no noise about come December.

The herding masses don't know and probably wouldn't see any difference between D*Tivo and DishPVR/DVR. Think about how many out there have cheap TVs, AM radio in the dash, and constantly rebooting PCs the kids use because the adults have no idea how it works. It's all Tivo to them if they can even figure out how to use it.

The smart shopper will play the "Trade Up" promotions against each other to keep getting the best products and services because they notice and want it. The rest of the world still thinks you have to take a video tape out of your camcorder and get it developed somewhere.

bills976

07-30-03, 01:49 PM

There's a reason why my avatar is a T60... it's because I'm PROUD of the product. It has done everything I have asked of it, never once has crashed, and the $4.99 monthly fee is worth every penny in my book. About a month ago there was a mini-flame war between E* PVR owners and D* Tivo owners about who's got the superior product. The main point buttressing the Echostar supporters was the no-frills, fee free PVR argument.

Now that point is gone and a straight-up comparison between a 510 and an HDVR2 is almost laughable. These two are supposed to be competing products, yet the 510 lacks a second tuner, name based recording, and the ability to upgrade the hard drive. While that might have been acceptable if there was no monthly fee, now there is. Incentive gone.

I think the real troubling thing for E*, mainly its investors, is Charlie's admission that PVRs are fringe products that mainstream users will not adopt. Any Directv customer will tell you that the majority of in-house commericals done by Directv, other than PPV, are for the HDVR2. They are trying to get Tivo to become more mainstream. When I had Echostar, I saw none of that with the exception of the Charlie Chats, which aren't watched by the majority of the subscriber base. I would at least like to see a company TRY to market its marquee product instead of just sweeping it under the carpet.

Randy_B

07-30-03, 02:03 PM

They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better

If Dish had the great visibility of a huge national chain of retailers like DirecTV has, then perhaps it would be the case. Dish does not have a national chain of electronic reps pushing their products. Sams Club and Walmart do nothing to push product out the door (at our Sams club, the loner in the Cingular booth handles Dish equipment and the Wal-Mart has only ever carried the 301s!). Dish has built itself and continues to build its customer base off existing subscriber referrals and local installers/retailers (who have been screwed over enough over the last few years to be less than fully loyal to Charlie et al). Plus, it is not just the few hundred here. This group is more like a focus group and is probably statistically representative of a lot more subscribers. So Dish looses the folks they are making profits off of (subscribers with no subsidies or subsidy is already covered and gone) and loses the visibility they get through these members, they get lots of bad press in the trade papers via "word of mouth finally turns on "homey" satellite provider" headlines, and they BECOME solely dependent on the greeters at Wal-Mart to sell the curious a product that Charlie sez is so technical to begin with that people are afraid of it. RIGHT!

People are more forgiving of paying additional fee for something they can touch, like a second receiver, tacking on another fee for something they cannot actually describe won't float. Demographically, for people who only subscribe to AT50 ($24.99), the $10 fee but is a nearly 40% increase in their package price (fixed my bad math) !!!!! Sell that to the mass market.

Neil Derryberry

07-30-03, 02:10 PM

Dish does not have a national chain of electronic reps pushing their products.

That's just not true. You can buy the 301, 501/508, 721 and 6000 at Sears, and they exclusively sell Dish Network. The HDTV barker channel is playing on all of the Sears HDTV's, and incidentally, Sears is where I got my first Dish subscription over 3 years ago. You can even buy receivers online on sears.com...

johnsbin

07-30-03, 02:15 PM

Randy_B you pointed out something I keep forgetting since I don't look to see where Dish is being sold. Dish doesn't have any solid marketing plan - I've just been a customer since the beginning so I never paid attention to the marketing.

I always irks me to no end that I keep seeing all these D* ads while watching my DishNetwork service!

I'm gonna really hate seeing my E* equipment go the same route my Amiga computer went.

hokie94

07-30-03, 02:16 PM

The numbers just don’t add up. Walk through the numbers with me:

New subs added each quarter is about 400,000 (their last SEC filing on March 31, 2003, it was at 350,000, but I want to be aggressive about new subs).

Let’s say, 75% (300,000) wind up with the 510 or better (again, I believe somewhat aggressive)
Let’s say the average fee is about $5.99 assuming 60% of new subs with DVR are charged $4.98, 10% have Everything Pak and no charge, and 30% have AT50 and are charged $9.99.

$5.99 * 300,000 = $1,797,000 of revenue per quarter

Number of outstanding shares = 482,000,000

Revenue per share per quarter because of this fee = $0.00372

I find it hard to believe that E* would be willing to go through all the bad publicity over this for a measly 3/10 of a penny per share per quarter.

I wonder if their marketing department is aware that there is an investor relations department.

boba

07-30-03, 02:33 PM

Lets see Wal Mart/SAMS Club, SEARS, RADIO SHACK all are major retailers. SBC the telephone company in 13 states also retails DISH Network. RCA makes the units sold in Radio Shack and Wal Mart I think they are a significant name in retail electronics. I would say DISH has a significant presence in major retail markets. But in these markets they mainly sell the base model receiver simply on a low price basis through "order takers".

EvanS

07-30-03, 02:37 PM

... who only subscribe to AT50 ($24.99), the $10 fee but is a nearly 71% increase in their package price (24.99 / 34.99 = .71240) !!!!! Sell that to the mass market.

Randy - not at all to nitpick but the increase is really 40% - ($10.00/$24.99)

no that the percentage changes things...just doing my duty :sure:

Win Joy Jr

07-30-03, 02:46 PM

First off, not wanting to toss a 5 gallon can of gas onto the fire, but I must... Where would the E* subs go when they were not happy of the merger had gone thru??? This is EXACTLY what a bunch of us were talking about when the D* / E* "merger" was planned.

Now, to the planned "fee"...

First off - a PER UNIT FEE??? This gives the advantage to D*.

Second - I THINK they are trying to compete with the DirecTV DVR. Fee is just not the only item. The software, from what I have read on the forums, is just not in TiVo's league.

Third - You are now putting yourself in the position of offering one deal to one group of customers, but not another who may be paying the same. Grandfathering may become a bit of a nightmare when neighbors compare costs, and they will...

IMHO, E* has done nothing to strengthen its DVP position. It has just stirred up the masses.

Chris Blount

07-30-03, 02:51 PM

Big Bob

07-30-03, 02:52 PM

DenR

07-30-03, 02:58 PM

Many of you disagreed with my last post and I can understand that. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that switching to DirecTV right now because of a pending DVR fee is not worth my time and money. I have 2 dishes, an SW64, 3 receivers (including a 6000 that received local HDTV) and the SUPERSTATIONS!!! I like my system and it gives me what I want and a few things DirecTV cannot.

The DVR is only one part of a larger entertainment value I get from Dish. The possibility of the fee just doesn't weigh heavily enough to dismantle what I have built and payed for.

Now some of you with smaller systems with practically no investment, I can understand your eagerness to switch.

Chris,

The problem for many of us is that while we do have an investment in dish equipment, we are thinking about making a very large additional investment in the 921. This will be more than all of my current investment. Given the lower price of DirectTV equipment in general, it would probably be cheaper to switch.

santellavision

07-30-03, 03:06 PM

Dish if you are reading this...

If you charge us, We will not Buy the 921!
And as you can read, we will go elsewhere.

Scott Greczkowski

07-30-03, 03:11 PM

I just received an email from Jim DeFranco, in it he started that all upcoming DVRs will have this DVR Charge, he mentioned that the DVR's will be reduced if the customer takes a better programming package.

I wrote back to him and asked him to confirm that the 921 and 522 will indeed have a monthly DVR fee, and again I pointed him to this thread to see everyones feedback.

Let's hope he looks.

spanishannouncetable

07-30-03, 03:17 PM

Question.

Can a regular Tivo unit (not one specifically for satellite) operate if you don't pay the fee?
Can you buy the unit, not pay the fee and still be able to record shows through some sort of a vcr-like interface where you put in the times or pause live shows?

You could not record anything without a subscription. No Season Passes, no Wishlists, no manual recordings.

You could still do Trick Play functions, and you'd have a 30 minute buffer for pausing live TV

wooglin

07-30-03, 03:24 PM

As far as I can tell, there is no technical way Dish can tell if you have a 501/508 assuming your reciever is not plugged to the phone line. Since the 510 is nothing more than a 501/508 with a hard drive, I dont see how it can identify itself either, unless it is totally redesigned. Also, I have a feeling we will be able to shoehorn a 120gb drive into our 501/508 with the next software update using the sector backup/replacement method. Just a guess.

DarrellP

07-30-03, 03:29 PM

I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?
Bob, I disagree with you. I have been a Dish customer since Feb 97 and have always had a high priced package until this year. I downgraded to the AT50 because the price increases over the last 3 years have pushed the cost higher than I wish to pay. It's not a matter of not being able to afford it, it's just that I can't justify paying upwards of $100 just to watch TV. I would consider myself a loyal customer but am no longer a "high-end" pay through the A$$ customer. Why should I have to pay a DVR fee just because I don't want as many channels as you?

In addition to my package, I add Locals, another receiver and the warranty. So no matter what package I have, I am paying an additional $12.98 for a $24 package, that's 50% of my programming fee. Stick on another $10 for a DVR and my misc charges just about equal the programming costs. This is totally stupid.

If Dish institutes this fee on the 921, I am history with Dish, whether I buy one or not. I will not support Dish on this one.

DTV

07-30-03, 03:31 PM

As far as I can tell, there is not technical way Dish can tell if you have a 501/508 assuming your reciever is not plugged to the phone line. Since the 510 is nothing more than a 501/508 with a hard drive, I dont see how it can identify itself either, unless its totally redesigned.

Nothing except the serial number you have to provide when you activate the receiver.

wooglin

07-30-03, 03:34 PM

Well sounds like 501/508 users lucked out into a lifetime subscription. I think the extended warranty will be a good investment.

gcutler

07-30-03, 03:46 PM

I'm grandfathered for my 508, but what if I wanted to add a 510 to my account???
I have AT-150, and most Movie Channels but not AEP, My bill is close to $100 a month...So if I bought a new 510 I would still be charged $4.98/month PVR fee. I guess if I get rid of some programming (Locals, Supers, Foreign, Adult, drop my 3rd reciever, etc), but switch over to AEP for $74.99 I can get rid of the programming. OK Dish, I'll save $25/month to save another $4.98.

spanishannouncetable

07-30-03, 03:49 PM

Well sounds like 501/508 users lucked out into a lifetime subscription. I think the extended warranty will be a good investment.

Until your 501/508 dies, and they want to replace it with either a 510 (along with collecting the $5 monthly fee) or a fee-free 301.

Decisions, decisions :nono2:

Randy_B

07-30-03, 03:50 PM

Sears and Radio Shack reps I talked to when I was searching for our 721 knew noting about the receivers. They were trained on the 301 and that was about it. Both gave me a brochure to read. On teh opposite side, the BB and CC sales reps really pushing DirecTivo hard as did the Crutchfield rep on the phone. They were WELL versed in the tech specs of the receivers. If I hadn't known what I wanted, I would have bought.

My point is that for the most part DirecTV national sales is pushing receivers and service to the curious, to get E* you have to go and pull the reciever and investigate yourself. I am sure there are some very knowledgable RS reps out there that know the product, but I bet they are few and far between.

As for SBC, they are only handling the bundling of the bills, you can buy a 508 from them on the phone, but the sales rep won't have any info. I doubt that they would even try and sell you one unless you initiate the purchase.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 03:51 PM

Boy are they playing with fire. The software with the 5xx is fine if it is free, but paying for it is unacceptable (I would pay only $4.98 under the listing) but that would really be lame. If I am going to pay for software then I'll get another SA TiVo.

Anyone know if/when they will be pushing it on existing subs, or they won't but if you add a 510 in the future and they now have you??? I rarely get close to my 60 hours on the 508, so I'm in no rush to upgrade. And I can always add 120MB to my SA TiVo in a blink of an eye if I'm desperate for hard drive space

Does the Tivo have as many hours of recording time as the Dish PVR/DVR's ?

rtt2

07-30-03, 03:51 PM

This is what Charlie said about DirecTV & Tivo at the Q1 2003 EchoStar Communications Corp. Earnings Conference Call

"We're diverging a little bit from who the customers are that we go after. But we've always expected it's going to be extremely competitive, both within satellite and cable and perhaps someday through fiber and phone companies, so the key to that is, you have to build an organization that's a low-cost producer.

So, again, my analogy is always the airlines get in price wars all the time, but Southwest Airlines seems to do pretty well through thick and thin because they've built a -- they had the discipline, they've built a structure, an infrastructure, that's a low-cost infrastructure and that's repeatable.

And that's what we've tried to do at EchoStar. It's not going to be easy to come in to the cable industry or even within Hughes (ph) and suddenly put that into a low-cost structure that would anywhere get down to where -- to where we are.

**I'll give you a simple example. When it comes to PVR, TIVO disclosed this week that Direct TV pays them $3 a month. Well, that's -- you get a million customers, that's $36 million that goes out of the bottom line. EchoStar doesn't pay TIVO for PVR infrastructure. **

**Rather, we invented that ourselves. So that's $3 a month that we save our customers going forward. So that's an infrastructure that's -- that's -- that's difficult to change, in a short period of time, for them. We own our own call centers and have our own employees there. If that structure were to change, that's not something you can snap your fingers overnight and do. That will probably take years and years. **

And your current provider is not going to give you very good service if he knows you're throwing him overboard. So those are things that, you know, if you build uplink centers in Cheyenne, Wyoming you're going to be a lower-cost uplink center than if you're in Los Angeles, cool California.

You're not going to pick up and move your uplink center very easily and when you do, it's going to cost you a lot of money. So I feel very good about -- about our infrastructure costs ^, and I think it's -- if the -- no matter how competitive it gets, the low-cost producer will do very well. And I think without question, we are, by a long margin, the low-cost producer in delivering digital bit, point to multi-point.

As far as capex, capex was relatively low in the first quarter. We're not changing our guidance on that. We expect to spend the amount of capex we've talked about. I think it's about 300 million."[B]

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 03:53 PM

Yes and the HDs are user upgradabole....

Scott Greczkowski

07-30-03, 03:55 PM

Ok I just got the following email from Echostar spokesman Marc Lumpkin

I guess we can conder this OFFICIAL now...

DISH Network DVR Fees
Starting with all DVRs going forward and with the rollout of the new DishDVR 510 this summer,

Subscriber to America's Everything PAK, ($74.99/Mo) fee is DVR Fee is free.
Subscriber to America's Top 150 ($42.99/Mo) or Latino Max ($41.99/Mo), DVR Fee is $4.98/MO
Subscriber to America's 100 (33.99/MO) / Dish Latino DOS (31.99/Mo) fee is DVR Fee is $4.98/MO
Subscriber to America's Top 50, Top 50 plus or Dish Latino, DVR Fee is $9.99/MO.

DVR series: DishDVR 501/508/721 are grandfathered (0.00 Fee Per Month regardless of programming). DISHPlayer customers will see no change in their current fee structure.

Marc Lumpkin
General Manager of Corporate Communications
EchoStar Communications Corporation and DISH Network

Jacob S

07-30-03, 03:58 PM

So many questions.

3) Are they planning to upgrade the software to the point that it matches the level of service a SA TiVo provides, or do they really think they can get away with charging $10 a month (TWICE what Directv DVR service costs) for the single-tuner no-frills package they offer now ?

Why not get Tivo if Dish's software is not up to par with the Tivo (DirecTivo) service? This would really make me wonder what the advantages of Dish really would be if Dish would not make any improvements in their software. Now Dish does not have much of an excuse not to include Name Based Recordings in their software if their hardware can support this in which I do not see why they cannot. Do you think this fee is worth it if they do add Name Based Recordings to all of their PVR receivers with a monthly fee? Before people said it would be worth it.

Darkman

07-30-03, 04:01 PM

hehe - in "considered official" - i still do not see a mention about 522s and 921s....

hmmmm

Any "considered offical" word on those yet? :p

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:02 PM

Even if you pay full price for the DVR 510 the monthly fee will apply was the answer Jim DeFranco gave to a dealers question. The PVR 921 was not listed as a grandfathered unit so it looks like they plan on hooking the customer on that unit also. 501,508 & 721 owners will be grandfathered at zero monthly fees.

Are those that own the PVR/DVR receivers as of 9/1/2003 have to be activated by that time to get the free PVR deal and keep their account in good standing or lose the free PVR grandfathering?

If you deactivate those receivers and reactivate them again will you still get the free PVR/DVR features? What if you sold them to someone else, would they get the PVR/DVR features for free? (transferrable?)

spanishannouncetable

07-30-03, 04:02 PM

So does this mean that any 501/508/721 will never have a fee, or does the "grandfathered" status apply only to units currently active on subscribers accounts ?

If they will never have a fee attached to them, I expect they will be in high demand very soon, and the hacker community will begin making a serious effort to upgrade the drives more easily.

Big Bob

07-30-03, 04:05 PM

Well, they lost one customer with this one.

I have been waiting to give my parents a 522 as a gift (they would have to pay the programing costs) Don't think I am going to do it now.

So how many new customers will they have to get to pay the fee to make up for the fee and programing fee that they aren't going to get?

Bad move E*, bad move

dinkster

07-30-03, 04:06 PM

Sad to hear of the official announcement by Dish. Really sad.

They just lost one (formerly) very satisfied, very loyal, and very supportive customer.

The tragic part of all of this for Dish, is that the many people that each of us provide advise and guidance to, will now be receiving that advise and recommendations to the competition. In my case, I have provided recommendations to well over 150 people to go with Dish, and almost all now have Dish subscriptions. I have never asked for ClubDish benefits or any other consideration. It was my honest opinion.

Just today, I have had 12 people stop by my office and ask me what's going on with HD / Dish / Etc.

I really don't like the taste of eating my words.

Big Bob

07-30-03, 04:07 PM

other question.

Any word on a lifetime subscription?

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 04:09 PM

Ahh they are a sorry bunch. pure greed. As I said before the 510s larger HD is driven by the shortage of small drives, this is JUST A EXCUSE TO GOUGE THE SUBS.

I am fed up, direct here I come.

I wonder how E will feel about the internet suggesting people buy D?

That will in some way hurt their new sub numbers.

They are playing with fire.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:10 PM

One of the biggest reasons I went with E* was because of the free DVRs and now I learn of this.
I am sad to see E* take this direction because I was planning on purchasing some of their new hardware but it seems like a poor place to invest in equipment now.

I just don't it does't Dish realize the vast superiority between them & TIVO? I am willing to put up with the difference if the service was free but paying for it is crazy. I also cannot justify all these new increases on my bill; the new satellite tax in Connecticut & and a DVR charge and any possible future programming increase if the ever happens to be one. Connecticut will now be charging a double tax one on programming (6%) and one on satellite (5%). Why is Dish starting to feel like cable all over again?

I agree with you there. The advantages I have seen Dish over DirecTv are becoming fewer and fewer. I am now wondering what the advantage is other than getting the SuperStations, lower basic programming package, and not having to have a basic package to order movie and other packages/channels.

This WILL cause a lot of existing customers not to upgrade their existing PVR receivers on their accounts. Maybe this is what Dish wants if they do have more money in the PVR receivers than what they charge for them.

It does not look good for some subscribers with these extra fees. $5-$10 here for PVR fees, extra taxes there on the satellite programming, thats gonna hurt!

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:17 PM

If they backstepped and said the DVR fee was only for those who recieved FREE hardware in that offering then I think most of us would quite down. But if I pay $200-$300 for a new 510, and have to pay PVR fee, there is nothing they can say to calm me down.

I think these DVR receivers should be cheaper if they are going to charge a monthly fee for the DVR features.

If they still make them the same price or more then why did they not charge for the DVR features in the first place? Why charge for them now and not before? Where is the justification for this charge all of a sudden?

Hard drive prices go down from time to time and they have put larger hard drives in receivers before without charging more money for the receiver and without charging for DVR. This should not be an excuse for the charge, especially if they charge for the DVR features on existing PVR/DVR receivers sold after 9/1/2003.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:19 PM

Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.

This is why I say we all should have some type of justificatio nfor this fee if these features are not added. Also dont you think that if we do not want the additional features that we should remain getting the features we get now for free if we have to pay full price for the receivers?

Dishboy

07-30-03, 04:21 PM

Dish subscriber since 1998.

Bought Dishplayer on first day announced.

Have been waiting patiently for superdish and 921.

Am now leaving E* for good-

Repeat after me-

I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE
I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE
I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:21 PM

Is the new receiver a dual tuner?

Now wouldn't it make you mad if they decided to charge you for the additional tuner AND the DVR Service??!! Why would anyone now think that they woud not charge an additional outlet fee if they are going to all of a sudden charge a DVR fee even on the 501, 508, and 721 receivers sold after 9/1/2003?

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:24 PM

I was planning to upgrade my 508 to a 522 but not now. Also I think I will go ahead and reduce my current programming from AT150 to AT100. Might as well start cutting corners now before they find something else to charge us for!

Maybe another thing the company is trying to do is find more advantages of ordering more programming and America's Everything Package but this sure is the wrong way to go about it. I wonder if they will raise the price on AEP to try to make up for not charging for the DVR fee on that package? Why wouldn't they if they try to squeeze this extra fee in the first place.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:26 PM

Charlie's got a set of grape fruits, charging for a single tuner with buggy software.

So does this mean that if they mess up their software and you have problems with your DVR service as a result that you will receive credit on your bill for the time that it is messed up until they fix their problems?

Bob Haller

07-30-03, 04:28 PM

The last time we saw this much negativity here was over the DP monthly fee expiring, That got delayed or cancelled. If this doesnt I am leaving and never recomending another person get E.

I must of sold them a thousands new subs mostly by word of mouth.

Multiply me by all the upset former E users:) Can they afford such a move?

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:31 PM

WHOA !!!!! Is this for real? In addition to purchasing my 921, rewiring my system, purchasing and installing a SuperDish, paying for additional HD programming (all of which I have resigned myself to do), I now have to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of having purchased a 921?

Even though I have America's Everything and am on CCAutoPay, this just really rubs me the wrong way. Major big time. :mad:

When is the HD-Tivo going to be introduced?

I am sure those that have preordered the 921 are going to be VERY TICKED after now hearing about this after they had ordered their receivers. I bet the number of orders goes down after this announcement. This is if the 921 does get the DVR fee as well.

Is this going to be a charge per receiver or account? I would think it would be per account unless they say that you have to get the dual tuner receiver to get it to more than one tv in the house.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:35 PM

Maybe the new receivers will receive new software to make it do name based recording and wish lists, etc ,like tivo. Then and only then can Dish justify any kind of fee for their "DVR" service. The no fee was a big reason for people to buy Dish in the first place. If they go that route I see a lot of people who will just jump ship in order to get a good receiver that has 2 tuners and is solid with tivo features.

Dish will now WILL be expected to add the name based recording and/or other features to justify this new charge. There is no excuse that I can think of not to add these features if they are going to collect all this money for the hardware and DVR services.

bills976

07-30-03, 04:39 PM

I think this thread means a bit more than what is seen on the surface.

Quite honestly I wouldn't hesitate to plunk down an extra $5/month for DirecTiVo service. I honestly think it's worth much more than the current $4.99 it costs right now. I really love the service that much.

Dish subs are going nuts over this. I haven't seen anything like this since I started lurking here in March '02. This tells me that either 1) Dish subs abhor price hikes, or 2) they feel like the product they've got isn't worth $5/month. Rather than the former, it seems like it's the latter.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:39 PM

$999 for the 921 AND $15.00 per month? (pvr fee and 2nd receiver fee)Not in this lifetime thank-you. For once I agree fully with all those angered by this marketing. I have never even thought of leaving Dish before, overall I have been satisfied, but this will certainly make me look at my options.

Maybe Dish will now say that if you can afford the receiver, you can afford the second outlet fee as well, similar to what was said on the last Tech Chat in which they figured you can afford the dish if you can afford the receiver. Perhaps this is why the are going to charge for the DVR fee, you can afford the receiver, you can afford the DVR fee as well. As for Dish DVR receivers not being cheaper, if they pay more for the basic systems then they must be willing to pay more for the DVR receivers/systems as well. Maybe they are just pushing the envelope to see how far they can go/what the market will allow until it is no longer acceptable and that they cannot compete doing these things.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:44 PM

Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.

My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.

Bob, I agree with you. This is not the same company I started becoming a retailer for four years ago. I have seen things take a turn and now they are going the other way.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:46 PM

buy our 522, save $4.99 a month on a second receiver. It'll only cost you $9.99 a month. :(

Would a savings of $4.99 be enough to sway you into buying the 522 even though they would end up charging you $4.99 anyways for the DVR fee? Is this how they are making up for them not getting additional outlet fees for these dual tuners?

MikeW

07-30-03, 04:48 PM

The numbers:

Cable TV + Locals 71 channels for $39.99 (including taxes) on 4 TVs.

Dish Network

AT100=$33.99
Locals= $5.99
3 extra receivers=$14.97
1 PVR Fee=$4.98

Total=$59.93

Dish had best stop touting the line of cable rates getting out of hand?

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:50 PM

Thanks, Scott. Interesting news, indeed. I've had my eye on Comcast lately to replace both my DSL and E*, and it's pretty obvious which way news like this will influence me to go (Comcast is running a very tasty promotion in our area).

I wonder if the cable companies will be charging this fee on their systems. I seen an article stating that 75% of their customers in the near future will have DVR/PVR/PTV receivers. I wonder if they would just raise their bills putting it in the cost of service without a choice but make it look like it is free since they are not charging extra for it just as they do with locals. Dish/Charlie would comment that they give you a choice whether to pay for PVR/DVR/PTV and locals whereas the cable company does not just as Charlie had mentioned before that they do not force you to buy locals if you do not want them.

Mark Holtz

07-30-03, 04:52 PM

Just so that Dish knows...

I just checked with two DirecTV dealers, and they are quoting me $300 for a HDVR2+2 additional receivers+triple LNB, and they are quoting me a 72 hour turnaround time.

dbronstein

07-30-03, 04:55 PM

I think E* has looked at what D* is charging and are interested in looking similar in fee schedules and services while still touting more HD and other extras. They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better, but MILLIONS of users out there have NO IDEA what the difference is and will never know any different. The steady flow of new subscribers always jumps around the holidays, so they need to get the fee speed bump out and over with so that there is no noise about come December.

The herding masses don't know and probably wouldn't see any difference between D*Tivo and DishPVR/DVR. Think about how many out there have cheap TVs, AM radio in the dash, and constantly rebooting PCs the kids use because the adults have no idea how it works. It's all Tivo to them if they can even figure out how to use it.

Exactly. Dish doesn't care if everyone on this site leaves. They are concerned about their 8 million other subs and all the millions of potential subs who really won't care about the fee and don't know the differences between Dish PVRs or Tivo.

Dennis

bills976

07-30-03, 04:56 PM

Just so that Dish knows...

I just checked with two DirecTV dealers, and they are quoting me $300 for a HDVR2+2 additional receivers+triple LNB, and they are quoting me a 72 hour turnaround time.

Orbitsat has that same system minus the triple LNB dish for $149.99. Valueelectronics has it with the triple LNB $199.96. All include installation.

Mike D-CO5

07-30-03, 04:57 PM

I wish someone could settle this once and for all: is name based software under a patent and if so can't Dish pay a license fee to Tivo to use it? When Dish starts charging these fees they will have plenty of money to pay a portion to use this software.

It looks to me that instead of Dish being a industry leader in satellite , digital video recording , hdtv etc, they are trying to emulate Directv and Cable with their additional fees. Hello , Dish made its fortune and market share being the low cost alternative to cable and Directv . Unless this money goes to improve and I mean improve the software to make Dish dvrs just as good as Tivo with all the extras , these fees are nothing more than a greedy move on their part.

I've got to say that as a loyal Dish customer since 96 or 97 , this really disappoints me. I have spent a large portion of time talking to friends , coworkers, and even strangers about Dish . I know it seems stupid but I even feel some emotional investment with this company. Everyone loves the underdog. I even went through the dishplayer fiasco and still stayed as a customer. I have had Directv since November of last year and I still perfer Dish to Directv.

Charlie lets look at some facts since last year. Dish has increased market share faster than Directv. Dish's stock is still going up even after the merger tanked. One of the ways to decrease customer churn is with a dvr ; it increases customer over all satisfaction and it vastly improves the customers ability to watch when and what they want to watch. Why oh why would you want to make the one thing that will keep customers happy and with your company to costly. Most people will stop even buying the dvr since it comes with a built in fee. This will hurt your bottom line in sales of new receivers. I have 3/508s and a 721 and would be interested in the 522 or even the 921 for hdtv someday. I would have never bought that many dvrs or pvrs if they came with an additional fee attached.

I have said it before and I say it again, there are better ways to get people to subscribe to your AEP than to black mail them with additional fees. Try offering them no dvr fees and no additional receiver fees if you sub to AEP. This will give you the advantage over cable and Directv and will establish you as a trail blazer in the sat business. You will also get more people to sub to your highest programming which will increase your bottom lline. Hell more people would love to have additional recievers at no fee and have those receivers be dvrs. Think how many people would switch to Dish if they had this option. More market share + more receivers = More $ for Dish and more happiness for their customers. You could still offer the fees like you have setup for the others who don't subscribe to AEP, 150,100, and top 50.

Please Charlie look at this suggestion you could take all this bad buzz about fees and turn it around for you and all your current and future customers. This might really work for you and I suggest you please look at this suggestion. It's not to late to turn this around .

Jacob S

07-30-03, 04:59 PM

Given DISH's record of software problems and limited features on their new (and not so new) PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service. Second, even if DISH does get their act together on the software they should NOT price the service higher than their competition (NOTHING justifies that). A price that matches their competition could be justified only if the service gets as good as the competition (looking at the 721 compared to the DirecTV TiVo they are a VERY LONG way from that). Third, they are pricing the service higher than cable systems' DVR service (at least MY cable system). Given the current bundling of services by the cable companies (cable, internet, DVRs and, next year, telephone service) why would anyone in an area like mine (with good cable service) choose DISH Network over cable or DirecTV (which has a DVR that works MUCH better than ANY DISH PVR/DVR)?

Boy dont I agree with you in so many ways along with so many others on this board in which have thought the exact same things I have (I made notes while I was away from the computer to post on this thread). The reason why Dish thinks they can get away with this is due to the sales they get in PVR. They sell more PVR's than their competition so they think they will get away with it. Even if they get fewer sales they could still make more money if they are collecting a fee for the DVR services.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:02 PM

Their pricing model may have legitimately determined that they can't keep supporting a "Free DVR/PVR". But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW.

Finally people are complaining more now about the software than they had before. I bet some are now complaining that have not complained before about the software after a fee is announced.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:04 PM

Existing customers who want to upgrade equipment will most likely not. :(

Because they probably do not want existing customers to upgrade because they say they have more in it than they sell them for plus reducing the cost less than what they usually sell it for, they will probably give existing customers a deal where you get free DVR service for being a good customer where before you would have gotten that anyways plus a better deal on the hardware.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:14 PM

Actually they don't know it yet but they did send me Directv's phone number last Sunday. With the start of the NFL Sunday Ticket promotion I got rid of my sad DISH subscription. I am just waiting for my $149.00 PVR508 with no commitment to arrive before I turn off their lousy picture and software.

[B]I just got the two 508's not long ago and got their 'special deal' on them but having to talk on the phone for hours day after day and having to wait almost three weeks to finally get them because of all their errors and then hearing about the 522 coming out I did not know whether to wait or not. Then I heard of a 510 coming out so I thought that maybe I should just sell them instead and now I hear of a charge for the DVR service on their services?

Either that would make me want to activate te 508 receivers seeing how I am now all of a sudden going to be getting such a good deal doing that and not get charged for DVR, or say the heck with it altogether and do what I was going to do a while back in which makes much much more sense now to me and probably to many others on this board. Buy software for my computer to do it and I can buy the size hard drive I want, upgrade whenever I want, and not worry about all those bugs. I could save enough not buying these DVR receivers and get enough out of the ones I have right now to pay for several hard drive upgrades, and maybe even buy a labtop computer to take with me if I wanted to travel. I would get charged no fee each month and could get an external hard drive(s). I could even record to DVD or DVD-RW to solve problems with taking up hard drive space.

I look at it this way, Dish made some mistakes even delivering the receivers and had horrible customer service then wants to try this kind of bull. Even though I would be grandfathered I would not be for further DVR products and the new ones I was taking interest in, and with the hours wasted on the phone those receivers are mine to do whatever I want with whether I want to activate or sell to someone else even though they intended on them being activated after getting a deal on them, unless there is something I dont know about and that they require you to activate them but I was not told any such thing.

DarrellP

07-30-03, 05:20 PM

I just called Dish and cancelled my CC Autopay. My account is good through Aug 11th then it's Bye-Bye Dish, grandfathered or not. Dish if you are reading this, you just lost a customer of 6 years over a stinking $10/month fee. Put that on your bottom line. :mad:

Now, who wants to buy a 501 on August 11th? I am going to sell my PVR and buy the Panasonic DMR E80 and timeshift my locals off my 6000, I don't need Dish, I have about a bazillion DVD's to catch up on.

Darkman

07-30-03, 05:23 PM

Darrell - i think you should change your Signature now :)

spanishannouncetable

07-30-03, 05:27 PM

DarrellP, here's the plan -

- Pay Dish Network month-to-month until the HD DirecTiVos are announced.
- Check with Value Electronics and see what sort of new-Directv-subscriber deal you can get with a HDTiVo at that time.
- Sell your 501 at a fair price to the guy who gave you the idea :D (not for me - my parents could use it)

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:29 PM

This is a good deal for new subs because they are getting a DVR510 and 301 for $49 down and a $49 credit on their first bill, for many it will be worth paying $0, $4.98 or $9.99 and a 2-year commitment for this deal. This will not effect current DVR 501/508 and 721 subs, you will still get your DVR service for Free. For us who want to upgrade to a new DVR, this really Sucks, unless E* offers us some heavily discounted deal, better then the one they offer now, which I suspect will eventually happen, probably also with a 2-year commitment and Credit-card auto pay. A lifetime subscription option would be nice too. If D* would add Chattanooga locals I would consider switching for a D*TIVO.

What about those that want to purchase a lifetime DVR service? Will they offer that? Would they reduce the price of the receivers enough to make up for what the lifetime DVR service would be? Most likely NOT!!! Will they even lower the price of the DVR's at all? Perhaps they may reduce the price enough to get a lot more buyers and then the fee will make them more money if they sell enough of these DVR's in bulk. Perhaps they could even make all the receivers in the future DVR and they want to get people used to the DVR fee again before doing so even though they are still coming out with the 111 and 311.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:34 PM

cj9788 said: I am reading this thread and shaking my head. I cant really add more every one has really hit the nail on the head. To make sure I under stand correctly I would have to buy my new DVR before 9/1/03 to be grandfathered in??? There is no chance in Heck that the 522 will be out by then. So if all of this is true then I will resign my self to another 508 and be done with it.

Well I am going to going out on a limb and guess that no new DVR receivers will be out before 9/01/2003 because if they do they will not be able to get the DVR fees for them.

minnow

07-30-03, 05:40 PM

SParker

07-30-03, 05:44 PM

Hello Dish Network,

The public has answered your so called idea, they don't like it. You still have time to change your minds. Do the right thing Dish! You will feel better for doing so.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 05:57 PM

The huge shocker for me is that this fee is per receiver you own. I have 3 DTivo's and pay $4.99 for the PVR fee for all of them. I also can pick them up for $150 each or almost free as a new customer. I find it short sighted and stupid on their part in charging for a inferior product, and yes it is inferior as I have seen them all in action.

What? For Each receiver??? Is Dish CRAZY??? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: I guess its byebye DishPVR, DishPTV, DishDVR, whatever the heck they want to call it. Dumb, STUPID, dont tell me its for development if they are going to be charging so much more than the competition if they are going to charge per receiver. What about those that have a Dishplayer and going to get one of these DVR receivers in the future? Even if they did not do it per receiver I am sure they would charge an extra fee for the Dishplayer and the DVR since the Dishplayer's PTV is outsourced to Microsoft.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 06:05 PM

Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?

I would think that if they grandfather the receiver and allow the next owner to have free DVR functionality then these receivers would carry a premium above what they were going for. I would also think that more would purchase these receivers now before the fee comes.

Why would someone even buy one of those DVR receivers if they had no additional functionality or features than basic receiver without the DVR functionality? They figure if someone purchases that receiver they will purchase that functionality as well but would not force the consumer to do so.

Chris Freeland

07-30-03, 06:08 PM

Now wouldn't it make you mad if they decided to charge you for the additional tuner AND the DVR Service??!! Why would anyone now think that they would not charge an additional outlet fee if they are going to all of a sudden charge a DVR fee even on the 501, 508, and 721 receivers sold after 9/1/2003?

If E* did this that would be the last straw for me, I would likely switch to D* if this happens. If E* does not charge an extra fee for that 2nd tuner, which hopefully they will not, I could replace both of my current receivers with the new 522 and would pay virtually the same monthly price.

Big D

07-30-03, 06:18 PM

As an owner of a fair number of Echostar shares I should probably be happy that the revenue stream will be increasing, however I am certain that the DVR fee approach is not going to go over well with the mases, much less us here at dbstalk.com. PVR/DVR technology will someday displace VCRs in the average home and now is the appropriate time to start the push to effect that shift by E*, so I do not fault them in making a bold move. A bold move is called for in that cable and D* are sure making noises that they are getting ready to do the same. VCRs have a monthly fees, neither do DVD players and their acceptance is near universal. Charge monthly fees for using a product that cost a lot more than the technology it is replacing and most will stay away. Market DVRs as the next best thing to hit consumer electronics since the DVD, position it so that the public understands it will replace the VCR, price it right and MAKE IT EASY to switch and it will happen. Stumble at the gate and it will continue to be the niche product it is today.

I like most (if not all of) the facts to be in before I make up my mind on something, learned long ago it does not pay to get all fired up over something before you really know all the facts. Not all of the facts are in on this yet, but maybe enough to be able to make a call on it. Each of us has to make that call on their own, however for me what I need to know is this:

If I buy a 921 for the Charlie Chat announced pricing of $999.00, then pay $4.99 for an additional receiver, add $4.98 for the DVR fee and ~$10.00 for a HD programming package, I believe I could do much better with the Comcast 6200 series HD PVRs as it stands right now. HD, and it's required recording capability (at least for me) will just be to expensive from E*. I am already smarting from the cost of my 6000, plus 8VSB, plus 8PSK, plus legacy adapter, plus my 721 (which I really do like even if it was expensive), the DishPro LNBF/SW34 upgrade I put in, plus...well you get the idea. I have a lot of money invested in my E* equipment and do not look forward to another >$1,000 investment for a 921 that comes with monthly fees plus the addition of a SuperDish at a still undisclosed price. When I invested in DishPro and the 8PSK module, I did so based on what Charlie and company promised, that the only equipment I would need for HD from them going forward was the 8PSK, now we know different (SuperDish). When I pre-ordered my 921, I did so with the belief I would not have monthly fees, now I know different.

What will quiet me down? A package deal for existing subscribers that includes a SuperDish upgrade, a 921 and a product lifetime sans DVR fees, all for $999.00. That is what I though I was going to pay in May, that is all I want to pay now.

'nough said...

DarrellP

07-30-03, 06:19 PM

Development? Hell, if they would hire some competent programmer's who could get it done right the first time, they wouldn't have these exhorbitant development fees.

Charlie must need a new yacht or Lear jet or something or else the entire corporate heads are smoking crack these days.

Kill the fee, Dish, I am dumping you.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 06:32 PM

I think those that are going to purchase the 921 receiver should not be charged a DVR fee. I wonder how long they planned on charging this fee anyways.

I also think if they do charge a DVR fee on the 921 that they should waive the fee when HD programming is ordered to encourage people to buy this expensive receiver.

Also how much are people going to put up with? New satellite tax in some states, new DVR fee, smart card swap headaches that will probably come as well, and then I can see the price increases to Top100 and Top150 coming next year as well, in which I am almost sure that will happen next year since the Top50 had a promise not to increase it until 2005 and Top100 and Top150 did not. I bet the Top100 will become $34.99 and Top150 will become $44.99. Add $4.99 for your DVR fee folks. That gives you a pretty round number on pricing. Then add $5.99 for locals unless you subscribe to Top50 in which is going to be $9.99 for the DVR service anways so no win there.

Big D

07-30-03, 06:32 PM

I see my post above was my 100th, making me a legend, well I really doubt that!! :nono:

I do see that Echostar has a news release out on this here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030730/1828001648_1.html

In the release it quotes Make Lumpkin that the AT100 package will be $9.99 a month, whereas we here from Mark in an email to Scott earlier in the thread that AT100 would be $4.98. So which is it?

toad57

07-30-03, 06:47 PM

I wonder if the cable companies will be charging this fee on their systems. I seen an article stating that 75% of their customers in the near future will have DVR/PVR/PTV receivers.

Charlie says DVRs are complicated and will be a minority of our business (see post 102 in this thread)

No Charlie, DVRs are not more complicated than a VCR*- what VCR gives you a list of shows that have been recorded, or keeps its own tapes inside? You don't have to ensure 'a tape is ready' with a DVR!

If the CATV industry sees the DVR as a 'cash cow' then why don't you? With the right kind of advertising touting the benefits of a DVR you could attract a ton of new subscribers! Once you use a DVR you won't want to watch TV any other way. (If any of you know who Dick Orkin (http://www.radio-ranch.com/spots.htm) is you can pretty much imagine a great radio commercial of him using clunky VCR -vs- a modern DVR)

Charlie, you have said they (DVR customers) are a 'stickier' customer; well they won't be for long if you keep this up. If you insist on a PVR fee, at least make it less than what has been stated here, so maybe the existing users that are hoping to upgrade to a 522 or 921 won't just say 'screw it' and leave Echostar for DirecTV/Tivo.

*Well, a 'bug free' PVR is what I am refering to... my Dishplayer has lost more recordings in mere seconds compared to how many tapes any of my VCRs ever 'ate'; having to deal with various Dishplayer faux pas is what made it complicated, when it works as designed it gets my 'easier to use than a VCR' label.

Jacob S

07-30-03, 06:52 PM

Until your 501/508 dies, and they want to replace it with either a 510 (along with collecting the $5 monthly fee) or a fee-free 301.

Decisions, decisions :nono2:

They will give you a refurbished 501/508 receiver. They already tried pulling crap on me by trying to give me a refurbished 301 in place of my 721!!! Can you believe that? This is after they ship it to the wrong address!!! Then they do not ship out the 508's as promised then they ship them to the wrong address too, nothing but the runaround!!!

Jeff_R

07-30-03, 06:53 PM

hehe - in "considered official" - i still do not see a mention about 522s and 921s....

hmmmm

Any "considered offical" word on those yet? :p

It says "Starting with the 510 and going forward". The 522 is basically an enhanced 510, and the 921 will be out after that.

Why does everyone keep asking if this will apply to the 921? It's not out yet, won't be out until very late this year or early next year, therefore will be out later than the 510. It is definately included in the pricing structure.

Jeff

Jacob S

07-30-03, 07:13 PM

Two quick questions to Jacob S; Why do you feel the need to have multiple sequential posts. Can you say what you want to say in just one single post and secondly, is what you have to post of such importance that it needs to be in bold ? I've read some of your comments and I personally don't think they are of such significance that the print needs to be in bold.

Sorry for putting it in bold. I done that because of all the text and usually do not do this but in this case I have because of all the text to differentiate the reply from what I am replying to.

Also if I were to say all of that in one post it would be so long, whew. I wanted to split it up into subjects and get different responses and to reply to the different subjects instead of a big long post.

UpOnTheMountain

07-30-03, 07:16 PM

After 5 years of being a faithful Dish customer, I finally give up.
The TIVO product is superior, and the lure of very low switch over cost and good return on equipment is very stong.
I will now begin looking for deals to replace my DishPlayer, 501 and 721 on three sat set-up.
Dish just pushed a loyal customer who has "everything but the kitchen sink" (sink=foriegn channels) and who loves to purchase the next best receiver ... out the door.
I am AEP and cc autopay. but change is good ...
Now where is that DirecTV deals thread ... ???

scooper

07-30-03, 07:31 PM

SParker

07-30-03, 07:36 PM

You mean E* is taking a major doodoo with this idea? I agree 100%!!!!

I'd say #2 pretty much hits it on the head, at least for me...

rtt2

07-30-03, 07:44 PM

Just came back from Circuit City and am amazed how cheap it is to get set up for a new system. On the display unit they had a barker channel playing describing all the benefits of the DirecTivo. It is a customized production made by DirecTV touting TIVO and all the Benefits and exploring you to try it out. It seems DirecTV is pushing PVRs really hard for all new subscribers.
D* is going to have a field day poaching subscribers in the coming months. I have just a little bit more time with my commitment to E* but when that time is up I imagine there will be some good promotions going on. I am going to need at a minimum 4 set-tops.

dinkster

07-30-03, 07:51 PM

I'm not going to dump Dish today. I will continue with my 6000 and 2 dishs until the HD-Tivo is introduced. This go around, I'm going to properly audition the HD-Tivo and give this unit a really serious look. There are issues with DirectTV as well such as HD signal compression. Available HD programming will be a factor, but most likely not the principal criteria in the decision.

I will carefully compare PVR features, problems, PQ, and the cost to install and monthly costs of each service provider. They will compete for my business.

The tragic part for Dish, is that they already had my complete loyalty.

And now they do not.

sampatterson

07-30-03, 07:58 PM

Sounds like a bad move on Dish's part. This was their one big differentiator for DVRs. No "name based" recording, but its free. If they does this with the 921 also it would really suck. I hope they change their minds on this.

ocnier

07-30-03, 08:12 PM

ODE TO A SAD MAN'S LAMENT:
Well, fellas after watching this bulliten board for a little over two years and a being a combination dish customer for 3 years and a directv customer for 4 with the ala carte sunday ticket service searching for just the right mix of equipment, service offering, price points and channel availability. I think that the hammer has finally fallen on for the death knell for straddling the fence and for one of the big two. I have been mainly loyal about dish and mainly perturbed directv, but now everything has changed. IT IS TRULY A SAD DAY FOR DISH, but before I tell you of my final outcome, please let me tell you of my dream/plan

I was waiting patiently for the 921 to come out (christmas was just around the corner). I was an nfl fiend, and fortunately thanks to paul tagliabue and his insistence on "ALA CARTE SERVICE" my plans were soon to come to fruition thanks to a gift consisting of a directv HD samsung reciever. I would indeed have "MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!!!!!!!!", but alas due to the tragedy that would befall my beloved Dish network my plans would be rent asunder. I had only dreamed that had the 921 come out as I planned that my bill would be shall say perfect. Now those plans and dreams are no more. I can no longer savor the sweet taste of finally being able to stick it to the man (directv) and thier god$#%n dvr fees. "Etu Brute Etu"............ "oh the humanity".

And now good gentlemen I must bid you adue as I have just called dish and cancelled thier monkey asses. (Ergen take that to the bank you greedy bast%#d). I am now struck down to the directv abyss of tivo HD, consigned there by Echostar's misbegottnen gains of late.

Fare the well my friends................

scooper

07-30-03, 08:25 PM

THere's no reason to leave this BB -

shilton

07-30-03, 08:42 PM

Sure...Dish says that there will be no fee to the users of the 501's and the 508's etc...BUT FOR HOW LONG??? I have had my 501 for 2 years now since they first rolled out and I can tell you the day I have to pay for it, it gets unplugged and in goes a new receiver without recording capabilities and my vcr gets hooked back up too. I have been a loyal customer but this gets my goat...remember all the chats where Charlie said our PVR is FREE and always will be!!! I know I heard that. Besides, what are they charging for anyway? Once you buy the equipment aside from the occasional software upgrades what expense does Dish have in them? Basically all they want to do is gouge you because they feel they can on this, but I wonder how many of the 8 million customers will contunie to pay for things like this? I already pay a $4.99 per month second receiver fee so enough is enough. I won't pay extra for PVR...will you???