Dont trust installers

[Rich1234]

I recently got DirecTV, new install with a Phase 3 dish, free professional installtion.

I have 2 TVs hooked up to it.

I have DirecTV & limited basic cable.

After experiencing a lot of rain fade I decided to do some troubleshooting.

I replaced all diplexers (ASKA SCS-4TG) that the "professional" put in with new (AVI 35SDX-100) diplexers and on both TVs, every transponder went up at LEAST 4 points, two transponders went up 7 points!

Now I'm going to check the rest of the set up and see what else the so-called "professional installer" slacked on.

[SouthernSky]

I'm not so sure I can believe this is an installer issue. While the choice of diplexers was probably left up to his company, it is not economically feasible to use "only the premium-priced stuff." We tend to use the most expensive connectors (the only failure point we ever have) but use minimum NEC-rated generic goods to accomplish an install. Two service calls in two years is our claim to fame and most of our business is referrals.

If an installer was to use the most expensive part, whether it be diplexers, ground blocks, cabling, f-connectors, conduit, ground clamps, etc., there is very little to be made on a job that is usually paid at a flat rate by DirecTV, DISH or an installation company.

Does that mean cheap stuff will always fail and the higher priced items will not? Of course not. Often because it has a well known brand name on it, it costs double what the generic part does. The higher priced goods can easily take an extra $15-25 out of an installers pocket since he must often provide the supplies. Higher priced parts do NOT make a quality install.

Four points on a transponder is insignificant overall. There could be many reasons for this and it is but one link in the chain. It doesn't mean your installer did not meet the requirements set forth by the people who issued him the work order or the recommended standards of the programming vendor. Whether it be DISH or DirecTV, 70-75 is the minimum reading but I know of no installers who won't be pushing 95-98 on DirecTV and 110-115 on DISH, depending upon location and elevation angle.

Most installers give a warranty. If your warranty is still in effect, call him back if you are unhappy with the service.

[waydwolf]

Excellent supplies are availible for reasonable amounts from Perfect 10, the largest DBS installation supplier out there. They carry some very good diplexors that can carry digital cable, cable modem, and stacked DBS ON THE SAME LINE. They also carry a range of cable from their usual brand as well as Remee and Belden.

Do most installers buy that? NO.

They buy the cheapest crap they can get away with and pass the savings on to themselves.

If you knew how badly screwed the average installer is on pay, you'd know why.

FWIW, I always use either Thomas&Betts SnapNFit or Gilbert Ultraseal fittings, NEVER use boots, always ground properly, and use the top diplexors and DBS splitters for complex work. I also have to explain the reasons to customers and charge more than the average guy. But having ethics in business is worth it if you can look at yourself in the mirror afterwards. I couldn't if I was the kind of con-man many of my peers are.

[Jtater]

The crap that installation companies pull is rediculous. There are installers in my area who now ground apartment installs to receptacle grounds. I don't whos idea this was but I have seen a few installs where a #10 ground wire snakes under a door and is then bonded to the nearest outlet. I was replacing a panel in the same apartment as an installer who was grounding in the same fashion. I asked why he was installing in that manner and was quickly told that was the only "proper" way to bond the installation to the electrical service. I would like to be there when the inspectors I deal with on a daily basis see that kind of "proper" bonding. There are good installers around but they seem to be few and far between. At the time of my Phase III upgrade I had to explain to the installer why he couldn't hook 2 leads from the Phase III to the existing Eagle Aspen 3 x 4 multi. A short period of time later I had an install appointment for my new Tivo. This guy wasn't much more intelligent than the first. Adding the Tivo required a 4 x 8 multi to be installed. The guy shows up with a powered 4 x 8 multi but didnt bother to bring the ac adapter. So the guy goes back to get the power supply, gets back and realizes I don't have an outlet outside for him to connect the power supply to. At this point he was ready to scrap the install and come back later with a self powered multi. About the third time I explained that he could just install an additional wall plate and back feed the power through another piece of coax he finally started to grasp the idea. At this point I was very irritated and went to my truck, got my own tools and finished his install for him while he watched. But like I said there are good installers out there, getting one to your house is the hard part.

[Jacob S]

If you are only a Dish Network Retailer can you still purchase from Perfect 10 for only satellite supplies or can you not go through them if you already go through a different distributor?

[SouthernSky]

I am a DISH retailer but still purchase all my supplies, except DISH specific parts, from Perfect-10.

[waydwolf]

The problem is created by the DBS industry's attitude, most especially that put out by DirecTV. They are still positioning and marketing based on a comparison of analog cable which was pretty much technically mature before 1980 and present day all-digital DBS.
This is of course totally insane given that modern cable systems have the bandwidth, cost, and efficiency advantage and where it doesn't, DBS isn't bothering to exploit. They are still basing their main point on cost in defiance of the old adage that "you get what you pay for".
Again this is insane when you consider their financials are far from rosy(I ask again, do you think GM would spin DTV to Murdoch if they thought it was a monster profit center?), installation has a definite manpower and overhead cost, and they don't pay less for content(HBO, Disney, DIY, whatever) than cable does.This all means that you have an installation corp paid on the cheap, and poorly trained if at all. Scam artistry isn't just ignored, but encouraged. DTV and E* BOTH were encouraged YEARS ago to contractually forbid subcontracting in installations without specified contracts and verifiable reasons for commission splits, but have ignored it.

It is extremely common for work to be sent from major dish dealers to one of several major "clearinghouses" which themselves have as little as NO direct installation employees, which take a chunk off the top of what the dealer and/or DTV or E* pay for the installation, and often those who take the jobs, take four or five times as many jobs as ten men could do, and in states they don't actually operate in, and subcontract them down further while taking a cut off the top for themselves.

By the time an installer gets the job and does it, he may be paid as little as $40 for a job for which he paid all of the cost of materials, his own truck and ladder and tools, gas, as well as vehicle and liability and workmen's comp insurance.

Installers are STRONGLY, PASSIONATELY ENCOURAGED to "upsell" at ALL opportunities. I've worked with guys who weakly did as instructed by our common contract source to claim no line of sight and offer a post mount and trenching or mast and tripod mount for $150-$600 whenever we could find someone desperate enough to say yes. I NEVER did or EVER will.

Also, installers are to this day, despite growing insistance by DTV and E*, in many many cases NOT grounding correctly, which includes not bothering to ground as well as installing non-NEC compliant ground rods. Few if any ever bother to weatherproof their building penetration, including where cable passes through walls and the roof where the bolts are driven. Most don't bother to secure their cabling in straight vertical and horizontal lines. Many don't use proper size lag bolts to secure the foot.

Asked to explain the workings of DBS, most are miserably uninformed and couldn't tell you a thing about frequencies, polarization, voltage, etc.

Combine all this and you get the present picture of the DBS installation industry.

Change can ONLY come when: A union is formed which will no longer stand for subcontracting scams and hold out for proper pay on the level of that actually credited by DTV and E* and not a penny less. $40 out of as much as $200 is unacceptable by any standard when you consider none of the people between the installer and DTV or E* do one damn thing to earn ANY cut. A technical association NOT controlled or influenced by any one or more DBS vendors is established and stood behind by the bulk of installers and the above mentioned union, which will strengthen and deepen the technical understanding of installers with certification and training that actually has real value.Will any of this actually happen? Probably not any time soon. There's legions of would-be installers ready to take a pittance per install on the scam theory that they can still make large bucks in volume. Volume which requires short installation times which don't take into account times required by basic tasks to do the job right, IF everything goes perfectly, much less leaving a margin for problems which can and DO happen.

Many of us do good work and work hard and smart, and will cut customers slack and help. MOST do not and are NOT encouraged to do so by DTV, E*, or their contract sources, or put in a position where they can without great financial and temporal loss to themselves.

[Mark Holtz]

So, since I don't like to get on the roof, how do I know if I have a good installer or a bad installer?

[oljim]

Look for one that does not like to get on the roof, the roof is the last place it should be.

[waydwolf]

Look for one that does not like to get on the roof, the roof is the last place it should be.
This is not true. The actual rule is that it should be placed high enough to deter easy interference and vandalism, while as low as possible to achieve a line of sight which given local plant growth and construction averages will remain clear to ten degrees or better on all sides for at least five years.

In the northeast, if you're an honest installer, you will in suburban and rural settings fail as many as two out of every three installs for NLoS(No Line of Sight). Most successful installs go at least as high as the top of the second story and I've gone to the top of five story homes with two ladders, one at ground and one on the roof of an upper level porch.

Most dips will gladly fail almost nothing all fall and winter, aiming dishes right through leafless trees and come spring... oops. No dish for you. They are of course long gone, long since paid, and beyond backcharging.

[beegfoot]

It has never ceased to amaze me that on this board so many posts condemn shoddy installations and installers, yet in the same breath they tell everyone to buy at some of the big internet dealers. Who do you think causes many of these shoddy installs?

When they give you a 4 tv system for free, who do you think is really paying for your system? Or do you think DTV dealers get the equipment for free?

Duh! The installer is at the bottom of the food chain. The money comes from him first! The company has to make an acceptable markup on their product. So they drop the fees paid the installer first. I have seen some companies paying $40. for a primary and $15. for additional outlets. And you expect quality?

Buy cheap, get cheap.

[Richssat]

Exactly.

Wow, for once I actually agree with Satwolf.

There has to be some big changes in the industry or it will not survive. SBCA certification is not the answer. All it seems to be successful in is getting the more money out of the bottom of the food chain (the installer) for something that isn't worth the paper it is printed on. When I took my SBCA certification class/test, we had a guy in there with 3 weeks experience. He was not the sharpest tool in the shed, yet he managed to pass the test. After cleaning up several of his installs it occurred to me this guy had no clue what he was doing.

As a tech who has been in the industry since before all this crap started getting real bad, it saddens me to see what it has become. I used to really bend over back wards to try to make customers happy and make installs as perfect as humanly possible. Now I find myself cutting corners to increase my workload (complete more jobs in a day) so I can afford to eat and put gas in my truck so I can keep working.

Most installation houses expect you to be able to complete a 1 receiver install in 1 1/2 hours. They add an extra half hour for each additional receiver. That is all the time I get paid for. I am often short scheduled, meaning I have 8 hours of scheduled work that really will take almost 12 hours to complete. Start the day with a large, complicated install, and you are playing catch up all day. :ramblinon

For some reason the 6 day work week is an industry standard (dunno what nut case thought that was a good idea). If I add up the time spent out in the field, doing paperwork, maintaining my equipment, procuring materials etc, subtract all the costs (insurance, gas, materials, depreciation, office supplies, accounting and so on and so forth) I wind up with a per hour pay rate somewhere near what the 17 year old kid at burgerrama makes. :nono2:

I have made a decision to explore other options, kind of sad since despite all the nonsense in the industry, I still enjoy what I do for a living. I just can't continue living in it.

:rant:

Rich

[Jacob S]

That is why sometimes they allow you to charge extra for more difficult installations that are beyond basic but sometimes to do the job right it does take more time. When some have told me how many installs they have done a day or per week it made me wonder how they could do so many in such a short period of time.

[Richssat]

This is true, we are allowed to charge for "non standard" installations BUT most (if not all) of the retailers omit the "basic" part of the free installation when selling the systems to the customers. They will promise everything under the sun, from free H/T system installs, HDTV antennas, you name it.

Some retailers (ones like a company we broke our contract with) even go so far as to tell the customers " everything included with the satellite installation is free, do not let the tech tell you otherwise, they will try to rip you off". One instance a customer was told to watch the installer closely since " they are not our employees, they are generally a bad group of people and may try to steal things from your home". :mad2:

The retailers also do not pay techs for visits to customers houses where installation is not possible. They know that since we don't get paid for the trip we are more likely to give in to customers requests, least the install get aborted. Trust me, it sucks to drive 90 miles one way, only to be greeted by a custom install that the customer simply refuses to pay for , and have to face a choice of either leaving totally empty handed, or bowing down to the customers request and making some money off the job. :icon_lame

That is the state of affairs in this business, and consumers wonder why they get such lousy service from satellite techs. IMO it is going to get worse, much worse.

Rich

[waydwolf]

This is exactly why cable contracting pays so much better. $20 for a digital reconnect and $30 for a new install with $15 per additional outlet is a fairly common range and in some systems with a promotion going, you can do well over $200 in a day within a contiguous three town area. Even auditing and sweeps pay decently.

DBS can have you running all over an entire state. For those who know CT, imagine doing eight installs scattered from Kent to Norwalk to East Haven to Stonington to Wallingford to Windsor Locks all in a single day. I've done that and worse.

Still cable is not the solution if you're looking for security as contracts tend to expire every year and you tend to get nickled and dimed down a bit each time until your work suffers and your contract is terminated at which point you move on to a system that pays what you started with in the former one.

What installers need to do is get control of the consumer residence TV wiring, pre-wiring new construction and post wiring existing buildings for both digital cable and DBS, and supporting both, exclusively. The cable installer should have nothing more to do than reconnecting at the tap and a customer who gets DBS should automatically call their wiring support tech who did it to begin with. If every house was dual-prewired and every house had a mast and mount pre-installed at the optimum line of sight waiting for a dish to be placed on it, things would be much improved for we installers.

BTW guys, supporting cable is extremely important as DBS snobbery doesn't go over well. People want choice and if you tell them A, they will resent it generally and automatically choose B even if B isn't really what they want. Pre-wiring extra CAT3 for DSL and phone and CAT5 for Ethernet is also good. Covering all the bases for getting data, voice, and video is where the future is at for us. We can't let the DBS or cable companies let us be pitted against the other and we can't not support DSL as opposed to DirecWay or cable modem. Choices are what customers want, not marketing b.s..

[PSB]

Most of what is said above is true, but there are good installers out there if you know where to find them (www.dbsinstall.com would be a good start) I still think the lower the dish the better, we can get two or three feet of snow here in MN.! You want the dish someplace where you can wipe it off/upgrade, if at all possible. As for how many installs can be done in one day, I do two per day MAX! Some days I am home early before rush hour, other days I think I am the last guy in town to be getting home from work, but the jobs are done RIGHT first time every time, no customers left un-educated or un-activated. As I say to many of my older customers "dont worry I wont be leaving until you tell me to leave and you are compleatly happy with your install and know how to work it" and I guarantee my installs for a full year, why? Because I Know I wont need to go back, EVER! Greed seems to be the big problem as pointed out above. Honesty? I have never so much as stole an extra nut or bolt from a customer, I treat all my customers as if they are my parents, and you dont what to know what I would do to any one who ripped off them! I recently done an install in a large chain motel, I was running some cable through a closet and I seen what I thought was two grocery bags stuffed full of what seemed to be $20 and $50 bills, I touched against the bag and sure enough they were full of cash, I did not even think of taking one bill...If I cant earn it I dont want it!......so not all installers are crooks! Some take pride in their work and are in this industry for the love of it. I have also worked in cable/modem installation, where the techs kick every dish they come across : ) So if you ever find your dish has suddenly moved, now you know why!