Dish DVR fee - a futile attempt?

[Peluso]

I simply can't help but think that the new DVR fee is simply a backwards step to the trend that will allow the digital recorders to become a mainstream product in everyones home.

I can almost guarantee the American consumer will never embrace the Tivo's of the world with any sort of true mass acceptance when it comes with a monthly fee. The old argument of 'pride of ownership' rears it's ugly head. Think DIVX rentals from circuit city...

There are two scenarios I see blowing the doors off the PVR monthly fee. 1) Some super discount outfit like Apex coming out with a $100 PVR/DVD combo product with no monthly fee. 2) The proliferation of Hard Drives in other consumer equipment.

My reasoning for #1: current bottom of the barrel DVD's are $40 to $50.. the cost of a DVR is primarily in the Hard Drive. Low end hard drives are in that same area: $50 or $60 each or less in bulk. Take software from an open source DVR project... modify it to work on the least expensive hardware platform you can put together and there you go....

My reasoning for #2: Constant pressure if going to slowly move the market to more 'add in features'. This is evidenced by the proliferation of Home Theater in a Box systems, DVD's with Basic recorders built in, RCA's HDTV's that include a DVD player, and the growing section in our electronics stores with regular TV's with built in VCRs or DVDs . etc... Eventually the Hard drive is going to be a component of the TV that's purchased. We are only a couple of years away when Hard Drives that allow for 20+ hours of HDTV recording being in the $50 range.

Still the PVR is a Niche market right now, which is why the fees persist. Dish was ahead of the pack, now they have slowed so they are running with the pack. It's sad to see.

[Jacob S]

I think its only a matter of time until they will be available for a cheaper price produced in bulk in a lot of the major chain stores like Wal-Mart. This will bring down prices for the hard drives if more are being purchased and available for a cheaper price.

[oblio98]

What is the basis for the fee? I mean, why do they feel they can charge a fee for something like this? I jumped all over the 721 because there was no fee, and I can't see why there should be. I mean, there is no "service" provided....

[Jacob S]

The only good thing about this fee on the new DVR is that those that have the older PVR receivers will be more likely to rid of the old stock and also get a premium out of these receivers, even the used ones, due to the money that would be saved not having to pay that DVR fee on the new receivers.

[Bob Haller]

Well I will aucion my PVRs, since I will get D and not eed the boxes.

FREE PVR with some bugs was fine. Charge for it and I want flawless service.

[Jacob S]

Seems like more of a reason to get rid of Dish PVR/DVR since it seems to be more rewarding getting more out of the hardware to get hardware cheaper elsewhere.

[Richard King]

1) Some super discount outfit like Apex coming out with a $100 PVR/DVD combo product with no monthly fee. Where is the program guide going to come from on this combo product? The program guide is an integral part of the funcionality of any PVR system and is provided by the maker of the PVR. A PVR without a program guide isn't a PVR.

[Peluso]

Easy answer: Gemstar Guide +... or some other alternative. All you have to do is throw an advertising panel on there and the cost for the guide is minimal if not non-existant. I have never paid for the guide that came with my all-in-wonder. Service is great. All we are talking about here is a listing of TV programs and some space on a company website or a contract with someone like AOL who is needing there banks of dialup modems less and less. I'm sure the folks at AOL would be happy to get a little more revenue out of the modems in the middle of the night.

[Jacob S]

All-in-wonder sounds like a good choice right now. Gemstar or guide from the internet/phone connection would be a good way to get the guide but I would say that Gemstar would work best. What about the VCR+ codes? Wouldnt there be a code before each show starts and that could be used to record the show and you could look up the code in a TV Guide or on the internet or something?

[Peluso]

All-in-wonder is almost perfect. If the company would just add a ATSC and 256-QAM tuner, I would be the happiest man on earth (assuming you could record the shows as well). This would truly be the perfect basis for a HTPC. It would also, be something that helps bring about the end of the DVR fees.

I was in my local computer store today and saw a new product. It's a computer case that looks almost exactly like a little shelf system stereo. It even had a am/fm radio. That got me thinking about the convergence of PC's and HT equipment again.

[Jacob S]

Is there anywhere on the internet where I can compare the different PC PVR products with their functionality, prices, and availabilities?

[Peluso]

I don't know of any, but that would be a great chart to have. If you find somewhere, please let us all know where it is.

[mjschuyler]

Peluso, wouldn't buying an other box, adding it on to your system,downloading a guide, setting up timers etc be worth $9.99 or $4.99 a month? Or if you subbed to the "everything package" it would be free anyway. Plus E* is grandfathering existing subs.

I do disagree with a fee for every receiver but isn't this fee aimed at new subs that get their equipment free or highly subsidized and current subs with minimal programming?

I also agree that E* PVR's are not as functional as D*. You could easily recover your E* equipmnt cost by selling your E* equipment and replacing it with D* so it would seem the only reason to stay with E* would be programming issues.

I'm not leaving E* as I have a RV waiver for East & West Coast nets. Locals are not available in CT on E*. D* has locals but I would also loose WSBK Boston for Bruins and minor leaque hockey.

[Jacob S]

This is why those that want to stay with E* but want another choice should be able to choose a PC PVR. There are benefits to a PC PVR but its not for everyone. There are also benefits for the Dish and DirecTv PVR's.

[Unthinkable]

I'm not leaving E* as I have a RV waiver for East & West Coast nets. Locals are not available in CT on E*. D* has locals but I would also loose WSBK Boston for Bruins and minor leaque hockey.

UPN38 formerly WSBK no longer shows Boston Bruins hockey. They do some Red Sox games now while NESN handles the majority of Boston Bruins telecasts and occasionally shows Providence Bruins AHL games.

[Peluso]

Peluso, wouldn't buying an other box, adding it on to your system,downloading a guide, setting up timers etc be worth $9.99 or $4.99 a month?

Actually no. That's the problem with the whole PVR/DVR/Tivo model. Once the hardware is purchased, everything else is software, and the only true service needed is a program guide. Program guides are available on the internet for free. The perceived value isn't there to the average consumer.

I firmly believe that this is one of the reasons why consumers haven't taken to the DVR/PVR services. How many people would still have VCR's if they had to pay $5 or $10 a month to use it?

When most of the development costs are recouped you'll basically see a hard drive built into most midrange TV's, STB's, and any sort of Satellite receiver. In the long term, considering that HDTV data rates are static but hardware development is dynamic, you'll probably see solid state Hard Drives which will drive PVR functions into the lowest cost TV's. All it will take is a single 128GB ROM chip, and a TV will have 'ten hours of HDTV recording built in'. Remember just 12 years ago, 1 meg chips cost as much as today's 512 meg chips.

[Chris Freeland]

Actually no. That's the problem with the whole PVR/DVR/Tivo model. Once the hardware is purchased, everything else is software, and the only true service needed is a program guide. Program guides are available on the internet for free. The perceived value isn't there to the average consumer.

I firmly believe that this is one of the reasons why consumers haven't taken to the DVR/PVR services. How many people would still have VCR's if they had to pay $5 or $10 a month to use it?

When most of the development costs are recouped you'll basically see a hard drive built into most midrange TV's, STB's, and any sort of Satellite receiver. In the long term, considering that HDTV data rates are static but hardware development is dynamic, you'll probably see solid state Hard Drives which will drive PVR functions into the lowest cost TV's. All it will take is a single 128GB ROM chip, and a TV will have 'ten hours of HDTV recording built in'. Remember just 12 years ago, 1 meg chips cost as much as today's 512 meg chips.

I partly disagree, part of the reason DVR's have not caught on as they could have is the combination of buying the box AND paying a DVR fee. This is especially true with the standalone TIVO's and RePlay units where you pay around $150-$250 for the box on top of a $12.95 monthly fee or a $250-$300 lifetime fee, plus it is one more box to add to the cable or satelite STB, DVD player, VCR etc. DVR's combined with in one box with a Satellite STB have ben more successful at both E* and D*, granted part of the reason E* is #1 in DVR sales has ben their no fee DVR's, however I suspect that the D*DVR with TIVO has ben gaining on E*DVR sales since the price of the hardware and the service fee have ben reduced, since E* is going to give the 510 away free to new subs, many will see the value of this and be willing to pay for the service to get the hardware FREE, and it is not the AT50 sub that E* is aiming for here, E* is aiming at more AT100, AT150 and AEP subs here thus the lower or zero service fees for these packages. Furthermore even though the DVR510 only has one tuner and a few les features then the D*DVRw/TIVO, it still does things beyond what a VCR can do, and a VCR if it is used to record frequently requires the constant purchase of blank tapes, which can run more then $4.98 per month depending on how much one records. DVD recorders still run $400 and higher and the ones with DVR features run $500 or more and like VCR's their is an investment in blank disks.

I agree with you that in the future more and more tv's, DVD players and recorders and game machines will eventually have hard drives or some new form of digital storage built in, however it will still take software to run the DVR functions and I am afraid that the subscription format for software may be the wave of the future, even some of the computer software company's are starting to do this, pay a subscription fee and get all of the latest standard upgrades at no additional charge. With DVR's their no doubt will be some models out their without a subscription fee with them, however the price for these devices will always be higher then the ones with subscription fees.

[Jacob S]

To say that the DVR fee in part or whole is due to the Program Guide is a load of bull. Why charge those that have a DVR receiver for the Program Guide when most without the DVR receiver has a Guide at no charge included with their service anyways?

The whole idea of charging a DVR fee in the beginning was to make up for the hardware cost since they lowered the price of the hardware. Now that Dish is still trying to get retail out of the hardware and charge a fee still is something else.

I also think hard drives will be included in tv's, satellite receivers, and cable receivers a lot more in the future as DVR will become increasingly popular. Why should people have to pay for recording on a hard drive when they did not have to pay for recording to a vhs tape or dvd?If there were some added features that were worth paying for then that would be different. If you buy the hardware at retail price you should not have to keep paying month to month. You didnt have to with a vcr or dvd player.

[Peluso]

I partly disagree, part of the reason DVR's have not caught on as they could have is the combination of buying the box AND paying a DVR fee. This is especially true with the standalone TIVO's and RePlay units where you pay around $150-$250 for the box on top of a $12.95 monthly fee or a $250-$300 lifetime fee, plus it is one more box to add to the cable or satellite STB, DVD player, VCR etc. DVR's combined with in one box with a Satellite STB have been more successful at both E* and D*,
.......

I am afraid that the subscription format for software may be the wave of the future, even some of the computer software company's are starting to do this, pay a subscription fee and get all of the latest standard upgrades at no additional charge. With DVR's their no doubt will be some models out their without a subscription fee with them, however the price for these devices will always be higher then the ones with subscription fees.

Pride of ownership. If you pay for a product, the mass consumers will not accept having to pay monthly as well. I think you have a point in that if a PVR was given away with a monthly agreement, you'd see more acceptance but that model doesn't work all that well as the point you've made about the extra box.

Also, for products like Tivo, UltimateTV, ReplayTV, and the DishPVR, the software isn't going to get upgraded as often as say a traditional Microsoft product. Once the box hardware is set, there is only so many more features that can be added. That's a point against the subscription model.

Still you are correct in that subscription models are where every software company on earth wants to go. If the consumer is ever retrained, then that's the direction the world is going to go in.

Final point about the VCR and daily fee. I use one tape, and only for time shifting. I very rarely archive the shows so the point about VCR tapes vs. monthly fee isn't apples to apples.

[Jacob S]

These companies want to charge monthly because they can make more money in the long run even if they have to reduce the hardware cost below their own cost upfront. Its almost like forcing you to make payments on the hardware/software forever and sometimes without choice as to purchase it outright.

Can you imagine Microsoft Windows charging you monthly for their software to use it? Messengers such as yahoo, msn, aol, and icq charging a monthly fee to use their software? This is what charging a monthly fee for using DVR service is for in a sense.

[dbronstein]

To say that the DVR fee in part or whole is due to the Program Guide is a load of bull. Why charge those that have a DVR receiver for the Program Guide when most without the DVR receiver has a Guide at no charge included with their service anyways?


When they first came out, they were only stand-alone models. The guide had to come from somewhere, thus the fee. Just because guides are available free doesn't mean you can get them into the box yourself.

But now that the DVRs are integrated with the sat boxes, the fees don't make any sense because Dish/Direc provide guides as a normal part of your service anyway.

Dennis

[alv]

Replay had no fee initially but with higher cost hardware. Didn't Tivo win out because the initial hardware cost was cheaper?

[toddjb]

Wow...just looked at the Tivo website. The Series 2 Tivo has some GREAT features (at a fee, of course);

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.6.asp

The home media option is great. I've been wishing Dish would add that for a while now (give us the ability to set an event via the internet). Not to mention the capability to share programs between receivers. Tivo really has leapfrogged our Dish PVRs.


:confused: Question; how is the record quality of TIVO units? The nice thing about the Dish PVRs, I thought, was that they record the exact digital stream that comes off the satellite. So, on a BIG screen when I can see all the compression errors, it is nice to know it is at least as good as the live broadcast (without compounded compression errors).

-Todd

[Unthinkable]

:confused: Question; how is the record quality of TIVO units? The nice thing about the Dish PVRs, I thought, was that they record the exact digital stream that comes off the satellite. So, on a BIG screen when I can see all the compression errors, it is nice to know it is at least as good as the live broadcast (without compounded compression errors).

-Todd

DirecTivo records the digital bitstream as well. The stand alone Tivo's offer various user selectable picture quality recording levels.

[Chris Freeland]

Replay had no fee initially but with higher cost hardware. Didn't Tivo win out because the initial hardware cost was cheaper?

Yes this is correct, they did this so more people can afford their units and bring them in line with TIVO. This is precisely what E* is doing with their DVR's , from what I understand when the 510 promotion starts in a few weeks, instead of new subs having to pay $199 to upgrade to a fee Free 508, they will get a 510 for Free instead, but will pay the monthly DVR fee, unless they get AEP. Once the current supplies of 508's are gone and the current promo's for current subs to upgrade to the 508, I am sure that their will be a new upgrade deal for current subs to upgrade to a 510 for Free or real cheap, but of course the monthly DVR fee will apply.

[TNGTony]

Out of curiosity, how many current subs reading this would consider upgrading to a 510 with the monthly fee's if they can upgrade for FREE?

Let's see...If I'm an AT50 subscriber, the "free" upgrade would cost me $120 dollars a year. In 3 years (which is as long as I've had my Dishplayer) that would be $360. In 6 years (which is as long as I've had Dish) that would be $720.

I'd say that is pretty steep for being "free".

I've said it before...if EVERYONE on the planet charges for DVR functionallity, I'll probably pay it. But just to prove the point, I will NEVER pay it to Dish. Anyone who's been in the forums for the last 6 years knows that this is not a normal thing for me to say. I've been called an apologist for Dish or a dish-ciple so many times it's not even funny. But this is where I draw the line!

See ya
Tony

[Inaba]

Question; how is the record quality of TIVO units? The nice thing about the Dish PVRs, I thought, was that they record the exact digital stream that comes off the satellite. So, on a BIG screen when I can see all the compression errors, it is nice to know it is at least as good as the live broadcast (without compounded compression errors).

The record quality is poor, when compared with a direct save from the sat stream. That's the Dish PVR's saving grace at this point (or the devil in the details depending on your point of view) - E* wouldn't be able to sell a single PVR if a Tivo could record off of the Sat stream. The only reason E*'s apparent lead in the PVR arena is due to the fact that there is (was?) no PVR fee, and you could record off the stream. Otherwise, a lot of people wouldn't put up with the shoddy programming and derth of features found on Dish PVRs vs. Tivo/Replay/UTV.

Picture quality was the reason I went with a 721 as opposed to a stand alone Tivo unit and a cheap IRD. If I could somehow stream DV off a cheap IRD into a TIVO, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

I do think the market is ripe for a PVR w/ no monthly fee. With a little bit of development cost on the Open Source PVR programs and some custom hardware... the monthly bandwidth requirements for downloading the guides to the consumers would be minimal. Just require them to have an already established ISP, and include Broadband accessability and you'd make a killing.

TIVO w/o the fee would sell like hotcakes I'd bet. Especially if you could get the video out to a DVD or VHS fairly easily w/ no loss of quality.

[Jacob S]

I agree, the Dish Network PVR's have a wonderful playback picture quality in which you cannot tell any difference at all (even on a bigscreen tv) between a prerecorded show and a live one.

I thought the DirecTivo's did not have the 3 quality settings but recorded directly from the stream?

[Inaba]

I agree, the Dish Network PVR's have a wonderful playback picture quality in which you cannot tell any difference at all (even on a bigscreen tv) between a prerecorded show and a live one.

I thought the DirecTivo's did not have the 3 quality settings but recorded directly from the stream?

DirecTIVO does record directly from the stream... but unfortunately, the DirecTIVO is also way behind the Tivo technology curve. Ever since D* decided to take over the DTIVO, they've nixed all the *good* improvements to the software. Go figure.

A bright, shiney example of the utter mismanagement at DirecTV w/ Tivo technology: They said they won't be offering the HMO for the DirecTIVO. HELLO?! Big duh here.

All the software upgrades you can see on the Tivo's? Nope... you don't get it on the DirecTIVO.

UTV, DirecTIVO and the DishPVRs all record directly from the stream... and this is one of my biggest draws towards the PVRs in question... and the primary reason I did not go with a stand alone Tivo. I'm real big on picture and sound quality (more so sound quality) -- and none of the PVR units (or Sat boxes) have Digital video in/out to allow a stand alone PVR to record in unaltered video.

I realize the reasoning behind this... however, it's another example of how copyright and the RIAA are stifling innovation and customer acceptance of new techology. How many threads have we seen about getting digital video off the hard drive of the PVRs? A lot ... people WANT to record their stuff on removable media... the legalities aside, that's one of the major factors of the lack of acceptance IMHO.

I don't have a solution to propose, I understand and sympathize with both sides of the arguement. I know the artists and/or distributors want to protect their work, and it's perfectly understandable. On the other hand, though, the work is less useful to outright useless to me if I can't move it around to more convenient venues for me.

I personally believe (but have nothing to back this up) that the reason there's such a problem is the ridiculously inflated prices of media content. $16/CD for 1 song is ridiculous. $15 - $30 for a DVD is ridiculous. I would pay $5 for a DVD, I won't pay $15. I would pay $.50 for a song. I won't pay $16. Apple tapped into this market, and somewhat backs up my claims in so far as their iTunes service is wildly successful, even at a buck a song. Content costs too much, that's the bottom line. A lot less people would pirate content if it was priced reasonably.

To put this back on track... allowing consumers to do what they want with the content will drive acceptance of the product, and to sweeten that pot, it would make people more likely to pay for the PVR service. I would consider paying $5/mo for a PVR that let me archive off shows I want to keep onto DVD. *THAT* would be worth $5/mo to me. An EPG is not worth that.