Echostar answers YOUR technical questions!

[Scott Greczkowski]

As you may remember Dish Network held its Tech Chat last month, after the chat was over there were many people who had more technical questions then were answered on TV.

Because of the questions our members still had I worked with Echostar to get many of your technical questions answered by the tech at Echostar!

You may recall your questions here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16808) however to make things easier I have included the questions with the replies!

My thanks to everyone at Echostar who made this Q&A possible!

Here we go!

Q: The question I have is for SuperDish, it will have to replace the Dish 500, which currently have only 4 RG 6's running to it. Will I need to run more cables, since there's three LNB's or will the switch be located on the Dish? How does the Dish 300 for 61.5 fit into the picture? Even if you mirror all the HD on 61.5 to 105 I still have a couple of LIL channels on 61.5. If new cables need to be run will Dish do that as part of the install and bury the additional cable or is that left for me to do. Something for Dish to keep in mind, I can replace all this with a DirecTV Plus dish and use the four existing cables. Thanks - Rick

The DP501 and DP508 are DishPro compatible receivers. The LNBF's on the SuperDish will be DishPro. They only require one wire per orbital location, so three wires from the SuperDish to a switch. In order to get SuperDish + Dish 300 for 110, 119, 105, and 61.5 you will need to get the DishPro Plus 4:4 switch. We haven't really talked about this product much, but it will not be available until early 2004. Good news is that it can connect the DP+4:4 directly to both DishPro products and Legacy products. So you would need to replace the SW64 with the DP+4:4 switch. Until the DP+4:4 is available you would need the DP3:4 switch, but would also need DP Legacy adapter for the Model 6000. This solution would not support 61.5. So the best thing for your situation maybe to wait for the DP+4:4. One other thing to note about the DP+4:4 and the up coming DP921 or any of our other two tuner boxes is that with a DishPro Plus Diplexer at the receiver a single cable can be run to the DP+4:4 and it will support both tuners. Clear as mud?

Q: Since the potential exists for some customers to want 5 satellite [Dish 500 + 105 + 121 + 61.5 for east locals and/or SkyAngel] or 6 satellite configurations [Dish 500 + 105 + 121 + 61.5 for SkyAngel + 148 for west locals], will Dish support such configurations?

We are working on the DP+4:4 to support 4 satellite locations. We will then be adding DP2:1 cascaded support for a fifth satellite location. Right now we have no plans for a 6 location switch capability. Currently 61.5 and 148 have the same network id's and can not coexist in a installation with receivers.

Q: They said in the tech chat the SuperDish will not work with older receivers. Will it work with the 3900?

Currently we are trying to support SuperDish with everything but Model 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, Dishplayer, JVC DVHS. Until we write the code and get it to fit and debugged we won't be sure, but we think we can get SuperDish support into all other models. So yes model 3900 should be supported.

Q: Since the Super Dish is a larger size, will it be able to use the same mast as the Dish 500 ant it will be replacing, or will a new mast be required?

A new mast is required. Right now we are looking at SuperDishes from two vendors. We will probably distribute this based on geographical areas. There are two different mast sizes, 2" and 2 3/8". The volume is larger on the 2" mast product.

Q: Will HDCP flagged content force the Component Video to be Scaled Down to 480P?

No. Current thought is if an HDCP protected content is received and you are connected 1080i Component video the effective resolution will be cut to 960 X 540, i.e. half horz and half vertical resolution. This will be done by duplicating pixels in both horz and vertical direction. The output will still be at 1080i. For 720P this will be cut to 640 X 360 in the same manner as above. This is all subject to negotiation with the studios, but we will be fighting for our customers rights, and will resist using this feature to any extent possible.

Q: Will DVI absolutely require an HDCP enabled device, even if the HD content in question isn't flagged for HDCP? (i.e. Will my Boxlight HD20 Projector which has DVI, but no HDCP, work with the 921?)

Currently we are working to only require HDCP when the content is flagged as requiring HDCP protection.

Q: I'm also very curious to know how the 921 will function to record OTA digital programming. On the 6000, all local digital channels are simply displayed as "Local Digital". Will the new unit display a program guide, perhaps using the PSIP to allow name/event based programming?

We are working on including both the analog and digital TV stations information into the extended guide (currently 9 day guide). We are also looking to have the DP811 use a subset of that guide instead of the standard two day guide. This will allow for the DP921 to record events the same as if they were on the satellite. This has advantages over PSIP since we can control whether data is there, what it's format is (adult ratings, etc), we will have a consistent amount of data for all channels (currently 9 days), and we can receive all data without having to tune to each channel individually, which would be required if we tried to use the PSIP data. We may not have this at product launch, but we are working to add it.

Q: I will third the component down rez question, this is very important as I and many other Mitsubishi HDTV owners can't even go buy a promise module to use the 921 since E* is not allowing 1394 connections to a display. If the component out is not full rez all the time, no matter what, 2 million or more Mitsubishi HDTV owners are SOL.

See the answer above. As I mentioned the HDCP down rez issue is mainly a Hollywood studio issue. We will be resisting ever requiring the down rez, but I feel, being a Mit 1080i component only owner as well, that if I have a choice of content at 960 X 540 or only SD content, I would still want the 960 X 540 content. Also please realize there is a very good chance that your TV set can not resolve the full 1920 X 1080i resolution and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the content.


Q: Will the DishPlayer work with the SuperDish, even if it only gets me the stuff on 110/119? Or does my wife have something else to (legitimately) complain about?

Gee, your wife needs a legitimate reason to complain? Mine doesn't, she'll complain about anything. In this configuration you will need a DP3:4. The Dishplayer will need a DishPro Adapter to work with the DP3:4. In this case it will look like a SW6:4 to the Dishplayer with 110, 119, 105. Dishplayer will not understand the 105 location so it will ignore that location. So it will work for 110/119 only. I am making sure they test this.

Q: How will the 921 handle subchannels on OTA digital? Will we record the overall channel, say, channel 5 and then select which subchannel to view later, 5.1, 5.2, etch or will we be able to directly select the 921 to record a specific subchannel. The second option will save some drive space, I would think.

See the answer above about the 9 day guide carrying guide data for local digital channels. As part of this we will be asking Tribune and the local digital channels to provide the data for the sub-channels. In this case we should be able to 1) display their existence and when they are on/off air 2) allow for recording of just sub-channel content, 3) provide all the listings in the guide without having to go to a sub-screen for OTA digital channels.

Q: Since the 105 satellite is a different type than the 110/119 birds, will there be new switches to combine the two LNB's on SuperDish?

In general the SuperDish LNBF's are DishPro, so DishPro switches (or the DP+4:4, see above) will work with SuperDish.

Q: Will the 921 and 811 be able to pass 480i and 480p programming untouched through their component outputs? The 6000 currently upconverts everything to 1080i.

Hmmm.....not real sure of the question here, but I will take a stab. Most component HDTV's are not auto-switching like monitors are. For this reason once the component output has been defined to be 1080i or 720P we always leave it that way. For 480i we have the composite video or S-video output that can be used. As mentioned on the show the DP811 can simultaneously output the Composite or S-video at the same time as the HDTV component outputs are active. For the DP921 this will not be the case, it will be like the Model 6000 where you have to select either the HDTV component outputs to be active or the Composite/S-video to be active. This shouldn't be as big of issue on the DP921 since it can record to the HDD instead of using a VCR. We understand the other use for this is to drive a SD TV in another room, so we can't support this well on the DP921, the mode will have to be changed to support this. Currently we are not supporting 480P outputs at all, this requires filter changes on the component outputs between driving HD or 480P. Hope this answered your question.

Also please note that both the DP811 and DP921 have improved upconversion capability over the model 6000.


Q: Questions: (on the DP921)
1. Please verify what kind of DVI it will be (DVI-I).
2. While it is not planned is the hardware in place for the 921 to support monitor output on the "DishWire" to a 5C compliant device?
3. what about the new technology that will allow a dual receiver 721/921 to work over a single cable run?

1) The DP921 will use the DVI-I, The DP811 use DVI-D


2) Yes the hardware is the same. We can put out 1394 (with DTCP if required) to be recorded on DVHS etc., which is the same as what is required for the TV. The issues is DVR support. It is very difficult to modify the DVR stream while doing trick modes etc. to create a valid transport stream. There are also interface issues associated with guide overlay, Picture in graphics, control (channel change, setup, etc) issues. We didn't feel that people would be happy buying a DP921 with a massive hard drive and not be able to do trick modes when connected to a 1394 TV. For these reasons we will be doing the discovery of the TV and not allowing this combination to work.

3) See DP+4:4 switch description above.

Q: Will it be possible to point a single dish at 105 or 121? What size will the dish need to be, and what kind of LNB will be required?

Yes. A 36" wide dish minimum will be needed with a bandstacked (DishPro LNBF). Currently the output of the DishPro LNBF's will need to be combined in a DP3:4 switch.

Q: Will the 921 and 811 bring in the current HD channels with one dish 500 pointed at 110 and 119 and one dish 500 pointed at 61.5. I currently have a 501 and 301 bringing in channels from all three satellites. I have a dual output LNBF on the 500 pointed at 61.5 and a twin LNBF on the 500 pointed at the 110, 119. One cable goes from each to the two SW21 switches. One cable comes out from each switch. One cable then goes to the 301 and one goes to the 501. Can I have the 811 and the 921 set up this way until the SuperDish comes out. I am assuming these receivers will be out before the SuperDish or this question is irrelevant.

Yes, the new receivers will work with the legacy switches and LNBF's. The only problem with your setup is that a DP921 will need two feeds and will take up both of your connections. So in order for that to work you would need to upgrade to a SW64 with two outputs to the DP921 and one to the DP811.

Q: 1. Under what circumstances will PIP be supported? For example, will you be able to display a SD PIP window while on a HD channel?

2. Do you plan to use the full 16:9 screen for additional guide information, or will you just be stretching?

3. Aside from HD capability and ability to record off-air signals, what are the other operational differences between the 921 and 721 for PVR functionality? For example, will the 921 have a one-hour pause buffer for HD?

4. Will the 811/921 differ at all from the 6000 in terms of aspect ratio options?

5. Will 8PSK be used at 105 initially? If not, do you plan to use 8PSK with AMC15?

1) on the DP921 you can do PIP only if both of the sources are SD. If either are HD, PIP will not be supported. This is due to limitations on the HD Decoder Chip.

2) Not on the initial release, maybe in later releases.
3) As long as there is no PIP there are no additional restrictions.
4) First release the options will be the same. We are looking to add additional options later.
5) We are still working out what transmission we will be using a t 105 for HD. The SD locals will use standard QPSK so that they will compatible with the largest number of STB's.

Q; Thanks for the info. I hope that the component output settings will be configurable in the 921 menu such that the user can select what to do with each type of input signal (480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i). Ideally, I would like the 921 to pass 480i/p programming untouched, where as upconvert 720p programming to 1080i transparently.

Already answered (I think).


Q: Is 'dishwire' fully IEEE1394 compliant, or a proprietary implementation?

It is IEEE 1394 compliant, but we will do a discovery process and only work with approved peripherals. Many things like Camcorders have modes that are not supported by the design. External HDD may not have the performance required to record A/V. We want to avoid having marginal solutions that will not work, since they will be difficult to debug and explain to the consumer

Thanks again to the Tech Guys at Echostar for all their hard work answering YOUR questions!

[angiodan]

Scott, great post! Thanks for getting a lot of our questions answered.

[thescrub]

It's a real bummer that they will actually be blocking the ability of a 1394 capable monitor from discovering the 921.

[Kagato]

The tech did make an intesting remark about Down Rez. Most TV can't display an actual 1080i signal. It scales it to usually 700-800 lines. Even the Pioneer True 1080i doesn't do a full 1920x1080i, it's more like 1200X1080i. I also like the fact that they are trying to get DVI out to work in non HDCP modes as DVI usually looks much nicer than component. It's also nice to see that the video scaler has been improved. Skipping PSIP and getting special OTA information sounds way cool too.

But, it's not all roses. The "dishWire" seems to be a bummer. Although I have a DVHS, having more options would be nice.

[JohnH]

Currently 61.5 and 148 have the same network id's and can not coexist in a installation with receivers.

Bull!! 61.5 and 148 do exist on the same receivers, currently. As to the Network IDs. 61.5 is 4098 and 148 is 4105. The TIDs are different as well.

You currently are transmitting a 148 ID on 105. Not exactly the right thing to do.

[sampatterson]

Thanks Scott. While I didn't like some of the answers (eg no 4:4 or 2:1 new switches until next year), at least we have the answers now.

[Cyclone]

I think a lot of us needed to hear these answers.

[DarrellP]

The current crop of $1k projectors (In Focus X1 & Sanyo Z1) are 1/4 HD and have outstanding pictures with HD.

[Mike500]

Thanks Scott. While I didn't like some of the answers (eg no 4:4 or 2:1 new switches until next year), at least we have the answers now.


The DP21 has been out for 2-3 months. I am an independent installer and have four of them in my inventory. It is one large grey switch about four times the size of an SW21.

[Ken_F]

Scott,

Excellent post. Great work from the guys at Echostar to answer all those questions.

For this reason once the component output has been defined to be 1080i or 720P we always leave it that way.I am a bit disappointed that this model will apparently not offer an all-native output option for HDTV. My front projector is able to automatically switch between 720p and 1080i HD modes, and having to enter the menu to change between formats to get the best picture on ESPN-HD or a local ABC/FOX affiliate is not the most user-friendly solution. Virtually all new and upcoming DirecTV STBs (with DVI) have such an all-native option for HD.

I am very pleased to hear about the work Dish is doing to provide some satellite-delivered programming information for terrestrial DTV/HDTV locals. That is a key selling point.

[wiz]

Downrezzed 540i is probably no better if not as good as 480p. I know there's a big difference between 480p DVD and the same film on HBOHD @ 1080i on my Mits 1080i. My question is now can they downrez our 6000s? I wouldn't think this is possible with the way the 6000s outputs only HD or SD. Also with no HDCP output, like DVI, on the 6000 to reconize the flag to shut off our 1080i component outputs. Can someone answer this?

[Jacob S]

A 36 inch wide dish to receive 105 or 121? Why? Whats the difference if you take the other lnbf's off of a SuperDish in which will only be 26 inches in which would be a single dish? Also it has to be bandstacked DP LNBF? What if thats the only dish you use, just that orbital location for those that just want locals or only international?

[Ken_F]

Jacob,

The Superdish is no doubt a highly optimized elliptical dish. You can't get the same results with a standard dish of a comparable size.

[Jacob S]

I am sure there would be a company out there somewhere in which would offer such a dish but probably at a higher cost than what you can get the bigger dish or SuperDish for.

[Bill R]

Thanks Scott and thanks to the folks at Echostar for answering all the questions. For me, the answers cleared up MANY of the questions I had about the Superdish.

[kstevens]

Downrezzed 540i is probably no better if not as good as 480p. I know there's a big difference between 480p DVD and the same film on HBOHD @ 1080i on my Mits 1080i. My question is now can they downrez our 6000s? I wouldn't think this is possible with the way the 6000s outputs only HD or SD. Also with no HDCP output, like DVI, on the 6000 to reconize the flag to shut off our 1080i component outputs. Can someone answer this?

Can someone explain this. Does dish plan on down resing the signal to 540i for all component output? WTF? if this is the case I definitely will not get the 921.


Ken

[wiz]

Only HDCP (copy protected) material. Such as pay for view. What worries me is when will HBO, Showtime, ect films become HDCP flagged in the possible future. If the 6000s are except from HDCP I'll never let it go, no matter what other downfalls it may have. That is why I asked about their ability to downrezz the 6000s. That is the burning question.

[Greg Johnson]

In the answer to the first question, the tech states that a DP adapter would be required for the 6000. I was under the impression that the 6000 was compatible with the SuperDish. This kinda sucks. I guess you're going to have to spend another 70.00 to upgrade. :rolleyes:

Greg

[Mike500]

The 6000's system was finalized, even before Dish even thought of DishPro. What Dish compant tech would say that it would be, as it is, compatible with DishPro switches on the Superdish? None of the Legacy receivers are supported by Dishpro, without the adapter.

[Greg Johnson]

Pardon my ignorance Mike500. I guess I'm just not compant or competent enough about Dish hardware. It was from the Tech forum summary thread that I was under the impression that the 6000 was compatible with the SuperDish. see below:


SuperDISH

More locals, international and HDTV on 1 dish
Using FSS satellites. Dish is larger to be able to differentiate between satellites 2 degrees apart, also to get the lower power signal.

2 versions of SuperDISH: 105/110/119 or 110/119/121
105 gets HD and new locals
121 gets international
Some of the oldest receivers won't work with it. OpenTV receivers and the 6000 will.
Coming 4Q03. Will announce an upgrade program for incompatible receivers

[Mike123abc]

The SuperDish in combination with the new DP+4:4 switch will support with 6000 without an adapter. The switch is now smart enough to act like a legacy switch when talking to a legacy reciever. The old DP3:4 switch is the one that will need the adapter. The real bummer here is that the DP+4:4 will not be available until 2004!!!

[chelsea]

Its nice to finally get something Positive. Scott, perhaps
you associates could answer questions once a month.
It would cut down the negative chatter.

For those who will be spending money on the Superdish,
they should't mind investing in the technology for answers.
By answering questions it will help get it up & running.
They can afford to answer questions, its only a modest
expense to spread around the answers, instead of pain.
You should be happy to tell us everything, because we have
made a large investment.
Its only fair to share the answers, it will help offset your
investment in your customers. Besides you already spent
a lot of money, it isn't that big of an additional cost to
share answers to Dish's commitment to HD.

[Greg Johnson]

Thanks Mike123abc for clearing that up for me. So E* is going to release the SuperDish in Q4 of 2003 but the switch most of us will need to make it work without buying either new receivers or adapters wont be released until "early" 2004. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[krt]

Most component HDTV's are not auto-switching like monitors are. For this reason once the component output has been defined to be 1080i or 720P we always leave it that way. For 480i we have the composite video or S-video output that can be used.

Hmmm. My four year old Toshiba HDTV can auto switch between 480i, 480p, and 1080i on it's component inputs. And the newer models can auto switch 720p as well. I understand that one can manually switch between the s-video and component outputs on the 921. However, this is inconvenient as one has to switch both the output on the 921, and the input to the TV. Hopefully, with the improved up conversion capabilities of the 921 over the 6000, this will not be an issue.

[rjruby]

So E* is going to release the SuperDish in Q4 of 2003 but the switch most of us will need to make it work without buying either new receivers or adapters wont be released until "early" 2004.

It appears that DirecTV is more appealing to me in the short term (6 to 9 months) as an HDTV provider than Dishnetwork.

I might just keep Dishnetwork for the international programming I want on 61.5 and get the rest of my service from DirecTV.

Bob

[JStanton]

The 6000's system was finalized, even before Dish even thought of DishPro. What Dish compant tech would say that it would be, as it is, compatible with DishPro switches on the Superdish? None of the Legacy receivers are supported by Dishpro, without the adapter.

Not exactly. They replaced the whole satellite interface with the 8PSK module. They could have added DishPro then.

[Jerry G]

Not having the DP+4:4 available until 2004 may just be the straw that breaks this camel's back and will make me switch to DirecTV.

I've got 3 receivers-a 6000 and two 5000s. The 6000 and one of the 5000s are in the same location feeding two different displays.

It's been announced that all new HD channels will go to 105. So to receive any new HD channels, I have to get the SuperDish. That means both 5000s become non functional. I was going to buy the 921, which will replace one of the 5000s. I'll have to buy another receiver to replace the other 5000.

I was under the impression that the DP+4:4 would be out at the same time as the SuperDish so I could use the same three feeds for the three receivers and use the diplexor to feed both tuners of the 921 with the current three feeds. But the DP+4:4 won't be available, so I'll have buy a DP3:4 and a legacy adapter for the 6000 and either use only one of the 921 tuners or not use one of the other receivers so that I'll have two feeds for the 921. Then in 2004, to regain use of the third receiver, I'll have to buy a DP+4:4 which means I wasted money on the DP3:4 and legacy adapter.

Dish's decision to put new HD at 105 and to NOT have the DP+4:4 available when the SuperDish is released really annoys me and means that in addition to wasting money I'll have to give up some functionality until the DP+4:4 is released. Dish has made a real mess of things with the way they are handling the new HD channels we've been waiting for. And on top of that, we continue to wait and wait for those new channels which will all depend upon new equipment.

What Dish should really do is find a way to put the new channels on 110 or 119 until sometime in 2004. After all the equipment is readily available, they could then move those new channels to 105. But I just don't see Dish being flexible enough to do this. And it may just be time to give up on Dish and go to DirecTV.

[Mike500]

I'm just wondering if you can use legacy switches and lnb's and use a ku band lnbf for 105 and/or 121, since they will be linear polarization, I guess.

[RAD]

I still don't remember it being said if the existing HD programmin will be mirrored on 105 from day one, or if only new would be on 105 and existing would be on 61.5. Soctt (or anyone) what have you heard 'officially' on this matter? If it's 105 and 61.5 are needed that short of shoots all the 6K owners out of the water until the DP:4+4 sometime in 2004 which is unacceptable. Thanks - Rick

[Scott Greczkowski]

Rad I don't have an answer for that one. I would also hate to loose HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discovery HD and the events channel just to upgrade to the SuperDish.

It will be interesting to see what they do with this.

[dmodemd]

This is all very confusing... I just want to keep my 6000 and keep getting HD channels as why I bought the 6000 and the 8PSK module. To find out that all FUTURE HD channels will now be out of reach to ALL CURRENT HD Echostar equipment configurations is outrageous.

We were suckered into buying the 8PSK module to allow us to receive all future HD channels but now we have to rebuild our whole external network as well.

I'll wait and see how things shake out before I switch to DirecTV. If I want the latest HD channels, latest receivers, and need to change out my infrastructure, why would I have incentive to stay with Dish? Any new customer DirecTV deal is going to beat what Dish offers to sucker existing customers.

[Jacob S]

I thought I heard that they were going to mirror 61.5 channels on 105?

[Jerry G]

I still don't remember it being said if the existing HD programmin will be mirrored on 105 from day one, or if only new would be on 105 and existing would be on 61.5. Soctt (or anyone) what have you heard 'officially' on this matter? If it's 105 and 61.5 are needed that short of shoots all the 6K owners out of the water until the DP:4+4 sometime in 2004 which is unacceptable. Thanks - Rick

It's almost inconceivable that Dish wouldn't mirror the existing HD channels to 105 from day one. As you said, that would force users to choose between the new HD channels and the existing HD channels. That being said, nothing that Dish does now would surprise me. I used to be an ardent Dish supporter. Now, I'm getting very close to telling Dish to shove it and move to DirecTV. If Dish comes up with one more bit of lunacy that will make it more difficult and costly to receive HD, I'll be gone for sure. I may leave anyway, given how Dish just seems to be in a state of chaos now with misinformation, lack of information, and no additional HD channels for at least a few months. The delay in the release of the DP+4:4 really angers me knowing the additional money I'm going to have to put out because of this.

I see only one solution right now that would satisfy me. Dish needs to put the new HD channels on existing birds (other than 105) now and deal with moving them to 105 after the SuperDish and DP+4:4 are released.

[Peluso]

Not having the DP+4:4 available until 2004 may just be the straw that breaks this camel's back and will make me switch to DirecTV.

I've got 3 receivers-a 6000 Snip----

But I just don't see Dish being flexible enough to do this. And it may just be time to give up on Dish and go to DirecTV.

The question i have with your comment is simply, does DirecTV allow you to do what you want to do?

[Jerry G]

The question i have with your comment is simply, does DirecTV allow you to do what you want to do?

I'm just beginning to read about the options with DirecTV. With each company, there will be some positives and negatives. But to me, the most important thing is that DirecTV seems to have their stuff together right now as opposed to the chaos that seems to be pervasive with Dish right now. Ultimately, there may be some things I won't get with DirecTV that I could get with Dish. But meanwhile, I'll have the new HD channels and I'll miss the waiting, annoyances, and aggravation that many will be going through for the next 8 or 9 months while waiting for Dish to get their act together.

With Dish, I won't be able to do everything I want until the DP+4:4 comes out. That's not until 2004 and knowing Dish it will be the summer of 2004. That's just too long to wait.

[dmodemd]

Oh, I wont pay a dime for any SuperDish or equipment. I am sure DirectTV will give me everything I need as far as hardware to sign up. I expect them to give us all the SuperDish and switches free for a one year commitment to AT150 or better. Otherwise, no point in staying really. Everyone wants to upgrade their HD receivers anyway.

[Greg Johnson]

Even the most avid E* supporters on this forum have to admit that E* seems to be in total disarray at the moment. The HD situation, putting 5.99 HD PPV's on the event channel last week and announcing DVR fees for each receiver just to mention a few.

I've been a E* subscriber since the fall of 96. Trying to keep up with all the changes over the years has been sometimes frustrating and a major drain on ones pocketbook. 2 years ago when I upgraded to the D500, put up a dish for 61.5, added a SW64 and purchased a 6000 with 8VSB. I thought I was done. Then I needed to get a 8PSK last year. Now it's the SuperDish that will be released without the proper switch most will need. There is an old saying that applies here: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times and I'm a freakin idiot. (I added that one) There is many reasons why we're seeing so many posts from members contemplating a switch to D*. They seem to have a far better track record on system upgrades and the final cost to the end user.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and I may be completely off base on. Isn't the AMC-2 bird that's going to be used for the 105 slot just temporary until anther bird is launched. If so, wouldn't this possibly require us to change the lnbf for 105 on the SuperDish sometime in the future?

[Scott Greczkowski]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and I may be completely off base on. Isn't the AMC-2 bird that's going to be used for the 105 slot just temporary until anther bird is launched. If so, wouldn't this possibly require us to change the lnbf for 105 on the SuperDish sometime in the future?

No the new bird is also a KU bird so no LNB swapout will be needed. :)

[dmodemd]

Here's what I am REALLY afraid of:

They are holding back the channels in the new HD package to launch in conjunction with SuperDish, making SuperDish REQUIRED to receive them! This to give incentive to people to switch to SuperDish! This may be why even no free preview of HDNet. They at least gave us a free preview of DiscoveryHD, but then used it as leverage to get people to get the 8PSK.

[tomdowney]

I say let us give ole charly a chance to sort this all out, if we clammer for early info there is no way we can have things all worked out. These forums do give the sat guys an opportunity for feedback before they make mistakes trying to quess what we want and we will put up with. Like many of you I was told/sold and advertised that plug in module #2 was necessary for future HD programming, if this turns out to be false in such a short period of time E* owes us consideration or we take em down with a class action lawsuit!!! E* has been fair in the past so let's not flame em till we know more. :lol:

[Jacob S]

Some of those emails sent to Scott and others indicating the fee sure seemed certain to me.

[Mark Holtz]

First of all, I would like to thank the Echostar engineers for taking the time to respond to some of our questions. I hope that we can have a dialogue with both DirecTV representatives as well as Dish Network, even if it's "Submit question, and we'll answer it, but don't be surprised if we can't say anything now."

[BobMurdoch]

OK, I beg your pardon for avoiding the big issues and would like to focus on ME for a second..... ;)

I have a Dish 500 for 110/119 and a Dish 300 for 61.5 (all legacy equipment installed 2000-2002) being fed through a SW64 to provide a signal to a 721 to a HD Monitor and 2 Dishplayers feeding two analog TVS right now.

I'm planning on a major overhaul to finally get some HD content to my main TV. In addition, I'm planning on adding another TV to my house this October and need to get a new receiver for that set. I'm going to swap out a 921 for my 721 (and give the 721 to my parents). I have to get the Superdish of course, but I also need to get 61.5 (I'm assuming for local NYC channels and the CBS-HD feed). Assuming I punt the Dishplayers (I paid $199 and $150 so I've got my money's worth out of them the last three years (-- OK, you E* bashers can stop laughing now) , so I'm planning on upgrading those to new 510 DVRs as well as adding another 510 for the third receiver. I have the AEP pak so the monthly fees won't hit me.

So, I'm planning on converting my house to house a 921 and 3 510s, and I want to get all of the HD channels I can, while still keeping the ability to see ALL of my local channels. I'm planning on erecting an antenna on the roof to pull in Philly's digital OTA channels which are 45 miles away as the crow flies to feed the 921. Given my situation, how the hell do I make all of this work?

Sorry, for sidetracking you all to deal with MY personal situation, but I want to know what I need to do before I dive into it and leave something out........ To recap, besides the receivers and the Superdish, what else will I need to make this all work (another dish for 61.5?, multiple switches?, etc.)?

[James Hill]

I also like the fact that they are trying to get DVI out to work in non HDCP modes as DVI usually looks much nicer than component.

Want to buy some swampland in Florida?

James Hill

[BobMurdoch]

Now, that I think about.... I probably can get by with 3 new 508s if they will be going cheap (the $149 upgrade sounds interesting). The other three DVRs will be in bedrooms and will not need monster hard drives.......

[dinkster]

First, thanks to all for the very informative information, and thanks to Scott Greczkowski for his info on this subject.

I currently have a loaded 6000 with 2 dishs (110/119 and 61.5).

Assuming that I upgrade to the 921 prior to the introduction of the SuperDish, would I need to upgrade the LNBF's on my current dishes in order to provide the 2 cable feed to the 921? Or is there an easier/less expensive way to do this.

[mds54]

It will be more than just interesting.....
it will determine how many of us will jump ship
and leave the E* mess for D* or cable HD.....

[Jerry 42]

IMO we are all facing the result of the failed merger.

If the merger was done, than new hardware would have needed to be some sort of D*/E* combo. Therefore why would E* commit to new Dish only equipment (including R&D, manufacturing & invertory stock) costs which would be worthless. Early on Charlie said E* would make any D*/E* equipment change over free for Dish subscribers. Therefore it seems no new equipment was put in the pipe line. Perhaps that delayed new sats going up too.

When the merger failed it seems E* had to regear up its own equipment configurations, manufacting, testing etc. The new Dish only equipment, I guess, could be rushed out but that would mean extra costs for more manpower, overtime, 2nd or 3rd shifts, out sourcing, etc. It just seems to me E* is not willing and/or able to cover these costs. I believe this is the reason for all the delays and lack of new equipment now.

The same is likely true in the programming area. D*-E* combo would be a force against the suppliers, E* alone or versus Fox makes it much harder to get good deals.

I do think E* will match or better D* but it may take a lot of time and E* could lose subscribers during this catch up time.

I like E* (subscriber for over 7 years) and have a large investment in Dish equipment but the current situation and what seems to be a future need for more investment in equipment (Super Dish, DP 3:4 now and 4:4 within 6 months etc) really has me, like others, thinking about the future with E*. I hope the Aug 11 "Charlie Chat" will clear some of this up.

[wiz]

beings I have a 6000 and a 3900 I will probable have to have 2 Dish Pro adopters ($70 each)for the superdish. I may be better off buying a 1 Meter dish for the new hd, but what kind of lmb would I need and what switch could I use to combine that to a Dish 500? I could upgrade the 3900 but I won't buy another SD receiver, with off-air digital being so good; and I won't buy any new HD receiver without 1394 firewire. This has probably been already answered.

[wmayo]

Here's what I am REALLY afraid of:

They are holding back the channels in the new HD package to launch in conjunction with SuperDish, making SuperDish REQUIRED to receive them! This to give incentive to people to switch to SuperDish! This may be why even no free preview of HDNet. They at least gave us a free preview of DiscoveryHD, but then used it as leverage to get people to get the 8PSK.

This is exactly the impression a CSR gave me a couple of days ago. When I inquired about the 921, she said "yes, that will come with the new superdish."

Jerry G says,
"I used to be an ardent Dish supporter. Now, I'm getting very close to telling Dish to shove it and move to DirecTV. If Dish comes up with one more bit of lunacy that will make it more difficult and costly to receive HD, I'll be gone for sure. I may leave anyway, given how Dish just seems to be in a state of chaos now with misinformation, lack of information, and no additional HD channels for at least a few months. The delay in the release of the DP+4:4 really angers me knowing the additional money I'm going to have to put out because of this.

I see only one solution right now that would satisfy me. Dish needs to put the new HD channels on existing birds (other than 105) now and deal with moving them to 105 after the SuperDish and DP+4:4 are released."
----------

There's two paths for Dish right now. They put up some new HD content on current birds and switch over when things are finally ready equipment-wise (summer 2004 or later??) After all he promised us HDNet by end of summer - HOW could they possibly do this AND wait for superdish with all it's concommitant paraphenalia? We're still getting conflicting signals here!!

Or, they can STREEETTTCCCHHH us out hoping we'll wait and pay for solutions that may not be kind to 6000 owners/upgraders, all with a sense that SD-only viewers out there (high nineties percent?) don't know or give a whit about all this stuff (so why worry or hurry?)

As far as specific promises "you need this module for future HD programming" - true, but they didn't tell us we'd need a whole new setup anyway; and almost in a read-my-lips style in an even older chat from the past ... "E - S - P - N - H - D," uh, I guess when we finally get all our new dishes and switches; and of course, "HDNet coming this summer," what ... as single pay-pre-view events on the events channel??

They need to throw some crumbs NOW, not wait for the perfect system in a year. Too many of my friends are bailing to cable HD or DirectTV. I'm still hanging with Dish, but there is a point they can push me ....

[Martyva]

as far as HDNet, i think 8-24 is still in summer most places (not sure about Arizona) :)

[wmayo]

8-24? Did I miss something? Is that the date when HDNet is announced to be available? Actually, it's usually summer to 9-22 or so. But it sounds like they're still working things out with two vendors for the new dishes - will they really have it all stock and pipelined by then? I really do hope so. I WANT to backtrack based on a good and hot Charlie Chat coming up. I'm hoping for good surprises. So I admit further speculation on my part is silly as we're right up against another "informative" chat.

[rowdymon]

Now, that I think about.... I probably can get by with 3 new 508s if they will be going cheap (the $149 upgrade sounds interesting). The other three DVRs will be in bedrooms and will not need monster hard drives.......

What $149 upgrade are u referring to? Is this a new deal?

[BobaBird]

So, I'm planning on converting my house to house a 921 and 3 510s, and I want to get all of the HD channels I can, while still keeping the ability to see ALL of my local channels. I'm planning on erecting an antenna on the roof to pull in Philly's digital OTA channels which are 45 miles away as the crow flies to feed the 921. Given my situation, how the hell do I make all of this work?

Sorry, for sidetracking you all to deal with MY personal situation, but I want to know what I need to do before I dive into it and leave something out........ To recap, besides the receivers and the Superdish, what else will I need to make this all work (another dish for 61.5?, multiple switches?, etc.)?Sounds like you will need the 105 SuperDISH, a Dish 300 for your minor locals and possibly for HD channels that aren't mirrored on 105 though I suspect they all will be. Each slot will have a DishPro LNBF connected through one DPP44 which apparently won't be ready until at least a few months after the rest of the dish. With a DishPro Plus switch and a DP diplexer, you can feed a dual tuner receiver from a single RG6 feed.i think 8-24 is still in summer most places (not sure about Arizona)I believe it is there too, given the seasons seem to be Summer and January.

Thanks to Dish for taking the time to provide these technical answers (and $0.50 marital counseling!). This is a great way to communicate with the on-line community of active customers and will hopefully become at least a somewhat regular thing.

[BobMurdoch]

So basically if I want CBS-HD I'm SOL? Or are they gonna put it on 105?

Everytime I think I have a grip on what I need the bar keeps moving.

Which is gonna drive me to the bar. <GULP!>

[Jacob S]

Perhaps they should not charge customers the additional outlet fee on some of the receivers if that is what it is going to take to get those channels until they get the right switches out.

[Mike123abc]

I am betting it will be possible to use the swith 64/21 setup like they use in Philly (for 61.5 and 129) to get 61.5 and 105 together until the DPP comes out. They have a 4 satellite configuration that works now, I do not see why it would not continue to work.

[BobaBird]

The response to the first question indicates SuperDISH LNBFs will be DishPro which can't be used with legacy switches. The SW64/SW21 cascade might be possible with legacy LNBFs on the DBS slots and a different LNBF or a destacker on the 105 slot.

[chelsea]

Dish needs to give us the new HD channels now & put it
on 110/119 or 61.5/148, untill the have the plan figured
out, working correctly and equipment available.

With Directv's cheapest non HD ird & dish, you get the
switch included FREE & it will handle HD.

The DP + 4:4 isn't even the correct answer to be
waiting for. We all need 6 dish solutions.

Here's what I'll need to purchase to help invest in
C's technology to help get it up & running.

2 Superdishs
1 DP legacy adapter
1 DP+4:4
2 DPSW21 switch

105+110+119
121+110+119
cascade 61.5
cascade 148
Because you made a large investment you should be glad....

OK I'll share in the costs, but give me some equipment that
will handle ALL of my investment, not 4 solutions, 6!

PS: when do we get the promised 6000 picture in guide
software update?
We'll all stay dedicated and keep waiting, Summer 2004/Q4 04.
Count me in Charlie I'm one of the rare people who
won't quit you for Dave, because I've already made the investment in Dave's equipment. That why you need to serve
the customers who have everthing you've told them to buy.
The others will quit you for Dave. That leaves you with only faithfull
6 solution dedicated waiters, already using Dave as a backup
to what you can't provide.

We're the only breed faithfull, so cater to the ones that will
invest in your crazy technology and give us all SOLUTIONS
from the beginning of Superdish. Figure out how to play
cascade please. Only people who can afford this & that will
stay. I've come this far with you investment wise, count
me in, I promise to wait. Sorry for the negative thread's
Charlie, but my finance's don't get include stock boosts,
like you guys get when you make promise of HDnet &
Superdish in July. Sorry again Charlie for my behavior &
threads, I just thought I'd be watching college football
on Dish in HD this month. Please excuse me threads asking
for what you promised & reminding you how to invent your
switch's. I'm with you guys all the way and I'll pay even
though I can't afford it anymore.
(love your switch's & equuipment Dave)

[Jacob S]

If they put it at the core slots now then it will tick customers off later when they find out that they will have to buy additional hardware such as dishes, switches, etc when what they had worked before at none of that additional cost. Also they probably dont have enough room for all those HD channels on the core slots anyways.

[Jerry G]

If they don't put new HD channels on the existing birds right now, I believe they will upset even more customers today and cause some to leave Dish right away.

[chelsea]

If they don't put new HD channels on the existing birds right now, I believe they will upset even more customers today and cause some to leave Dish right away.
Dear Charlie:
I thought I better hurry & post this immediatly, so you don't lose
anymore customers. Hopefully you guys will act fast.
You better mass produce switchs at the same time your making
dishs.
I know you work with Sanmina-SCI, the producer of your irds.
This part of the operation is based out of Huntsville, Alabama.
You'll need to hire more workers now, to keep from losing
customers to Dave. Perhaps the Alabama members of dbstalk,
could spread the word you need help. I'm willing to pay for
the add in the paper, as part of my investment in Superdish to
help get it up & running and bring my commitment to HD faster.
Your only other choice is do like Dave, the switchs are free
with purchase of a new dish. Anybody producing a superdish
receipt gets the DPswitchs & DP Legacy adapter FREE.
Why can't you mass produce DP 4 & 6 position switchs?
I'm sticking with you all the way Charlie, I won't leave you
in this time of so called crisis & disaray.

[Jerry G]

Dear Charlie:
I thought I better hurry & post this immediatly, so you don't lose
anymore customers. Hopefully you guys will act fast.
You better mass produce switchs at the same time your making
dishs.
I know you work with Sanmina-SCI, the producer of your irds.
This part of the operation is based out of Huntsville, Alabama.
You'll need to hire more workers now, to keep from losing
customers to Dave. Perhaps the Alabama members of dbstalk,
could spread the word you need help. I'm willing to pay for
the add in the paper, as part of my investment in Superdish to
help get it up & running and bring my commitment to HD faster.
Your only other choice is do like Dave, the switchs are free
with purchase of a new dish. Anybody producing a superdish
receipt gets the DPswitchs & DP Legacy adapter FREE.
Why can't you mass produce DP 4 & 6 position switchs?
I'm sticking with you all the way Charlie, I won't leave you
in this time of so called crisis & disaray.

I sure Charlie feels very fortunate to have such strong devotees. I'm sure Charlie will reward you appropriately.

[BobaBird]

The DP + 4:4 isn't even the correct answer to be
waiting for. We all need 6 dish solutions.

Here's what I'll need to purchase to help invest in
C's technology to help get it up & running.

2 Superdishs
1 DP legacy adapter
1 DP+4:4
2 DPSW21 switch

OK I'll share in the costs, but give me some equipment that
will handle ALL of my investment, not 4 solutions, 6!Legacy receivers can be connected directly to the DPP44 if you can get by w/o 61.5 and 148 on that receiver. Are the 2 DP21s for 2 receivers (you'll have to choose a side slot for each one) or were you thinking of trying a double cascade (haven't heard of that being possible even with DishPro switches)?

The need for 6 slots must be pretty rare, but it does exist. Good luck, it took a long enough time to get a 4-slot DP solution.

[palladin]

Does anyone know what the evevation will be for the 105 sat?
Currently my elevation for the 110 sat is about 32 degrees, and
about 28 degrees for the 119 sat. I'm close to the treetops for
the 119 sat and I'm concerned I may not be able to see the 105
to access HDTV when this all comes about. Any info would be
helpful

[sbturner]

I have a 721 and wanted to wire it to an additional TV that has cable already run to it. Questions:
1)It is possible to watch different dish channels on each TV?
2)Is it possible to watch a recorded program on one tv and a live channel on another?
3)If the 721 is on will the other tv be able to watch cable or will it have to watch dish?
4)What will I need to wire it?

[palladin]

To find your specific pointing data, we have to know where you are.....

Go here. http://www.ses-americom.com/tools/lookangle/index.html

Enter "105" in the W. Longitude field (ignore the Satellite field, as Americom has not updated things for the movement of AMC-2 yet.) Select your county or zip code, then calculate.

Thanks for your help. When I tried the website, the look angle
calculator would not open up. I'll give you some info and maybe you can try.
Zip Code 20657 Location, Calvert County Maryland
Thanks again

[Bobby94928]

Thanks for your help. When I tried the website, the look angle
calculator would not open up. I'll give you some info and maybe you can try.
Zip Code 20657 Location, Calvert County Maryland
Thanks again

Az=221.2587
El=36.5444

That's for Lusby, MD.

[palladin]

Az=221.2587
El=36.5444

That's for Lusby, MD.

THATS GREAT NEWS!!!
I'll be able to see the sat.
Thanks Again

[harsh]

I have a 721 and wanted to wire it to an additional TV that has cable already run to it. Questions:

1)It is possible to watch different dish channels on each TV?

The 721 generates one and only one program and sends it through all three outputs (TV, AUX and RF)

2)Is it possible to watch a recorded program on one tv and a live channel on another?

No. See above.

3)If the 721 is on will the other tv be able to watch cable or will it have to watch dish?

No. The 721 must be "turned off" to pass CATV.

4)What will I need to wire it?

You will need to replace the 721 with a 522 (when available) which was designed to do precisely what you're asking for. Wiring should be quite straightforward as you'll simply connect the two cables that currently go to your 721 to the corresponding inputs on the 522 and the TV2 RF out to the second television.

[Mike D-CO5]

I have my 721 run through the s-video jack and the 2 rca audio jacks to my big screen. I also have my vcr with the stand alone Tivo with cable and Directv run through it , going to the line 1 input of my vcr and I have XM sat radio going through my line 2 input of my vcr. I also have the cable tv split and going to the vcr as well so I can watch something else if TIVo is recording something. The output of the vcr is going to the aux inputs on the front of my 721. I also have the digital audio jack through my rca receiver so all the shows upconvert to pcm from the vcr and also the sat channels that come in in dolby digital .

I also have the other 2 rca jacks and video jacks going through the wall to the computer room and it is run to my other 32 inch magnavox tv so I can watch what ever is in the living room while I am on the computer. I have an extra platinum remote for the computer room that is tuned to the same address as my sat receiver in the living room. In the computer room I have the cable split off my road runner internet cable to my other vcr and the sat rca jacks going to the line 1 of the vcr, so I can watch either cable in the computer room or the satellite. I can also watch the stand alone Tivo with cable or Directv because it comes from the 721 output of the Rca jacks.

You ought to see the back of my big screen with all those wires ,talk about a jungle. :grin: :p

[wcswett]

I just noticed that the Star Choice Ku band LNBF is bandstacked like the DishPro DBS LNBF's. It's a California Amplifier model with the following specs:

CALIFORNIA AMPLIFIER* 150478* Stacked LNBF
Input* 11.7 to 12.2 GHz
Output** Vertical polarity = 950 to 1450 MHz,
******* * Horizontal polarity = 1525 to 2025 MHz

Could this be what DISH plans to use for the Ku FSS sats? It's certainly better than re-inventing the wheel. I've actually got one of these I can stick on my AMC-2 dish to try out.

--- WCS

[Jerry G]

I just noticed that the Star Choice Ku band LNBF is bandstacked like the DishPro DBS LNBF's. It's a California Amplifier model with the following specs:

CALIFORNIA AMPLIFIER* 150478* Stacked LNBF
Input* 11.7 to 12.2 GHz
Output** Vertical polarity = 950 to 1450 MHz,
******* * Horizontal polarity = 1525 to 2025 MHz

Could this be what DISH plans to use for the Ku FSS sats? It's certainly better than re-inventing the wheel. I've actually got one of these I can stick on my AMC-2 dish to try out.

--- WCS

Have you been able to get any further on determining if this LNB will work with Dish for 105? I found a dealer that carries it:

http://global-cm.net/stackedSCLNBF.html

I have a Ku dish from the old Unity Motion system. It's about 1 meter in diameter, if I recall correctly. I'm currently using it to get the PBS HD feed from AMC-3. If this LNB will work and fit my dish, I could use it in conjunction with a Dish Pro Dish 500 and 4:3 switch and not need the Superdish. The description of the LNB I found mentions that it's designed for an Offset dish, but I don't think the Unity Motion dish is an offset one, so I don't know if it will work. Any thoughts?

Thanks.