SWiM 16 and DECA install - and some questions

[RCKYMTN]

as always, thanks for the wealth of info on here. I had the swim 16 and deca installed today, and have a couple of issues/questions...

My previous set up was a swm 8 run in parallel with a zinwell wb68 switch. I have 4 dvr's, and h20 (replaced today with an h21), and a legacy receiver to be updated later. Under the previous set up from the swm1/pwr on the swm8, I had a power inserter after a swm splitter to an HR20-100, and the other run to an HR20-700. the swm2 out went to other dvrs, etc.

With the swim-16 the swm1/pwr goes to that same power inserter that is downstream from the splitter, and also feeds the other hr20. the swm2 out on the 16 switch goes to the deca that connects to my router, two drv's and the new h21 (they didn't have any h23's). The h21 is in the same room as my router.

the issues I have are the two hr20's that come from the swm1/pwr out see each other, but I cannot get either one to connect to the internet. They connect to my network, but not the internet, nor do they see the other two drv's that are feed from the swm2 out.

The two hr21's and the h21 that are fed from the swm2 out see each other fine, and connect to the internet fine. Prior to the deca/swim 16 install, I had the drv's networked and connected to the internet fine via some buffalo Ethernet converters.

my questions (that might be the issue for the receivers fed from the swm1/pwr not connecting to the internet or part of the other deca cloud) - should the deca that is powered and connected to my router be fed from the swm1/pwr out on the swim 16, or can be be on the swm2 out on the switch as it is now? not sure if this is causing the problem? Also, does the PI for the deca pass power back to the swim 16 for any reason therefore would need to be in the red power pass on that two way splitter, or does that only power that deca connected to the router?

He used the same power inserter to power the swim 16 that was used to previously power the swm 8 - I assume this is ok, and again, it is after a splitter and from the power pass line from the splitter.

I assume the stop band filters should be attached on the both the swm1 and swm2 outs from the swim 16?

finally, a stop band filter was installed on the hr20-100 that needed its own splitter for the power situation of the hr20-100. it is installed on the sat 2 of the hr20-100. I did not see one installed on the deca first look write up on here, and did not know if that stop band filter was necessary here as well since they are already at the swm1 and swm2 at the swim 16 switch.

The deca works great on the receivers that see each other. I had tried the beta version of MRV with my ethernet converter to my wireless N network, and HD content viewed from another dvr was choppy, and with deca, it all plays fine. Just need to figure out why the two drv's on the swm1 out cannot connect to the internet. I have tried the red button reset, etc, and again, not sure if the deca for the network needs to be on sw1/pwr on the swim 16, or if that is causing the problem.

thanks in advance...

[bobnielsen]

Bandstop filters will block any DECA network traffic. If you put bandstop filters on both SWM1 and SWM2, it will prevent the DECA signal from passing between the two halves. Remove the filters (also the filter on the HR20).

I am running a HR24 plus a HR21, the PI and a DECA connected to my router on the SWM1 port and a H24 on the SWM2 port of my SWM5. I do not have any filters installed and all works fine.

[veryoldschool]

This is how your HR20-100 should look:
21882

As you can see, there is now a filter used.

[hdtvfan0001]

This is how your HR20-100 should look:
21755
As you can see, there is no filter used.
Thanks VOS - I was about to respond and try to verbalize that same information, but your picture provided a much better thousands words of excellent "how to". ;)

[webby_s]

As Bob has said, take off those band stops and then all the recievers will see eachother. That's was one of the major points of the SWM-16! To talk to all the recievers at once!

[habudab]

where did you get the SWM-16

[veryoldschool]

where did you get the SWM-16
The OP is in one of the 4 test markets

[harsh]

where did you get the SWM-16Perhaps they are being offered in the MRV test markets.

[sigma1914]

This is how your HR20-100 should look:
21755
As you can see, there is no filter used.

Why's there a splitter and 2 lines into the sat inputs? I thought DECA was SWM, so only 1 sat in line?

[matt]

Why's there a splitter and 2 lines into the sat inputs? I thought DECA was SWM, so only 1 sat in line?

The HR20-100 doesn't supply enough power out of just one output for the DECA is my understanding.

EDIT: Here it is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2420216#post2420216

[webby_s]

Why's there a splitter and 2 lines into the sat inputs? I thought DECA was SWM, so only 1 sat in line?

The HR20-100 doesn't supply enough power out of just one output for the DECA is my understanding.

EDIT: Here it is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2420216#post2420216

Right, it has nothing to do with needing two inputs for the reciever it has to do with the DECA. It's still needs just the one SWM input for the signal.

And I want one of those SWM16's!!! ;) :D

[sigma1914]

The HR20-100 doesn't supply enough power out of just one output for the DECA is my understanding.

EDIT: Here it is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2420216#post2420216

Right, it has nothing to do with needing two inputs for the reciever it has to do with the DECA. It's still needs just the one SWM input for the signal.

And I want one of those SWM16's!!! ;) :D

Thanks guys. Is it only the 20-100 that needs 2? I have 2 HR20-700s.

[veryoldschool]

Thanks guys. Is it only the 20-100 that needs 2? I have 2 HR20-700s.
Yes only the HR20-100 can't supply the DC power to the DECA out SAT1.

[RCKYMTN]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. tonight I removed all the stop band filters that were on the swim 16 outputs, as well as the one that was on the hr20.

I also moved the line for the network/router deca to be on swm1 out, rather than the swm2 out - not sure if that did anything as I did not check the system after removing the stop band filters., but it worked great.

each dvr can see each other. two dvr's are out of each the swm1 and swm2, as well as the h21 out of swm1, and the h21 sees all four dvrs. HD content plays great, unlike the choppy play on my wireless N network before.

one other question - the max number of tuners on each output port on the swim 16 is limited to 8 each, correct? Does the deca that is installed to the router count as one of those tuners, so which ever output on the swim 16 the router/deca is installed would be limited to 7 actual tuners, is that correct?

Also, what are the stop band filters used for anyway or why needed since they appeared to be causing my issues?

Thanks again, very much appreciated...... so far after the suggested fixes and some brief viewing, the swim 16 and deca seems to be working great, and the cross connect between the two outputs on the swim 16 allow all dvrs to see each other.

[veryoldschool]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. tonight I removed all the stop band filters that were on the swim 16 outputs, as well as the one that was on the hr20.

I also moved the line for the network/router deca to be on swm1 out, rather than the swm2 out - not sure if that did anything as I did not check the system after removing the stop band filters., but it worked great.

each dvr can see each other. two dvr's are out of each the swm1 and swm2, as well as the h21 out of swm1, and the h21 sees all four dvrs. HD content plays great, unlike the choppy play on my wireless N network before.

one other question - the max number of tuners on each output port on the swim 16 is limited to 8 each, correct? Does the deca that is installed to the router count as one of those tuners, so which ever output on the swim 16 the router/deca is installed would be limited to 7 actual tuners, is that correct?

Also, what are the stop band filters used for anyway or why needed since they appeared to be causing my issues?

Thanks again, very much appreciated...... so far after the suggested fixes and some brief viewing, the swim 16 and deca seems to be working great, and the cross connect between the two outputs on the swim 16 allow all dvrs to see each other.
DECA doesn't "count" as a tuner since it's simply another item the needs the SWiM system to free up the frequencies it uses.
The Bandstop filters are for either receiver without networking/DECA or SWiMs that aren't modified for DECA.
Your SWiM16 was made for DECA and has a green sticker indicating such.
The installer(s) simply weren't completely up to speed on their training.

[codespy]

I like the black HR20-100 as opposed to my silver one......wanna trade or should I just go buy a bottle of spray paint?

[webby_s]

I like the black HR20-100 as opposed to my silver one......wanna trade or should I just go buy a bottle of spray paint?

Is it owned? :D

[codespy]

Is it owned? :D

About as much as I thought we owned Favre!

[RCKYMTN]

the deca/swim 16 has for the most part been working great, but have a couple of follow up questions -

my router seems to disconnect from the internet about once a day, and I have to unplug it and let it reboot to connect to the internet again. This seems to have occurred after the deca install, or it might be just a coincidence and that I have something else wrong with my router? For the deca install, we just plugged the Ethernet cable into the router - would there be any other settings for my router I should change or look at that might be the cause of the disconnect problem? Again, not sure if anything to do with the deca, but have noticed the issue after the install.

Also, the installer mentioned a phone line(s) were no longer needed with deca. I keep reading different things on this so a little confused. Prior to deca, I needed the line to order ppv via the receiver, is that not the case anymore with deca? No phone line needed with deca to order ppv, etc? I realize that a phone line is needed at each receiver to get caller id at that receiver? I just read that a phone line for a swm set up needs to be at least at the "primary" receiver? What is the "primary" receiver, the one with the PI connected to it, or the one with the deca adapter that goes to my router., and what would that one phone line provide?

thanks for any suggestions...

[veryoldschool]

I'd guess it's the router, since I don't need to reboot mine with my DECA, but before I changed routers my old one would need a reboot maybe once a week.

Primary receiver is the first receiver on your account. You bill might show you that, or the CRS can tell you which it is.

Right with an internet connection, you don't need a phoneline for PPV.
These days it's just for caller ID.

[thorkuhn]

This is how your HR20-100 should look:
21755
As you can see, there is no filter used.

As of last week installers have been instructed to install a Band Stop Filter on HR20-100 for SAT 1 to block the DECA signal from causing Issues with the Tuner, most commonly seen with random pixel/freeze framing. Sorry don't have the a shiny picture that shows the new setup but you put the splitter before the DECA not after.

[veryoldschool]

As of last week installers have been instructed to install a Band Stop Filter on HR20-100 for SAT 1 to block the DECA signal from causing Issues with the Tuner, most commonly seen with random pixel/freeze framing. Sorry don't have the a shiny picture that shows the new setup but you put the splitter before the DECA not after.
Putting a bandstop filter between the SAT 1 and the DECA does NOTHING, since the DECA "taps" out the signal.
If you used the splitter BEFORE the DECA, then it would need/want the bandstop filter on the SAT #1.

If you follow the image layout from the installer's guide, it isn't needed.

"Basically" whoever is telling you to install the filter doesn't really know.
"For the same [wrong] reason, you would also need to use the filter on ALL receivers with the DECA adapter, which isn't correct.
I've been testing these from before they were released.

[thorkuhn]

Putting a bandstop filter between the SAT 1 and the DECA does NOTHING, since the DECA "taps" out the signal.
If you used the splitter BEFORE the DECA, then it would need/want the bandstop filter on the SAT #1.

If you follow the image layout from the installer's guide, it isn't needed.

Mostly I was posting to explain why the Tech installed it that way. He would have been instructed to do so. I agree it shouldn't matter, you don't need one on any other IRD, why would the power situation with the HR20-100 change that? But after numerous issue with pixel\Freeze Framing, the powers to be have told us this is the "solution".

[RCKYMTN]

I'd guess it's the router, since I don't need to reboot mine with my DECA, but before I changed routers my old one would need a reboot maybe once a week.

Primary receiver is the first receiver on your account. You bill might show you that, or the CRS can tell you which it is.

Right with an internet connection, you don't need a phoneline for PPV.
These days it's just for caller ID.

thanks VOS - I might try a different router at some point and see if that might fix it if it becomes a recurring problem.

Re. the band stop filters that the installer put on the output on the swim 16 and on the hr-20 after the deca adapter into sat1 on the receiver, I could not get two receivers to connect to the internet with them on. As suggested above, once I took them off both the switch and the hr20, I connected no problem at all to the internet, and have not had any issues on the hr20 which is now set up per your photo above with the splitter, etc. I do wish mine was black though too instead of silver :D

edit - I just checked again how he installed it with your photo - the splitter is before the deca adapter, and seems to be working ok?

[veryoldschool]

thanks VOS - I might try a different router at some point and see if that might fix it if it becomes a recurring problem.

Re. the band stop filters that the installer put on the output on the swim 16 and on the hr-20 after the deca adapter into sat1 on the receiver, I could not get two receivers to connect to the internet with them on. As suggested above, once I took them off both the switch and the hr20, I connected no problem at all to the internet, and have not had any issues on the hr20 which is now set up per your photo above with the splitter, etc. I do wish mine was black though too instead of silver :D
The installer should have never mounted bandstop filters on the SWiM16, since as you know, they block the DECA networking through the SWiM16, and any filters needed are already inside the SWiM16.
The picture is only for the HR20-100, which now shows the bandstop filter .
The HR20-700 doesn't need them or the splitter, or any other HR2x.
They're called a "bandstop" filter for a reason: they block the DECA band. :lol:

[RCKYMTN]

right, that one receiver is an hr20-100, where I had taken off the filter - he still had the splitter before the deca., I'm going to go change it now to the splitter after the deca per your photo. hmm, maybe the cause of my router disconnecting from the internet? does the red power pass out on the splitter need to go to sat 2 on the receiver since it is supplying power, or does it matter?

thanks

[veryoldschool]

right, that one receiver is an hr20-100, where I had taken off the filter - he still had the splitter before the deca., I'm going to go change it now to the splitter after the deca per your photo. hmm, maybe the cause of my router disconnecting from the internet? does the red power pass out on the splitter need to go to sat 2 on the receiver since it is supplying power, or does it matter?

thanks
Still think the router/internet is "something else".

The power passing port needs to connect to SAT #2 for the DC to then power the DECA.

[RCKYMTN]

interesting, I also noticed that the deca was installed on the sat 2, and the power side from the splitter going to sat 1.

I put the splitter before the deca, and the power pass coax into sat 2 on the receiver, and the deca side to sat 1.

[veryoldschool]

SAT #2 -- DC --> |
SAT #1 --filter -> | Splitter ---> DECA --> SWiM

[HoTat2]

... I am running a HR24 plus a HR21, the PI and a DECA connected to my router on the SWM1 port and a H24 on the SWM2 port of my SWM5. I do not have any filters installed and all works fine.

A "SWM5?" :confused:

Or is this just a mistake?

[veryoldschool]

A "SWM5?" :confused:

Or is this just a mistake?
There were SWM5s before the SWM8 came out and were used in some test markets, but these never got any farther.

[HoTat2]

There were SWM5s before the SWM8 came out and were used in some test markets, but these never got any farther.

Well I know that VOS, but built for DECA was my question? As Bob said he needed no filters in his set-up.

[veryoldschool]

Well I know that VOS, but built for DECA was my question? As Bob said he needed no filters in his set-up.
Part of DECA testing was to try them with & without filters [and I didn't see any problems without].
The SWM5 doesn't have any green stickers or filters for DECA.

[HoTat2]

Part of DECA testing was to try them with & without filters [and I didn't see any problems without].
The SWM5 doesn't have any green stickers or filters for DECA.

Oh OK;

But I also thought the SWM 1 and 2 ports were not internally bridged for DECA traffic on the SWM-5/8 modules like the SWM-16 is. Unless Bob has some type of external one installed between the two output lines.

[veryoldschool]

Oh OK;

But I also thought the SWM 1 and 2 ports were not internally bridged for DECA traffic on the SWM-5/8 modules like the SWM-16 is. Unless Bob has some type of external one installed between the two output lines.
[data points]
Both SWM 1 & 2 are "merely" outputs of a 2-way splitter, with SWM 1 being the power passing leg.
The SWiM-16 is two SWM8s with a single output for each. These need/have the internal DECA bridging between the two.
Filters are used to block the DECA from the internal SWM circuits.
All SWiMs with the green stickers/labels have the blocking filter(s) added internally.

[slimoli]

I live in a MFH2 MDU building and wonder if I will be able to install a DECA system myself. I have 1 SWM8 just for my unit (nobodyelse sharing it), do I still need the filter ? If I don't, all the work can be done inside my unit and will be much easier. I can't access the SWM8 and the original splitter, only the MDU guys can. I know how to do the installation at the receivers and router but the filter can be a problem .

Thanks.

[bobnielsen]

VOS is correct. My SWM5 is a field test unit. Without any filtering, the DECA signal couples between ports SWM1 and SWM2, just as it would with an external splitter. I haven't seen any reports indicating that there actually are issues if a filter is not used but I expect that there may be problems in some cases, hence filters are "required".

[veryoldschool]

I live in a MFH2 MDU building and wonder if I will be able to install a DECA system myself. I have 1 SWM8 just for my unit (nobodyelse sharing it), do I still need the filter ? If I don't, all the work can be done inside my unit and will be much easier. I can't access the SWM8 and the original splitter, only the MDU guys can. I know how to do the installation at the receivers and router but the filter can be a problem .

Thanks.
First off, even getting DECA hardware may be your problem. It doesn't look like these will ever become a DIY install.
If you do get/have DECA installed, the filter can be mounted and the POE [point of entry] to your unit.

[veryoldschool]

As of last week installers have been instructed to install a Band Stop Filter on HR20-100 for SAT 1 to block the DECA signal from causing Issues with the Tuner, most commonly seen with random pixel/freeze framing. Sorry don't have the a shiny picture that shows the new setup but you put the splitter before the DECA not after.

Mostly I was posting to explain why the Tech installed it that way. He would have been instructed to do so. I agree it shouldn't matter, you don't need one on any other IRD, why would the power situation with the HR20-100 change that? But after numerous issue with pixel\Freeze Framing, the powers to be have told us this is the "solution".I should change my earlier posts.
Today I was also updated as to this latest change for the HR20-100.
Currently it seems the SAT tuner in the HR20-100 looks to be very susceptible to sideband "garbage" from the DECA signal. The bandstop filter is wider than the DECA adapters, which means without the added filter, signals from other DECAs won't be completely trapped/blocked by the DECA on the HR20-100. Adding the bandstop filter after the DECA seems to be another work-around needed to block these sidebands from interacting with the tuner in the HR20-100.


thorkuhn

you were simply ahead of my "learning curve"

[HoTat2]

VOS is correct. My SWM5 is a field test unit. Without any filtering, the DECA signal couples between ports SWM1 and SWM2, just as it would with an external splitter. I haven't seen any reports indicating that there actually are issues if a filter is not used but I expect that there may be problems in some cases, hence filters are "required".

Alright;

Though I'm a little curious and confused with your DECA networking you mention here, how do the MoCA adapters running over your OTA cabling you once mentioned here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2396901#post2396901

actually connect the HR21 to the DECA cloud?

[bobnielsen]

Alright;

Though I'm a little curious and confused with your DECA networking you mention here, how do the MoCA adapters running over your OTA cabling you once mentioned here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2396901#post2396901

actually connect the HR21 to the DECA cloud?

One adapter was connected to the HR21 and the other to my router (so it wasn't actually part of the cloud). I ran into some issues with the MoCA adapters and moved some things around (see the link in my signature for the current setup). I suspect that one of the Actiontec MoCA adapters has gone bad but need to do some tests to confirm that. If/when individual DECA adapters are available, I may pick one up and move the HR21 to the bedroom location again.