Is AMC-2 (105) and SuperDish a BUST?

[Mike123abc]

I have mentioned in other threads my thoughts on this, now I pose the question to people that are monitoring 105 at this time (people with FTA recievers and such).

After watching Charlie Chat, I noticed that he is now saying 121 will be locals and HDTV... Wait a minute last tech chat they said 105 was locals and HDTV with 121 being international.

What has changed:

1. AMC-2 has made it over to 105 so they could start testing it.
2. E9 made it up without blowing up and hopefully will make it to 121 safely in short order.

What is known:
1. AMC-2 is 60 watts/transponder (AMC-15 next year will be about 120 or so I believe)
2. E9 is 120watts/transponder last I saw.

Could it be that AMC-2 is too weak for 8PSK (i.e. you would need a 1.5+ meter dis)?

Could it be that AMC-2 is too weak for SuperDish even with QPSK?

Can anyone give indications of strength of AMC-2 vs E3 at 61.5 with a 1 meter dish? Since E3 at 61.5 is about as powerful as E9 will be and AMC-15. We know 8PSK works at 110watts/transponder as demonstrated by E3.

My current thoughts are that they will move all HDTV off of the wings and on to 121. Run 121 at 8PSK for most transponders and do QPSK for the LIL. 148/61.5 will go all international until 105 is up. Then of course I do not know what they will do with the wings (sell? use for LIL HDTV?)

[Ken_F]

It's also possible they mispoke. Or they simply want to make sure 121 is operational for locals before committing significant capacity at 105 to HD. It's also possible they had 121 in mind for HD all along, but weren't sure when they'd launch E*9 or whether it would be successful, so they did not want to create a PR incident if something went wrong or if launch was delayed.

Otherwise, what you mentioned are certainly possibilities.

[JohnH]

They do not need 8PSK with AMC 2. They are currently running tests with SR 26000 FEC 2/3 and not at full power. At least I have seen higher power levels there since it arrived.

That SuperDISH they showed on the Chat appeared to be a 105 version?

[Mike123abc]

The one on the tech chat looked like the 105 version (extra LNB was on the 110 side), the one on the Charlie chat looked like the 121 version (extra LNB was on the 119 side).

How strong a signal are you seeing with the 2/3 FEC at SR26000?

[Jacob S]

I thought they were originally going to have the locals at 121. Thats what I recalled being said before then someone mentioned 105 and thought 'that' was mispoken, now people think when they are saying 121 'that is what is being mispoken. Nothing was officially announced before on which slot the locals, HD, and internationals would come from was it? I am sure they would rather use 121 it being new instead of an old satellite at 105 in which may die or something go wrong there until the other one gets launched there next year.

[Jim Parker]

I, for one, hope that HD is put on 121. 105 and 110 are below the mountains for me. If HD is not on 121, then I (and everybody else in Alaska) am totally screwed. :mad:

Does anybody have any good reasons why 105 should carry HD instead of 121? Sounds to me like 121 would give us the better signal.

[Ken_F]

I wouldn't read too much into the fact(?) that they had a 121 Superdish on display. They probably used whatever they had on hand or whatever was most accessible. Setting up the stage, etc is probably done by interns and that sort of thing, or so that's what I would expect.

Again, Charlie could have mispoken.

[Ken_F]

They do not need 8PSK with AMC 2. They are currently running tests with SR 26000 FEC 2/3 and not at full power. At least I have seen higher power levels there since it arrived.I guess that translates into 31.95Mbps after R/S? That doesn't seem like much for a 36MHz transponder; it's comparable to what DirecTV is getting at 110 with 27MHz DBS transponders (FEC 6/7). That also means two HDTV channels per transponder would require a channel squeeze (with stat mux) very much like that currently seen on DirecTV, if not slightly worse.

Let's hope they can get at least FEC 3/4 out of AMC-2 for 35.94 Mbps. If they can't, we'd better hope they use 121 instead, as otherwise Dish will probably have no choice but to revert to the same "reduced quality" HDTV seen on DirecTV. Right now, Dish's somewhat better HD quality (which will only become more obvious as display technologies improve) is the only advantage they have over DirecTV, and it--along with the promise of the 921 and a superior HD offering--is the only thing keeping many enthusiasts from switching providers.

By comparison, Dish currently gets 39.63Mbps at 61.5 with 8PSK @ 2/3 (SR 21500), more than enough to fit two full bitrate HDTV channels without extra compression. Presumably, they will be able to get at least this much from E*IX at 121 degrees, as it is spec'd at slightly higher power than E*III at 61.5.

[JohnH]

The original notice for 121 indicated it would be used for International and it would be a separate service. Data from 105 indicates that may not necessarilly be the case. One thing is sure, that will be one humongous bunch of channels for one receiver to handle.

If that was a 121 SuperDISH the extra LNBF looked like a DBS LNBF and was too far away from the others for the 2 degree spacing. Looked more like 9 degree spacing. Pictures from the Team Summit showed the Ku-FSS being integrated in the larger assemply with one(or 2) DBS LNBF to get the closeness needed for the 5 degree spacing.

Transponders on 121 are reported to be 32 in number. That would be 27 mhz variety.

[dmodemd]

I interpreted Charlie's statements to mean that with Echostar 9 they now have the additional capacity to provide things like HD... I didn't really hear him say specifically that HD would be almost exclusively on 121... and if he did I wouldnt be surprised if he was mistaken, he's been wrong about a lot before (like the 8PSK pricing, etc...). He was also severely jet-lagged ;)

[JohnH]

This is the one I was referring to:

http://www.dishretailer.com/ts2003/4/MVC-009S.JPG

The others all appear to be mockups with Circular units in all 3 positions.

[Jacob S]

Maybe they find it better to provide the HD content from 121 if that slot will work a lot better for Alaska and/or Hawaii.

[Chris Freeland]

Or 157?

We really don't know what Dish is planning, even when company representatives make statements of fact on Tech Chats or Charlie Chats....

It's all, at best, educated guesses....

That would make a lot of since, since some HD channels are already on 148, plus E* owns 32 frequencies at 148 and 3 more at 157, compared to only 11 owned and 6 leased at 61.5. Their should be plenty of room between 148 and 157 to provide the whole ATHD package and other HDTV channels to AK and HI. Either the 121 or the 105 SuperDish would provide HDTV for the lower 48.

I do not know weather Charlie goofed on his 121 statement on Monday night or if their has ben a change of plans, however it seams to me that it would make more since to use 121 for HDTV and new locals and save 105 for new International's and perhaps even more locals. If their is a problem with AMC2 doing HDTV with a SuperDish, E* could go ahead and place additional International channels their and just require a larger and separate dish for those until AMC15 is up and then switch to the 105 SuperDish.

[Ken_F]

fvc,

Echostar requested and was granted authority to use three transponders at 157. The remaining 29 will be auctioned.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-03-1510A1.pdf

[Jacob S]

I would think that Dish would want all of its HD programming all at one slot for everyone to view so they would not have to duplicate to those on the east coast and west coast plus its a one dish solution.

[Chris Freeland]

I would think that Dish would want all of its HD programming all at one slot for everyone to view so they would not have to duplicate to those on the east coast and west coast plus its a one dish solution.

Sure E* would prefer to have all HD available on the same satellite for all 50 states, but it might not be possible to reach AK or HI with the SuperDish from 121 or 105. Who knows for sure except possibly the E* engineers ;) .

[wcswett]

The fact remains that the Tech Talk guys clearly stated HD on 105, and Charlie mumbled something about HD on 121. Also at the Team Summit, all the reported conversations were about 105. And Dish has signed a contract with SES Americom leasing (an unspecified number of) transponders on AMC-15 (which will be at 105 after launch next year) and providing for testing to take place using AMC-2 (currently at 105...) All of which suggests to me that Dish is changing their plans as they work out the details... Not a bad thng necessarily....

My impression is that testing on AMC-2 is in hiatus pending a check-out of Echo-9/Telstar-13. There has been no change on AMC-2 (105W) since last Friday... still three "Technical Difficulties" cards up on TP's 7, 17 and 18 and that's all. It would be nice to know if E* checked out the 105 superdish while the ten local channels were up there and what they found.

For whomever asked, I get a signal strength of 80 and a signal quality of 98 on my FTA receiver for all three TP's in clear weather with a 90 cm. dish. These numbers don't equate to any dish receiver numbers, so I'm very much looking forward to a software update from E* so I can check it on a 6000.

--- WCS